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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Dec 2004 : 23:42:50
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Here's a debate that has been raging on the WOTC boards. Yes I know what the 2e and 3e lore says on the topic also.
What it now boils down to is could half-elves wield high magic in canon official FR?
The 2e books as well as the 3/3.5e sourcebooks make this clear but there is this one poster, after being told that half-elves are not elven enough to wield High Magic, still disagrees.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 00:19:40
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Why not? If a half-elf can wield a moonblade, why not become a High Mage? Rich Baker's latest FR novel has a half-elf spellcaster who leads wizards from Evermeet in battle. Of course, the half elf to become a High Mage would be an exceptional individual, closely attuned to both the Weave and Arvandor (and probably more 'elven' than a real elf) - someone like Khelben's father Arun Maedrym springs to mind. He was an acolyte of Windsong Tower in Myth Drannor, a founding member of the Harpers and fathered a Chosen of Mystra (who also receives special favour from Sehanine).
I don't think you can talk in absolutes when it comes to the Realms. There are no "nos" or "nevers". The exceptions to the rule however should never be commonplace, overused and without a decent, workable, Realms-related explanation of why they are as they are.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Dec 2004 00:20:30 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 00:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Here's a debate that has been raging on the WOTC boards. Yes I know what the 2e and 3e lore says on the topic also.
What it now boils down to is could half-elves wield high magic in canon official FR?
The 2e books as well as the 3/3.5e sourcebooks make this clear but there is this one poster, after being told that half-elves are not elven enough to wield High Magic, still disagrees.
Just to be contrary and not using source material at all.
I do not see any reason that any race should be prevented from access to High Magic. If one PC can learn it it appears balancing that all races should be able to learn it.
I would propose a fix as well, that a prerequisite to have access to High Magic, one mist be able to cast 9th level for 300 years (or some other value that prevents most if not all other races from living long enough in most cases).
Now perhaps somebody will give you source material to try to conclude the debate. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 00:30:13
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Races of Faerun saids that only sun elves, moon elves, or wood elves, but I think you already knew that. However, I think it has more to do with the elven culture than the blood of the elves that restrict this prestige class to just elves. In a paragraph in Races of Faerun, it said that "No one else can learn the elve's greatest magical secrets". It's more likely that the elven high mages and leaders don't trust non-elves enough to share the ways of High Magic to them, as it is supposedly to be used to defend the elven realm.
Also, High Magic is controlled by Corellon Larethian, the leader of the elven pantheon, so why would he permit non-elves into learning the secrets of elven magics and its powers? It's just like dwarves not sharing their weapon crafting secrets or gnomes not letting others see their alchemical formulas. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 00:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Races of Faerun saids that only sun elves, moon elves, or wood elves, but I think you already knew that. However, I think it has more to do with the elven culture than the blood of the elves that restrict this prestige class to just elves. In a paragraph in Races of Faerun, it said that "No one else can learn the elve's greatest magical secrets". It's more likely that the elven high mages and leaders don't trust non-elves enough to share the ways of High Magic to them, as it is supposedly to be used to defend the elven realm.
Also, High Magic is controlled by Corellon Larethian, the leader of the elven pantheon, so why would he permit non-elves into learning the secrets of elven magics and its powers? It's just like dwarves not sharing their weapon crafting secrets or gnomes not letting others see their alchemical formulas.
That's most of our point. 2e said the same in Cormanthyr, "No non-elves could wield high magic."
Remember I'm basing this off canon 2e and 3/3.5e lore, so I was also hoping Mr. Schend would comment. Half-elves are not fully elven enough to wield high magic. Yes, yes. I know there are always exceptions but as I said originally the 2e and 3/3.5e sourcebooks make it clear that ONLY elves can cast high magic. So I guess besides the Corellon angle, I want to know why this is so. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 01:06:18 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 00:47:02
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Hmmm... the thing I'm wondering is: does elven blood really come into factor here? Does it matter whether you have 10% elf blood or 100%? I say this because all the sourcebooks indeed say that non-elves may not wield High Magic, but is this because of their lack of elven blood that prevents them, or is this just how elven culture had ruled?
Elven High Magic has to be taught by other high mages so basically no matter how powerful you are, you can only learn it if only these elven high mages accept you into their circle. However, they have a way of being quite judgemental with half-elves, as shown by Amlauril in how she talks and reacts to speaking about "humans mixing with elves". If their dislike of "mixed blood" makes them refuse others in learning High Magic, then perhaps this is how and why it has become official FR lore that only elves can learn High Magic.
What do you guys think of my opinion? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 01:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hmmm... the thing I'm wondering is: does elven blood really come into factor here? Does it matter whether you have 10% elf blood or 100%? I say this because all the sourcebooks indeed say that non-elves may not wield High Magic, but is this because of their lack of elven blood that prevents them, or is this just how elven culture had ruled?
Elven High Magic has to be taught by other high mages so basically no matter how powerful you are, you can only learn it if only these elven high mages accept you into their circle. However, they have a way of being quite judgemental with half-elves, as shown by Amlauril in how she talks and reacts to speaking about "humans mixing with elves". If their dislike of "mixed blood" makes them refuse others in learning High Magic, then perhaps this is how and why it has become official FR lore that only elves can learn High Magic.
What do you guys think of my opinion?
Well the WOTC thread turned into a debate about elven blood and so someone seems to believe that blood plays a factor. Cormanthyr, in the High Magic section, sort of hints at this because elves and magic are tied together.... So I would say its more then just elven culture and it has something to do with just being an elf, be it blood, or genes, or whatever you want to call it and half-elves and the rest of the demihuman races are missing that thing that makes elves well elves. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 01:17:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 01:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Just to be contrary and not using source material at all.
I do not see any reason that any race should be prevented from access to High Magic. If one PC can learn it it appears balancing that all races should be able to learn it.
The reason is because elves have a unique connection to magic... As has been stated more than once, humans and other races use the Weave, but elves are part of it. Thus, they have access to a form of magic that humies and orcies and dwarves (oh my!) can't use.
Back on topic, I think George nailed it down best. There might be one or two exceptional half-elves out there who could pull it off... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Dec 2004 01:12:36 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 01:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The reason is because elves have a unique connection to magic... As has been stated more than once, humans and other races use the Weave, but elves are part of it. Thus, they have access to a form of magic that humies and orcies and dwarves (oh my!) can't use.
Back on topic, I think George nailed it down best. There might be one or two exceptional half-elves out there who could pull it off...
Except this isn't what the poster on the WOTC boards is claiming. He/she is claiming that all half-elves could use High Mage in the canon material. Not that there are a handful of half-elves that are exceptions to the rule who can wield it with training. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 01:16:08 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 01:31:02
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| kuje, then this person over at WotC must be really stubborn or just wants to continue the argument for the heck of it. Besides, does this poster even have any evidence or proof to back up his side of the argument? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 01:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
kuje, then this person over at WotC must be really stubborn or just wants to continue the argument for the heck of it. Besides, does this poster even have any evidence or proof to back up his side of the argument?
No not really, which is typical to most WOTC debates on those boards. :)
"I've seen passages where half-elves helped or were part of the 2nd circle of casting High Magic but right now I can't find them and since you all quoted both Cormanthyr and Races of Faerun then I am going to ignore them because I say that ALL half-elves can be high mages in official canon realmslore because they have elven blood," is the basic arguement now. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 01:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
kuje, then this person over at WotC must be really stubborn or just wants to continue the argument for the heck of it. Besides, does this poster even have any evidence or proof to back up his side of the argument?
No not really, which is typical to most WOTC debates on those boards. :)
"I've seen passages where half-elves helped or were part of the 2nd circle of casting High Magic but right now I can't find them and since you all quoted both Cormanthyr and Races of Faerun then I am going to ignore them because I say that ALL half-elves can be high mages in official canon realmslore because they have elven blood," is the basic arguement now.
Well in that case, it can be time to end debate. Post a reply to the effect that it does appear that it takes more then just elven blood, that there are exceptions that permit some half-elves to be able to use High Magic. Use the source quotes in this thread, of course ignore my comments (as I did not use any source).
Be done with it. Not all full bloods can master High Magic.
In the right combination and will of the Elven God, does one recieve High Magic use. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 02:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
kuje, then this person over at WotC must be really stubborn or just wants to continue the argument for the heck of it. Besides, does this poster even have any evidence or proof to back up his side of the argument?
No not really, which is typical to most WOTC debates on those boards. :)
"I've seen passages where half-elves helped or were part of the 2nd circle of casting High Magic but right now I can't find them and since you all quoted both Cormanthyr and Races of Faerun then I am going to ignore them because I say that ALL half-elves can be high mages in official canon realmslore because they have elven blood," is the basic arguement now.
That's why I didn't even bother signing up to WotC's forum even though I am a big fan of Forgotten Realms. It's people like these that make debates and arguments totally worthless. You could post 20 pages worth of proof and give dozens of links, but then the person would say, "Nope, that's not what I think so I don't think it's correct."
BTW, isn't it almost amusing how everyone who cannot give good support to their argument would use the "I can't find it right now" trick? It's nearly becoming the official forum "My dog ate it." debate excuse. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 02:50:14
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
That's why I didn't even bother signing up to WotC's forum even though I am a big fan of Forgotten Realms. It's people like these that make debates and arguments totally worthless. You could post 20 pages worth of proof and give dozens of links, but then the person would say, "Nope, that's not what I think so I don't think it's correct."
BTW, isn't it almost amusing how everyone who cannot give good support to their argument would use the "I can't find it right now" trick? It's nearly becoming the official forum "My dog ate it." debate excuse.
HAHAHA. That last bit is amusing. :)
But I'm just annoyed because this poster IM'd me and told me to stop flaming him/her because some of us disagree with his/her opinion and that he/she was going to tattle to the mods again because I was being a "canon nazi" because I was quoting sourcebooks. Its not like I care if I get banned from those boards but it should be for a better reason then disagreeing with someone who doesn't want to listen to 3 or 4 of us who said that half-elves in general can't be high mages. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 02:53:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 02:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
kuje, then this person over at WotC must be really stubborn or just wants to continue the argument for the heck of it. Besides, does this poster even have any evidence or proof to back up his side of the argument?
No not really, which is typical to most WOTC debates on those boards. :)
"I've seen passages where half-elves helped or were part of the 2nd circle of casting High Magic but right now I can't find them and since you all quoted both Cormanthyr and Races of Faerun then I am going to ignore them because I say that ALL half-elves can be high mages in official canon realmslore because they have elven blood," is the basic arguement now.
Wait -- isn't that actually correct? The primary spellcasters have to be elven, but supporting ones can be of any race... I know it's that way for creating a mythal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 03:08:25
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Interesting side question concerning High Magic.
Acepting that "humans and other races use the Weave, but elves are part of it" where does this leave Drow, Avaviral and sea elves as it has been also stated in this thread that "Races of Faerun saids that only sun elves, moon elves, or wood elves"?
I can understand Corellon Larethian not granting High Magic to Lolthian Drow mages, but what of those that follow Lady Silverhair, his daughter and protector of the good Drow. Considering how out numbered they are perhaps some access to High Magic should be granted to them.
This of course leaves open even the bigger question of other elven tyes that did not war on thier kin. Not sure how much High Magic sea elves would need, though perhaps used for defenses, the flying elves perhaps find High Magic very useful for creation of cloud cities for example. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 07 Dec 2004 03:11:48 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 03:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wait -- isn't that actually correct? The primary spellcasters have to be elven, but supporting ones can be of any race... I know it's that way for creating a mythal.
For wizardy mythals it is but for High Magic ones it isn't. And even Myth Drannor's 2nd circle was all High Mages. But this is besides the point :) Half-elves, again, according to the 2e and 3.5e official canon lore can't be High Mages. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 03:15:25 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 03:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Interesting side question concerning High Magic.
Acepting that "humans and other races use the Weave, but elves are part of it" where does this leave Drow, Avaviral and sea elves as it has been also stated in this thread that "Races of Faerun saids that only sun elves, moon elves, or wood elves"?
I can understand Corellon Larethian not granting High Magic to Lolthian Drow mages, but what of those that follow Lady Silverhair, his daughter and protector of the good Drow. Considering how out numbered they are perhaps some access to High Magic should be granted to them.
This of course leaves open even the bigger question of other elven tyes that did not war on thier kin. Not sure how much High Magic sea elves would need, though perhaps used for defenses, the flying elves perhaps find High Magic very useful for creation of cloud cities for example.
Corellon cut drow off from accessing High Magic, so says Cormanthyr. Which he had good reason to do and yes this also includes Eilistraee's worshippers or lay followers.
Also I disagree with part of 3.5e High Mage class because sea elves did have High Mages in 2e lore and also that excludes Star Elves, for those who use them, and of course Rich has said that Star Elves should have High Mages and so WOTC is again giving out conflicting info or retconning things without thinking about the old lore. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 03:21:08 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 03:54:01
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quote:
HAHAHA. That last bit is amusing. :)
But I'm just annoyed because this poster IM'd me and told me to stop flaming him/her because some of us disagree with his/her opinion and that he/she was going to tattle to the mods again because I was being a "canon nazi" because I was quoting sourcebooks. Its not like I care if I get banned from those boards but it should be for a better reason then disagreeing with someone who doesn't want to listen to 3 or 4 of us who said that half-elves in general can't be high mages.
LOL. "Canon nazi"? That has to be the dumbest insult I have ever heard. Why do people think that whenever they add the word "nazi", to something, it is instantly a bad word? kuje, perhaps he should be the one banned for even IMing you for that. After all, he's harassing you by going OUTSIDE of the topic, where the real discussion, is to say something that stupid. There's no such thing as a "canon nazi". If he says that about you, that means all historians, teachers, and librarians are nazis for referring to books and encylopedias for information.
Now to get back on topic. I don't think you can use sea elves as an example. If I remember correctly from the novel Evermeet, sea elves did not possess any magic at all, which was the reason why they were all being slaughtered by Umberlee's minions back in the early days of Evermeet's existence. Then there was a sun elf (if I remember correctly) named Anarzee who prayed to one of the elven gods to turn her and her fellow crew members of an elven ship into sea elves. This was the solution to defeating those minions and making the race of sea elves stronger. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 04:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
LOL. "Canon nazi"? That has to be the dumbest insult I have ever heard. Why do people think that whenever they add the word "nazi", to something, it is instantly a bad word? kuje, perhaps he should be the one banned for even IMing you for that. After all, he's harassing you by going OUTSIDE of the topic, where the real discussion, is to say something that stupid. There's no such thing as a "canon nazi". If he says that about you, that means all historians, teachers, and librarians are nazis for referring to books and encylopedias for information.
Now to get back on topic. I don't think you can use sea elves as an example. If I remember correctly from the novel Evermeet, sea elves did not possess any magic at all, which was the reason why they were all being slaughtered by Umberlee's minions back in the early days of Evermeet's existence. Then there was a sun elf (if I remember correctly) named Anarzee who prayed to one of the elven gods to turn her and her fellow crew members of an elven ship into sea elves. This was the solution to defeating those minions and making the race of sea elves stronger.
Yup. I got the IM on file cause it's amusing. :)
Now about the sea elves, since that got brought up earlier on the WOTC boards. Sea elves do have High Mages according to the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook and they also have mid to high level wizards that are called Duelists. In the text on them it says to reference Cormanthyr. :) Yes I know of that sea elf in the Evermeet novel but later sourcebooks "proved" that sea elves also had medium to high level arcane casters in 2e because these sea elves were stat'd. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 04:18:53 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 04:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Now to get back on topic. I don't think you can use sea elves as an example. If I remember correctly from the novel Evermeet, sea elves did not possess any magic at all, which was the reason why they were all being slaughtered by Umberlee's minions back in the early days of Evermeet's existence. Then there was a sun elf (if I remember correctly) named Anarzee who prayed to one of the elven gods to turn her and her fellow crew members of an elven ship into sea elves. This was the solution to defeating those minions and making the race of sea elves stronger.
Well do not have novel, however have 2nd _Elves of Evermeet_ "Game Assesory" which does indicate that "The major city of Evermeet's Sea Elves is called Iumathiashar, or '"Mother of the Seas". It is home to several thousand of the Alu-Tel' Quessir, and is built using magical technigues quite simalar to those of the land elves."
page 28
This clearly is an indication of some magic use, for that is how the land elves build on Evermeet. There is though this as well. on the same page. "They have few if any real magical abilities, but can weild weapons of considerable power that are often enchanted for them by their land elf cousins."
Even this does leave open a few sea elves do magic, just it is not the (in 3rd terms) favor class.
To get even more on topic page 63 offers this in regard to High Magic "This option is open only to wizzards on the island of Evermeet. They may travel outside the Island and use thier magical abilities, but must return to Evermeet in order to actually rise in level"
This certainly makes it posible a few sea elves could comand High Magic, though to gain level on the surface could be a problem. This source of course pervents anyone that has not been on Evermeet from using High Magic.
Of course 3.x could have changed this and even the source book does allow the DM to house rule advancement without touching Evermeet. The one rule was slow advancement, with or without Evermeet requirement, (that is needs twice as many ex. pts. then normal to advance a level) from Character first level.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 07 Dec 2004 04:51:14 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 05:33:54
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Kentinal, the sea elves wouldn't have any of that if it wasn't for Anarzee's transformation. According to Evermeet the novel, her transformation and her crew mates allowed elven magic and high magic to pass on to the sea elves.
Here's to quote from the novel (pg. 217)
"...naturally born Sea Elves did not possess magic!"
This was also BEFORE the rise of the sea elven city Iumathiashar you were talking about. She had a hand in building it. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 05:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Kentinal, the sea elves wouldn't have any of that if it wasn't for Anarzee's transformation. According to Evermeet the novel, her transformation and her crew mates allowed elven magic and high magic to pass on to the sea elves.
Here's to quote from the novel (pg. 217)
"...naturally born Sea Elves did not possess magic!"
This was also BEFORE the rise of the sea elven city Iumathiashar you were talking about. She had a hand in building it.
I know that's what is in the novel, but also remember that Danilo wrote most of that novel for Arilyn and so not all of that novel could be true. :)
However, as I said, the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook has a lot of stat'd sea elven wizards. :) Most of them are the "rulers" of Myth Nanter.....
Now I have to disagree that all the sea elves learned all thier magic from just one land bound elf that was turned into a sea elf, especially those sea elves that live in the Sea of Fallen Stars. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 05:39:06 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 05:50:08
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I will not argue with a novel, if they did not have magic before they certainly got access to it by the time the Game accessory was written. Unless another game accessory or rule change occurred, it follows that sea elves do have access to magic, perhaps even High Magic. Though very few in number.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 06:23:27
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kuje, the information of the novel was supposedly from sources like Prince Lauril, Khelben Blackstaff, Laeral of the Seven Sisters, sages of Candlekeep, etc. If they cannot be trusted, I don't know who can. Lol.
And no, the sea elves didn't "learn" magic from a single elf. Anarzee had started a trend and found a solution for the sea elves' weakness. She and the others that had been transformed mated with the other sea elves, which allowed these second generation children to possess innate magic like sun and moon elves. It was through this process that allowed sea elves to possess magic, not from the teaching of one elf. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 06:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
kuje, the information of the novel was supposedly from sources like Prince Lauril, Khelben Blackstaff, Laeral of the Seven Sisters, sages of Candlekeep, etc. If they cannot be trusted, I don't know who can. Lol.
And no, the sea elves didn't "learn" magic from a single elf. Anarzee had started a trend and found a solution for the sea elves' weakness. She and the others that had been transformed mated with the other sea elves, which allowed these second generation children to possess innate magic like sun and moon elves. It was through this process that allowed sea elves to possess magic, not from the teaching of one elf.
Still doesn't buy it. :) How about all the sea elves on the planes, the sea elves of the Sea of Fallen Stars, etc. It just seems to conflict with the info that came out in The Sea of Fallen Stars which was writen after the Evermeet novel and the Evermeet sourcebook. And those people are still mortal, so they can make mistakes. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Dec 2004 06:51:33 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 07:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Just to be contrary and not using source material at all.
I do not see any reason that any race should be prevented from access to High Magic. If one PC can learn it it appears balancing that all races should be able to learn it.
The reason is because elves have a unique connection to magic... As has been stated more than once, humans and other races use the Weave, but elves are part of it. Thus, they have access to a form of magic that humies and orcies and dwarves (oh my!) can't use.
Back on topic, I think George nailed it down best. There might be one or two exceptional half-elves out there who could pull it off...
I'd say there's a few more than that, Wooly, but you could still count them among four hands (and compared vs. the populations of Faerun, that's more than very rare).
I'll try and post more later/tomorrow when I have a brain, but despite what I'd written in the past, I'm more inclined to agree with George's statements above.
Short and sweet opinions/notes on the topic:
Yes, you need to have elven blood to initiate/wield High Magic;
no, you don't have to have it to participate in High Magic (i.e. you're donating your mind and soul and spirit and energy and magic, but you're not exactly in control or wielding magic);
yes, half-elves can cast it, but it's tricky--the way I set it up, you needed to be vastly older than any half elf could get to be a High Mage, which was why it was restricted to full elves; and last but not least....
Mystra's Chosen, if she (or Corellon) deems it necessary and they can learn it, can cast and wield High Magic regardless of elven blood. Thus, I'd have to admit that Khelben does know a thing or two about it from books and from practice. 
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 07:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I think it has more to do with the elven culture than the blood of the elves that restrict this prestige class to just elves. In a paragraph in Races of Faerun, it said that "No one else can learn the elve's greatest magical secrets". It's more likely that the elven high mages and leaders don't trust non-elves enough to share the ways of High Magic to them, as it is supposedly to be used to defend the elven realm.
It might also be that non-elves simply cannot fully appreciate the way elves think, their idiosyncrasies, and especially within something so cultural advanced and specific as their high magic. Being able to appreicate all of the subtleties and idiosyncrasies of elfin culture might be a prerequistie for this form of magic.
And perhaps this is even more than a matter of culture. Rear someone up in a culture, and they will come ot understand it ... given enough time of course. But perhaps elfin brains are actually structured in some peculiar way that in some way is responsible for the way they think. If this is the case, then no amount of time or culturalization would help a non-elf, even a half-breed, learn.
Just a thought ... |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 07:44:10
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| I look forward to the rest of your thoughts on this Steven and thanks. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 10:17:37
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| I only vaguely remember reading something about the use of high magic about 10 years ago. Can someone point me in the right direction so that I can learn a little more about it? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 11:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I look forward to the rest of your thoughts on this Steven and thanks. :)
As do I! 
quote:
Originally posted by Lina
I only vaguely remember reading something about the use of high magic about 10 years ago. Can someone point me in the right direction so that I can learn a little more about it?
Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves, and Elves of Evermeet. |
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High Magic
