| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 15:31:43
|
(-- his Realms novels, but that wouldn't fit in the subject line)
Continuing the discussion started on this thread:quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
But I think it is again a matter of First Impressions leaving a lasting impact.
Yes, and this is why a new reader -- one with an interest in the Realms per se and not only a setting for other people's stories -- should read at least a few of Ed's books early on. They're infused with the conscious and unconscious themes, gravitations and rhythms -- underground streams -- and habits of speech and action that underlie not only the existing Realms sourcebooks (of which about a third are directly by Ed and a larger proportion of the best and most continuingly relevant ones) but what will be written for the setting in the future under different managements and aided by different staff writers and freelancers. It would be foolish to ignore the many novels past and present by other authors that have worthwhile storytelling or worldbuilding or both; but it would also be sad to read too many of them before reading Ed and thus form an emotional first impression of the Realms that differs from its core, thus alienating yourself from the most perennial, widespread, and some of the deepest parts of the setting.
On Ed's novels not being D&D enough... well, the opposite accusation has been made! I wager they are very much like his game sessions in many ways, so it's likely a matter there of styles of D&D.
Woolly's point about the 'fast action' is accurate. Of course, that what the editors asked for, and I don't see many Realms novels that are much different in that regard. I echo Blueblade's point about the people being the Realms and I'm also surprised if Woolly didn't notice the great evocation of place Ed did in Spellfire for Shadowdale and the Elven Wood (better than the sequel, which I've told Ed I found too one-damn-thing-after-another, welcoming the quieter moments in Eveningstar).
I'm afraid I think I know very well which sourcebooks appeared free of Ed's helping hand...
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 06:37:08
|
| Eh. Ed Greenwood's novels seem to generate a "hate it or love it" reaction, IMO. A lot of people I know picked his novels up as their first venture into the Realms, and they ended up going away vowing, "I'll never, ever, touch anything FR-related again." (I'll spare you the exact rants about, say, Spellfire from a number of people. And hey, you probably know my stand where his writing is concerned already, so I won't repeat that.) |
 |
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 06:44:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
And hey, you probably know my stand where his writing is concerned already, so I won't repeat that.)
I know it, having read it on the board that shall not be named. Can I make a recommendation that might or might not go over well? Try Elminster's Daughter if you get a chance. I think the novel is better than anything else I've read from him. Perhaps my bias towards Cormyr is coming out, but I think he did a solid job with his latest novel. |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 06:56:31
|
| I liked Cormyr: A Novel, you know, but I also liked Jeff Grubb's writing a lot. Maybe I'll try to get my hand on Elminster's Daughter, but I read an excerpt and the style, by itself, still made me wince. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 06:58:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I liked Cormyr: A Novel, you know, but I also liked Jeff Grubb's writing a lot. Maybe I'll try to get my hand on Elminster's Daughter, but I read an excerpt and the style, by itself, still made me wince.
I tried. At least I wasn't asking for you to read a certain other popular FR author that the masses like.  |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 07:04:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I liked Cormyr: A Novel, you know, but I also liked Jeff Grubb's writing a lot. Maybe I'll try to get my hand on Elminster's Daughter, but I read an excerpt and the style, by itself, still made me wince.
I tried. At least I wasn't asking for you to read a certain other popular FR author that the masses like.
*shudders*
I swear, the only reason I'm reading the next one is to find out what happens to my beloved Marches... |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 14:54:59
|
Some people will have a strong negative response to any author, unless they write so blandly as to have little attractive power either. But if you respond in a 'I'm having nothing to do with this lousy Forgotten Realms' way to a novel of Ed, it's likely to be caused by some aspect of the *Realms*, that's present closer or further from the surface in other sources, rather than an aspect of his writing not found in his game products (those exist, but you have to think quite hard to define them). And if that's your response your chances *will* be better with another shared world, rather than hope there's some other Realms author who ignores major qualities of the setting as written by its creator.
Whereas if you really like a book by author Y, it *may* be in large part because of the setting which you'll then explore more generally; or it may be largely due to a unique aspect of their writing not found elsewhere in the Realms. Bob Salvatore's characters appeal to many, many people, and he's drawn many to the wider Realms, but judging anecdotally and by the rasalvatore.com message boards, a greater proportion of his readers don't develop more than a casual Realms-attachment. And in your case, Winterfox, do you have a strong interest in the Realms outside Elaine's books? It doesn't seem so from your not taking part in lore threads or finding anything to ask Ed in his thread.
I don't think we need to slag anyone off to discuss this. I shouldn't have started with my 'I think I know very well' comment. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 15:55:37
|
| [deleted needless, I thought, clarification] |
Edited by - Faraer on 15 Jun 2004 16:00:48 |
|
|
|
Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 05:11:45
|
Having talked to Ed extensively at a convention about the Waterdeep book he's writing with Elaine, I'm going to be VERY interested in Winterfox's opinion of that novel, when it comes out.
I'm curious: Winterfox, what fantasy authors do you like, inside the Realms and outside, too? The link in your sig seems to be all slagging books. Very curious. George R.R. Martin? Tolkien? McKillip? ? |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 07:36:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
The link in your sig seems to be all slagging books. Very curious. George R.R. Martin? Tolkien? McKillip? ?
Oh, come now. If it were "all-slagging books", the LJ would be a lot more full. Notice also that it's a community made for ranting, and the rants are not just mine.
George R.R. Martin, Frank Herbert (well, for the first three or so books of the Dune series, anyway; fine, so it's billed as sci-fi, but...), Feist and Wurts (but only for the Empires trilogy), Terry Pratchett (yay Discworld!), Elaine Cunningham, Richard Lee Byers, Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb, Weis and Hickman (for the Raistlin chronicles and, to some extent, the Deathgate Cycle. Hey, it features a dwarven princess, so...), Terry Brooks (only for the Landover novels; they're cute braincandy).
I can't bear Tolkien's storytelling and characterization.
Faraer said:
quote:
But if you respond in a 'I'm having nothing to do with this lousy Forgotten Realms' way to a novel of Ed, it's likely to be caused by some aspect of the *Realms*, that's present closer or further from the surface in other sources, rather than an aspect of his writing not found in his game products (those exist, but you have to think quite hard to define them).
Believe what you will. I'm not going to dig out all the rants from other message boards.
quote:
And in your case, Winterfox, do you have a strong interest in the Realms outside Elaine's books? It doesn't seem so from your not taking part in lore threads or finding anything to ask Ed in his thread.
Nope, not really. What about it? I've been following the WotSQ series, and the last book of FR I read was The Crimson Gold (which I didn't particularly love). I'm a bit burned out on fantasy, anyway, and have been almost exclusively reading KotOR fanfiction. (Some of which are actually far more entertaining and better written than some published fiction I've had the misfortune to run into. Oh well.) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 16 Jun 2004 07:40:43 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 16:16:03
|
| I don't recall that any of your rants argue against the point you quoted, just that you don't like Ed's writing. |
|
|
|
Tethtoril
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 20:19:31
|
*pounce*
Oooo, for a scribe I can move fast at times. 
This is getting woefully off-topic. Winterfox's 'rants' are not the debate here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and no one's opinion is more valuable than anyone else's. Please pass on and continue discussion of: The Status and Influence of Ed Greenwood's Novels ...
Else, I will chase you down with my staff and give you a good spanking.  |
Tethtoril
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood |
|
|
|
Juniphy
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 21:59:55
|
I for one will say that despite Greenwood's influence in the Realms I found his novels meaningless considering the skills of the other authors. Before any fanatics jump at my throat, I'll say I have had the misfortune of reading many of Greenwood's stuff. Many times over I have delude myself to hoping that he could improve, sigh..
I find other authors influence in the Realms far more interesting. For example, Elaine Cunnigham's Counselors and Kings. Wow, I love that trilogy. It breathes life and culture into Halruaa never done before. It was rich and inventive.
Even if Halruaa is a small part of the Realms, seeing as how well she portrayed it. I prefer her perspective rather than that of Greenwood's hundreds of characters with the same persona and indistinctive cultures. |
I listen to songs in languages I don't understand |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 22:21:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Juniphy
I for one will say that despite Greenwood's influence in the Realms I found his novels meaningless considering the skills of the other authors. Before any fanatics jump at my throat, I'll say I have had the misfortune of reading many of Greenwood's stuff. Many times over I have delude myself to hoping that he could improve, sigh..
Sirius looks at clock...5...4...3...2...1... |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 06:17:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I don't recall that any of your rants argue against the point you quoted, just that you don't like Ed's writing.
I meant other people's rants in other message boards. Sweet merciful mother of deities. Believe me, there really exist people other than me who think Mr. Ed Greenwood's abilities as a novelist... leave something to be desired. Astounding, yes?
Juniphy? Oh my. Please, run; I'll cover your back. Or at least put on a flameproof apron.
quote:
Originally posted by Juniphy
I find other authors influence in the Realms far more interesting. For example, Elaine Cunnigham's Counselors and Kings. Wow, I love that trilogy. It breathes life and culture into Halruaa never done before. It was rich and inventive.
And on that I completely agree. |
|
|
|
Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 07:21:01
|
A comment about Ed Greenwood's writing ability being inflamatory--Only slightly
For Major Inflamation Try: An "Elminster vs Drizzt" topic or stating that "Troy Denning rules!"(My impressions thus far--if they are wrong then at least I live up to my name.)
Now moving back to the actual topic: I do not believe that it is essential for any person to read "a few" of any author's works to appreciate the realms. The setting is to diverse for it to be summarized or even for one author to exemplify the "core" of the realms because of it's massive size (there have easily been over 100 works of fiction-novels and short stories). I concur with Juniphy's assessment: Various author's have "defined" certain areas of the realms in the eyes of readers--RAS with Menzo, Cunningham with Halruaa, Greenwood with The Heartlands. Readers decied what interpretations they most enjoy and resultantly which are worth exploring further-->That will ultimately define what the themes of the setting are and what they will become.
One More point: Sourcebooks should all include the name Ed Greenwood on them, no matter what it costs WotC. |
Carthago delenda est. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 14:55:54
|
No surprise not everyone loves Ed's writing, though it may be surprising that some have cared enough to go to such effort to say so, or keep reading it when they don't like it -- Juniphy, my advice, stop.
Ignorance, the Heartlands *are* in large part the Realms, certainly the part first and most developed, and most fondly looked on; have been since 1987 and look set to stay so. And doesn't my point hold that if like Juniphy you find them 'indistinctive', your chances are better with a shared world made more to your liking (though of course you *might* luck out and find another author you like working in Ed's world)?
Lashan would say that all the novels are unnecessary; and one argument to that is that with the reduced sourcebook output the fiction shoulders more of the burden of providing both the lore and glamour of the Realms.
There are few shared-world, write-for-hire books that are as much worth reading, in themselves, as a first-rate stand-alone novel. But, they compensate with the vocabulary of emotional and meaningful context developed by the whole web of the Realms. In a world of diverse stories and interpretations, an intense, direct, or rigid symbolism would be impossible to maintain; so a lower-key, more submerged, sometimes ruder sometimes subtler series of undercurrents has come in play -- in Ed's books, I find, to great effect and one which resonates through other writers' works. |
|
|
|
Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 22:41:11
|
This is an interesting thread, and I feel moved to de-lurk for the very first time and post my contribution.
The postings in this thread, pro and con, are each really just one reader’s personal opinion (Faraer, who evidently makes a living doing editorial work, being the exception). Judgment of literary merit is a matter of the passage of time, changing tastes, and a large measure of unpredictability.
What CAN be measured is sales: the number of readers willing to pay good money to read an author’s book. This holds true particularly if hardcovers and sequels in series are scrutinized, the first because hardcovers are expensive, and the second because they represent a lower percentage of “someone trying Author X once” than does the first book by Author X, or the first book in a new series by Author X. Only people who failed math or think that all of publishing is some vast conspiracy of friends who get each other published will successfully be able to deny that Ed makes the bestseller lists regularly, AND gets more contracts than almost any other living writer I know of -- neither feats accomplished through the praise of what an earlier poster here calls “fanatics.” Most large, successful publishers are hard-nosed businesspeople, and they don’t go on giving big contracts to people who don’t sell.
However, sales, good and bad, are very much “here and now” things. Influence is best measured in two ways: how an author affects the work of other authors, writing later in the same genre, and by the regard of the writer’s peers (that is, fellow writers, and to some extent publishers) at the time the writer is active.
I am a longtime and successful published writer of science fiction, and have a “day job” with a major American publishing house. I’ve won awards in the field and am a member of SFWA. I mention the latter because “gaming-related fiction” is a sub-genre whose works and practitioners are widely looked down on in sf circles.
Despite this, I know of twelve of my SFWA colleagues, besides myself (including four “hard” sf writers, and our ranks also include multiple winners of Hugos and Nebulas; all but one of us have at least been nominated for one of these awards, and although the former can be viewed as a “fan popularity contest,” the latter is awarded by fellow SFWA members) who regularly send early drafts of their novels to Ed Greenwood for his opinions on how to improve their stories. This is a clear indication of his influence in the field, because to do this we must all trust his ethics AND his judgment.
I’m sure all of you are familiar with “blurbs,” those glowing little quotations that appear on the back (and sometimes front) covers of novels, praising the work or its author. The people who write them don’t get paid to do so (unless a professional reviewer is being quoted), and don’t get to volunteer to write them, either. A publisher sends out Advance Reading Copies (bound galleys) of a work not just because they expect quotable praise in return -- but because the writer of the blurb has stature (influence). That’s the only way the blurb becomes a selling point. In my experience, only marketing flacks and librarians pay much attention to who gets to write how many blurbs, but if you look back over sf and fantasy books published by people Ed doesn’t know personally, but that have Ed Greenwood blurbs on their covers, the total is quite high. That’s another irrefutable mark of influence.
I’ve talked with the Wizards book publishing staff at trade fairs such as Book Expo America (where Ed appeared this year, signing books for both of his major publishers), and according to them, within the Forgotten Realms publishing line, his influence is paramount: even if he isn’t consulted directly about a work, his lore -- or works based on it -- will have been handed to the author. Hooded One, if you read this, could you check with Ed as to how many times JUST THIS WEEK Wizards staff have communicated with him regarding help or queries for Realms fiction written or to be written by others?
Other indications of Ed’s influence include schools and libraries choosing him as a speaker or to lead workshops or to recommend and select books for their collections. He’s worked in libraries for thirty years, and it should not be overlooked that the American Library Association selected HIM to interview Sir Arthur C. Clarke at the annual ALA conference this year (instead of Geoffrey Landis and Vernor Vinge, two award-winning science fiction writers who will be present at that interview). Another irrefutable indication of Ed’s stature and influence.
While I’m mentioning panels, Winterfox mentioned Terry Pratchett, one of the world’s greatest fantasy writers, as among the writers she likes. He’s one of my favorites, too, and one of Ed’s as well. There was a Terry Pratchett panel at Worldcon (the World Science Fiction Convention) this past August. Only two writers were on that panel: Terry was one, of course -- and Ed Greenwood was the other.
George R.R. Martin (also mentioned by Winterfox) was Guest of Honor at that Worldcon, and Spider Robinson was Toastmaster. Who was George sitting with, after his speech? Ed Greenwood. Who did Spider and his wife Jeanne spend time chatting with at BEA this year? Ed Greenwood.
To those who argue that “because Ed’s a nice guy, such things only say he’s influential or well-regarded, not his novels” I counter-argue that of the twelve SFWA colleagues I mentioned earlier, I know that six are non-gamers (one of them scornfully so), and I strongly suspect that at least another four haven’t played anything beyond card games, chess, checkers, and backgammon. Moreover, there are a lot of nice professionals in the field. Therefore, Ed’s influence is a direct reflection of how his fantasy novels are regarded.
Ed will tell you (as he’s told me) that they’re flawed, some of them thanks to editing but more of them because he’s still learning how to end a book neatly inside a given wordcount. I will add two things: Ed more than any other writer I know can do the Chameleon act: write in the style of other writers, on a given topic and to a given length, better than any writer I’ve known since the pulp wordsmiths. In fact, he does it so quickly and makes it look so easy that he might as well BE one of those golden old pros.
In addition to this, Publishers Weekly (THE journal of the North American book trade) gave his latest TOR book, The Silent House, the sort of glowing review most fantasy writers would kill for. You can read a few paragraphs of it on Amazon. I also happen to know that a Canadian publishing house not only consulted Ed as to how they should launch sf and fantasy books and other genre imprints, they recommended his expertise to others!
I can see that some of you might read these words and decide I’m either Ed writing in disguise, or Ed’s lover or best friend, so I’ll say flatly right now that none of those guises fit me.
Some might sneer at all of the name-dropping above as evidence that Ed’s some sort of social climber, but his colleagues in SFWA know differently.
He’s a friend and “Father Confessor” confidant many of us turn to when story go wrong. THAT is influence.
That he commands so much of it whilst being seen as a writer of the “gaming-related fiction” almost universally sneered at, in the profession -- rather than a perennial award nominee or a bestseller-list-dwelling writer, is a measure of Ed Greenwood.
Many of you gamers seem to take great glee in trashing the creatives who craft the games you profess to enjoy. Wild fan adulation gets tiresome, too (and yes, I know this from personal experience), but, really: cut these people some slack, okay? Or they just might decide that installing garage door openers is a more fulfilling line of work, and you’ve lost them. (And to all those who sneer that Ed Greenwood or anyone else sucks, and you can do it better, I offer three words: prove it. Please.)
|
|
|
|
Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 23:20:41
|
Thanks Sage of Stars for sharing an insight that is sadly lacking within most fan-sites.
Your post demonstrates one of the reasons that I love Candlekeep. It is very hard to find a fan based site that has the interaction that this one does with the various authors as well as their ravenous (and occasionally rabid) fans.
Knowing how time consuming it is to scan various message boards, I realize how easy it would be for the various authors that come here to simply look at one less. I would hate to think that a hostile environment here would lead to this.
Not to say that we all need to drop to our knees and begin chanting "We're not worthy." It is just that we should be more appreciative that the garage-door installation field is not more lucrative.
Sarta |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 00:38:37
|
Well met, Sage of Stars. I’m going to have fun guessing (privately) just who you might be, but of course I’m not going to ask: like me, if you’d wanted to -- or been able to, yes? -- share, you’d have posted under your name.
As you suggested, I checked with Ed, without relaying your post to him or telling him why I wanted to know, and here’s his reply:
Well, they know Elaine and I are pushing the Waterdeep book down the homestretch, so it’s been a slow week. Two timeline queries, three little lore matters and one big one, two ‘can you still have your original files for Old Project X, and can you convert and send them pronto?’ requests, and one ‘how should I fix this?’ query directly from a fellow Realms writer. I love doing it, so: no biggie. Keeps me in the loop, keeps the old brain dancing, and helps me rediscover all sorts of interesting things I’ve tucked away and forgotten about. I wish I could share even hints of some of the Realms fiction projects other folks are crafting, right now, but as you know . . . take my word for it, there’s some exciting stuff. I can say that Wizards is launching a new teens imprint, Mirrorstone, because they had ARCs and Matt Forbeck signing at BEA, and will have something at ALA, too. Must snatch some time with Peter there to scheme about the Future of the Realms, bwoohahahaha and so on. :}
So saith Ed. Needless to say, I concur with your remarks as to his influence. I also think his better Realms books (the last two Elminster books, Stormlight, and Cormyr: A Novel) are well-written, solid fantasy books in the top quarter of quality among modern published fantasy -- a better record than many famous writers ever achieve.
THO
|
|
|
|
Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 01:10:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Well met, Sage of Stars. I’m going to have fun guessing (privately) just who you might be, but of course I’m not going to ask: like me, if you’d wanted to -- or been able to, yes? -- share, you’d have posted under your name.
Hahaha, it is almost as if I can hear the theme song to "Mission Impossible" playing already. Welcome to our world. 
Sarta |
|
|
|
Tethtoril
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 01:20:04
|
Thanks to all for their diligent discussion of this topic. However, it has veered wildly from the true meaning of Candlekeep. (Lore of the FR and in this particular topic it should be focused on the novels and this particular scroll on the novels by Ed Greenwood and the influence they have had.) 
So with the two magnificent posts from the Sage of Stars and from The Hooded One - I seal this scroll away.
|
Tethtoril
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Status and influence of Ed Greenwood's novels
Topic Locked
