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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:55:44
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| Also, you need to remember that there exist some relatively simple spells (4-7th level) that allow the stealing of years, in some cases A LOT of years. This means that the creation of a longevity/youth potion would need to be as reasonable as using any of these other means or else no one would choose that path. For those about to yell stealing years is evil, remember that using such spells as offensive weapons against evil enemies is does not put one's alignment at risk any more than cutting their heads off in execution or binding their souls does. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 14:06:17
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Again, the blood (or other body part) of a long-lived creature might be an ingredient of the potion without needing to kill or even harm the creature. There are numerous (non-Chosen) Good-aligned characters in the Realms who make use of longevity, and it seems very unlikely they'd sustain their lifespans with potions that require ingredients derived from things like boiling human babies.
A dragon might be convinced to bleed enough to fill a tiny vial, hardly a loss of even 1 hit point. But only in return for some kind of payment - a vast sum of wealth, valuable magical spell(s) or item(s), some quest or service, some kind of real power. A "super-intelligent" magic-using dragon might well understand exactly how its blood would be used and how precious a few more years would be to most humans. It might also need to be convinced that its blood would not be used as a component in some kind of magic, spell, or ritual which could somehow harm or manipulate it.
The more direct and less friendly approach is to attack the dragon, wounding it enough to spill blood. Killing the dragon wouldn't be necessary, though surviving the dragon would be.
Maybe any random elf street urchin will happily sell a pint of blood for some silvers, especially if told it'll be used for "healing" purposes. Maybe an elven hero will voluntarily offer blood and life to his allies, requiring no more than their continued friendship and heroic deeds.
I suppose the "blood" of any big old tree might work. Or a treant. Or a druid. But then, it's an "exotic" ingredient in a magical/alchemical formula - the blood alone might not be good enough unless it meets other symbolic or metaphorical conditions, is freely given, is of noblest lineage, is spilled by a mithril blade wielded in moonlight, is blessed by the high priest of Lebolas, whatever. It seems like it should somehow be the blood of world/magic, somehow connected to the Weave. I agree the ingredient should be "fantastic" but not "impossible" to obtain, and more easily accessible by epic heroes (even fighters and thieves!) than by mere NPC-stat commoners. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2018 14:20:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 20:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Also, you need to remember that there exist some relatively simple spells (4-7th level) that allow the stealing of years, in some cases A LOT of years. This means that the creation of a longevity/youth potion would need to be as reasonable as using any of these other means or else no one would choose that path. For those about to yell stealing years is evil, remember that using such spells as offensive weapons against evil enemies is does not put one's alignment at risk any more than cutting their heads off in execution or binding their souls does.
On this subject, yeah, potion of longevity is practically useless in 5e for wizards who can clone themselves. I still say there should be some kind of drawback for that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 21:02:41
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| The only drawbacks are the clone animosity / remote possibility of magic jar failure and permadeath. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 16:01:55
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"Permadeath" is already a constant "drawback" to anyone who dies from aging (or from other causes).
So there's really nothing to lose by following a flawed or risky road towards longevity. A chance of success along with a chance of failure is still better than the alternative.
Longevity potions/elixirs obviously have limits, if they were too easily obtained and had no "drawbacks" then other options (like liching) wouldn't be as common. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 17:06:11
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One of the adventure hooks I had an idea for was a potion that reversed aging -- but it worked a little too well...
Lady Lyrina’s wish for restored youth has become a nightmare.
Lyrina, the daughter of an expatriate Cormyrian nobleman, was once considered to be one of the most beautiful women in the city of Elturel. Many were the men that vied for her hand, but it was the wily merchant Danrel Greyves that won her heart. The two were wed, and lived happily together for more than four decades. During that time, their wealth grew steadily. At the time of his unfortunate death in a warehouse fire, nearly five years ago, Danrel had become one of Elturel’s wealthiest merchants.
Lady Lyrina grieved for her lost husband for three years. She neglected his businesses and even her own home; were it not for the skill of loyal retainers, much of Danrel’s wealth would have been lost in the years following his death. When she finally chose to shake off her black emotions, she resumed control of Danrel’s mercantile interests, and gradually started increasing her inherited wealth once more.
A chance remark from a friend gave Lyrina a new desire: she would find a way to reclaim her lost youth. She searched for almost two years, before buying a potion from a disreputable and somewhat sinister trader. The trader, one Dulgan of Mulmaster, was known to have many questionable associates and business practices, but stayed in business because he was careful to avoid breaking any laws, and was always true to the letter of any agreement – though rarely to the spirit of that agreement.
Dulgan assured the Lady Lyrina that the potion would restore her youth, though he mentioned her restored vigor might be accompanied by “one or two minor, unforeseen effects.” Against the recommendations of her friends and retainers, Lyrina downed the potion. Within minutes, she began feeling the energy of the potion moving through her tingling limbs. Before an hour had passed, Lady Lyrina had regained the remarkable beauty she’d been known for when less than thirty summers of age.
However, in the months since, Lyrina has realized the potion is continuing to work, albeit more slowly. It took her several months to see the changes, but she has since determined that for every month that passes, she is physically becoming a year younger. If the potion’s effects continue, within a year she will once more be an adolescent, and a year after that, she’ll be a newborn infant. What will happen then is unknown, but the possibilities are very frightening.
Lady Lyrina’s agents have attempted to contact Dulgan, but he is rumored to be in distant Amn. The PCs are hired to prevent Lady Lyrina from becoming any younger. It is recommended that they seek out Dulgan, but if they can arrest Lyrina’s age regression on their own, they are free to do whatever it takes. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 19:34:44
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@Wooly - love that plothook. very flavorful and Realmsian. 
First off, I agree that 'any small amount' should work (with degrees dependent upon the amounts used). However, this also needs drawbacks, because then you'd have down-on-their-luck elves lining up at the local bloodbank, and the whole thing becomes a bit of a joke. My suggestion here is that the magic of the potion literally steals the years from the blood-giver, so while some may still be desperate enough to do this a few times (and dragons are practically immortal), they wouldn't consider doing this on a daily basis, like a diabetic pricking their finger.
So then we get into the "its TOO hard again" argument. GOOD... it should be. Its supposed to be HARD to live longer! That's why Mages resort to lichdom - if stretching one's lifespan was simple, everyone would be doing it. Even peasants would be saving their coppers for that one little chance they can squeeze-out a few more years. On the other hand, in a world where Gods are real, that might not be as important.
As for the Clone spell - lets think about this realistically. Would YOU do it? Honestly? Thats NOT really you. Thats a totally different person with your memories, etc. The 'you' that is 'you' still dies. Would you risk that? The very fact that clones can wake prematurely puts the lie to them actually being the same person. They're not. And what if someone wants a newer, younger 'you'? What if a King & Queen clone themselves very early on, and when the King is in his fifties, he decides to kill his aging wife because he recalls how much hotter she was when she was younger? Just tell the clone, "You had an accident". And what about the King? He's getting in his dotterage, and his councilors remember the old days when he was a manly, powerful leader that everyone listened to. One that could keep the kingdom united against its enemies. Now he's a withered old husk... would not the councilors be tempted to off the old King so King 2.0 wakes up? NOPE, clones are more of a danger than a solution. The moment you make one, people know they can easily replace you. And its NOT really you. Never fool yourself into thinking it is. Truly wise mages know this.
So yeah, longevity magic should be a DM special, and should be extremely rare and hard to do, otherwise you'd get a setting where 'the elite' (anyone with an adequate bank-account) would be living forever, and the rest would be just 'poor peons not worth extra life'. In fact, there's your plot for a great near-future horror story. The Elite 'farm' the chattel like vampires, because they use their blood to extend their own lives. On the other hand, it would make an excellent McGuffin to use old lore (1e/2e and even 3e) in a 5e setting. No need to explain why all the same people still work at that Inn a 120 years later - they found a secret stash of potions in the cellar. For the 'story' of FR (the canon), I wouldn't go anywhere near that. As a DM, I would use the hell out of it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2018 19:41:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 04:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - love that plothook. very flavorful and Realmsian.
Thank you; it is appreciated.
There's a nation in the Pathfinder setting that is built around the trade of an elixir that temporarily stops the aging process. It doesn't reverse again or restore lost youth -- it just stops the clock for 1d4 years, with no side effects.
The thing is, it's based on a particular, very hard to find flower, and only one person knows how to make it -- so every year, only 7 vials of the stuff are made, and one of those is drunk by the guy making them.
The nation's economy is built around the sale of those other 6 vials. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 10:14:02
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the sun orchid elixir.....
yep made in the citadel of the alchemist in Thuvia in the continent of Garund along the innersea region of golarion the world of PAthfinder. made once a year as wooly said and sold in a different city each year in order to prevent highway robbers and thugs. well I shouldhave said auctioned, and if you dont win a bottle, you dont keep your belongings either...
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 11:54:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The only drawbacks are the clone animosity / remote possibility of magic jar failure and permadeath.
Not a problem in 5e really, because if you're looking to get younger, you wouldn't be leaving this body waiting around. The second its cooked, its kill yourself and come on young body. That's why I specified that in 5e, the potion of longevity becomes fairly useless IF someone can make a clone or have a clone made of themselves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 12:07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - love that plothook. very flavorful and Realmsian.
First off, I agree that 'any small amount' should work (with degrees dependent upon the amounts used). However, this also needs drawbacks, because then you'd have down-on-their-luck elves lining up at the local bloodbank, and the whole thing becomes a bit of a joke. My suggestion here is that the magic of the potion literally steals the years from the blood-giver, so while some may still be desperate enough to do this a few times (and dragons are practically immortal), they wouldn't consider doing this on a daily basis, like a diabetic pricking their finger.
So then we get into the "its TOO hard again" argument. GOOD... it should be. Its supposed to be HARD to live longer! That's why Mages resort to lichdom - if stretching one's lifespan was simple, everyone would be doing it. Even peasants would be saving their coppers for that one little chance they can squeeze-out a few more years. On the other hand, in a world where Gods are real, that might not be as important.
As for the Clone spell - lets think about this realistically. Would YOU do it? Honestly? Thats NOT really you. Thats a totally different person with your memories, etc. The 'you' that is 'you' still dies. Would you risk that? The very fact that clones can wake prematurely puts the lie to them actually being the same person. They're not. And what if someone wants a newer, younger 'you'? What if a King & Queen clone themselves very early on, and when the King is in his fifties, he decides to kill his aging wife because he recalls how much hotter she was when she was younger? Just tell the clone, "You had an accident". And what about the King? He's getting in his dotterage, and his councilors remember the old days when he was a manly, powerful leader that everyone listened to. One that could keep the kingdom united against its enemies. Now he's a withered old husk... would not the councilors be tempted to off the old King so King 2.0 wakes up? NOPE, clones are more of a danger than a solution. The moment you make one, people know they can easily replace you. And its NOT really you. Never fool yourself into thinking it is. Truly wise mages know this.
So yeah, longevity magic should be a DM special, and should be extremely rare and hard to do, otherwise you'd get a setting where 'the elite' (anyone with an adequate bank-account) would be living forever, and the rest would be just 'poor peons not worth extra life'. In fact, there's your plot for a great near-future horror story. The Elite 'farm' the chattel like vampires, because they use their blood to extend their own lives. On the other hand, it would make an excellent McGuffin to use old lore (1e/2e and even 3e) in a 5e setting. No need to explain why all the same people still work at that Inn a 120 years later - they found a secret stash of potions in the cellar. For the 'story' of FR (the canon), I wouldn't go anywhere near that. As a DM, I would use the hell out of it.
On the clone piece, not as written in 5e. Its why I specifically bring up that spell and that version... and its also why I say it really needs a rewrite. Its broken. Essentially, they specify that the old soul flows into the new body and that the old flesh is now useless for any kind of magic that returns it to life. Given that people will have met people who have come back as clones, the society at large might be as accepting of this idea as something like turning into a lich or a ghost or transferring their body into a golem. In fact, I'd be most would favor this concept (I'm still my old self, but even younger... not some stinky pile of bones.)
Now, at the same time, I'm using a twist on this rule in my own work for Lauzoril where I have a god of necromancy who effectively twins a soul of someone living to awaken a clone. However, that becomes god Shenanigans with a god whose portolios "kind of" mirror these weird possibilities. I want to come up with some weird implications to this, but honestly I haven't set my mind to it yet. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Potions of Longevity
