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Arteris
Learned Scribe
121 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 21:55:46
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What happens to gods when they die? Are they just forever obliterated? Or do they go to a plane for dead gods or what?
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 21:59:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arteris
What happens to gods when they die? Are they just forever obliterated? Or do they go to a plane for dead gods or what?
From Faiths and Avatars, page 15
quote:
When a power (not just an avatar) dies, it is transported mystically to the Astral Plane to float for all eternity, moldering away slowly. The power itself drift helplessly in the silver void of the astral, occasionally stirring as if in slumber, but never reawakening unless special actions are taken to reinvest it with power to act.
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 22:07:25
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| I seem to recall a novel in which some people are trying to escape from some enemies. They area they are running on is the corpse of a god. I believe it was a Planescape Novel (Pages of Pain perhaps?) |
The Wanderer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 22:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
I seem to recall a novel in which some people are trying to escape from some enemies. They area they are running on is the corpse of a god. I believe it was a Planescape Novel (Pages of Pain perhaps?)
A couple chapters of Finder's Bane, which was written while Bane was still dead, were set on his corpse. |
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brjr2001
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 22:46:51
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some are gone but some still live
ohhh but the fallen god will have lost a considerable amount of worshipers |
on second thought lets not go to candlekeep it is a silly place |
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Arteris
Learned Scribe
121 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 23:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Arteris
What happens to gods when they die? Are they just forever obliterated? Or do they go to a plane for dead gods or what?
From Faiths and Avatars, page 15
quote:
When a power (not just an avatar) dies, it is transported mystically to the Astral Plane to float for all eternity, moldering away slowly. The power itself drift helplessly in the silver void of the astral, occasionally stirring as if in slumber, but never reawakening unless special actions are taken to reinvest it with power to act.
How do you go about resurecting a diety? Are their multiple ways or just one? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 00:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Arteris
How do you go about resurecting a diety? Are their multiple ways or just one?
The easiest way would be to simply wait for a new edition of D&D/FR as that seems to work.
However, for a more detailed explanation, Faiths & Avatars, page 15 again states that to start:
quote:
In order to live again as a deity, a power must be worshiped and cannot have been utterly destroyed...Then something must be done to suddenly and massively direct a great deal of worship power into the deity. This involves a prolonged ritual...
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 00:43:58
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So to "ressurect" a fallen deity, one would probably have to organize an entire culture or country into a massive night of worship and ceremony beconing to the god to return and shed light on his people? Thats intense. I can just imagine if Waukeen fell as a deity and all of Sembia rising up in a giant nation-wide all night ceremony of praise, worship and cries for her return.. That would be something else.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Windancer
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 01:16:25
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In the avatar series the gods that die take new avatars or disappear without a trace. |
Windancer |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 02:07:26
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The only problem I see with that windancer is the fact that we've seen gods taken down, who did not take on new avatars, return to become full gods once more, and in some cases larger and or more powerful than they were before their death, having taken portfolio's that previously belonged to them, as well as new ones from other gods.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:28:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arteris
What happens to gods when they die? Are they just forever obliterated? Or do they go to a plane for dead gods or what?
Mostly, as Sirius has already pointed out, "dead" gods (although it's been stated numerous times that a deity doesn't actually die) end up floating within the silvery void of the Astral Plane. Since they have few worshippers left, their power base effectively disappears, and the essence of the power itself simply phases out from it's home domain. However, there have been instances were "dead" deities have actually be able to chose a type of "death". Some have been allowed to lay dormant within inanimate objects, while others have chosen to merge with large tracts of land, or artificial constructs like buildings. There have even been some cases where a deity has chosen to "die" on purpose. For example, Paladine officially gave up his status as a deity in the DL setting, in order to maintain the Balance in the aftermath of the War of Souls. His choice left him without divine power, and he became a mortal living upon Krynn.
The important thing to remember about "dead" gods is that they are weakened beyond awareness. Taken from the Planescape setting -
quote:
These powers have been cast out of the planes to drift helplessly in the silver void. Not dead yet not alive, these so-called "god-isles" are slowly crumbling in an undying decay. Occasionally a dim glimmer of awareness stirs the power, and sometimes its thoughts and dreams overwhelm the squatters upon it.
quote:
I seem to recall a novel in which some people are trying to escape from some enemies. They area they are running on is the corpse of a god. I believe it was a Planescape Novel (Pages of Pain perhaps?)
A small tip... Never accept anything as canon, that was portrayed in a PS novel  .
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Edited by - The Sage on 15 Jul 2004 07:32:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Windancer
In the avatar series the gods that die take new avatars or disappear without a trace.
As I said previously, deities never truly die. They are the embodiments of alignment from the essence of the multiverse itself. It would be like saying that quarks can "live" and "die" (rather subjective terms I know, but it helps to illustrate my point) within our universe. Quarks are the essential "components" of all matter. Without them, existence itself would be impossible. I know that's a rather extreme example, but the powers essentially serve the same function. They are integral to the "life" of the multiverse. They are a part of it, made manifest. To remove them, would surely destroy the tapestry that holds the multiverse together.
Besides, just gaming within FR should already make this point invalid for you. The Forgotten Realms, more than any one setting from TSR/WotC, has shown (through numerous examples in both novel and sourcebook) that no deity, no matter it's cause of destruction, can truly disappear form the cosmic stage forever. Bane's return should more than make that point obvious...
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Edited by - The Sage on 15 Jul 2004 07:40:31 |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:42:45
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Aye, FR has made a point of bringing gods back at a whim. It's been the source of alot of debate around here I think...
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 20:58:35
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| Yes, another one is Orcus who was returned by one of his followers. Sadly, he isn't a deity anymore because of those new stupid rules in Player's Guide to Faerun... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 21:51:53
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BAH! Begone with 3.5! LoL. PGtF is the only 3.5 book I've bought, and that was merely in the hopes there would be some Lore value to it. After a single Disillusioning look at it, I've decided I draw the line at 3.0. 
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 21:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
BAH! Begone with 3.5! LoL. PGtF is the only 3.5 book I've bought, and that was merely in the hopes there would be some Lore value to it. After a single Disillusioning look at it, I've decided I draw the line at 3.0.
K
You are not alone as I've read more than one person expressing this opinion in an online forum.
This of course begs the question...what happens to previous editions when a new one comes out? Do they have a plane they go to?  |
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Jerard Doonsay
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 22:35:38
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| The only instance I can recal when a diety has died is in the Avatar Trilogy. Talk about death of the gods. Anyway, when Mystra died in the first book, she became a magic elemental, wich was afterward destroyed by Bane. Now the ascention of Midnight to Mystra rebalanced the cosmos, but for a time Mystra had died. And Bane himself died twice in the trilogy. The first time he ended up in a statue, and the second he was dead until Xvim was ready to hatch. Also, the deaths of Bhaal and Myrkul were involed as well. As was stated by The Sage, they now reside in a river and crown, respectively. |
May history live forever in the writings and stories of those who wish to tell them.
Please come and enjoy my website http://ferien.aribytes.org |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 13:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Yes, another one is Orcus who was returned by one of his followers. Sadly, he isn't a deity anymore because of those new stupid rules in Player's Guide to Faerun...
In the purest sense of the word, Orcus was never really a deity. Despite claims (and evidence to the contrary), the Abyssal Lords have no basis within the concept of deitism... it's simply a pretense that the Lords use to make themselves appear "more" than what they actually are. However, since an explanation for this will likely take this discussion beyond the Far Realm of Insanity...
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Edited by - The Sage on 16 Jul 2004 13:58:54 |
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Jerard Doonsay
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 16:42:14
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| Yah, see as far as I knew, Orcus was just a demon who aquisitioned himself a cult. Never enough worshipers to get atual deityhood, but enough to be annoying. |
May history live forever in the writings and stories of those who wish to tell them.
Please come and enjoy my website http://ferien.aribytes.org |
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brjr2001
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 18:02:53
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From Faiths and avatars
When a power (not just an avatar) dies, it is transported mystically to the Astral Plane to float for all eternity, moldering away slowly. The power itself drift helplessly in the silver void of the astral, occasionally stirring as if in slumber, but never reawakening unless special actions are taken to reinvest it with power to act.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 18:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by brjr2001
From Faiths and avatars
When a power (not just an avatar) dies, it is transported mystically to the Astral Plane to float for all eternity, moldering away slowly. The power itself drift helplessly in the silver void of the astral, occasionally stirring as if in slumber, but never reawakening unless special actions are taken to reinvest it with power to act.
This sounds familiar. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 18:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by brjr2001
From Faiths and avatars
When a power (not just an avatar) dies, it is transported mystically to the Astral Plane to float for all eternity, moldering away slowly. The power itself drift helplessly in the silver void of the astral, occasionally stirring as if in slumber, but never reawakening unless special actions are taken to reinvest it with power to act.
This sounds familiar.
Well met
Indeed  brjr2001, as pointed out previously in another scroll...please read the entire scroll before replying, so as to avoid giving duplicate information. In addition, replies should be informative and relevant and any arguments to information given by others should be followed up by corrective evidence and such.
Thank ye |
Alaundo
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 03:43:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Yes, another one is Orcus who was returned by one of his followers. Sadly, he isn't a deity anymore because of those new stupid rules in Player's Guide to Faerun...
In the purest sense of the word, Orcus was never really a deity. Despite claims (and evidence to the contrary), the Abyssal Lords have no basis within the concept of deitism... it's simply a pretense that the Lords use to make themselves appear "more" than what they actually are. However, since an explanation for this will likely take this discussion beyond the Far Realm of Insanity...
But then what was with Faiths & Pantheons listing him as a demigod awhile ago? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Jerard Doonsay
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 05:24:32
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quote:
quote:Originally posted by The Sage
quote:Originally posted by DDH_101
Yes, another one is Orcus who was returned by one of his followers. Sadly, he isn't a deity anymore because of those new stupid rules in Player's Guide to Faerun...
In the purest sense of the word, Orcus was never really a deity. Despite claims (and evidence to the contrary), the Abyssal Lords have no basis within the concept of deitism... it's simply a pretense that the Lords use to make themselves appear "more" than what they actually are. However, since an explanation for this will likely take this discussion beyond the Far Realm of Insanity...
But then what was with Faiths & Pantheons listing him as a demigod awhile ago?
As much as I hate to admit this, Orcus is in F&P. He is listed in the Appendix on page 221 as a lesser monster diety with the portfolio of Undead. It really makes me sad that he got to divinity.  |
May history live forever in the writings and stories of those who wish to tell them.
Please come and enjoy my website http://ferien.aribytes.org |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 05:57:37
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| I, personally, think that the Orcus entry in Faiths & Pantheons was a mistake, and that the PGtF was simply correcting it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Jul 2004 06:00:08 |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 06:29:14
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Why does Orcus always happen to worm his way into a topic??? Well not always but..... |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 06:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Why does Orcus always happen to worm his way into a topic???Well not always but.....
Hey, at least we don't have that one gent from the WotC forums over here... You know, the one who doesn't miss an opportunity to say "Orcus rules!"
I've nothing against Orcus (or that one particular fan), but that got old, quick. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 07:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hey, at least we don't have that one gent from the WotC forums over here... You know, the one who doesn't miss an opportunity to say "Orcus rules!"
I've nothing against Orcus (or that one particular fan), but that got old, quick.
I remember that poster. I got tired of all Orcus talk after encountering a couple of threads like that.
And to think some FR fans complain about exuberant Drizzt followers. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 09:34:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerard Doonsay
Yah, see as far as I knew, Orcus was just a demon who aquisitioned himself a cult. Never enough worshipers to get atual deityhood, but enough to be annoying.
He was something greater than that. Orcus *was* actually a deity. Like Baphomet, Demogorgon, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu, Orcus had what some might call "true divinity". Remember, he was a power of the undead.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 09:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerard Doonsay
As much as I hate to admit this, Orcus is in F&P. He is listed in the Appendix on page 221 as a lesser monster diety with the portfolio of Undead. It really makes me sad that he got to divinity.
As the ol' ham sandwich said (and I agree with him), Orcus's listing as a lesser deity in F&P should be considered a mistake. He held the portfolio of undead before his fall, that is true. But I like to think of that as nothing more than the fact that he was able to command great legions of undead. The BoVD states that fact, and that's why most see him as a "god" in the traditional sense.
Besides, if Orcus truly was a power, his position as Lord of Naratyr wouldn't be as vulnerabale to outside forces like Demogorgon, as BoVD makes out it is...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 15:04:01
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I was just sifting through my archives, when I came across this "dated" reference to Orcus in the Abyssal Lords: Demonology listing -
quote:
Orcus. Prince; also known as "The Goat," "The Black Prince," "Prince of the Undead," "Lord of Undeath," "Lord of Unlife," "King of Vampires," and "Master of the Dead." One of the six most powerful demons. Wars with Graz'zt and Demogorgon; allied with Marduk (?). Commands at least 12 (undead?) balors, and several less important lords, including Hacamuli, pay him homage. His wand has sometimes been allowed to enter the Prime Material plane and wreck havoc there. Orcus appears as a huge man with bat wings and a ram's head, with shark-like teeth. His realm, Thanatos, is composed of manifold layers populated with skeletal monsters, various sorts of zombies, huecuvae, shadows, sheet phantoms, vampires, and death knights. His dwelling is a great palace made of bones, rising out of ground bone meal. Said to have recently been dethroned and his Rod of Unlife lost or destroyed.
I was of the thought that perhaps a scribe or two would find it interesting...
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Gods and death
