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Mi-Go
Acolyte
Finland
10 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 09:30:04
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Can anyone point me towards a source where this might be discussed?
In the FR wiki I noticed a strange absence of information in that trolls are said to worship Vaprak the Destroyer, who physically has aspects of both troll and ogres but officially Vaprak is only the god of ogres and he is not mentioned to have sired the trolls.
Do we know where they came from and who put them there? Why have trolls moved away from their creator and worship a different god?
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 09:34:10
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Vaprak is a demon who they worship anyhow - not a creator god of anything.
I would bet humans created trolls. Just seems like the right amount of stupid :P |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 12:26:15
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Naturally, trolls believe the opposite.
They think Vaprak created the other Gods and thus other creatures, just so the trolls could eat them.
The Giants in the Ordnung think they are the result of Othea's affair with Vaprak, and a further degeneration of giant-kin, even lower than Ogres on the Ordnung scale.
I think besides the myth that trolls are the result of an ancient Fey or Primal curse on lesser giants on some ancient offworld Ogre homeplanet. A curse which punished their gluttony for an unlimited source of sustenance with eternal unsatiable hunger.
On Faerun trolls are probably traceable to Ostaria, perhaps a eastern province of Voninheim, somewhere under the Great Glacier. Ulutiu retreated under the Cold Ocean around 2300 years before DR, so trolls were gradually pushed from the North into the southern lands ever since, spiralling downward along marshes and forested mountain edges into settled lands. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 13:13:55
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| This is so weird.... I just started speaking of "trolls"... but ysgardian trolls/fensir in another thread. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 13:20:05
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About trolls and gods from Monster Mythology:
"Trolls have been excluded because, contrary to prior belief, their instinctual savagery and stupidity bars them from any concern with the divine."
So, no gods for trolls. |
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Mi-Go
Acolyte
Finland
10 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 13:58:40
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quote:
Naturally, trolls believe the opposite.
They think Vaprak created the other Gods and thus other creatures, just so the trolls could eat them.
The Giants in the Ordnung think they are the result of Othea's affair with Vaprak, and a further degeneration of giant-kin, even lower than Ogres on the Ordnung scale.
I think besides the myth that trolls are the result of an ancient Fey or Primal curse on lesser giants on some ancient offworld Ogre homeplanet. A curse which punished their gluttony for an unlimited source of sustenance with eternal unsatiable hunger.
On Faerun trolls are probably traceable to Ostaria, perhaps a eastern province of Voninheim, somewhere under the Great Glacier. Ulutiu retreated under the Cold Ocean around 2300 years before DR, so trolls were gradually pushed from the North into the southern lands ever since, spiralling downward along marshes and forested mountain edges into settled lands.
Thank you very much for this! Very inspiring text. I should have almost guessed that this would be the troll perspective on the matter!
The troll relationship to giants is also an interesting and murky subject
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
About trolls and gods from Monster Mythology:
"Trolls have been excluded because, contrary to prior belief, their instinctual savagery and stupidity bars them from any concern with the divine."
So, no gods for trolls.
Fascinating! Apparently at the time of writing for the MM trolls were the de facto dumb race, even though nowadays ogres, hill giants etc. are giving them a run for their money.
So does this mean that Vaprak basically tolerates them / accepts their souls out of pity? Or is he so desperate on followers that anything goes? :P |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 15:11:52
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I'd wager that somewhere along the lines someone who liked Trolls got to write one sentence saying they have him for a god to give them a boost. Probably in 3rd E. when all the monster races started being used for PCs (crazy but whatever).
However, I'd say the writer of MM has this locked. "Contrary to prior belief" He's basically saying everything else you might have read is wrong. Classic. It was written by Carl Sargent, who did mostly Greyhawk stuff including From The Ashes, and the Night Below boxed set. Both were great.
I guess the question really is does it add anything to have trolls be devoted to Vaprak. I'd say no. In fact, it just makes things messier, because then you have to work out relationships between various Vaprak worshipers. Ich. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 17:29:17
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There are 'greater trolls' - ones who are not quite so savage (but could become so when riled). Trolls in mercenary companies (I even recall a solo mercenary who used armor and weapons). If they can learn how to be soldiers, even using weapons and armor, why wouldn't they be able to handle worshiping a deity? It doesn't mean they automatically would, but it should be possible, since they do seem to have the cunning to become 'civilized... some of them, anyway.
Humans span the spectrum of savagery and intelligence (Grimlocks fall out on the low end), so why couldn't trolls, or any race for that matter? I think a lot of fantasy/D&D races are merely 'ignorant', not stupid.
And wasn't there a VERY smart troll in one of the Moonshae trilogies? Its been years since I read them, but I recall a God being involved in that as well (Bane?)
I think, at this point, we should take at least some of the Giantcraft/Twilight Giants lore and consider it 'hearsay' (apocryphal in canon) - that a bunch of it is actually stories fabricated by the giants themselves (especially regarding the giantkin, Ogres, and Trolls).
Besides, we already know where Ogres really came from - they are devolved Irda. 
TRUE ogres, at any rate. Most setting settings have stunted Hill Giants or Hagspawn and just call them Ogres (in Mystara, they are actually and offshoot of goblinoids!) What if Ogres really just started out as the Giant equivalent of midgets?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2018 17:29:40 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 17:56:40
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So it is established that Trolls ARE Giant-kin right?
If so, then they could have been created by Giant Gods for use by the Greater Giants as soldiers.
Trolls make excellent soldiers: they can subsist on whatever is available to eat in the field, need almost no healing magic to recover their injuries, have natural weaponry that actually puts Hill Giants and some others to shame (I'd bet on a Troll Winning in a Fight with a Hill Giant every time!), need no other materials for their support (clothes, armor, etc), and they are capable of reproducing rather quickly (compared to giants).
If Trolls have a creator other than a God, I'd blame the early giants for them. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 18:49:18
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Auldragon has an excellent description of the troll clergy of Vaprak. It has far more detail on the Ogre side of Vaprak though.
Aren't greater trolls just exceptionally old elder trolls from other planes who have seemingly no age-limit? They wouldn't necessarily be intelligent, but would have elder memories and cunning from experiencing millennia of hunger. Building on Dalors thoughts I'd say they are found on Abeir, where more primal giants are known to wander.
But I'm tempted to blame the Seldarine, as they were the enemies of Fomorians in mythic times and tend be callous in creating a curse that makes a hideous new form of the enemy. The regenerating part of trolls could be a tie to an abundance of life, something the Seelie fey tend to embody.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 21:20:32
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| -I like the idea of Trolls being somehow corrupted. Maybe somehow related to Memnor; his portfolios include pride and he tried to overthrow Annam. Maybe Trolls were originally his creation, some vain project, and Annam corrupted them to punish his deviousness and vanity. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:06:26
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Thats twice today I had to look up a name - I must be slipping.
It sounds to me it might be best to spin Stonmaus and Memnor as sons of Annam, and brothers that hate each other (possibly half-brothers - Annam seems to have fathered an awful lot of kids LOL) I guess thats what happens when you have a giant... personality. 
I never really liked Vaprak as the Ogre deity - funny how he is being spun more about them than trolls, which he looks like. For my proto-Cosmology, I could possibly spin bot Vaprak and Kostchtchie as opposing forces, both 'fallen' arch-somethings (Celestials, probably - everything 'not a god' was basically a Celestial, back then). Then maybe say that Vaprak fathered the Trolls (which could just be myth), but then just to piss-off Kostchtchie he stole Ogre worship from him... which then annoyed his troll followers (who were feeling neglected), and he lost most of those (so only a rare handful of trolls would even bother with Vaprak anymore, most, as was noted above, are now much too feral to even care about such things).
So when Kostchtchie 'fell' (as a giantish exarch), he became a demon lord, and when Vaprak 'fell' (although I have no idea what he may have been part of before), he probably would have wanted to joining the devils, simply to oppose Kostchtchie, but devils didn't want anything to do with such a chaotic individual. Or conversely, say that Vaprak was the demon lord (because he's actually a much better fit), and after he stole Kostchtchie's worshipers away (the ogres), Kostchtchie went into a rage and stormed his place of business and took his stuff, so that now Kostchtchie is the demon lord Vaprak used to be. Thus, Vaprak is on the 'outs' with just about everyone and is just a loner-power now (which makes you wonder how he is even a power - its not like he's get much 'juice' from worship. He must have something more basic in his portfolio to make up for it, like 'primal rage', or some-such).
I do so love my Planer Soap Operas. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:12:14
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| Hmmmm... I mentioned the Irda earlier. What if Irda became the trolls and ogres? They are tall, thin, and blue... could be some of them devolved into trolls. Maybe what happened to them is like what happened with Gollum/Smeagol in LotRs? Got all 'warped and gangly'? Or maybe someone captured a bunch of Irda and experimented on them? It would go a long way in explaining the connection between ogres and trolls (when apparently there is none, physically... just the idea that in folklore - NOT D&D - they are interchangeable). So then we could possibly go a step further and say Vaprak is the corrupted god of the Irda, and after he was corrupted, the rest of them became corrupted as well (either ogres or trolls... or minotaurs, it seems). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... I mentioned the Irda earlier. What if Irda became the trolls and ogres? They are tall, thin, and blue... could be some of them devolved into trolls. Maybe what happened to them is like what happened with Gollum/Smeagol in LotRs? Got all 'warped and gangly'? Or maybe someone captured a bunch of Irda and experimented on them? It would go a long way in explaining the connection between ogres and trolls (when apparently there is none, physically... just the idea that in folklore - NOT D&D - they are interchangeable). So then we could possibly go a step further and say Vaprak is the corrupted god of the Irda, and after he was corrupted, the rest of them became corrupted as well (either ogres or trolls... or minotaurs, it seems).
I like the idea of their God becoming twisted. Possibly by the Abyss itself? When he was "twisted" he could have passed this on to his own "kind" by way of Divine Power or simple breeding.
D&D trolls are NASTY for mortals. Regeneration and horribly powerful in combat...I mean, even their LIMBS sometimes grow new trolls!
Perhaps Vaprak didn't so much "create" trolls (or whoever did create them) as cause them to come into being by the simple act of reproduction? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
D&D trolls are NASTY for mortals. Regeneration and horribly powerful in combat...I mean, even their LIMBS sometimes grow new trolls!
I know that's been the case in the fiction, but it seems unreasonable to me that an arm could grow an entire body. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2018 : 22:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
D&D trolls are NASTY for mortals. Regeneration and horribly powerful in combat...I mean, even their LIMBS sometimes grow new trolls!
I know that's been the case in the fiction, but it seems unreasonable to me that an arm could grow an entire body.
I always thought it was crazy too...I don't allow it in my games. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 01:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It sounds to me it might be best to spin Stonmaus and Memnor as sons of Annam, and brothers that hate each other (possibly half-brothers - Annam seems to have fathered an awful lot of kids LOL) I guess thats what happens when you have a giant... personality.
Spin? They are sons of Annam by an unknown sky goddess... and they do hate each other. Stronmaus, Hiatea, Grolantor, Iallanis, Memnor, and Skoraeus are all direct brother/sisters with the same parents.
Now, that means Surtr (Surtur) and Thrym are NOT born of Annam and they are gods of the frost and fire giants. Thus, the idea that Annam "copied" certain types of giants when he had Othea birth his children can be supported by this (thus at least Ottar and Masud seem to be copies of a more elemental version of giant). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 04:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
D&D trolls are NASTY for mortals. Regeneration and horribly powerful in combat...I mean, even their LIMBS sometimes grow new trolls!
I know that's been the case in the fiction, but it seems unreasonable to me that an arm could grow an entire body.
I always thought it was crazy too...I don't allow it in my games.
This is why i think of trolls more as a Frakenstein's monster sort of situation. Regeneration is like the ultimate upgrade for a soldier class. Just imagine a powerful race of spellcasters trying to create super soldiers to crush their enemies hit upon a way to make trolls regenerative.
For awhile they have an ultimate army killing all their enemies en masse. Then one day - uh oh - they lose control.... idk some idiot creates a blade barrier or something that turns 5 trolls into 5000 and then it really hits the fan.
Before you know it they overwhelm the creators and eat them - creators are tasty don't you know - and then proceed to take over the underside of bridges all over the multiverse. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 07:51:15
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| You could just import that demon lord of trolls from Pathfinder and say that Vaprak kicked his teeth in. It's not so different from Captain Fuzzybritches's theft of Gorellik's worshipers. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 09:23:46
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Back in Legends & Lore for 1st-edition, Vaprak is expressly god of both ogres and trolls, though later editions shifted him more toward ogres. Vaprak is also god of ogre mages/oni, at least according to "Ecology of the Ogre Mage" in Dragon #349, via his three sons being the ancestors of the ogre mages.
The old Forgotten Realms comics series from DC Comics, in the first story titled "The Hand of Vaprak", offers an odd legend about this. In the legend, the "grandmother of trolls" (a troll) tries to trick the "child of ogres" (an ogreish boy with horns, suggesting an oni mage instead) into grabbing roast chestnuts from a fire, so he would be burned and not her. Knowing this, but not thinking it through, he grabbed her hand and shoved it into the fire with his own, with both getting burned and losing their hands. Somehow, this caused Vaprak (he suddenly appears in the myth) to attain godhood of both ogres and trolls, and he merged their lost hands into the first Hand of Vaprak, an artifact, though one later recreated with other ogre hands, such as that of the ogre mage/oni Gornak in the comic.
I don't know who or what grandmother of trolls (grandmother of the troll race or a troll grandmother?) and child of ogres (an ogre child, or a child who would go on to create ogres?) are. Maybe the first troll and first ogre, or maybe an original troll goddess and original ogre god. It's how unclear how Vaprak attained godhood out of the incident at the fire, or even how he was involved.
Oh, and Gornak swears to "Vaprak and her eternal brood", suggesting Vaprak is female.
Good luck sorting it out.  The legend might imply their flesh burned and fused together, joining troll grandmother goddess and ogre child god into one, perhaps creating Vaprak. Trolls and oni might remember Vaprak as the grandmother, ogres as the boy. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 22:28:02
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As BadCatMan pointed out, 1e's Legends & Lore described Vaprak as god of both ogres and trolls. The Monstrous Compendium Entry for Trolls in 2e clearly indicates trolls have shamans, but DMGR4 Monster Mythology then says they're too savage to believe in the divine. As much as I like DMGR4, I'm inclined to see that as an attempted retcon that failed, and ignore it, especially given the similarity between Vaprak and trolls.
My opinion, and this is not in any way supported directly by canon, is that there were once two deities that each race worshiped separately (partially based on the depiction of Vaprak in the Thar booklet of Elminster's Ecologies), but they fought and one slew the other, absorbing his essence and becoming one deity for both races. That likely means the two races aren't directly relate, as well; that said, the Thar ogres are probably Spelljamming immigrants, which means other ogres on Faerun could be descended from Othea's infidelity (as could trolls, perhaps she bore twins to Vaprak).
I wouldn't have the Irda be related, as they have their own thing going on in Dragonlance, and Vaprak has nothing to do with that setting. In addition, ancient ogres on Krynn gave rise separately to trolls through their giantish offshots (and modified by the Greystone of Gargath) and ogres were the result of their cursed form due to their great evil. Irda are the uncursed offshoot of the original ogres.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 22:55:20
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| I will also point out that while trolls have an origin through Vaprak, at least in Maztica there is another source for the creation of trolls. Zaltec introduce orcs, ogres, trolls, and a bigger version of ogre known as jagre to that part of the world by transforming humans into those other races. Presumably it bred true. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 22:58:11
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I started typing a bunch of stuff about the giants, and I kept running into 'dead ends' as I spun things, so i decided to give up (yet again) on trying to fix the mess that is D&D/FR Giant lore.
EDIT: I'm going to try again...
Why can't the children of Annam and Othea merely be Faerūnian aspects of the higher echelon of Giant gods? Annam fathers the core ones first, in the First World, and then when the Multiverse is shattered, he visits each in turn, finds a 'mother' (in out case, othea), and places a fragment/shard (aspect) of his children inside, thus 'impregnating' her with his new, Sphere-specific offspring (and each is a lesser version - and aspect - of the core Giant gods). Now, even if Annam didn't sire Surter & Thrym (and who's to say he didn't, with someone else?), he could still get aspects from them to impregnate his chosen brood-mare and create his 'earthly' children on each world. The Titan, Lanaxis, was probably an aspect of himself he used (so that may have been some good; old-fashioned copulation there... Othea did have some supple hills... LOL)
As for Vaprak having been two deities: Perhaps he was one 'good' deity (I am leaning back towards the Irda here - sorry), and he became corrupted during the Dawn War, as did so many others, and in order to 'save' him he was split, but it was a dismal failure. Although the corrupted Vaprak half came out the way it should, it still took too much from the other (whom I am still leaning toward Kostchtchie), who was fairly stupid, due to having his mind ripped in half (although he still got more of it than Vaprak seems to have). Then I'd just go with what I suggested earlier - Vaprak became an archfiend, and his 'brother' Kostchtchie showed up, beat him down, and took his stuff (which means he was corrupted as well, which is why I say the process was a complete failure - they were unable to save any semblance of that dead, 'Irda God'). This eventually 'resonated' throughout the planes, and wherever a piece of corruption showed up (some sort of meteor in Dragonlance), the former followers of the 'lost god' became corrupted in similar ways. these were the Ture Ogres, BTW. On each world there are other races that evolved to fill that niche (FR has both Othea's brood, and also hagspawn, which are a different kind of Ogre. On Mystra, Ogres were a type of goblinoid that evolved to fill that roll - probably the offspring of a giant god/Annam and a member of the Goblin pantheon).
Now, borrowing from the other thread, if the Necklace of Ice was indeed part of the Regalia of Winter, than its corruption could have already been affecting Ulutiu, and thats why his children were sometimes messed up (I don't really think the firbolga were his, but that's another story).
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This is why i think of trolls more as a Frakenstein's monster sort of situation. Regeneration is like the ultimate upgrade for a soldier class. Just imagine a powerful race of spellcasters trying to create super soldiers to crush their enemies hit upon a way to make trolls regenerative.
For awhile they have an ultimate army killing all their enemies en masse. Then one day - uh oh - they lose control.... idk some idiot creates a blade barrier or something that turns 5 trolls into 5000 and then it really hits the fan.
Before you know it they overwhelm the creators and eat them - creators are tasty don't you know - and then proceed to take over the underside of bridges all over the multiverse.
In my purely homebrew setting, this was my take as well, but it wasn't the humans, it was the 'ebil' Męladrin (Male-A-dreen) - Melnibonean knock-offs - that molded and shaped other races into forms to be used as 'tools' for themselves, some quite monstrous. There are actually a variety of trolls in my setting, all originally designed for some type of purpose to the Męladrine. For example, 'Lumbering trolls' have boney appendages at the end of their wrists, shaped like two-sided axes (it's literally part of their skeleton that extends outward from the flesh). They were made to lumber - cut trees and set them on other creatures to be transported. They could also be used in a pinch as extra troops (although they had trolls specifically for THAT purpose as well, with dagger-like claws that could rend metal, all the troll-types were extremely hearty and useful as fodder in a battle).
The trolls themselves may have been made from humans, or something else (even their own people - they're not above that). There are lots of other monsterous creations attributed them besides trolls - they weren't very nice people. its probably why the entire world allied to defeat them (and it TOOK the whole world - and a couple of gods - to do it).
Thus, my Męladrine Fleshmolders were ALL very much 'Frankensteins'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jan 2018 23:24:32 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 23:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I will also point out that while trolls have an origin through Vaprak, at least in Maztica there is another source for the creation of trolls. Zaltec introduce orcs, ogres, trolls, and a bigger version of ogre known as jagre to that part of the world by transforming humans into those other races. Presumably it bred true.
I like this sort of thing, since it further proves multiple origins for creatures that by real-world genetics couldn't actually happen. I've long felt that there are ephemeral "templates" that exist, so if a wizard or god wants to create something that fits a certain niche (such as a more savage foe for elves, humans, dwarves, etc.), they naturally come out to match things known from elsewhere in the multiverse.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 23:34:05
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Wait - does it actually say Ogres were also Vaprak's children by Othea? I had thought only the Trolls were, but Ogres accepted him at some point as their god (which is doubly weird, when you consider how he looks, and also if he wasn't their father, as he was with the trolls... but I'm not sure about that part).
I am leaning more and more towards 'Ogre' being more of a descriptor in D&D than an actual multispheric 'race'. Each world may have their own race of them, or even several different groups, but 'Ogre' is just a term to describe big brutish (and somewhat man-like) creatures. Even the 3e neanderthals could have fallen under this heading (or WoW's 'Trogs'). Some may be giants (or half-giants), some may be Hagspawn, some may be a Goblin offshoot, some may be the product of genetic experimentation (or godly mutation), etc., etc. On a world with no other creatures to fill that niche, even 3e's Goliath's might be called 'Ogres' on some worlds (and I can't believe I just referenced THEM... *Yuk*).
So yeah, just a word in some ancient language (mostly likely Fey/Elvish), and it just keeps getting reused for different things.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I will also point out that while trolls have an origin through Vaprak, at least in Maztica there is another source for the creation of trolls. Zaltec introduce orcs, ogres, trolls, and a bigger version of ogre known as jagre to that part of the world by transforming humans into those other races. Presumably it bred true.
I like this sort of thing, since it further proves multiple origins for creatures that by real-world genetics couldn't actually happen. I've long felt that there are ephemeral "templates" that exist, so if a wizard or god wants to create something that fits a certain niche (such as a more savage foe for elves, humans, dwarves, etc.), they naturally come out to match things known from elsewhere in the multiverse.
Jeff
You responded before I could, but we both (all three?) went in the same direction here.
EDIT:
And Ettins should be from a fling Othea had with Demogorgon, just because...
And even though I was making a bit of a joke here, it has been scientifically proven that offspring can gain DNA from more than one father (the mother's 'lovers'), and thus can gain traits from different fathers. So, yeah, Demogorgon snuck in the back door when Annam left for work... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2018 00:41:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 04:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wait - does it actually say Ogres were also Vaprak's children by Othea? I had thought only the Trolls were, but Ogres accepted him at some point as their god (which is doubly weird, when you consider how he looks, and also if he wasn't their father, as he was with the trolls... but I'm not sure about that part).
I am leaning more and more towards 'Ogre' being more of a descriptor in D&D than an actual multispheric 'race'. Each world may have their own race of them, or even several different groups, but 'Ogre' is just a term to describe big brutish (and somewhat man-like) creatures. Even the 3e neanderthals could have fallen under this heading (or WoW's 'Trogs'). Some may be giants (or half-giants), some may be Hagspawn, some may be a Goblin offshoot, some may be the product of genetic experimentation (or godly mutation), etc., etc. On a world with no other creatures to fill that niche, even 3e's Goliath's might be called 'Ogres' on some worlds (and I can't believe I just referenced THEM... *Yuk*).
So yeah, just a word in some ancient language (mostly likely Fey/Elvish), and it just keeps getting reused for different things.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I will also point out that while trolls have an origin through Vaprak, at least in Maztica there is another source for the creation of trolls. Zaltec introduce orcs, ogres, trolls, and a bigger version of ogre known as jagre to that part of the world by transforming humans into those other races. Presumably it bred true.
I like this sort of thing, since it further proves multiple origins for creatures that by real-world genetics couldn't actually happen. I've long felt that there are ephemeral "templates" that exist, so if a wizard or god wants to create something that fits a certain niche (such as a more savage foe for elves, humans, dwarves, etc.), they naturally come out to match things known from elsewhere in the multiverse.
Jeff
You responded before I could, but we both (all three?) went in the same direction here.
EDIT:
And Ettins should be from a fling Othea had with Demogorgon, just because...
And even though I was making a bit of a joke here, it has been scientifically proven that offspring can gain DNA from more than one father (the mother's 'lovers'), and thus can gain traits from different fathers. So, yeah, Demogorgon snuck in the back door when Annam left for work...
It says he fathered ogres on Othea. Who/what/how he fathered the troll race, not sure. In fact, he might not have, but it would be unusual. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 15:42:25
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I still stick with Vaprak as the troll god, since he is the old-school Deities & Demigods 1st edition troll deity. Remember that 1st Edition Deities & Demigods (the original book with the later copyright-banned chapters on Cthulhu Mythos) came way before Monster Mythology. And Deities & Demigods made it clear that Vaprak was the chief god of the trolls as well as ogres.
I now play 5th Edition, and although I cannot yet find any official mention of Vaprak on a 5E core or supplement book, I'm sure that he will eventually be mentioned, and most likely be the troll/ogre deity, since 5E's modus operandi is to line itself up and reboot itself with original old-school lore.
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Creator/origin of trolls in Faerun
