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Ardashir
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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  15:27:00  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Sorry, but I'm bored and curious.

Just who are they, anyway? I'm working on the basis that the term means those deities that entered the Realms from elsewhere, as compared to 'home grown' gods (like Shar, Mystra, or Cyric).

My list runs at:

Tyr -- Norse God of Justice and Law

Loviatar -- Finnish demoness or goddess, I think.

Talona -- another Finnish deity under her original name of Kiputyyto (Is that how it's spelled?)

And isn't Mielikki originally some Finnish goddess of nature?

Sune -- Aphrodite in the Realms. Guess those medieval stories about her and the Venusberg were baloney. ;)

Lathander -- Is it just me, or is he Apollo? They sure sound a lot alike, or is it just that dawn gods have a lot of similarities?

I also recall the Maztican gods as basically being the Mexica/Nahuatl pantheon. And the origins of the Mulhorand and Untheric deities are pretty obvious.

Did I miss anyone?

Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  16:48:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyche, who became Beshaba and Tymora...

I don't see Apollo and Lathander as being all that alike. Besides, there is some speculation that Lathander is a new version of Amaunator, a sun deity worshipped in the time of Netheril.

I also don't see Aphrodite and Sune as being the same deity. I think they're similar, and that's it.

Truly, looking at some of the deities you could easily draw parallels between them and various real-world mythologies. But I prefer to assume that these are nothing more than parallels, unless it's actually stated that the Realms deity came from elsewhere. We do have stated cases of Realms deities coming from elsewhere, so if it doesn't state an other-worldly origin, I shan't assume one.

And another note -- according to the Netheril boxed set, there were only 10 human deities around to be worshipped. Now, 1700 years later, there's more deities than you can shake a stick at (and prolly a deity of shaking sticks at things ). We know how some rose to power in the years since (like Bane and his buddies), but there's lot that just kinda showed up in that timeframe. It is a curiosity, I think.

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Kuje
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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  17:28:50  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All the demihuman deities are interlopers. :)

Um as is the Mulhorand pantheon since they came to Faerun from elsewhere.

And Wooly, it's not speculation since it's clear in Races of Faerun, which I don't have right now to quote because I loaned it out.

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Edited by - Kuje on 18 Dec 2004 17:31:05
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  17:50:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31

And Wooly, it's not speculation since it's clear in Races of Faerun, which I don't have right now to quote because I loaned it out.



In Races? I recall no such reference... Can anyone provide a quote for that one? I'm not doubting you, friend Kuje, but I don't recall that and should certainly like to read it myself.

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Kuje
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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  21:29:53  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by kuje31

And Wooly, it's not speculation since it's clear in Races of Faerun, which I don't have right now to quote because I loaned it out.



In Races? I recall no such reference... Can anyone provide a quote for that one? I'm not doubting you, friend Kuje, but I don't recall that and should certainly like to read it myself.



It's in the human info. Sigh I wish I had my copy. :(

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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  21:41:38  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Page 104 in Races of Faerun:

"...Netherese refugees brought with them the faith of Amaunator (reborn as Lathander)..."

And repeated on page 106 in the Bedine entry.

Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 18 Dec 2004 21:44:07
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 18 Dec 2004 :  21:56:29  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the Netherese section of Races of Faerun - aside from repeating the Lathander/Amaunator link - it mentions 9 (not 10) deities worshipped. It does not state that these were the only human deities at the time, it actually says that their pantheon includes the 9 mentioned in the article - suggesting that even the Netherese venerated more than 9 or 10 deities.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Dec 2004 :  03:11:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

Page 104 in Races of Faerun:

"...Netherese refugees brought with them the faith of Amaunator (reborn as Lathander)..."

And repeated on page 106 in the Bedine entry.



Ah, thank you for that info.

I saw that concept a while before Races came out, and I didn't really like it that much... That's likely why I forgot about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

In the Netherese section of Races of Faerun - aside from repeating the Lathander/Amaunator link - it mentions 9 (not 10) deities worshipped. It does not state that these were the only human deities at the time, it actually says that their pantheon includes the 9 mentioned in the article - suggesting that even the Netherese venerated more than 9 or 10 deities.



Ah, but the original source for Netheril info, the old boxed set, specifically states that there were only 10 deities worshipped in Netheril, and it also states that "The human deities available in the time of Netheril were few, compared to those existing in modern-day Faerūn." (page 32 of The Winds of Netheril) It further states that a time-traveler who arrives when his/her deity doesn't exist loses all spell-casting powers until they find a similar god to worship (in other words, if they weren't on the list, they weren't around at all).

The text does not say that the Netherese pantheon was only 10 gods strong, which would allow for other human deities elsewhere, it says there was only 10 available in that time. So, until that bit is retconned, I stand by the argument that 1700 years ago, there were only 10 human deities.

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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 19 Dec 2004 :  05:30:25  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm. Since I don't have that material, I'll have to go with the Furry One on this . . . .

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 19 Dec 2004 :  08:17:48  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

Tyr -- Norse God of Justice and Law

Tyr is the original Germanic god of war and the patron god of justice, the precursor of Odin. At the time of the Vikings, Tyr had to make way for Odin, who became the god of war himself. Tyr was by then regarded as Odin's son (or possibly of the giant Hymir). He is the boldest of the gods, who inspires courage and heroism in battle. Tyr is represented as a man with one hand, because his right hand was bitten off by the gigantic wolf Fenrir (in old-Norse, the wrist was called 'wolf-joint'). His attribute is a spear; the symbol of justice, as well as a weapon.

At the day of Ragnarok, Tyr will kill the hound Garm, the guardian of the hell, but will die from the wounds inflicted by the animal. In later mythology, "Tyr" became to mean "god". He is also known as Tīwaz, Tiw and Ziu.

quote:

Loviatar -- Finnish demoness or goddess, I think.

Loviatar, a Finnish goddess, is commonly regard as a deity "who will finish you off if she has half a chance." She is plagues personified. The diseases and plagues that she has access to is supposedly said to be greater than the number of stars in the Heavens.

Her sisters aren't well regarded either. Which brings me to this -
quote:
Talona -- another Finnish deity under her original name of Kiputyyto (Is that how it's spelled?)

It's spelt KIPU-TYTTÖ. And she, along with Kivutar, and Vammatar, is one of the sisters of Loviatar in Finnish myth.

Kipu-Tytto is a goddess of death and she primarily resides in Tuonela, the local hell. Her name loosely translates as 'Pain Girl'. She is the regarded as the Deity of Illness and is said to sing tales of misery when you enter your "final sleep." She has a black pockmarked face and nine children with simple descriptive names which translate into English as Gout, Ulcers and Scabies.

quote:
And isn't Mielikki originally some Finnish goddess of nature?

Essentially, yes. The original Finnish interpretation of Mielikki (there are more than a few interpretations of the "Lady of the Forest" myth) is loosely translated to mean "mistress of the forest". Joining with her husband, Tapio (also a forest god although largely holding the domain for evergreen trees rather than deciduous, which was usually regarded to be Mielikki's responsibility), she produced two offspring -- NYYRIKKI, God of Hunting and/or God of Cattle and TUULIKKI, Goddess of the Woods.

A very complicated family "tree"... pun intended .

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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2004 :  09:46:20  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Ah, but the original source for Netheril info, the old boxed set, specifically states that there were only 10 deities worshipped in Netheril, and it also states that "The human deities available in the time of Netheril were few, compared to those existing in modern-day Faerūn." (page 32 of The Winds of Netheril) It further states that a time-traveler who arrives when his/her deity doesn't exist loses all spell-casting powers until they find a similar god to worship (in other words, if they weren't on the list, they weren't around at all).

The text does not say that the Netherese pantheon was only 10 gods strong, which would allow for other human deities elsewhere, it says there was only 10 available in that time. So, until that bit is retconned, I stand by the argument that 1700 years ago, there were only 10 human deities.


:::puts canon hat on :::
However the newer products are meant to corrct and supercede the previously published material, hence the author of the older material could have been misguided - a concept previously used by TSR/WotC.

:::takes canon hat off and tries to merge potentially conflicting data:::
Since I don't have the Netheril product of yore, I can't verify, but I'm not sure if it mentions Talfir. Races of Faerun touches a little on the Talfir (and who knows new material might expand on this), it for instance mentions that Tempus is orginally a Talfirian deity.

Page 108/109 of Races of Faerun: "...Several of the Faerunian pantheon are believed to have been first worshipped by the Talfir,..."

The Talfir were around at the time of the Crown Wars, and thus well predating Netheril. Further text from Races of Faerun: "...the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril,..."

It is quite possible that the author of The Winds of Netheril was not aware, or did not dig deep enough to understand the origin of the deities worshipped by the Netherese, mistakenly deducting that the Netherese were to worship them first.

Newer discoveries in recent years have likely turned up older materials or sages all over Faerun pondering on this ancient lore have deduced further and uncovered the misconception of earlier authors/sages.

A process alltogether not unlikely, it has happened several time in our real world as well.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Dec 2004 :  14:28:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

:::puts canon hat on :::
However the newer products are meant to corrct and supercede the previously published material, hence the author of the older material could have been misguided - a concept previously used by TSR/WotC.

:::takes canon hat off and tries to merge potentially conflicting data:::
Since I don't have the Netheril product of yore, I can't verify, but I'm not sure if it mentions Talfir. Races of Faerun touches a little on the Talfir (and who knows new material might expand on this), it for instance mentions that Tempus is orginally a Talfirian deity.

Page 108/109 of Races of Faerun: "...Several of the Faerunian pantheon are believed to have been first worshipped by the Talfir,..."

The Talfir were around at the time of the Crown Wars, and thus well predating Netheril. Further text from Races of Faerun: "...the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril,..."

It is quite possible that the author of The Winds of Netheril was not aware, or did not dig deep enough to understand the origin of the deities worshipped by the Netherese, mistakenly deducting that the Netherese were to worship them first.

Newer discoveries in recent years have likely turned up older materials or sages all over Faerun pondering on this ancient lore have deduced further and uncovered the misconception of earlier authors/sages.

A process alltogether not unlikely, it has happened several time in our real world as well.



Well, several could be 10, or more, or less. And it is possible that the pantheon grew before the time of Netheril, and then that deities were lost... After all, we know that deities have been lost over time.

Either way, nothing in 3E specifically says there were more than 10 deities in the time of Netheril, so I'm still standing by that number. I know that new stuff retconns supercedes the old stuff, but much of the stuff from that boxed set has been untouched by the new products. They have not, in 3E, made a definite statement either way about the number of deities in the time of Netheril, so the old info is still canon.

We can always wait for Ancient Empires, and see what it says...

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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
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Posted - 19 Dec 2004 :  18:34:11  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Faiths and Pantheons page 5: "...In western Faerun scholars have identified no fewer then four human proto-pantheon: the Netherese pantheon, the Talfiric pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and the Coramshite proto-pantheons, plus others unidentified, have merged into a single pantheon known as the Faerunian pantheon..."

Again no numbers, but the mentioning of at least four distinct proto-pantheons logically puts the number of human deities over 10 - now the Netheril pantheon is still likely to be around 10 - according to the mentioned Winds of Netheril and Races of Faerun.

I'll agree with you that:
quote:
Either way, nothing in 3E specifically says there were more than 10 deities in the time of Netheril, so I'm still standing by that number.
But these were not the only human deities...


In addition to an earlier post:
quote:
Talona -- another Finnish deity under her original name of Kiputytto.

According to Faiths and Pantheons both are now the same, Talona is a Realmsian deity who defeated the interloper Kiputytto. [page 5]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 20 Dec 2004 :  04:01:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

Faiths and Pantheons page 5: "...In western Faerun scholars have identified no fewer then four human proto-pantheon: the Netherese pantheon, the Talfiric pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and the Coramshite proto-pantheons, plus others unidentified, have merged into a single pantheon known as the Faerunian pantheon..."

Again no numbers, but the mentioning of at least four distinct proto-pantheons logically puts the number of human deities over 10 - now the Netheril pantheon is still likely to be around 10 - according to the mentioned Winds of Netheril and Races of Faerun.

I'll agree with you that:
quote:
Either way, nothing in 3E specifically says there were more than 10 deities in the time of Netheril, so I'm still standing by that number.
But these were not the only human deities...



Well, yeah, but we're talking about the Heartlands area. The other pantheons held sway over other geographic regions, and had no influence in the Heartlands.

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Bookwyrm
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Posted - 20 Dec 2004 :  06:11:01  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wait -- Wooly, didn't you just say that the other deities simply didn't exist in the first place?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 20 Dec 2004 :  11:19:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Wait -- Wooly, didn't you just say that the other deities simply didn't exist in the first place?



My stance has been that 1700 years ago in the Faerūnian region, there were 10 deities around for humans to worship. Of course the other areas with humans would have had pantheons, but because of the way pantheons are tied to regions, they would have been powerless in Faerūn.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 20 Dec 2004 :  13:23:14  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Wait -- Wooly, didn't you just say that the other deities simply didn't exist in the first place?



My stance has been that 1700 years ago in the Faerūnian region, there were 10 deities around for humans to worship. Of course the other areas with humans would have had pantheons, but because of the way pantheons are tied to regions, they would have been powerless in Faerūn.



Hmm, this does not work well. The deities might not have had many (if any) Clerics in a region, however it appears to be going too far to say these deities had no power when in a region.

What more likely occured is that only the effects of the 10 deities is known about, rather then there only being 10.

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Kuje
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Posted - 20 Dec 2004 :  16:49:54  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, this does not work well. The deities might not have had many (if any) Clerics in a region, however it appears to be going too far to say these deities had no power when in a region.

What more likely occured is that only the effects of the 10 deities is known about, rather then there only being 10.



No it doesn't. There's many examples of this in 2e and even in 3/3.5 FR. If there are no Faerun deities in Kara-tur then the faerun pantheon has no power in that region, etc. They didn't have power in the Moonshaes or Maztica until thier clergy spread out from Faerun, etc. There's even a sphere of influence map in Faiths & Avatars from 2e.

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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
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Posted - 20 Dec 2004 :  20:35:00  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Faerun, the Heartlands and former Netheril are not one and the same. Granted, Netheril encompassed and overlapped a large part with what is now considered the Heartlands, but Faerun stretches a bit further than that.

The Talfiric and Netherese pantheons were very close neighbors and probably had somewhat overlapping geographical areas. If it didn't, there would have been less reason for Tempus (Talfiric) to armwrestle Garagos (Netherese) to determine who would be the better deity of war.

Again, while I don't argue that the Netherese pantheon had about ten deities, there were more human deities to worship, even for a more open-minded Netherese, very likely in those areas where the Netherese sphere of influence bordered on other cultural regions.

As to the power of deities in other regions, just look at the contemporary Realms: e.g. A Mulhorandi cleric would still receive spells from his/her deity even when visiting Icewind Dale, just as a paladin of Lathander would receive spells when crusading in Menzoberanzan. A deities powers to grant spells to worshippers are not limied to a culural region - only to 2e crystal shperes and with the new 3.5e planar structure that seems no longer something to be worried about. (see also page 4 of 2e Faiths and Avatars)

Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 20 Dec 2004 20:56:17
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Dec 2004 :  04:23:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

As to the power of deities in other regions, just look at the contemporary Realms: e.g. A Mulhorandi cleric would still receive spells from his/her deity even when visiting Icewind Dale, just as a paladin of Lathander would receive spells when crusading in Menzoberanzan. A deities powers to grant spells to worshippers are not limied to a culural region - only to 2e crystal shperes and with the new 3.5e planar structure that seems no longer something to be worried about. (see also page 4 of 2e Faiths and Avatars)



Granting spells in a region where there is no influence is not the same as having influence in a region... It's like being a cop traveling in another country. Sure, you've had the training, you've got your skills and your street sense... But you've no jurisdiction to do anything, because you're not a representative of that country's law.

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Durak
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Posted - 22 Dec 2004 :  16:41:06  Show Profile  Visit Durak's Homepage Send Durak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
10 human god of the Netheril.

If this was based on the arcane series and time travel. Could the Goddess of Time, Mystryl, (i remember reading she spent more time enforcing time travel than magic, thus Karsus got so powerful in Magic causing her demise).
We know that gods back then were regionalised, could The Goddess have made a law governing Follwers of a god from another time coming into an area governed by a local pantheon, that their god would have no powers unless in the local pantheon. So as to stop some God like Cyris sending back follwers to create a worship of him fore he existed.

Sounds to me the gods were paranoid about new religions coming into their area.

Hope i make sense.
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Ty
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Posted - 22 Dec 2004 :  17:42:38  Show Profile  Visit Ty's Homepage Send Ty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding the original question:

I seem to recall somewhere that Kiputytto was an interloper deity of poison and plague that was killed by Talona.

As for someone's prior post regarding the Apollo/Tyche issue, I do recall reading that there was a hook introduced wherein Apollo became curious as to what happened to Tyche in Faerun (or something along those lines) but I don't think that it was ever official Realms canon.

I personally find it ironic that Tyr is the god of justice in the Realms when, depending upon what myth you ascribe to, Forseti was the god of justice in some Scandinavian myths. Granted, I am by no means a scholar of the subject, but I also seem to recall an alternative spelling of the name of Tyr as being Tuir.

Okay, I'm rambling. I just wanted to put in my shameless two cents on the Talona and Apollo matters.
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Kentinal
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Posted - 22 Dec 2004 :  18:21:21  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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A Norse God

"Forseti- God of justice and conciliation. The son of Balder and Nanna. Forseti sits day after day settling the differences of gods and men, patiently listening to both sides of every question and finally pronouncing sentences so equitable that none ever find fault with his decrees. It is said that his eloquence and powers of persuasion are such that he always succeeds in touching the hearts of his listeners and that he has never failed to reconcile even the most bitter of foes. "

A German God

"The original Germanic god of war and the patron god of justice, the precursor of Odin. At the time of the Vikings, Tyr had to make way for Odin, who became the god of war himself. Tyr was by then regarded as Odin's son (or possibly of the giant Hymir). He is the boldest of the gods, who inspires courage and heroism in battle. Tyr is represented as a man with one hand, because his right hand was bitten off by the gigantic wolf Fenrir (in old-Norse, the wrist was called 'wolf-joint'). His attribute is a spear; the symbol of justice, as well as a weapon.

At the day of Ragnarok, Tyr will kill the hound Garm, the guardian of the hell, but will die from the wounds inflicted by the animal. In later mythology, "Tyr" became to mean "god". He is also known as Tīwaz, Tiw and Ziu.

Old Norse: Tżr; Old English: Tiw "

*wink* regional gods?

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2004 :  19:55:17  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
As for someone's prior post regarding the Apollo/Tyche issue, I do recall reading that there was a hook introduced wherein Apollo became curious as to what happened to Tyche in Faerun (or something along those lines) but I don't think that it was ever official Realms canon.



It's in On Hallowed Ground, which is 2e which is also Planescape and so yes it is official FR canon until 3e changed FR's Planes since most everything in TSR's multiverse, and especially for Planescape, is official canon even though it was a different setting.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 22 Dec 2004 :  23:17:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Durak

10 human god of the Netheril.

If this was based on the arcane series and time travel. Could the Goddess of Time, Mystryl, (i remember reading she spent more time enforcing time travel than magic, thus Karsus got so powerful in Magic causing her demise).
We know that gods back then were regionalised, could The Goddess have made a law governing Follwers of a god from another time coming into an area governed by a local pantheon, that their god would have no powers unless in the local pantheon. So as to stop some God like Cyris sending back follwers to create a worship of him fore he existed.

Sounds to me the gods were paranoid about new religions coming into their area.

Hope i make sense.



I don't think it is possible to alter time in the Realms... Besides, how would Cyric gain worship? His followers would have no spells or powers for 1700 years. Who's gonna worship a deity who won't be around until that newborn dragon over there has died of old age?

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 23 Dec 2004 :  07:35:54  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't think it is possible to alter time in the Realms...
I don't think it's truly impossible... just improbable. I'm sure some of the more well-travelled sages and scholars of the Realms have heard of the Temporal Prime.

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