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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 03:29:22
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I have just a little question for my fellow scribes out there:
What happened that the relationship between Bane and Mystra became so... complicated?
It must have something to do with the first Mystra, but I just don't get it. Bane was LE and Mystra LN, so no problem alignment wise. There was no opposition in their portfolios... neither did Bane do something against the spreading and using of magic nor did Mystra do anything against ambitious and fearsome Tyrants.
The only reason that comes to my mind would be Mystra's chosen, but... it seems a little funny to me that chosen do have that much influence on a god's relationship to other gods.
Or was Mystra not that LN at all? 
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It is all just a past and future secret
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RedStrike
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 03:54:47
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| I say that the Chosen of Mystra have no influence on their goddess at all or the goddess of magic would have been a tool to the very mortals she had chosen to be her champions. I think it is just the Chosen decision to go against Bane's followers as they do not like the idea of Tyranny that is preached by Bane, not the goddess of magic decision. |
We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 04:27:00
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Just for your information, the "old Mystra" is listed in the module Shadowdale as being LN (CN). That would mean that at times she would spontaneously act in a manner that was Chaotic neutral rather than lawful neutral. Couple that with the idea that she was the second goddess of magic and Ed has said in a few sources that she was feeling old and worn and tired of her responsibilities, that once in a while she would not always act up to her "job description."
I think by nature the office of Goddess of Magic is LN and the current Mystra might start to gravitate toward that alignment over time, though eventually she might start to drift into another alignment like the "Old Mystra."
All that having been said, sometimes I think we all into a trap where we think LN and LE would get along fine because they are both lawful and the LN one doesn't worry about morality, just ethics.
I don't think Helm and Bane, nor their churches, get along that well. For that matter, Khelbun may have made a deal with Fzoul, but in the grand scheme of things, Khelbun isn't likely to get along any better with Fzoul than he is with Szas Tam or Halaster. In fact you might even argue that he would get along better with Halaster.
Some LN characters, such as Helm and Khelbun, really are worried about making the Realms a better place for others and combating evil, but they also have a sort of "I'll get a little smudge on my halo and get my hands dirty for the greater good." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 05:40:09
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| Bane and Mystra don't get along because of their portfolios. Mystra wants magic to be freely shared to all who can use it. Bane wants tyranny -- which means, among other things, keeping magic out of the hands of those who can use it against you. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 13:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by RedStrike
I say that the Chosen of Mystra have no influence on their goddess at all or the goddess of magic would have been a tool to the very mortals she had chosen to be her champions.
It was interesting though to view a scene in Elminster's Daughter where Mystra asks a couple of her Chosen for opinions on how she's doing her job. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 15:28:49
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I think it is only natural that Bane, as the God of Tyranny, would strive to gain supreme control over all magic and the Weave.
In addition to this, Bane's avatar imprisoned Mystra's avatar in an attempt to gain her powers in the dungeons of Castle Kilgrave during the Time of Troubles.
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-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 15:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I think it is only natural that Bane, as the God of Tyranny, would strive to gain supreme control over all magic and the Weave.
In addition to this, Bane's avatar imprisoned Mystra's avatar in an attempt to gain her powers in the dungeons of Castle Kilgrave during the Time of Troubles.
I think besides Bane trying to gain control of the Weave, other dark deities are trying to do what Bane is doing, such as Cyric. While Shar trying to destroy or capture the Weave despite having the Shadow Weave already. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 01:08:34
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It's simple really.
They we're lovers. Mystra was waiting in the Gates for a lovely dinner with Bane one evening.
"Now, where is he?" She asked sitting on the stair case. She had worked fevioursly all day preparing the fish from the Plane of Water.
After several hours of waiting, she got fed up and left. Leaving them enemies of sorts.
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"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 04:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Slime Lord
It's simple really.
They we're lovers. Mystra was waiting in the Gates for a lovely dinner with Bane one evening.
"Now, where is he?" She asked sitting on the stair case. She had worked fevioursly all day preparing the fish from the Plane of Water.
After several hours of waiting, she got fed up and left. Leaving them enemies of sorts.
That is certainly amusing, Bane and Mystra dating each other?!! Ha! |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 10:28:43
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I wouldn't think that both should have a "good" relationship because they are/were LN/LE. I would not be confused at all if they were just not "getting along well"(as it might be with Red Knight and Bane), but Mystra is 3rd on Bane's "deathlist" and Mystra hates Bane to the core.
Bane wanting to take control over magic makes sense, that's right 
but then I ask myself why he wouldn't have the same problem with Chauntea since control over Life and the embodiment of Toril would be on a larger scale than control over magic
it seems that Cyric is more interested in the shadow weave than in the weave at the moment, isn't he?
and for coupling Bane with Mystra... THAT would've been a "stormy" relationship, wouldn't it? |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 11:41:06
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| I think Cyric wants control of the Shadow Weave so that he can challenge Mystra on even terms. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 17:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Antareana
and for coupling Bane with Mystra... THAT would've been a "stormy" relationship, wouldn't it?
I think the most stormy relationship would be Talos and Umberlee. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 18:53:47
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| Bane did kidnap Mystra during the ToT and try to kill her and take over her portfolio. Twas the fate that Kelemvor, Adon, Midnight, and Cyric saved her from in Shadowdale. Bane apparently hates anyone who has ever defeated him, or even made minor transgressions, i.e. Torm, Mystra, Cyric, the list goes on. Let's just say Bane holds a grudge for a long time. Midnight (the current Mystra) fought him as a mortal, and continues to do so now that she's attained godhood. In her attempts to become a "better" Mystra, she probably would have lightened up on Bane had he allowed it, but his hatred of her keeps them at odds with each other. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 10:27:16
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oh yes, you hit the score, Wooly 
as for Mystra... I understand why the new Mystra and Bane hate each other, that's not the problem ^^
They have had enough "troubles" with each other AND the new Mystra is "good"
But they were enemies long before the ToT and it confuses me why that was so.. |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 11:32:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Antareana
oh yes, you hit the score, Wooly
as for Mystra... I understand why the new Mystra and Bane hate each other, that's not the problem ^^
They have had enough "troubles" with each other AND the new Mystra is "good"
But they were enemies long before the ToT and it confuses me why that was so..
Again, tyranny and wanting to freely share magic are kinda inexclusive concepts. |
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 08:31:51
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ok, since I cannot remember any god in Faerun that hates magic, that would explain Mystras "little problem"
But wouldn't Bane prefer trying to control or suppress Mystra than fighting her to death(I always thought that this was the reason why he captured her in the ToT) for her death would only produce a new Mystra |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 11:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Antareana
ok, since I cannot remember any god in Faerun that hates magic, that would explain Mystras "little problem"
But wouldn't Bane prefer trying to control or suppress Mystra than fighting her to death(I always thought that this was the reason why he captured her in the ToT) for her death would only produce a new Mystra
Most deities don't replicate when they die. If he had killed her, there's a good chance he could have stolen her portfolio. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 11:23:27
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In some ways its actually abit odd in 1ed Semmoeon (and maybe Manshoon)had both Mystra AND Bane listed as their patron deities so the 2 are not mutually exclusive.
It doesnt help that most of Mystra chosen sit at the opposite end of Banes alignment (ie CG) and have been involved in the creation of organisations that oppose Banes clergy and followers ie the Harpers
Its actually rather suprising that Blackstaff didnt end up becoming Mystra 1.0 "favoured Chosen" as his alignment is exactly the same as the goddess LN Elminster is CG |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 11:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Antareana
ok, since I cannot remember any god in Faerun that hates magic, that would explain Mystras "little problem"
But wouldn't Bane prefer trying to control or suppress Mystra than fighting her to death(I always thought that this was the reason why he captured her in the ToT) for her death would only produce a new Mystra
Most deities don't replicate when they die. If he had killed her, there's a good chance he could have stolen her portfolio.
That means if Bane successfully slays Mystra and take over over portfolio, then Bane will be the god of Strife and god of magic as well? But I have a few questions to ask about if the Bane really slays Mystra, then some of the questions about what will happen after Bane usurps Mystra's portfolio:
1) Will Bane follow the restrictions and rules that were formerly placed on the Goddess of Magic if Bane succeeds Mystra as the new god of magic? Or will Ao intervene?
2) Will the Chosen of The Realms accept Bane as the new god of magic? Or will Bane remove their powers as they had been fighting his followers
3) Will Azuth rebel against the new god of magic?
My thanks go to any who answers the 3 questions I listed. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 12:15:16
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1) He'd have to as he has to provide Magic to everyone its the rules and Bane as Lawful deity would follow them ie everyone has access to magic however Bane could make a new rule. If your a wizard/Sorcerer and but follow a deity other than me then its business as ussual, however if your a Wizard/Sorcerer and your also a follower of Bane then Ill let you cast 10th, 11th and 12th level spells (minus Karse instant god spell)
2) Most of the Chosen are CG the complete oppsosite of Banes Alignment LE so its likely they couldnt or wouldnt work with Bane and its likely Bane would strip them of their chosen powers and create new ones maybe Manshoon or Semmmemon Bane has plenty of Wizards in his service thanks to the Zhentarim. Stripping the current crop of Chosen of there powers also has the added bonus of killing off a group of Banes most vehment and Dangerous enemies most if not all of Mystas chosen have outlived there mortal life expectency and its likely that its only the Chosen status thats keeping them alive.
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 16:05:44
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Sings the song of Netheril
There once was a man
who reached for the heaven
that is our lady magic
And so he stands as Stone
One must not forget why our lady Mystra is here. The last time someone tried to up set the balance of the world, the late goddess of magic Mystryl sacrificed herself. And so, the desert/crater of Anauroch is a constant reminder that there must be balance in the world, or else it shall laspe into nothingness. Mystra's purpose is to maintain that balance.
Consider Bane, a tyrant in every right, recently born through the body of Xvim. It takes not a sage to figure that Bane wants conquest of magic. But that's exactly why he must kill Mystra. Mystra herself is responsible for ensuring that magic itself is never unbalanced. For Bane to control too much magic would upset everything, and so their goals are opposite.
sings
Where once the was one Xvim
The now stands the tyrant Bane
From Zhentil keep his prowls for power
For the north it shall come, pray for thee |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 17:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
Khelben is a lot older than that. I think he was in Myth Drannor before the mythal was raised. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 21:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
Khelben is a lot older than that. I think he was in Myth Drannor before the mythal was raised.
Yes. You can add a lot more years to Elminster's age. And I think that Khelben is 600-700.
But that was A LITTLE OUT OF TOPIC
Just had to answer.. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 22:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Elminster is around 800-900 years old, Backstaffs probably around 500 years old and most of the seven sisters would around 300 years old. All of them are way older than the 100-120 years a Humans suppose to live to
Elminster is over 1200 actually. Khelben was born in 414 so he's 960. The Seven Sister's are older then 300 since Laeral, being the fifth sister, is 609 since she was born in 765. |
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Edited by - Kuje on 11 Jul 2005 22:44:07 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 00:08:44
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I was going off the old Grey box set that says Elminster is around 800 years old
In any case if Bane where to pull the "Chosen life support" all of Mystras chosen would die (possiably with excpetion of Sylune as shes Undead) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 01:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I was going off the old Grey box set that says Elminster is around 800 years old
Elminster entered Cormanthor around 241 DR. We can assume that he was in his mid 20's or very early 30's by that point, so that would throw his birth year to around 220's-210's DR. Using that as a base, Elminster is 1,133+ years old.
He may have even been a little younger than that again...
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Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jul 2005 01:59:12 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 06:48:05
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| Thanks to all who replied to my questions, but what about the deities that formerly served Mystra such as Azuth, will Azuth accept Bane as the New god of magic and serve him like he served Mystra? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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RedStrike
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 07:30:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thanks to all who replied to my questions, but what about the deities that formerly served Mystra such as Azuth, will Azuth accept Bane as the New god of magic and serve him like he served Mystra?
It is unlikely Azuth will serve bane despite bane's status as the new god of magic, given that both have different alignments. |
We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures that we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 15:06:37
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Azuth might be Lawful neutral, but he was a friend and lover of the Old Mystra, and he is the trusted advisor and instructor of the current Mystra, so I doubt that Azuth would work will with Bane if ever he gained Mystra's portfolio. I don't know enough about Savras, but Velsharoon is a petty little mercenary so I'm sure he would transfer his allegience.
Now, as to if Bane actually could get the portfolio . . . Its not a matter of alignment. I have a hard time thinking that a Lawful evil god would be able to be open to teaching magic to all that have the talent, but it is possible. But Bane has a lot of responsibilities, and the god of Magic is a special position within the pantheon, one that may not allow for other portfolios. |
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Bane and Mystra
