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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 09:02:56
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I've been thinking about stasis clones (not that way ).
Are the soul inhabiting the stasis clone the real one, or is it a new soul with the memories of the original person? What I mean is if a mage who has a stasis clone hidden somewere dies and the clone becomes active, is it possible for a cleric to resurrect the original body?
This leads me to my second question. Are there hundreds of Manshoon souls running around in Banes realm (Manshoon war victims not included)?
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I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 13:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I've been thinking about stasis clones (not that way).
Are the soul inhabiting the stasis clone the real one, or is it a new soul with the memories of the original person? What I mean is if a mage who has a stasis clone hidden somewere dies and the clone becomes active, is it possible for a cleric to resurrect the original body?
This leads me to my second question. Are there hundreds of Manshoon souls running around in Banes realm (Manshoon war victims not included)?
Back in TSR days, souls didn't exist, for fear of the fundies finding more reasons to try and sue D&D out of existence.
Nowadays, it's bandied about commonly. As for which clone "has the soul," I'd adjudicate that they ALL do. To explain, I see a soul as nigh-infinite energy, so it's easily shared among them all; it also explains why clones want to kill each other when they get near each other--there's a tug-of-war going over soul energies that the egos can't handle.
Resurrecting a body that's since had a clone activated? Rules aside, that's really a judgement call by the GM. I'd allow it, but here's the kicker--the resurrected one might NOT have the original soul. He'd be more of a copy than the now-active clone. OR things could get really weird and the soul that occupies that body is a reincarnate of someone else tied to that person--a former victim? Brother? Lifelong enemy?
Are there many Manshoon souls? Nope. The crafty bastard's only got one, just like the rest of us. He's just worn more "meat-suits" (AKA bodies) than the rest of us tend to in a lifetime. |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 15:36:27
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Wow... That's actually pretty similar to my response to the question of the clones and Manshoon's soul.
I'd add my own idea on what happens when a clone is killed: it's portion of the original soul is evenly distributed to all the remaining clones. This has no effect in game terms; it just means that each clone has a little more of the soul. |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 18:07:34
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Huh-huh...he said 'meat-suit'.
I never went so far as saying it was a soul, just the consciousness. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
Edited by - Melfius on 12 Sep 2005 18:08:06 |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 19:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd add my own idea on what happens when a clone is killed: it's portion of the original soul is evenly distributed to all the remaining clones. This has no effect in game terms; it just means that each clone has a little more of the soul.
But Ed Greenwood said that the real Manshoon has yet to reveal himself. This means that there is a real Manshoon, and the others (the vampire, theUndermountain one and the Zenth) are basicly new souls that just think they are the real Mccoy. Unless the real soul is full of holes (get it, holy soul ) and the others are smaller parts of the soul that have grown to full height. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Adam_Garou
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 15:08:11
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Well, the scenario having to do with the energy flowing into the remaining clones sounds remarkably similar to the movie "The One" starring Jet Li. In it, there's only a finite amount of energy, however, and as a "self" is destroyed/killed, the energy flows into the remaining "selves", making thems stronger and faster.
Personally, I like this view of the stasis clones. Here's a hypothetical--what would happen if all the clones were killed, but a sample was taken from the flesh and the old run-of-the-mill "clone" spell was cast? What do you think would happen to the soul, then?
Would it be in the Abyss (or wherever Manshoon might end up)?
Would it be recalled by the power of the spell, similar to the "reincarnation" spell?
Would it merely be a quasi-sentient copy that simply believes itself to be Manshoon?
Just a few thoughts... |
"If we do happen to make contact (with the enemy), I expect nothing less than gratuitous violence from the lot of you."
--Sgt. Harry Wells, DOG SOLDIERS-- |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 16:10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam_Garou
Personally, I like this view of the stasis clones. Here's a hypothetical--what would happen if all the clones were killed, but a sample was taken from the flesh and the old run-of-the-mill "clone" spell was cast? What do you think would happen to the soul, then?
Would it be in the Abyss (or wherever Manshoon might end up)?
Would it be recalled by the power of the spell, similar to the "reincarnation" spell?
Would it merely be a quasi-sentient copy that simply believes itself to be Manshoon?
Manshoon is lawful evil which means that he would go to the Nine Hells rather than the Abyss, exept that he is (at least to my knowledge) a follower of Bane, so he would go to Bane's realm (in The Barrens of Doom and Despair).
I belive that a activated stasis clone is a new soul (kinda like new born baby) that already has the memories of the original person implanted into it (along the lines of that Schwartsenegger movie with the clones. Sixth day or something). |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Adam_Garou
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 16:18:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
quote:
Originally posted by Adam_Garou
Personally, I like this view of the stasis clones. Here's a hypothetical--what would happen if all the clones were killed, but a sample was taken from the flesh and the old run-of-the-mill "clone" spell was cast? What do you think would happen to the soul, then?
Would it be in the Abyss (or wherever Manshoon might end up)?
Would it be recalled by the power of the spell, similar to the "reincarnation" spell?
Would it merely be a quasi-sentient copy that simply believes itself to be Manshoon?
Manshoon is lawful evil which means that he would go to the Nine Hells rather than the Abyss, exept that he is (at least to my knowledge) a follower of Bane, so he would go to Bane's realm (in The Barrens of Doom and Despair).
I belive that a activated stasis clone is a new soul (kinda like new born baby) that already has the memories of the original person implanted into it (along the lines of that Schwartsenegger movie with the clones. Sixth day or something).
Well, I ask because in the campaign I'm currently involved in, we've had a major battle in which the brother of the king of a surface elf realm has died. Bad news for us, since he's the main military commander, but it gets worse--none of the elvish clerics are still alive, so no resurrection spells. This got me thinking about the clone spell as a possible way to bring him back, because the party's wizard is able to cast it.
It's actually shaping up to be a very touching scene between the king and the wizard as they discuss the fate of his brother's soul. For all intents and purposes, he could have his brother back, but he wrestles with the question of whether it actually IS his brother. Very poignant, actually... especially considering that the wizard is a drow female.
I guess it's something we all have to decide our own answers for--being new to the community of Candlekeep, I thought I'd find out what some of the rest of you think. If this isn't the appropriate place to ask, I apologize in advance--I'm not intending to hijack the thread. |
"If we do happen to make contact (with the enemy), I expect nothing less than gratuitous violence from the lot of you."
--Sgt. Harry Wells, DOG SOLDIERS-- |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 16:24:59
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I always got the impression that Manshoon simply paid lip service to the gods (after all he hates for anyone to be above him).
The Status Clone spell (atleast in 2nd E)required the caster to continually 'update' the clones or else they'd be 'born' with the memories, levels and abilities of when they where created (or last updated)- how many of Manshoons clones did he update? And which one was his most up to date clone? I wouldn't be surprised if that clone was hidden somewhere manipulating everything from the Shadows.
Hanx
Elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 17:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
The Status Clone spell (atleast in 2nd E)required the caster to continually 'update' the clones or else they'd be 'born' with the memories, levels and abilities of when they where created (or last updated)- how many of Manshoons clones did he update? And which one was his most up to date clone? I wouldn't be surprised if that clone was hidden somewhere manipulating everything from the Shadows.
Hanx
Elrond
I'd imagine that since stasis clone was his insurance policy, he made a point of periodically updating his clones. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 19:21:49
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| Manshoon's updates of clones was mentioned somewheres....like FR7 or somesuch.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 20:24:48
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Can a mage make a stasis clone from someone other than him/herself? If so can he/she make a stasis clone out of a dead person?
If a mage makes a stasis clone from him/herself when young, and lives a long life and dies out of old age, is the activated stasis clone still young or does it age? |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
Edited by - Talanfir Swiftfeet on 13 Sep 2005 20:27:00 |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 20:27:55
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| Thus I know so far of Manshoon's history, I would say that, there's only one Manshoon soul, the original one, and the clones are only an empty vessel with a "resetted" soul. It has Manshoon's memories til the date the clone awakened. So every soul is a common and unique soul, with the "defect" that they believe they are the real Manshoon. So when they die, it's the soul in the body the one that comes back from the death, not Manshoon's one. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 23:59:10
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Wow, talk about a deeply philosophical thread. Boy, am I glad things like this won't be happening in the real world any time before.
Generally, and individual is interpretted as having one soul, even after death. When someone dies and moves on, they are still regarded as one entity (or at least for the next little while they are). Because there are things such as ghosts and wandering spirits, and the fact that any individual is still one individual being (one whatever plane they may go), as opposed to being part of a giant collective, suggests that we still maintain one solid, hand-packed soul. The act of dying causes your one soul to leave. That soul doesn't disperse, although a GM may rule that it does after a certain period of time after death.
The way clones work it would seem is that your ONE soul goes into a selfless, soulless body. This process happens immidiately, and so I would think that the soul is denied being anything more than a wandering spirit for the brief period of time between bodies.
Now, on the note of ressurection. Since you have ONE soul, and not many, two possibilities might happen:
a: the spell fails, on the note that the spell is designed to retain a soul that is not situated in a physical body.
b: the spell actually sucks the soul out of its new body, and puts it in its old one.
The difference between both options may simply be the potentcy of the spell, and the caster level.
As far as old memories go. Remember that memories themselves (to the discretion of the GM, since FR is a place primarily concerned with magic, not biology) are simply data situated in the human brain. Memory, in many regards, is information kept by infinately branching cell in the central nervous system. These cells may be what gives the soul its new memories, since the soul itself isn't what keeps them. Likewise, if you wanted to, you could alter your clone to remember different things. In Mansoon's case, his clone does not remember its death, and simply knows that it is 'the real mansoon'.
Of course, the arguement that memories are a result of brain cells dies when looking at ghosts and wandering spirits. They seem to retain memories of life without brain cells. But, either way.
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 06:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Generally, and individual is interpretted as having one soul, even after death. When someone dies and moves on, they are still regarded as one entity (or at least for the next little while they are). Because there are things such as ghosts and wandering spirits, and the fact that any individual is still one individual being (one whatever plane they may go), as opposed to being part of a giant collective, suggests that we still maintain one solid, hand-packed soul. The act of dying causes your one soul to leave. That soul doesn't disperse, although a GM may rule that it does after a certain period of time after death.
The way clones work it would seem is that your ONE soul goes into a selfless, soulless body. This process happens immidiately, and so I would think that the soul is denied being anything more than a wandering spirit for the brief period of time between bodies.
If this is the case then how do you explain 40+ Manshoons waking at the same time.
Actually I have two possible anwsers.
A: There is one soul of Manshoon that is in one of the clones. Other clones have new souls that only think they are old.
B: There is one soul of Manshoon that is in one of the clones. Other clones have their brains working and controlling the body, but they don't have souls (kinda like very intelligent fleshgolems). |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 11:29:40
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Steven Schend, one of the guys behind the Manshoon Wars, recently said:
quote:
Back in TSR days, souls didn't exist, for fear of the fundies finding more reasons to try and sue D&D out of existence.
Nowadays, it's bandied about commonly. As for which clone "has the soul," I'd adjudicate that they ALL do. To explain, I see a soul as nigh-infinite energy, so it's easily shared among them all; it also explains why clones want to kill each other when they get near each other--there's a tug-of-war going over soul energies that the egos can't handle.
Resurrecting a body that's since had a clone activated? Rules aside, that's really a judgement call by the GM. I'd allow it, but here's the kicker--the resurrected one might NOT have the original soul. He'd be more of a copy than the now-active clone. OR things could get really weird and the soul that occupies that body is a reincarnate of someone else tied to that person--a former victim? Brother? Lifelong enemy?
Are there many Manshoon souls? Nope. The crafty bastard's only got one, just like the rest of us. He's just worn more "meat-suits" (AKA bodies) than the rest of us tend to in a lifetime.
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 13:34:30
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So I suppouse that with this statement the topic is closed then  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 17:08:09
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You know, I knew when I posted that bit from Steven that it was something he'd recently said. I didn't realize it was in this thread that he'd said it! I guess I need to scan the thread next time...  |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2016 : 19:36:37
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I would like to resurect this topic as it seems to me not conclusive. It is great to have a creator of this event here but lets put some premises ito account:
-there is magic that works with the soul.
-up until Manshoon war there has not been such incident so it didn't surfaced
-there is only one soul and it can occupy only one body at the time
-you could possibly implant soulless body with your memories
-all clones are producing some kind of magic
Normaly a living body without a soul is mentaly passive and in coma (have no intelect). It is possible to be possesed by ghost (other soul) but it would have a different memories of its own and also different character. It is also possible that Manshoon create those clones with some magical compulsion to do certain things but it make no sense to make them full automatons magicaly.
Have anybody some ideas as to where might those souls came from or any other explanation besides Steve's "one soul"? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2016 : 21:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
-there is only one soul and it can occupy only one body at the time
I would say this is not a valid premise. Even if you put the many Manshoons aside, we still have the precedent of Dragonbait's soul being split to go into Alias (and, presumably, her sisters). And I believe even in those books, they used the same "a soul is infinite" argument to explain how both Dragonbait and Alias were running around with his soul. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2016 : 23:49:26
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Thank you for answering Wooly but I am searching for solution of this situation for my Realms where I had to be quite specific about soul due to PC character of Jergalite priest. I do not plan to include Alias and Dragonbait in my realms so their precedent is not so important.
If they have all one soul... what happens if somebody will cast Trap the soul on one of the clones? Will all Manshoons fall to ground without a life?
Any inspiration or idea would be great and I know of a Master of Mischief who excel in that :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 00:44:13
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I, personally, would go with the explanation that an infinite soul can be split infinite times -- but once it drops into a body, it becomes a different soul. The mind and body may be a copy of the original, but as soon as it becomes active, that mind and body are diverging from the original in terms of experience. So at the moment of awakening, the soul changes from what it originally was, and becomes a different soul.
So doing a trap the soul on Manshoon #17 has no effect on Manshoons 1-16, or 18-40, or on Manshoon Prime.
One side effect of this would be that unless you have the body at hand, trying to communicate with the spirit of a dead Manshoon might mean you reach a different Manshoon than the one you intended!
This is all assuming this is post-Manshoon Wars. I would say that before then, you had Manshoon Prime and Manshoon Visible, the latter being the one active in public. When Manshoon V died, it would be just a straight transfer into the nearest body. With each shift, it's the same soul getting passed along, but it changes a bit each time -- so after a decade or two Manshoon V might have some very different goals and personality traits from Manshoon Prime.
I would further theorize that Manshoon Prime somehow split his soul the first time, giving rise to the first Manshoon Visible, and then immediately changed himself in some way so that he wasn't the same and didn't have to worry about the clone trying to kill him. Alternatively, the first clone was modified to be something different, and any who might have realized the difference were quietly eliminated.
It is also likely that Manshoon Prime retains some means of influencing the clones, something that they themselves are unaware of -- after all, if you're going to make a duplicate of yourself, you'd want to be able to direct it. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 May 2016 00:46:05 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 13:36:25
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| Along these lines, the ritual manshoon enacted for his stasis clones might be somewhat considered similar to when some liches split their souls amongst multiple phylacteries. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6652 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 16:05:47
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To be clear, Manshoon's clones are soulless so I'm not sure what Wrigley is asking. When he dies, his soul is transferred to a clone. The earlier edition clone spells prevented you from activating multiple clones due to the ill effects that followed; Ed's solution was to place the clones in stasis. In 5E there are a few issues. Firstly, the clone spell already creates a dormant, in stasis, clone. There is also seemingly no prohibition from creating multiple such clones - although it is unclear as to how and where a person's soul would transfer to in the case of multiple clones. Manshoon's stasis clone spell operated on a cab rank basis - next in line and all that. Although again, I'm not sure the transfer mechanism was clearly explained. To go back to Wrigley, I don't know what he means by: "It is also possible that Manshoon create those clones with some magical compulsion to do certain things but it makes no sense to make them full automatons magically." Manshoon's clones have no compulsions and are not simulacrums or automatons. Perhaps Wrigley can better explain what the issue is here.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 16:24:51
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So you would have afterlife full of Manshoons awakened in M-wars...
I have been also playing with the idea I found here at the Keep during my investigation that Manshoon is realy a possesed body of much older Shoon who is able to posses bodies of his relatives. As our Manshoon misteriously mastered magic as soon as he take that Spellbook which is about the same time as his father was assasinated in Zhentil Keep it fits that he got possesed by the same Shoon as his father but as he was 29 years old already there was no time to wait for insurance (progeny) so he started expetimenting with cloning this body. It explain a lot including his world dominance attitude and his no regard for actual body. However it still doesn't explain how other clones could have been able to walk and cast magic.
One theory could be that he is actualy transforming already living host to a form of Manshoon and he keeps the former soul as source that keeps the body alive until he posses it. This would however not explain how they all act in the similar way to Manshoon. Could they be manipulated as a defense in case they will be awaken? They are too direct for actual Manshoon and they could also just manipulate magic items at their disposal without actual magical talent. This would fit for first few clones who just teleported directly to a site of murder in killing spree. Why would the rest linger? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6652 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 17:03:03
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Okay, now I understand what the issue is: how did Manshoon's clones all activate at the same time. Steven Schend's answer above works as well as any explanation, but I think that your post above is a great option also. There are no 'right' answers here, it's what suits your campaign and game best. It's taken me decades to realize that all of the heavy hitters in the Realms have been around a long time, and as multiple people. Manshoon would be no different in that regard IMO.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 17:59:28
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| I had previously theorized that one of the inactive Manshoon clones being a vampire was the trigger behind the awakening of all the Manshoon clones, especially since the listing for that clone awakening happens before the listing for the awakening of the other 40ish. I believe, though, that it's since been indicated that Mystra interfered, causing the mass awakening (though, technically, I don't think my vampire theory was explicitly ruled out). |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2016 : 14:30:25
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Okay, now I understand what the issue is: how did Manshoon's clones all activate at the same time. Steven Schend's answer above works as well as any explanation, but I think that your post above is a great option also. There are no 'right' answers here, it's what suits your campaign and game best. It's taken me decades to realize that all of the heavy hitters in the Realms have been around a long time, and as multiple people. Manshoon would be no different in that regard IMO.
-- George Krashos
I am quite happy with the vampshoon broking the contingency trigger that Wooly posted (I am not sure if I came to it myself or read it here). Trouble is with theoretical absence of mental faculty in clones that awakened simultaneously - due to my already proclaimed workings of souls in my realms "there could be only one soul in one body of Manshoon". Others should be drooling idiots in coma not spellcasting (high int. req.) threats for most of Faerun. So I am looking for source of this 40-odd consciousnes with Manshoon character. Or other explanation other than the soul is infinite and can be splitted to full independent souls (I do not buy that and I also won't change already working system in my game that players count with). |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2016 : 14:42:19
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My theory of simultaneous awakening works based on contingency trigger "if my actual body is dead, awaken one my clones". The first in the line was a Vampshoon and so contingency confirmed each time - is he dead? - yes - awaking another body (Until it awakened all). Problem for contingency that Manshoon did not count with was that he both held his soul and was also dead - so the contingency spell stayed with the soul it is bound to and therefore found it dead each time in the loop. As it works without his consent it was already late when he found out. It is strange that he overlooked this with his intelect but he was a pioneer in this field and it could happen even to the best of us.
In my game there is a very old mage who was trapped for centuries in a dagger because he forgot he hed it on him when he atempted lichdom and as this dagger was a magic jar (stealing soul) it trapped his as he transfered to his phylactery. I quite like it when mighty fall due to minor detail they overlooked. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2016 : 12:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
To be clear, Manshoon's clones are soulless so I'm not sure what Wrigley is asking. When he dies, his soul is transferred to a clone. The earlier edition clone spells prevented you from activating multiple clones due to the ill effects that followed; Ed's solution was to place the clones in stasis. In 5E there are a few issues. Firstly, the clone spell already creates a dormant, in stasis, clone. There is also seemingly no prohibition from creating multiple such clones - although it is unclear as to how and where a person's soul would transfer to in the case of multiple clones. Manshoon's stasis clone spell operated on a cab rank basis - next in line and all that. Although again, I'm not sure the transfer mechanism was clearly explained. To go back to Wrigley, I don't know what he means by: "It is also possible that Manshoon create those clones with some magical compulsion to do certain things but it makes no sense to make them full automatons magically." Manshoon's clones have no compulsions and are not simulacrums or automatons. Perhaps Wrigley can better explain what the issue is here.
-- George Krashos
Depends on edition. Some of the earlier editions had it that say Manshoon creates a clone at level 20. He never goes back and touches that clone. He dies at level 21. Said clone activates, but it has none of the newer memories, nor does it have the levels, of anything that happened after creation. In this version, it would be possible to make an argument that he were somehow splitting off a portion of his soul into each clone and then placing contingency magics to make it not "activate" until his death. Thus, what happened with the many manshoons would make perfect sense (especially since both these things were in 2e).
This was retconned in 3e though, to what you describe, where there is but one soul. However, this retcon raises the question then of HOW did all of them activate at once if there's only one actual soul (which you can dream up reasons... other soul occupying bodies with erased memories, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2016 : 13:57:02
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| If it helps lets say 3e but to me it is mainly the issue of multiple consciousness where should be just one. Any thoughts on that? |
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Stasis clones
