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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 19:01:42
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We seem to be running into a bit of a problem in our campaign when we start to get to around tenth level. It seems to us that the attack bonus rises so much faster than AC that once you hit those levels, everything almost always hits and it's just a contest to see who can do the most damage first. I think this is because we don't have high powered magic weapons and armour as readily available as the rule books would suggest. I think we should be compensating for attack bonus with big magic armour, but because we operate at about 1/2 to 2/3 character wealth, that isn't happening. If anybody has any more experience at these levels, I would really appreciate suggestions on what is actually happening here.
My other thought was that maybe our fighters are just not using defense actions and raising AC with feats enough. I've not played a fighter in this system, just as a DM, so I don't know if it's possible to offset the problem that way. We have not had anybody make a light fighter either and it does'nt seem to me that one would be able to do enough damage to be effective at those levels.
We use lower character wealth because it seems to fit our vision of Faerun better and holds to previously established elements from before 3rd edition. We really don't want to start allowing PCs to walk into towns and start perusing the DMG to see what they want to buy there. We can commission spellcasters for enchantments, ect, but that is quite a bit slower than the system's expectation of AC aquisition.
Has anyone experienced this problem? What are we doing wrong here?  
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Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 21:35:55
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Well I would recommend checking out page 64 in the DMG (Attack Rolls) to get some ideas at what could be done to tweak those rolls.
As it where I had a longer reply but for some unobvious reason the computer decided to just restart. |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 22:08:18
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What strikes me as best to do is recalculate Encounter levels, because of decreased wealth the level 10 Fighter is not a CR 10 as would be one with average wealth.
The theory that was presented by one is that wealth is a factor of the CR.
The formular offered is this.
((Character Level + LA [If any])*2 + Character Wealth/3 )/2
This should at least help solve the problem to some extent, thr encounters would for safety reasons indicate lower CR foes which also will slow leveling for the PCs and could perhaps aid them in gaining wealth closer to what is advisved.
Edit: Corrected formular, forgot to double the base level.
http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/equip.htm provides a calculator and fuller explainatin of this CR theory.
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Edited by - Kentinal on 20 Jan 2005 01:55:14 |
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oldskool
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 10:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
What strikes me as best to do is recalculate Encounter levels, because of decreased wealth the level 10 Fighter is not a CR 10 as would be one with average wealth.
I have to respectfully disagree here, Kentinal... In my experience, a party of four level 10 PCs routinely win against CR 12-15. And this is with a mage/psion, a mage/rogue, a low-armor cleric, and a monk/psion. Not a lot of AC here. Granted, I do use normal wealth levels, but rarely are the PCs even badly damaged...
And often, the PCs have to commission items (with a week or two week delay OR MORE, in-game) rather than picking them up at some Monty Bazaar.
It is an interesting question, however. I'm sure everyone has their own experience as how to the AC/attack roll/wealth/magic equation works out in their own games.
But in general, to threaten a typical 3.5 or 3.0 edition party, I have to REALLY tweak the NPCs or monsters to 6-8 CRs above what they would normally fight.
oldskool |
DM: "You see a gazebo ahead of you."
Player: "What is it doing? I draw my weapon and charge!"
DM: "It's not doing anything. It's a gazebo."
Player: "Oh.. um. Then I'll cast a fireball at it!" |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 15:48:33
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It depends how the fighters are set up, since there are so many different types of fighters.
With what I affectionately call a Chunkmonster (named after a half-orc barbarian) you can get the AC astronomically high within a few levels and minimum magical equipment.
Stick him in some full plate, give him a tower shield and combat expertise.
Add into that a couple of low level spells, barkskin and shield of faith.
All of a sudden you have a fighter who even in a party of lvl 5s will have a max ac of 32! (Higher at lvl 10 with improved shield of faith and barkskin, haste and other spells too). This is without any magical items.
Not sure what other feats there are out there to make this even higher, dodge is one.
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 19:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by oldskool
But in general, to threaten a typical 3.5 or 3.0 edition party, I have to REALLY tweak the NPCs or monsters to 6-8 CRs above what they would normally fight.
oldskool
Yikes!
If you have the time could you provide an example? I run a party of 4 14th level PC's and typically a CR 14 (that should be a moderate challenge) can seriously challenge them without any modifications. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 19:58:19
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There certainly can be different play styles.
The character builds could be different as well.
In might be good to see examples or more detail from Mareka as well. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 20:17:10
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| Keep in mind as well that not every CR should be designed to soak up 100 percent of the party's resources. They should be able to get through a few CR's of the same party level just fine. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 20:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Keep in mind as well that not every CR should be designed to soak up 100 percent of the party's resources. They should be able to get through a few CR's of the same party level just fine.
I do understand this.
http://nazaire.home.insightbb.com/calculator.htm
Is an ecounter level calculated and estimated how difficult an event normally is.
This site adds this warning. "A further caution: EL and CR become less and less reliable the further the PCs differ in stats from '25 point buy / standard array'. However there's no agreement on exactly how much of an impact this has."
The stats array of the party members also might be a factor.
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 21:22:06
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I'll post more detail about the fighters in our campaign and the optional rules we're using a little later when I get home.
Another question though: Do you folks think that if all PC's, NPC's, and critters were at 1/2 wealth it would keep everyone on an equal footing, or do you think the BAB would be to high vs AC? Even without the extra enhancement bonus from the magic weapon? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2005 : 21:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Another question though: Do you folks think that if all PC's, NPC's, and critters were at 1/2 wealth it would keep everyone on an equal footing, or do you think the BAB would be to high vs AC? Even without the extra enhancement bonus from the magic weapon?
The first problem I see is not all critters have wealth, at least as equipment. The NPC fighter can have a +1 sword and use it, the Dire Wolf might have an +1 sword about its lair, however certainly can not use it.
Take away the sword from both the NPC fighter gets easier to beat the Dire Wolf however retains the same difficulty. So equal footing can not be maintained in this case. I indeed can see that many with reduced wealth would be on equal footing, however certainly not all.
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oldskool
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 00:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
quote:
Originally posted by oldskool
But in general, to threaten a typical 3.5 or 3.0 edition party, I have to REALLY tweak the NPCs or monsters to 6-8 CRs above what they would normally fight.
oldskool
Yikes!
If you have the time could you provide an example? I run a party of 4 14th level PC's and typically a CR 14 (that should be a moderate challenge) can seriously challenge them without any modifications.
Well, recently the party fought a series of dragons (see "Seeking input on a complex campaign" under Running the Realms for the situation)... there were 3 of them, all mature adult dragons, one black, the next white, and then a green. The green was a CR 16, and the party killed it after surviving and slaying the first two in open battle.
I am thinking that whoever balanced the EPH psionics rules did not concieve of psions with headbands of intellect being able to dish out BLAST after BLAST of high-powered energy attacks. Makes our mage look kind of wussy. This may be a large part of the problem.
oldskool |
DM: "You see a gazebo ahead of you."
Player: "What is it doing? I draw my weapon and charge!"
DM: "It's not doing anything. It's a gazebo."
Player: "Oh.. um. Then I'll cast a fireball at it!" |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 01:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by oldskool
I am thinking that whoever balanced the EPH psionics rules did not concieve of psions with headbands of intellect being able to dish out BLAST after BLAST of high-powered energy attacks. Makes our mage look kind of wussy. This may be a large part of the problem.
oldskool
Well they should have, however not certain psionics rules were ever balanced to the oter classes.
As far as play test goes, there appears that play test ranged (for the most part) level 1 to 15 for core rules.
Of course Epic rules had higher levels involved. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 05:39:02
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Okay, time for examples.
The first one is 10th level, 83 hp, combat expertise, improved combat expertise, improved disarm, improved critical, power attack, weapon focus (long sword), weapon specialization (long sword), quickdraw, mounted combat, ride by attack, and luck of heroes. He wears full plate and a ring of protection +1 and wields a medium shield and a sword of the planes.
Second example: 4th level fighter/7th level ranger with 91 hp, dodge, mobility, spring attack, weapon finesse, weapon focus (hand axe), weapon specialization (hand axe), two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, endurance, improved toughness, foe hunter (orc). He wears +3 mithral chain shirt and wields two +1 hand axes, one flaming and one cold.
We're using the clobbered and critical fumbles rules from the DMG and the Death and Dying rule from Unearthed Arcana.
At a CR of 10 or 11, it consistantly takes 2-3 hits for either the PC or critter/NPC to defeat the other.
The ranger/fighter gets hit a little less often, when he's using his feats and the other could get to an AC 30 and still have a +8 to hit, but usually goes for big damage instead. I think this is because he feels he needs to take down the foe quickly or it will take him out (back to the 2-3 hit thing).
It seems to me that it's the way the fighters are being played, in that more attention could be given to AC in tactics, but because I've not seen it done I just don't know if that would work.
I agree, Kentinal, that critters that don't rely on equipment for their power should be considered a higher CR in relation to PC's who aren't at their recomended wealth. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 06:16:29
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Well from what you indicate the AC has been increasing well to BAB. AC 30 when a starting would have perhaps 15 (depending on wealth) is a larger increase then BAB 1 to hit increased to at most BAB 11.
The tactics appears more a problem then the wealth. I can well understand the desire to take out foes quickly, that is a fighters nature (perhaps the players as well).
The low wealth of course can be a factor, but a solution has alreadt been offered for that to at least try.
The biggest problem I see is the play style. The AC is there, not used as much as it should be.
You might try to teach though the game the use of tactics so that the PCs might learn brute force is not always the best way by using tactics against them. You miht talk to the players that sometimes a quick kill or be kill is not a best tactic. Often player style becomes a factor in the game. You can either adjust to the players desire or get them to play to your stlye. Actually what should occur is a balance between the two. It is a game intented to be fun for all, which makes it at least in part to make the game fun for the players. It does sound like hack and slash cetainly appeal to the two fighter players, not sure about the others in the campaign. So perhaps you should give them (the fighters ) some, however the campaign/adventure/story line also should be incorprated to at least try to get fighters to focus on the larger prise. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 14:08:22
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The paladin in my group has an AC of 39! At level 14 (part of his character is a fist of raziel) its a bit much and he's a bit cocky. So I do a lot of grappling and other things to hurt him when I need to knock his PC down a peg or two. Last time he farted on me to show his displeasure at having been batted about and knocked prone by a mountain troll. Let me assure you I'll have my guard up this weekend!
So..I guess my point is, there are also little things you can do to make the EL fit more to the party like terrain and other obstacles to hamper movement. Cover, nothing drives players crazy than having to deal with cover. Just upping the monster rating every time is just going to escalate the problem as they gain XP and levels you'll just have to keep upping the CR's etc ad infinitum.
As for the "allowing PCs to walk into towns and start perusing the DMG to see what they want to buy there."
A guy named Henry on the ENworld boards came up with this for his FR game about a year or so back:
http://mysteryman.typepad.com/FR%20economics.doc <----right click/save as
I have the original that I cut and pasted off the boards (which I've uploaded to my site for your parusal), but can't find my version on my work pc anywhere! I know where it is on my home pc..but anyway. Take a look and salt and pepper to taste if you find it useful. I know I did. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 00:28:12
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Thanks all. I'm really quite convinced that it is tactics. Looks like if a fighter really used a lot of feats and abilities to keep his AC high it would take longer to defeat a foe but he would take less damage in the process. I'll just have to make my own light, tactical fighter in the next game I play in to confirm this.
Thank you for that link, Elf_Friend. That's a nice system. We usually have a fair amount of potions and scrolls available and then just decide what else might be around based on descriptions of the shops and so on in the area. Between Ed's detail and the recommendations in Races of Faerun it's not to hard to figure what might be appropriate. Add to that a little randomness with a treasure roll. Characters need to Gather Information and such to hunt some things down, though. I think there are other adventurers around who also want to sell their stuff, but I don't think there would be a lot of things kicking around on the open market. |
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oldskool
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 01:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
The paladin in my group has an AC of 39! At level 14 (part of his character is a fist of raziel) its a bit much and he's a bit cocky. So I do a lot of grappling and other things to hurt him when I need to knock his PC down a peg or two. Last time he farted on me to show his displeasure at having been batted about and knocked prone by a mountain troll. Let me assure you I'll have my guard up this weekend!
Here's a tip to humble the characters, along the lines of grappling... Check out the stats on the common Kraken ... +44 on its Grapple checks! Something to spice up your next sea voyage. And keep in mind the kraken's desire for slaves... it may not just be grabbing *food* off the deck...
oldskool |
DM: "You see a gazebo ahead of you."
Player: "What is it doing? I draw my weapon and charge!"
DM: "It's not doing anything. It's a gazebo."
Player: "Oh.. um. Then I'll cast a fireball at it!" |
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Vecna
Acolyte
Turkey
8 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 10:49:49
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Im sick of that Armour class stuff.. it truely sucks.. not realistic nor epic. and if you choose to be unarmored you can expect to be totally smacked up. After a while it turns to which does most damage.. Doing more damage than your opponent makes you victorious.
I use different systems instead of AC. And I and my players are totally content with current system. sure normal chalange ratings change drastically with this system but then again I dont give xp based on chalange ratings. I just reward them with level at the end of each adventure (not session) this is much harder to accomplish (expecially with longer adventures) but it is more realistic.. between the adventures years goes by and we presume characters had the nececerry training to gain a level.. and anyone thinks twice to kill a monster. It is useless as gaining a level so they try to negotiate, evade, escape more often..
the first system I used was. comparing the attack rolls of both combatans (for example: a attacks b, a rolls attack roll and b rolls attack roll, if b totals higher or equal, the attack is parried/dodged , shield bonuses added to this parrying roll.. if a totals higher he hits, then, roll for damage and subtract armor value (based on the armor b wears) than the damage.. this method was effective but. Combats took a long time, to get rid of this problem you can boost weapon damages, like counting them one size larger, thus, d6 for dagger, d10 for long sword 2d8for two handed sword.
the other system I currently use is Conan D20's system it is a great game by the way. and greatest D20 combat system I ever saw.
another system is like this;
http://hyboria.xoth.net/rules/die_stygian_jackal.htm
read it and decide for yourselves..
quote;
"In D20, then, we see that the roles of experience and armor in avoiding damage are oddly reversed: experience absorbs damage, armor makes you harder to hit. To simulate Howard's style of sword and sorcery, we must change this."
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IF THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH, THERE IS NO DEATH.
AND IF DEATH DOES NOT EXIST, WE DO NOT LIVE.
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Edited by - Alaundo on 21 Jan 2005 12:13:05 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 13:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by oldskool
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
The paladin in my group has an AC of 39! At level 14 (part of his character is a fist of raziel) its a bit much and he's a bit cocky. So I do a lot of grappling and other things to hurt him when I need to knock his PC down a peg or two. Last time he farted on me to show his displeasure at having been batted about and knocked prone by a mountain troll. Let me assure you I'll have my guard up this weekend!
Here's a tip to humble the characters, along the lines of grappling... Check out the stats on the common Kraken ... +44 on its Grapple checks! Something to spice up your next sea voyage. And keep in mind the kraken's desire for slaves... it may not just be grabbing *food* off the deck...
oldskool
You should see the advanced deepspawn I pitted against them. Three large tentacles with which to grapple, three heads with which to chew on them.  |
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oldskool
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 21:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Vecna
Im sick of that Armour class stuff.. it truely sucks.. not realistic nor epic. and if you choose to be unarmored you can expect to be totally smacked up. After a while it turns to which does most damage.. Doing more damage than your opponent makes you victorious.
I use different systems instead of AC. And I and my players are totally content with current system. sure normal chalange ratings change drastically with this system but then again I dont give xp based on chalange ratings. I just reward them with level at the end of each adventure (not session) this is much harder to accomplish (expecially with longer adventures) but it is more realistic.. between the adventures years goes by and we presume characters had the nececerry training to gain a level.. and anyone thinks twice to kill a monster. It is useless as gaining a level so they try to negotiate, evade, escape more often..
the first system I used was. comparing the attack rolls of both combatans (for example: a attacks b, a rolls attack roll and b rolls attack roll, if b totals higher or equal, the attack is parried/dodged , shield bonuses added to this parrying roll.. if a totals higher he hits, then, roll for damage and subtract armor value (based on the armor b wears) than the damage.. this method was effective but. Combats took a long time, to get rid of this problem you can boost weapon damages, like counting them one size larger, thus, d6 for dagger, d10 for long sword 2d8for two handed sword.
the other system I currently use is Conan D20's system it is a great game by the way. and greatest D20 combat system I ever saw.
another system is like this;
http://hyboria.xoth.net/rules/die_stygian_jackal.htm
read it and decide for yourselves..
quote;
"In D20, then, we see that the roles of experience and armor in avoiding damage are oddly reversed: experience absorbs damage, armor makes you harder to hit. To simulate Howard's style of sword and sorcery, we must change this."
If you don't like AC due to it discriminating against lower-armored characters, but aren't ready to completely revise 3.5 rules, why not try the system presented in Dragon #301 for Parrying... there are a whole series of feats allowing various levels of parrying attacks, allowing skill to serve in place of armor. (Also, nicely simulating the way in which master swordsmen fence.)
Although in my current campaign it is a little too late to introduce this heavily, I plan to use it as an option in future games.
oldskool |
DM: "You see a gazebo ahead of you."
Player: "What is it doing? I draw my weapon and charge!"
DM: "It's not doing anything. It's a gazebo."
Player: "Oh.. um. Then I'll cast a fireball at it!" |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 22:40:19
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I'v been considering trying the Defense Bonus from Unearthed Arcana. Has anyone tried this? It seems similar to the link Vecna gave. |
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Vecna
Acolyte
Turkey
8 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 23:16:25
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I ve tried both Conan d20 and both the rules which can be found on the link I posted. Both of them works well. Perhaps Conan d20 a little Better.. another rule was
after a character recieves over/equal 20points of damage he must check his fort. save dc= damage/2 +10 if he fails he drops to -1
no matter how many hp he had..
This makes combat fairly quick and deadly..
I like it that way  |
IF THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH, THERE IS NO DEATH.
AND IF DEATH DOES NOT EXIST, WE DO NOT LIVE.
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2005 : 09:31:26
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Can't see yar problem. My lev 21 assassin rivals most deities for AC when fighting defensively 
Actually, the defense bonus rules seem a bit overboard combined with the rest of defensive capabilities... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 20:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Vecna
I ve tried both Conan d20 and both the rules which can be found on the link I posted. Both of them works well. Perhaps Conan d20 a little Better.. another rule was
after a character recieves over/equal 20points of damage he must check his fort. save dc= damage/2 +10 if he fails he drops to -1
no matter how many hp he had..
This makes combat fairly quick and deadly..
I like it that way
Conan d20 uses different classes. Do you use those classes in Faerun, or do you convert the core classes? We picked up the Conan game to check it out, but we're not sure how to assign parry/dodge bonuses to the multitude of classes and prestige classes we use. |
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Help for lower character wealth
