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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Feb 2005 : 19:23:34
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Hello, I was planning on developing a temple to Finder Wyvernspur for my campaign and was wondering if you guys might be able to help with a few things as I think of them.
1) Where in Faerun should it be? (I was planning on a town or city temple, but I'm not sure what which city/town it should be? Where would be a good place to find the temple?)
2) Should the Temple have a second purpose? If so, what? (I have had thoughts about the temple also working as a tavern, a festhall or a theatre.)
Another key thing about the temple is a portal that at least leads to The Gates of the Moon. Perhaps even elsewhere. (It's one of my twists.)
Thanks.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2005 : 19:48:56
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Well not very well known to me, it appears that Waterdeep has a temple (based on web search) which would make it posible for a temple to be located any place where there are enough worshipers.
As for duel purpose temple, search indicates profile is "The cycle of life, transformation of art, saurials" which offers to be the concept of a art classes and art display. Also based on holy symbol "A white harp on a grey circle" the idea of music hall, at least for harps, comes to mind.
Perhaps others can help you more. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 00:08:26
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That's interesting. I have been fighting the temptation of placing it in Cormyr (due to the connection) or Sembia (Due to the irony of a Sembian Temple to a god who had once been kin to a Cormyrian noble.
One idea is to place the temple in a region with characters with some performance abilities (Like Rogues or Bards) or with artistic/craft based feats/regional feats. (Like Waterdeep and Western Heartlands are. There are shrines and temples there.
Another idea is the fact that a temple would either have to be based out of another business (Sorta like the Tempus shrine in the Twisted Tower in Shadowdale) or have a business connection to help it grow.
Powers and Pantheons mentioned that the church of Finder tends to find places where art can be displayed (A festhall for a dancer, a tavern for a bard, a storefront for a potter, etc.), then let's them sink or swim. That has encouraged people to pray to him.
Another thing I have been thinking about is the type of characters might be interested in Finder. For instance, Bards and entertainment-connected rogues would be common clergy. But what about Wizards who might have hobbies or might want to transform the ART. Or other characters who have crafts they might see as art? Would weapon/Armor smithing be seen as an art?
Half-elves might be attracted to him, but might there be elves that follow him (Perhaps a reaction to his slaying of Moander, a major evil to elves?). Would Planetouched (Especially Tieflings), Half-orcs and other outsides be drawn to his reinvention aspect? Perhaps more attracted to a netrual god of such than a good god of reinvention like Lathander?
Just some ideas.
Thanks again. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 08:07:33
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From the consolidated List of Known Temples, Finder has two temples (one of which may or may not be official):
Finder Wyvernspur
The Singing Cave (The Lost Vale)
The Silver Song (Waterdeep)<not sure if this is official>
I don't know if this is helpful to you but I figured you might like to know where some of his temples already are.
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 09:22:24
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a temple of finder might be placed not only in towns or cities but at every oft-traveled road.
open a new inn beside the moonsea ride (through mistledale) or the northride (which passes finders keep (south of the spiderhoaunt woods), don´t know what it has to do with the god  ) or any other route for commerce. beside the inn, establish a small temple for finder, or even better, let the inn itself be the temple, where bards perform each night. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2005 : 17:14:27
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I have been thinking about the idea. I have come to five locations that might be interesting to have a temple/shrine to Finder. They are:
Cormyr--Immersea
Cormyr--Arabel
Dalelands--Mistledale
Sembia--Daerlun
Silver Marches--Silverymoon
Also I have been looking at the priesthood and the connected arts. The Performace skill is only granted as a class skill to Bards, Rogues and Monks (The last being highly unlikely). So it is likely that Clerics with skills in perform would have to be Cleric/Rogues or Clerics/Bards and be member of the Halflings, Humans, Half-elves, or Tieflings races. Unless you take the experience penalty. (Which brings up the question, is the penalty so bad?)
More common would be a mix of bards with skills in perform and clerics with skills in the different craft options. (I have counted nine minimium Perform skills, Twenty three minimium arts skills and a couple of skills that could be used in the arts.) That should allow for a variety.
Mr. Greenwood in his 2004 Candledeep sage thread answered a question that there was a temple/shrine to Finder in Waterdeep. But he mentioned that it was more a backroom temple which functioned as a tavern (I think). He called the Finder religion a backroom cult.
Another idea I had was the possiblity that Finder's faith might have a sizable following on the plans, as Joel's book (From Finder's Bane and Tymora's luck) has spread the faith to the planes. Possible to the planetouched and kinds that live there.
Just kicking some ideas around. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 23:31:20
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I have been developing the idea of the clergy of Finder Wyvernspur and more in depth look at his development. Here is the look at the ideas that I have.
I can see two strong artistic path that of Craft (An intellgence skill) and that of Perform (A charisma skill). Depending on the focus point, you might spend ability boosts to intellect or charisma. When not focus on wisdom for clerics. Which also makes the choices for magic items that they might work on or look for would be those that boost Int, Wis, and Cha.
Other magic items that might be found in the church of Finder: Magical Instruments, Armour boosters (As it seems that in 2ed and 3ed that these clerics might like the range of motion given by lighter armour.), and skill boosting items.
Common multiclassing choices would be the Harper PrCl (Agent, Cleric and Mages), Bards and Rogues (The latter allows Chaotic alignments and use of the Perform skill).
Now for places to use as bases for temples and shrines:
Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Dragon Coast, Impiltlur, the North, Silverymoon, the Vast, Waterdeep, and the Western Heartlands.
The reason is these are lands that accept bards and holds many of the ally gods or similar gods. Also many are places of trade.
Since all temples seem to have a secondary purpose, even if a small one, these are what I have come up with: shop, inn, tavern, festhall. The perfect places for a new artist to be given a chance to sink or swim. There for getting them to add Finder to their list of favourite gods.
Which is the idea of spreading the word of a lesser god. Get them to at least speak your god's name from time to time. In Finder's case that would be in relation to performing, crafting, growing and nurturing the environment, or doing something reckless or foolish. Like adventuring, under his name as God of Reckless Fools.
Just some ideas. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 00:02:19
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Yes, more love for Finder Wyvernspur is definitely something Faerun needs, ahem.
Your ideas sound pretty sound, as a fact in my campaigns several shrines have shot up in most of the locations you mentioned.
I also like the idea of secondary purposes suited for bards. Furthermore, I think you touched on a prime point, that being Finder´s role as the God of Reckless Fools, which of course means his name might very well be spread around by adventurers doing grand deeds while carrying his name upon their lips. It also shouldn´t be forgotten, that Finder might appeal to a darker side of hero, too. A character that is willing to dare fate and believes in himself strongly (and maybe too strongly), very well qualifies as a reckless fool and since Finder has some ego issues, that could b a trait of some of his followers too.
Furthermore, since Finder is pretty close with Tymora (unless that changed in 3E), there might also be a working relationship established between the clergies in some places (since anyone who is a truly reckless fool diesn´t gave Tymora´s name on his lips next to Finder´s).
An idea that panned out well in my campaigns were also a shrine built in Tethyr and one built in Undermountain, truly reckless ideas that caused some major trouble but go along well with the "devil may care"-attitude. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 00:21:29
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Interesting, Dart Ambermoon.
Tethyr is another bard location, so it might work. I was just gun shy due to the anti-harper feelings there in the books of Ms. Cunningham.
Also as Ed has says, except in special situations, one doesn't have one god above all others. (Exceptions are divine casters and the young.) So it is possible that a reckless fool will pray to Tymora and Finder. In fact due to the allance between them, their worshippers might ask the boon of both. (Think of the link of Tempus (war) and the Red Knight (Stradigy).)
Also it has come up on the Wiz board that the City of Elvetree (Sp?) in the Moonsea might be a place for Finderites. But I would keep them as underground artist/Freedom fighters due to Finderites troubles with Tyrants and Banites.
Thoughts? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 00:43:21
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Id put it in Waterdeep (due to Danilo Thann reopening the Bard College) or one of the other places where the old Bard Colleges where found.
Elaine gives away most of the old Bard college locations in Elf Song and I seem to recall there was a thread on this site where Eric Boyd suggested a few more suitable locations for the remaining colleges |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 00:48:35
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MR. Greenwood already mentioned a Temple in Waterdeep and there is a Fan created one on the net. I was looking for other locations. I was also using this to develop the Finder Faith. I also hoped that my ideas might help out those who worship demigods or lesser gods.
Thanks for the idea. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 01:02:23
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| I wouldnt make Finders church to big, after all not long ago Finder only had 2 priests. I wouldnt picture Finders church being much bigger than a say 2-3 Temples and 7-10 Shrines scattered over Faerun |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 01:22:50
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It has been about five years since the beginnings of the church period. (Compared to the Wandering years of Finder.) About half the time Finder wondered. So it is possible that the church has developed more in the human world. (Worship, if not clergy, is common in the Saurial world.)
Plus there has been main boosts in visiblity in just 1368.
First is the book of Joel's adventures with Finder in the Hand of Bane affair. It is possible that it has been replicated in various versions. Some of which could have entered the realms.
Second, for a time, Finder and Selune held Tymora's power to adventurers. While she was being drained by Lathander and Xvum.
Those might have spread the word of the god to places where clerics might not have headed. Letting the Whisperings, as I call it, of his names being heard. The idea of the portfolios and the image of the God of Reckless Fools. The Whispering of his name next to those they also call. Like Tymora and Lathander.
Of course the clergy is likely under a thousand souls (About a 485 saurials at least call his name in prayers of rememberance of their freedom and life in the realms.) I would guess that the levels in temples would be about 8 (Like Copperblossom) and less, excpet in special cases. Waterdeep might merit a 10+.
Of course Adventuring clergy might be higher. Depending on the chance they might be living interesting lives, they might even be epic. Rare but possible.
So even if it started with two clerics it might have grown. (There were eight junoir clerics of level 2 of Chantea and Finder in the Saurial articale a while back.)
It is likely that there will be a small number of temples (20-), a number of major shrines, and many mini, personal shrines. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 02:46:00
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I'm inclined to go with Dargoth's numbers. Finder simply hasn't been around long enough to have more than a handful of temples, if that many. And any temples he does have would be small affairs -- it takes time to gather enough of a following to get a temple like the House of the Moon in Waterdeep.
Even if he and his followers were actively recruiting every artistic type they found, the powerbase just hasn't had enough time to grow very large. Their resources certainly wouldn't be all that impressive... |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 02:56:58
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I would have to acgree if you were thinking of temples the size of the major temples of Waterdeep, like the House of the Moon.
But I wasn't thinking of temples that size. Magic of Faerun did suggest that etmples could be smaller. Like a one room temple in the back of a business like suggested by Mr. Greenwood. The closest to that I can point out is the temple/shrine of Shar in Faith and Pantheons.
Basically it's a large room in the Lighthouse with a symbol of the diety and a room for clerical supplies. With a bonus of a portal, but nothing complex.
So these smaller temples are easier to build than those of the Catherials of faith like the House of the Moon. Put up a piece of art to represent Finder and you have a temple. Like the tiny shrine they had at my Catholic high school. Confessions were done in the library and big masses were in the gym, but there was a mini-chapel in the school for worship.
Of course there mini-temple are easier to destroy, to hide and to rebuild as well. Plus there is the possiblity of room sharing with other temples, like those of Selune and Tymora.
Just some more of my thoughts. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 18:58:19
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Well...I would say very few actual temples (Lost Vale, Waterdeep), but maybe several more small shrines (Bard Collegs work really fine as location), where there needn´t actually be any priests around. That would have been my idea. So that it is still quite reclusive. I wouldn´t say that there are Finder priests popping up by the dozens (although one day they shall...harr)!
I very much agree on the idea of small shared spaces in temples to Tymora and Selune. So overall I would agree with Dargoth´s numbers, too, yet there might be a couple more smallish shrines in shared locations.
As for Elventree, I dunno. You could start with a bunch of Tymora/Selune/Finder-worshipping adventurers there as NPC´s, who might (over time and active participation in the freedoom fights) build a shrine there.
So all in all, Finder´s clergy should be small, but blossoming *ahem*. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2005 : 22:27:47
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Just a quick question or two:
How High do you think the level of a cleric of Finder in a temple might be? What about in the field, having major adventures?
Do you think that Favored Souls are common in the church of Finder? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2005 : 22:00:54
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I have been working on the idea of Finders (The PrCl for Finder Wyvernspur worshippers). I was looking for something that might fit Bards, Clerics and Bard/Clerics. But I am stumped in many places.
Req:
Skills: Perform (Any) 2rnks, Craft (Any) 4rnks
Feat: Exotic Weapons(Bastard Sword)
Spellcasting: (I was thinking about making it something like cast
Cure Serious Wounds spells as both bards and clerics can cast
that spell at about the same level.)
Patron: Finder Wyvernspur
Base Attack Bonus:Average
Fort Save: Poor
Ref Save: Good
Will Save: Good
Weapons/Armor: None (But I want to make it so that light armor is perfered.
HD:d6
Skill points per level: 4 + Int
Skills:
Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Perform, Spellcraft,
Profession, Listen, Slieght of hand, Tumble, Knowledge (Arcana,
History, Religion, Nature),
Class Feature:
2nd:Creative Fire: Character may add their Finder Level to checks on Craft or Perform skills (From Lathander's Morninglord, but it also suits Finder and his cleric and/or Bard followers.
10th: Finder's path: One per day, character can cast Discern Location as spell, caster level equal to spellcaster level.
I am trying to come up with ideas as well as make it fair and balance. I had thought about a Charisma boost ever other level or so. I also want to make at least 10 level of the PrCl.
Help would be welcomed. Thanks.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 27 Sep 2005 23:14:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2005 : 22:44:34
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| Have you consulted the write-up for his specialty priests in Powers & Pantheons? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2005 : 23:12:22
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The fact that there is aspects of the specialty Priests that might not translate well to 3ed. But I have been using that as a source of some of the ideas that I have put into this Prestage Class.
Like a bonus Non-weapon Proficience of Direction, Singing and Musical Instrument (Harp). But it is possible that Perform could be a class skill or Survival could be one as well but the bonus to Survival with Knowledge(Nature) might fit better.
Another possiblity might be that a high level (9th or 10th) gaining a Discern Location Spell once per day as caster level equal to spellcaster level. (I don't know if a 8th level spell at that level is balance, though.)
It is tricky. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2005 : 15:18:33
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I have stopped the Pretage Class for now. But my ideas are still developing. One idea is the thought of having a couple (1-10 at max for the moment) of Satyrs being attracted to the faith. Finder is some what of Nature Bardic god that might attract these characters. Most of them would be bards (Their favourite class), but there could be a cleric or two.
Another ideas is that one of the best levels for the head of a church that Adventurers uses is level seven with the Renewal Domain. At that level they gain access to the Reincarnate Spell. Plus if Good alignment or Neutral with a positive energy choice, they can convert spells into cure spells.
I was also thinking about the possiblity of Bardic Tutelage Region in CoV could be connected to the Church of Finder. It would make sense for churchs like the Finder faith and others (Milil, Oghma, Denier, Etc) to have this region due to the number of bards connected to them. Including Cleric bards.
Also the fact that bards could be members of the higher clergy. (Possible at higher level due to converting from another faith.) They have cure spells like cleric with would give them the edge with healing. It would makes sense for places where clerics might be rare. Like at lonely shrine, with great acoustics.
Just some thoughts. Opinions? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2005 : 15:26:36
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| A thought on consecrating the place... As Finder is a pretty new diety, you might consider having one of his former blood-relatives or constructs come attend the opening. Also, it would be perhaps possible to have a statue(s) of Finder about the place. If I recall, he WAS a vain SOB. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2005 : 01:17:37
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Here's my attempt at Prestage Class for Finder. If your curious to why I didn't add the Finder Specific Spells, I was saving that for the Initate Feat. If I can learn to convert spells from 2ed to 3.5ed.
Enjoy.
Finders of Finder Wyvernspur
These are the artistic priest of Finder that have devoted themselves to the powers of the arts
and their transformation. They have devloped their skills to different creative skills and to skills
in performance.
Those that take this Prestage Class the most often are Bards, Clerics and Bard/Clerics. Though
Favored Souls and Wizards with the right Skills and Feats can take it as well.
HD:d6
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spell/Day, Spell/Known
1 0 0 2 2 Bardic Music +1 level of Existing Class
2 1 0 3 3 Skills of the Artist +2 +1 level of Existing Class
3 2 1 3 3 New Domain +1 level of Existing Class
4 3 1 4 4 Bonus Feat +1 level of Existing Class
5 3 1 4 4 Skills of the Artist+4 +1 level of Existing Class
6 4 2 5 5 Stone's Light +1 level of Existing Class
7 5 2 5 5 +1 level of Existing Class
8 6 2 6 6 Skills of the Artist+6 +1 level of Existing Class
9 6 3 6 6 Bonus Feat +1 level of Existing Class
10 7 3 7 7 +1 level of Existing Class
Requirements:
Skills: Perform(Any) 2 ranks, Craft(Any Artistic) 4 ranks
Feats:Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Skill Focus(Perform (Any))
Patron:Finder Wyvernspur
Special: Must have made Pilgrimage to "The Singing Cave", in the Desertsmouth Mountains
Skills: Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int),Knowledge(History)(Int), Knowledge(Religion)(Int), Perform(Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft(Int), Tumble(Dex)
Skill points: 4 + Int per level
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The character gains no new Weapon or Armour Proficiency.
Spells per Level/Spells Known: At each Finder level, the character gains new spells per day/known as if they had also gained a level in their spellcasting class they belonged to before becoming a Finder. They do not gain any other bonus (Turn undead, Bonus feats) unless stated otherwise. If the character has more than one character class that is eligibale for this, only one class gains the spells per day/known. The player must choose one.
Bardic Music:This is the same as the Class ability of the bard with one extra use per level of Finder.
This stacks with the same ability in other class (Ie. Bard). A Finder with out bard levels still needs to
have the needed Perform ranks to use their powers.
Skills of the Artist:At 2nd, A Finder gains a +2 bonus to skill checks of the following skills: Bluff, Craft, Perfom, Sleight of Hands and Tumble checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level, and +6 at 8th level.
New Domain:At 3rd level, A Finder gains a new Domain from this list: Chaos, Charm, Renewal, Scalykind
Bonus Feat:At 4th level, a Finder gains a bonus Item Creation Feat due to their skills in creation. Common choices are Forge Rings and Craft Wonderous Item.
Stone's Light:At 6th level due to the symbolic link with the artifact used by Finder (The Finder's Stone), A Finder can use "Find the Path" once per day. Their caster level equals their character level. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 25 Dec 2005 01:18:48 |
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ferratus
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 19:08:24
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I have to admit, I like Finder the character, but I hate Finder the God. I also think that Moander is too cool to be kept down, so it is time for him to be ressurected.
So I'm figuring it is time to bump Finder down from a demi-power to a quasi-power. The seed in Finder's blood (like Akabar bel Akash's), the phylactery of a dracolich, plus a living but ancient and diseased treant sound like suitable ingredients for his ressurection. This will be sponsered by Lolth to serve the function of filling out the drow pantheon, making them manichean equals to the Seldarine and thus paving the way for Lolth's worship among the surface elves.
As a quasi-power, Finder can find a new life as a powerful servitor for Oghma, Selune or Tymora. I just don't see the need for Finder when we have 3 bardic gods already Oghma, Denier, and Millil. Plus, we already have a god of new beginnings and rebirth, Lathander. So what purpose does Finder serve? |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 19:32:58
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Basically, I am not against the resurrection of Moander. But it doesn't mean that Finder needs bumping down in power. With Moander up, Finder becomes more important as a force of against Moander. Also Lolth would not resurrect Moander unless she couldn't take his power for herself. Then she would only do it if she had complete power over him/her/it.
Also I don't see why you don't like the god. The God is Finder the character. His new life is expanded in the Lost God book. He's basically the same only with amore good tilt. Unless you like only the Selfish Finder of the Finder's Stone Trilogy and given Song of the Saurials he would likely not be that character any longer.
Also there are a lot more bardic gods than Oghma, Finder, Deneir and Milil. Sune, Lliira, and Sharess also promote bards and bardic clerics. Plus there are other gods who promote cycle of life, renewal and Scalykind but I don't see you deleting them.
Finder has much potential. One I promote is as a possible god of Redeemption. Or Misfits. Perhaps as a servent of Lathander, lending sound advice to the God of the Young and Irrational. He is also one of the few non-evil scalykind gods. Bringing up conflict with other dark scaly ones.
Still if you want to delete Finder, you can. It's just that I think that you have wasted potential. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Developing a Temple to Finder
