Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Interloper Gods?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Durak
Seeker

68 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2004 :  16:00:38  Show Profile  Visit Durak's Homepage Send Durak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I don't think it is possible to alter time in the Realms... Besides, how would Cyric gain worship? His followers would have no spells or powers for 1700 years. Who's gonna worship a deity who won't be around until that newborn dragon over there has died of old age?




Sorry, i didnt mean that they would convert people back then to Cyris (that was just an example), I meant it as a prelude, so when he does become a god, he can say it was Prophesied backin the Days of Netheril that he would arise. The book wouldnt change anything in the past, but it would affect the present when made known.

Anyway this cant be done is what i am saying cause of the Laws of the Goddess of time at that time, and what i was also saying was maybe their was a law concerning time traveling of a gods' followers not in that region, having to convert to regional gods to get spells.
Wasnt there a theory in some D&D lore that you could change small things in the past, but time itself would wash away these changes.
Eg. You go to Karsus and point out his error, the way TIme would fix this is Karsus would not believe you, or you wouldnt get near him or you get imprisoned. OR you steal an item that seals a certain victory in a certain battle. Time would have it that you get robbed and the item turns up at the time needed through some means, they get caught or they get ambushed and the person who uses the item was in ambush party.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the gods of all the races that arent of the Creator races, or gods of humans from another world/demension/etc, not be classed as interlopers. From that Elven history Novel, Lloth followed the Elven Races to all the worlds they inhabited. But i am not sure if her children did. I am sure from that book a God of faerun, think was The Hunter was destroyed by either Malak or Lloth.

Seems to me some gods are in all realms and others are realm specific.
Go to Top of Page

Ty
Learned Scribe

USA
168 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2004 :  16:16:39  Show Profile  Visit Ty's Homepage Send Ty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kuje,

Thanks for refreshing my memory where I read that bit about Apollo and Tyche. I'm starting to get worried about you though... Recalling in what book, in what edition, and the text of an obscure reference like that? You're starting to scare me...
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2004 :  18:31:38  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ty

Kuje,

Thanks for refreshing my memory where I read that bit about Apollo and Tyche. I'm starting to get worried about you though... Recalling in what book, in what edition, and the text of an obscure reference like that? You're starting to scare me...



When it comes to D&D I seem to recall things very well. :) I don't know how I can recall over 300 sourcebooks and over 300 D&D novels, but I do. Grin which is why I still slug it out on the WOTC boards because I am helpful over there even if I argue with everyone.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 23 Dec 2004 18:33:07
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31632 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2004 :  20:04:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31

quote:
Originally posted by Ty

Kuje,

Thanks for refreshing my memory where I read that bit about Apollo and Tyche. I'm starting to get worried about you though... Recalling in what book, in what edition, and the text of an obscure reference like that? You're starting to scare me...



When it comes to D&D I seem to recall things very well. :) I don't know how I can recall over 300 sourcebooks and over 300 D&D novels, but I do. Grin which is why I still slug it out on the WOTC boards because I am helpful over there even if I argue with everyone.



Now, if only he could remember his first name as readily...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ardashir
Senior Scribe

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2004 :  17:16:23  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for all the responses, esp. about the Finnish gods.

And while it's OT, has anyone ever done any figuring on just when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended? I think there's a heck of a story there if anyone ever cared to tell it.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31632 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2004 :  18:31:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

Thanks for all the responses, esp. about the Finnish gods.

And while it's OT, has anyone ever done any figuring on just when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended? I think there's a heck of a story there if anyone ever cared to tell it.



I don't believe that there's enough information about that to even try to determine a rough timeframe... All we know is that it happened some time after -339 DR (Jergal, Bane's predecessor, was worshipped in Netheril) and before 200 DR, when a temple of Bane in Calimport was destroyed in the Rogue Fires sweeping thru Calimport.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Dec 2004 18:34:52
Go to Top of Page

warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2005 :  10:42:07  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche, who became Beshaba and Tymora...



Tyche wasn't an Interloper God in the Realms, her history is part of the Creation History of the Realms. Her name might be borrowed from the Greeks/Romans, but she was an original member of the Faerunian Pantheon since her creation.


Don't Forget that Oghma is an Interloper, him being a Greater Celtic God.

News of the Weird

D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31632 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2005 :  15:32:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche, who became Beshaba and Tymora...



Tyche wasn't an Interloper God in the Realms, her history is part of the Creation History of the Realms. Her name might be borrowed from the Greeks/Romans, but she was an original member of the Faerunian Pantheon since her creation.


Don't Forget that Oghma is an Interloper, him being a Greater Celtic God.



Actually, yes, she was. Pages 127 and 128 of On Hallowed Ground (a 2E Planescape accessory) explain how she was pushed out of the Greek pantheon, and because of that, she chose to become a single-spheric power in Toril. She may have been around since Toril was young, but she's not a native (though you could argue that her "daughters", Tymora and Beshaba, are native, since they were "born" on Toril).

At least a couple of the Greek gods wonder what happened to her, but since Ao won't let them into Realmspace, they've not yet found out where she is.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jan 2005 15:39:27
Go to Top of Page

warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2005 :  03:20:12  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, could have sworn She was born of Selune, or maybe I was thinking of Tymora. opps

News of the Weird

D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31632 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2005 :  05:59:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

Hmm, could have sworn She was born of Selune, or maybe I was thinking of Tymora. opps



Mystryl (Mystra's predecessor) came from Selūne.

Tymora and Beshaba are the remnants of Tyche. Tyche had become corrupted by Moander, and Selūne saw this and hit Tyche with a blast of her power. This caused Tyche to split into Tymora and Beshaba.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2005 :  08:47:35  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
. . . causing Lathander to get all heartbroken and recently try something that's left Beshaba and Tymora both mildly miffed at him. (Of course, once the sisters realize they agree on something, that'll be a trigger for some grave catastrophe. )

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
Go to Top of Page

warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2005 :  23:57:20  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, just sometimes with all this lore, things gets mixed up in the old skull. And just mildly confused some stuff together. I might have to start making a point of reading the material over every few years instead of once back when it first comes out then shelving it until needed.

News of the Weird

D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2005 :  07:20:07  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, yes, she was. Pages 127 and 128 of On Hallowed Ground (a 2E Planescape accessory) explain how she was pushed out of the Greek pantheon, and because of that, she chose to become a single-spheric power in Toril. She may have been around since Toril was young, but she's not a native (though you could argue that her "daughters", Tymora and Beshaba, are native, since they were "born" on Toril).

That's true. It's also part of the reason why her domain in Olympus has now completely disappeared. Of course, there is some speculation that she possesses a domain somwhere in Arborea that hardly anyone knows about... and that this is where he majority of her power is devoted now.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2018 :  13:47:24  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

So what do you feel leads a deity to officially having influence in an area? Is it a shrine, a temple, one person worshiping, or something else do you feel?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

As to the power of deities in other regions, just look at the contemporary Realms: e.g. A Mulhorandi cleric would still receive spells from his/her deity even when visiting Icewind Dale, just as a paladin of Lathander would receive spells when crusading in Menzoberanzan. A deities powers to grant spells to worshippers are not limied to a culural region - only to 2e crystal shperes and with the new 3.5e planar structure that seems no longer something to be worried about. (see also page 4 of 2e Faiths and Avatars)



Granting spells in a region where there is no influence is not the same as having influence in a region... It's like being a cop traveling in another country. Sure, you've had the training, you've got your skills and your street sense... But you've no jurisdiction to do anything, because you're not a representative of that country's law.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31632 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2018 :  16:38:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

So what do you feel leads a deity to officially having influence in an area? Is it a shrine, a temple, one person worshiping, or something else do you feel?





I would say it being worshipped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2018 :  22:15:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

quote:
I would say it being worshiped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.


To be intentionally pedantic, but not in a trollish or malicious manner:

In the case of Finder Wyvernspur, he had only a handful of Saurial's worshiping him, and he was known enough to be recognized in that area. Do you feel it is just a handful therefor?

What about followers of Mask or Loviatar? They are known for hiding their worship, and would not be "widely" known, thus their being hidden by necessity in order to not be run out of the area. How would it work for that kind of worship?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

So what do you feel leads a deity to officially having influence in an area? Is it a shrine, a temple, one person worshiping, or something else do you feel?





I would say it being worshipped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31632 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2018 :  02:39:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

quote:
I would say it being worshiped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.


To be intentionally pedantic, but not in a trollish or malicious manner:

In the case of Finder Wyvernspur, he had only a handful of Saurial's worshiping him, and he was known enough to be recognized in that area. Do you feel it is just a handful therefor?


Finder had influence in the Lost Vale area. He did not, at least in the mid-1370's, have any real influence anywhere else. He was working on that, but he's got centuries of being a minor regional power ahead of him, unless something major happens.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

What about followers of Mask or Loviatar? They are known for hiding their worship, and would not be "widely" known, thus their being hidden by necessity in order to not be run out of the area. How would it work for that kind of worship?


Hiding their worship and hiding their existence is not the same thing. People have heard of Mask and Loviatar, but that doesn't mean that the average person knows any devotees of those deities.

Remember, deities have to spread the word of the existence, in the Realms -- because if they don't, then no one knows about them, and the deity would thus get no attention. A god that no one knows about becomes a dead god pretty quickly.

Also, with some powers, they aren't as widely worshipped as they are feared and appeased. Umberlee is a great example of this -- she may not have a lot of worshippers, but just about any sailor is going to toss some money her way as appeasement, to keep her from focusing her attention on them. For the gods, there is power in fear.


Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2018 :  14:24:35  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

quote:
Hiding their worship and hiding their existence is not the same thing. People have heard of Mask and Loviatar, but that doesn't mean that the average person knows any devotees of those deities.


I agree, and was curious what your thought was going to be, whether in agreement or not.

I feel it is as easy as simply putting iconography of divine symbols, a few reminders, i.e. stealing, torture marks, a few maimed individuals, a murder, some plague, or whatever, and enough fear throws people into a frenzy. For that reason, I feel it is remarkably easier for deities predicated on fear, hatred, injury, disease, etc. have a much easier chance of spreading their faith and maintaining that belief in them, as survival instincts always take precedence over the good. In fact, I think your point regarding The Bitch Queen is 100% spot on regarding that. That's why my campaigns have a much more prevalent awareness and involvement of evil deities, though they are less worshiped of course.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

quote:
I would say it being worshiped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.


To be intentionally pedantic, but not in a trollish or malicious manner:

In the case of Finder Wyvernspur, he had only a handful of Saurial's worshiping him, and he was known enough to be recognized in that area. Do you feel it is just a handful therefor?


Finder had influence in the Lost Vale area. He did not, at least in the mid-1370's, have any real influence anywhere else. He was working on that, but he's got centuries of being a minor regional power ahead of him, unless something major happens.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

What about followers of Mask or Loviatar? They are known for hiding their worship, and would not be "widely" known, thus their being hidden by necessity in order to not be run out of the area. How would it work for that kind of worship?


Hiding their worship and hiding their existence is not the same thing. People have heard of Mask and Loviatar, but that doesn't mean that the average person knows any devotees of those deities.

Remember, deities have to spread the word of the existence, in the Realms -- because if they don't, then no one knows about them, and the deity would thus get no attention. A god that no one knows about becomes a dead god pretty quickly.

Also, with some powers, they aren't as widely worshipped as they are feared and appeased. Umberlee is a great example of this -- she may not have a lot of worshippers, but just about any sailor is going to toss some money her way as appeasement, to keep her from focusing her attention on them. For the gods, there is power in fear.




Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

bloodtide_the_red
Seeker

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  07:11:45  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always had the fear/acknowledgment/respect count as worship. In the more generic sense, when anyone invokes a deities name and believes in them, it counts as worship. So wishing someone 'Tymora's Luck' counts the same way as saying 'Hope the Dark Sun does not shine on you today'.

Also, I think a lot of people do worship the dark gods. A lot of people worship Mask for example, as a lot of people steal...and not just bandits and pick pockets. Most all races have a 'dark side'.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6699 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  07:47:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realms has a pantheon of deities, belief in any one of them implicitly recognizes the existence of all the others.

To be sure, evil deities don't tend to attract many faithful outside their strongholds. But they are still often invoked by "nonbelievers" for minor benisons/malisons which relate to their portfolios - people might ask Shar for a small "blessing" of forgetfulness, pray that Beshaba's misfortune attends to a competitor, hope that Bane sends a "champion" to impose a sense of strong order within a democratic discord, offer a sacrifice to Umberlee for safe passage of their ships, etc. Evil gods are still gods, lol.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  20:40:28  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker bloodtide_the_red,

I feel that that is a fantastic way to go. It conjures up the notion of the TV series, American Gods, where the All-Father indicates just people mentioning his name keeps him alive. Obviously their dedicated faithful has gone down significantly, yet he is still a god and powerful, somewhat.

I do the same thing myself. In fact, Master Rupert's mention of the Bitch Queen was perfect as that is in fact exactly what I do in small, but important, Realms culture ways.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

I have always had the fear/acknowledgment/respect count as worship. In the more generic sense, when anyone invokes a deities name and believes in them, it counts as worship. So wishing someone 'Tymora's Luck' counts the same way as saying 'Hope the Dark Sun does not shine on you today'.

Also, I think a lot of people do worship the dark gods. A lot of people worship Mask for example, as a lot of people steal...and not just bandits and pick pockets. Most all races have a 'dark side'.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2018 :  20:42:20  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

I completely see your point there. I think that drives at what I was discussing as well. The mere fact that the evil gods are acknowledged, prayed against in prayers to good and other gods, indicates the power that they have through that form of worship/acknowledgement.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The Realms has a pantheon of deities, belief in any one of them implicitly recognizes the existence of all the others.

To be sure, evil deities don't tend to attract many faithful outside their strongholds. But they are still often invoked by "nonbelievers" for minor benisons/malisons which relate to their portfolios - people might ask Shar for a small "blessing" of forgetfulness, pray that Beshaba's misfortune attends to a competitor, hope that Bane sends a "champion" to impose a sense of strong order within a democratic discord, offer a sacrifice to Umberlee for safe passage of their ships, etc. Evil gods are still gods, lol.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000