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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 17:42:20
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Ive read some of your previous post, Chalres. Why read a book about new, regular characters when youve made such a big deal about only liking the bigname folks like Elminister and Kelben?
I realy enjoyed the book, and I sometimes dont like Ed Greewnood's writing. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 18:03:14
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New characters are fine but they have to be able to compete with the established ones. The big names, I believe, are big names because they're interesting and effective. Drizzt Do'urden didn't start as anything other than the Sword jockey of a party in R.A. Salvatore's mind yet he built up by his circumstances.
Now if you think that invalidates my post, take note that on what planet does 3 partying noblemen and a couple of seamtresses equal a mysterious Dark Elven Ranger? Even then, I'm still very glad when Alustriel shows up in the Drizzt books. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 18:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
on what planet does 3 partying noblemen and a couple of seamtresses equal a mysterious Dark Elven Ranger?
I'd rather read about the first instead of the second, but that's me. The first is more realistic and the second just should be rare. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 18:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
So, I can't say this was a great read for me. There isn't even that much to say about the plot. On the other hand, Waterdeep really did come alive.
I really like how Ed's books are more about making an entire world come alive than just a few main characters. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind more new series that had a tighter focus, such as the Erevis Cale stories. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 18:48:49
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quote:
I'd rather read about the first instead of the second, but that's me. The first is more realistic and the second just should be rare.
While I understand the sentiment, why exactly am I reading about something realistic in a fantasy novel? Second, aren't I supposed to be reading about something extraordinarily rare in a book line of Epic Fantasy?
I admit, you do raise an interesting point that has bugged me in Realms lore where too often the amazing is treated utterly blaisely by the protagionists.
"Oh yes, there was an invasion of Beholders in Burrowsdown *yawn*."
Or something to that effect. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 19:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
While I understand the sentiment, why exactly am I reading about something realistic in a fantasy novel? Second, aren't I supposed to be reading about something extraordinarily rare in a book line of Epic Fantasy?
You keep having this complant about Realms books. Why do you keep reading them? |
i have no sig. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 20:34:27
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quote:
You keep having this complant about Realms books. Why do you keep reading them?
Cause most of them have Chosen of Mystra, Moonblade wielders, Dark Elven warriors defeating entire cities' forces or dragons, the Greatest Swordsman in the Realms vs. the Paladin King of Bloodstone, the glorious divine politics of the cyric novels, and Princesses of Menzoberrazan? Not to mention older novels with the quest of Finder to become a god with his homonculous chainmail bikini daughter and the Druid Kings of the Moonshaes. I also love Shandril the Spellfire wielder and the Adventures of the Obaskyr family.
....are these somehow the exception to the rule?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 03 Jan 2007 20:35:24 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 20:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
[While I understand the sentiment, why exactly am I reading about something realistic in a fantasy novel? Second, aren't I supposed to be reading about something extraordinarily rare in a book line of Epic Fantasy?
I admit, you do raise an interesting point that has bugged me in Realms lore where too often the amazing is treated utterly blaisely by the protagionists.
"Oh yes, there was an invasion of Beholders in Burrowsdown *yawn*."
Or something to that effect.
Because even fantasy has to be realistic or it blows the suspension of belief. Nope, no one has ever said you are supposed to be reading something extraordinary in fantasy. That's your bias showing. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 20:46:38
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I quite liked the book, not my favorite by either author, but the lack of a "heroic" plot and larger than life characters was a relief. It felt more like reading Balzac or Hugo and to me that's great. I would rather hear about seamstresses than arch-mages in the realms anyway.
And to say that the book is to realistic because of the characters are normal people is pushing it a bit, there's plenty of magic and supernatural happenings in the book, one can have fantasy without making it over the top. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
....are these somehow the exception to the rule?
Yes. The books department has long gone against the nature of the Realms in favouring sensational, powerful and 'iconic' characters over adventurers and common folk. The Realms is not epic fantasy; it is heroic fantasy, and it's fair to expect a preponderance of heroes, but the published Realms has a relative overabundance of them. The quality of a character has nothing to do with how unusual or exceptional he or she is. |
Edited by - Faraer on 03 Jan 2007 21:06:40 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
....are these somehow the exception to the rule?
Yes. The books department has long gone against the nature of the Realms in favouring sensational, powerful and 'iconic' characters over adventurers and common folk.
Okay, before I comment on your point. Since when the hell have adventurers ever been common folk? Is there some magical bizarro world where adventuring is a regular career in Forgotten Realms as opposed to great warriors who change the face of the world?
And long may the novels continue to go against the theme then. I very much have enjoyed all of Ed's novels about Elminster and Shandril. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:52:15
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Okay, this is once more turning into an iconic characters versus normal characters thread... And we've had way too many of those. I'm getting tired of seeing the same arguments repeated over and over again. So let's just drop the entire thing, because I don't want to lock this thread.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:56:35
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Actually, adventurers are part of the social structure of most of the Realms. Its always been stressed that unlike other settings, where the "adventuring party" tends to be hand picked champions, "chosen ones" or people that fate has thrown together to stop a great evil, some people in the Realms become adventurers as a "career." Heck, if this weren't true, Cormyr wouldn't have charters for adventuring companies and make a distinction between them and mercenaries, and you wouldn't have the buisness at the Yawning Portal like you do.
Sometimes its bored nobles, sometimes its frustrated apprentices that can't get ahead under their current teacher, and sometimes its the farmers son or the blacksmith's daughter that doesn't want to be part of the family business, so they hitch up with some of their friends to explore the Haunted Halls, or some other nearby ruin. Most of them die, quit after being scared senseless after their first adventure, but some of them go on to become "professionals."
Heck, the original old grey boxed set went to great pains to point out several famous adventuring groups, none of which was famous for becoming gods or ruling nations or even really saving the world, but for surviving places like Myth Drannor and UnderMountain long enough to get really wealthy and retire.
Don't get me wrong. Once in a while I do want to read about Alusair, or Elminster, or any number of other "important" people. But Kuje has the right of it when he mentions suspention of disbeleif. If every novel is about those characters, they you do start to feel like "oh, ho hum, a rift has open up in the fabric of reality, wonder which one of the Chosen gets to fix it first."
I kind of like to read stories from the perspective of the "lower" commoner that is afraid of "mundane" orc raids once in a while, or the begining apprentice for whom casting a light spell is a major accomplishment. It gives you some perspective once in a while. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 22:41:01
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I'm not interested in another debate on that end there Wooley. I'm just pointing out that the Realms has consistently catered to my tastes and I'm a little nonpulsed by the strange idea that I want something that FR doesn't offer. It's offered it in abundance for me.
Knight Errant does explain that adventurers are in fact a fairly common part of the society its true. Nevertheless, I tend to think of them like the Company of the Bright Spear from Spellfire....largely uninteresting and expendable cannon fodder for the real heroes.
I don't mind heroes that start off as "normal" people either, which may surprise someone. In the case of City of Splendours, my biggest problem is that the leads are such insufferable b******s. The Gemcloaks are a bunch of bullies that go through a fairly dubious emotional transformation in the book. Honestly, I care about Harry Dresden's victims usually, but if the chief work of an author is making sure I care whether the victims lived or die then it didn't work for me.
I guess I wouldn't mind the seamtresses if they were INTERESTING in personality as well. Elminster's Daughter may be distinguished by her unusual parentage (that's not a spoiler even if it's misleading) foremost but the girl at least has some fun qualities to her personality as well. Shandril is a tavern wench but even without Spellfire I would have liked her.
I can't even remember the names of our romantic heroines here.
Danillo Thann, his blood tie to Khelben notwithstanding, is a "typical" Waterdeep nobleman come adventurer. The character is also noble, forthright, and interesting to read about. The leads of Waterdeep are complete wastes of blood and muscle. It's also deeply unsatisfying to read about a man willing to give a young woman to be raped by a half-ogre and somehow how he's just "misunderstood" or needs to be given guidance. No, he needs a hangman's noose.
I also very much like Narm of Spellfire whom is iconic in the fact he's a complete washout of a magician. He's just a fairly typical guy who can't suceed yet becomes more interesting for his personal flaws. The interchangeable nature of the so-called-heroes of this story annoys me even as the only one that's really different is solely how repulsive he is.
But, disregarding iconic, I'd also like my plotlines to have a certain thematic relevance. The bizarre vivisectionist/graft religion of our villains is incredibly out there and clearly a one time thing. I would have appreciated a plotline that had more to do with the longstanding threats to Waterdeep and how they troubled the lands of the North. We have so many huge threats out there already, can't we use one of them? They were just so strange that I couldn't take them seriously. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 03 Jan 2007 22:51:13 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 22:57:55
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That handful of huge threats is also overrepresented in the published Realms, compared to the hundreds of local power groups which are collectively a bigger factor in what goes on in Faerūn and more typical of its own literary flavour. (Compare Tatooine in the Star Wars expanded universe.)
But you prefer the way certain other novels treat the setting, fine. |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I quite liked the book, not my favorite by either author, but the lack of a "heroic" plot and larger than life characters was a relief. It felt more like reading Balzac or Hugo and to me that's great. I would rather hear about seamstresses than arch-mages in the realms anyway.
I'm beginning to appreciate those kinds of FR stories too. It's something different that Ed and his collaborators are bringing to the current market of fantasy novels and that's a good thing.
However, perhaps there's a problem with marketing and presentation, with building up expectations with the potential reader. For example, the cover of City of Splendors could have been a lot more representative of the main characters of the book and the kind of flamboyant adventure they got into.
I'd also extend that criticism to the recent Blackstaff novel. First of all, it shouldn't have been titled simply "Blackstaff", because some of us might get the idea that the book would focus primarily on him, which it didn't. The cover should have included other members of the cast.
The basic idea is, if you're going to sell me peanut-butter chocolate ice-cream, don't package it as strawberry vanilla and expect me to be entirely pleased, Wizards. |
Edited by - RodOdom on 03 Jan 2007 23:19:15 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
on what planet does 3 partying noblemen and a couple of seamtresses equal a mysterious Dark Elven Ranger?
I'd rather read about the first instead of the second, but that's me. The first is more realistic and the second just should be rare.
Ditto! I wasn't fond of the noblemen, myself, but I'm all in favor of authors writing about more "regular" characters. I think the problem in this case, Charles, was that there were so MANY characters that they didn't have enough time to establish a "charismatic presence" (though I'd argue that Lark made it there). But other than that, who said characters have to be "big guns" to be interesting? If a character is fun to read about, that's enough for me--he or she doesn't have to "compete" with other characters (compete in terms of personality, or in terms of power, besides?).
Also, I didn't find the female characters to be "vapid", far from it. They seemed very proactive to me.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Jan 2007 23:23:22 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:25:16
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Oh yeah,
The Waterdeep novel is one of the recent novels that I'd actually include in my version of FR because it was based on normal realistic characters and setting instead of being a novel that contains more world shaking events and characters. It's sad that I've chosen to ignore at least 5 or 6 recent trilogies or series of novels because the events are unrealistic. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jan 2007 23:44:42 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:28:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Okay, before I comment on your point. Since when the hell have adventurers ever been common folk?
That's usually how they start out--just read Swords of Eveningstar. Adventurers come from very ordinary backgrounds, have childhoods, often have normal parents; they have hopes, dreams, fears, and failures. They don't hatch as adults from golden eggs.
All very "common" to me. And yes, I'm talking about the "real heroes" here, not the "dispensible cannon fodder". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Jan 2007 23:41:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Oh yeah,
The Waterdeep novel is one of the recent novels that I'd actually include in my version of FR because it was based on normal realistic characters and setting instead of being a novel that contains more world shaking events and characters. It's sad that I've chosen to ignore at least 5 or 6 recent trilogies because the events are unrealistic.
That's pretty much the same for me as well...
It was a nice change, for once, to read about the more "usual" lives of both important Realms characters, and the city they live in. Ed and Elaine managed to provide me with a enjoyable sense of what living in the Realms, particularly Waterdeep, can be like when there aren't Shades attacking or Rogue Dragons raging.
The RSE material I can't really use in my campaigns, nor would I ever desire to even attempt to do so... because my FR, simply, doesn't follow that path. In contrast, CoS provided a great deal of what I look for in quality Realms fiction, and additionally, material I can make use of in my FR -- a focus on life and society in the Realms with well supported characters and tidbits of Realmslore thrown in for good measure.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Jan 2007 23:40:25 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
That handful of huge threats is also overrepresented in the published Realms, compared to the hundreds of local power groups which are collectively a bigger factor in what goes on in Faerūn and more typical of its own literary flavor. (Compare Tatooine in the Star Wars expanded universe.)
But you prefer the way certain other novels treat the setting, fine.
That's a point though. Never should villains be transformed into something common. For example, the blaise way the invasion of the sahuagin was brushed aside was really annoying to me. How was it repulsed? Did it inflict much damage? Were many people killed? Did the people find it terrifying? Are there many veterans of this conflict? Yet, it's all dealt with in one scene. While you may think this is me continually wanting a "big" event. I'd have happily read about the tailor who hated the Lords of Waterdeep fighting in that conflict. Hell, was he angry that he wasn't compensated for risking his life? Was he compensated?
(I think the worst part of the book was that I found that man's plotline the most believable, interesting, and gripping part of the book.....yet zilch came of it)
The distrust between the Lords and the Common Men were amongst the few parts of the book that were really interesting because it was a definitely interesting plot thread of the powerful and their interactions with the not so much. It was also uniquely Realmsian.
Simultaneously, it annoys me how the Zhents and similar characters don't get treated with genuine FEAR which I agree is a problem with the books. I might be less critical of the Gemcloaks if they had faced a threat equal to their power level as well. I can't stand it when Silverfall and the Simbul's Gift (bleah) have the Red Wizards reduced to the status of redshirts.
No one ever complains that Artemis Enteri is "just" an assassin despite the fact he comes after Drizzt has just defeated the Crystal Shard. That's because the character is presented as a threat along with drive and determination.
The threat inside The City of Splendors bugs me because they're a pair of buffoons, weird powers aside. I would have preferred a Red Wizard of Thay or Zhent that was capable, determined, and terrifying in their own way. Someone whom despite being JUST a mid to low ranking member of the organization would probably scare the **** out of those four.
Elaine Cunningham's previous work in "Dream Spheres" is low stakes yet the Knights of the Shield (just a bunch of bankers with their infernal ties never elaborated on) still make the book awesome to read.
You guys are right that non-iconic heroes can certainly be very intriguing stuff and a well-written story is a well written story. This book frustrated me though because it felt like it was a Doctor Who episode that followed the adventures of Jackie Tyler and Mike while Rose was offscreen with the Doctor (And I like Rose). If anyone gets what I mean by that. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 03 Jan 2007 23:58:15 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 00:23:59
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I get what you mean, and I, too, thought some of the plotlines just sort of . . . ended.
I wish we could have seen the book before it got so drastically trimmed. Ed (via THO) had made some comments here at the Keep on how much had to be tossed out; I'm thinking that's what happened to what you're missing. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 00:28:30
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I wouldn't mind purchasing an expanded CoS.
It's strange how Ed's books constantly seem to have so much content removed though.
The same thing happened to Spellfire.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 00:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
You guys are right that non-iconic heroes can certainly be very intriguing stuff and a well-written story is a well written story.
I never used the term "iconic".
You know those common adventurers I was talking about? They wind up being the Knights of Myth Drannor, a well-known and successful adventuring group. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 00:44:23
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....yeah, I knew that from the beginning.
I was just using the word for important to the Realms as a whole. I actually think the Sword sounds interesting in part because it's focusing on expanding on already known part of the Realms in THE adventuring party of the land.
...except for the PCs of course.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 01:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I was just using the word for important to the Realms as a whole.
Really? Does that mean Drizzt, who is largely considered "iconic" is important to the Realms as a whole? Not "in-setting" he isn't--he's a hero in the North, but how does that make him "important to the Realms as a whole"? He's just a ranger who happens to have an unusual backstory. And this goes for many other characters.
The ability of a character to sell novels in the real world doesn't make said character important to the people actually in setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 01:44:17
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Well Drizzt really established the Menzoberrazan part of the setting. While he's not the figure of Merlin that Elminster is. He's one of the most recognizable personages of Forgotten Realms and certainly been involved in many epic encounters as well.
Say what you will about the Crystal Shard and even Cadderly's little quests but stuff happens in them.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 03:27:25
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| I am very close to locking this thread, because -- as I said earlier -- we are seeing the same $%$(*#^@#% arguments repeated over and over and over again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 03:57:01
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As Wooly has said, this discussion has strayed far from actually discussion the novel in question and has veered into the "what is iconic" and "who should be featured in Realms novels" discussions that we have had, many times, over and over again, here at the keep, to no good end.
Please get back to discussing the book in question. There is more than enough material in the book to discuss without veering back into this discussion again. If you have said your peace about this book and its contents, but feel compelled to respond to other points made in the last few posts, please feel free to PM the poster that made the comments, but do not continue down this path in this particular novel discussion thread.
Thank you. |
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City of Splendors: A Novel of Waterdeep
