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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 22:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
*this also opens a new topic, though unrelated to the one at hand. And is that if humans were ape-like by the time of the sarrukh, it seems that they also "suffered" a process of rapid evolution like the dragons, to get to their current homo-sapiens status. Unless the humans of the Realms aren't homo-sapiens — though, they are still evolved apes, canonically...
Its quite obvious by the timeline alone that Natural Selection is not the origin of species. It is basically stated that the Sarrukh manipulated the pre-humans magically.
Trying to explain anything scientifically in a D&D world usually fails. Nothing will stand up to that scrutiny.
I think the same. However, evolution has been used officially to explain stuff in the setting, specifically about dragons (see the 2e Draconomicon). So, there is that. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
174 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 22:40:22
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quote:
So, you can accept that the humans that were brought to serve the Imaskari came from Earth, that their gods followed them, that the Egyptian gods are real... and thus their mythology might be real in that "they created humans from tears of Happiness"... but you can't accept that those multiplanar godly entities might not have created similar beings on other worlds? Or that other gods might not have created similar beings using the same form of magic?
The whole D&D cosmology does teeter on the edge of collapse when throwing things like that into it (also Gothic Earth being a thing, presumably a separate world to Actual Earth, but both being incredibly similar to one another).
It's just personal preference. I'd rather a single origin rather than saying, "well they created them here...and identical creatures here...and here." Dragons seem to predate the creation of Toril so seem to have a different point of origin, the elves definitely don't come from Toril, neither do orcs, so they seem to be okay with having a single, and different origin to simply loads of them existing at different places in the multiverse just because (and who knows what's up with the dwarves). The alternative, which would have been my preference but the ship sailed on that forty years ago, is Earth simply not existing in the D&D multiverse, at all.
It's also one of those things I doubt they're ever going to make a formal canon ruling on. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 00:29:26
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Sorry fellow Sages, I cannot check my sources right now but I'm pretty sure there were elves on Toril well before the Seldarin worshipping one appeared.
Also, on the pre-humans, is this the Sarrukh going "What? You cannot create a new race just to scratch behind your ears?!? You must be an ape ... stupid animal ... why am I even ... oh wait, you can scratch other parts ... stand still ...." or are there other sources?
Because I'm also quite sure that humans were regarded as the late blossoming 5th creator race.
... man I hate not having the time to check my sourcebooks ... |
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varyar
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 00:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Sorry fellow Sages, I cannot check my sources right now but I'm pretty sure there were elves on Toril well before the Seldarin worshipping one appeared.
I've been digging into Grand History of the Realms and you're correct - the first elves in Toril (green and dark elves) worshiped the powers of Faerie/Feywild, not the Seldarine (that came later with the gold and silver elf survivors of Tintageer, even though that was part of Faerie, too - the Evermeet novel is explicit on both parts). |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 01:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
My take on it is that Earth is the ultimate human homeworld for all humans in the D&D multiverse. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense for some humans to come from Earth (the Mulan) and others not; we'd have to imagine parallel evolution and other things that starts to generate headaches real quick, in a Battlestar Galactica finale "we didn't think this through properly" kind of way.
Didn't they fixed that by saying humans where among the first inhabitants of Sigil, and that's why they became so common in the multiverse? That's what they said in the 5e Planescape sourcebook. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 01:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Sorry fellow Sages, I cannot check my sources right now but I'm pretty sure there were elves on Toril well before the Seldarin worshipping one appeared.
quote:
Originally posted by varyar
I've been digging into Grand History of the Realms and you're correct - the first elves in Toril (green and dark elves) worshiped the powers of Faerie/Feywild, not the Seldarine (that came later with the gold and silver elf survivors of Tintageer, even though that was part of Faerie, too - the Evermeet novel is explicit on both parts).
Yeah, but still happens after the time of the Creator Races. Specifically, in the Age of Dragons/Giants. Which means that there cannot be elves predating sarruth and the not-australopithecus. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2024 : 19:30:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Sorry fellow Sages, I cannot check my sources right now but I'm pretty sure there were elves on Toril well before the Seldarin worshipping one appeared.
quote:
Originally posted by varyar
I've been digging into Grand History of the Realms and you're correct - the first elves in Toril (green and dark elves) worshiped the powers of Faerie/Feywild, not the Seldarine (that came later with the gold and silver elf survivors of Tintageer, even though that was part of Faerie, too - the Evermeet novel is explicit on both parts).
Yeah, but still happens after the time of the Creator Races. Specifically, in the Age of Dragons/Giants. Which means that there cannot be elves predating sarruth and the not-australopithecus.
Right, sorry, I'm still foggy. But this discussion on elves made me realise that the fey are indeed supposed to be around as one of the creator races (and they created those first elves).
They are not interlopers and they are at least contemporary to the Sarrukh and Batrachi, so maybe they emerged as spirit loci? Embodying in a way the essence of the wildest, most untamed places on Toril (Rashemen-telthor style)? Already there and spontaneous or birthed by the dreams of Chauntea?
We know both in Faerun and Kara-tur the untamed natural places are full of "spirits", old Toril must have been even more "natural" and untouched, so makes sense for lots of spirits/fey to be around |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2024 : 00:37:12
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This whole discussion makes me wish for a GHotR prequel.
With that being said, here’s a follow up question. Say your wand of wonder blows up in a wild magic zone or whatever weirdness occurs to send a whole party back 100000 or 1000000 or 1000000000 years ago. What do they see? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2024 : 04:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Right, sorry, I'm still foggy. But this discussion on elves made me realise that the fey are indeed supposed to be around as one of the creator races (and they created those first elves).
They are not interlopers and they are at least contemporary to the Sarrukh and Batrachi, so maybe they emerged as spirit loci? Embodying in a way the essence of the wildest, most untamed places on Toril (Rashemen-telthor style)? Already there and spontaneous or birthed by the dreams of Chauntea?
We know both in Faerun and Kara-tur the untamed natural places are full of "spirits", old Toril must have been even more "natural" and untouched, so makes sense for lots of spirits/fey to be around
Nothing to be sorry about, my friend. We are all lore nerds here, 
Anyways, the GHotR says that the fey Creator Race summoned those first green elves from Faerie (aka the Feywild). So, they didn't created them. Seems that these elves are still the children of Corellon (as official materials say all elves are creations of Corellon), even if they didn't worship him as a god yet (as the Seldarine didn't existed yet at the time)
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
With that being said, here’s a follow up question. Say your wand of wonder blows up in a wild magic zone or whatever weirdness occurs to send a whole party back 100000 or 1000000 or 1000000000 years ago. What do they see?
If I had to do something like this IME, I would do something akin The Shadow Out of Time, with the original ancient aboleths of Xxiphu fighting against flying polyps and some equivalent for the Great Race of Yith. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jan 2024 05:01:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2024 : 05:09:51
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I theorize that the gold and moon elves did not come directly from the plane of Faerie.
We see in Evermeet that they are fleeing the destruction of their home, and they clearly felt going to another world entirely was better than trying to go to another spot on the same world... But planes can't be destroyed that readily (if at all) and we know that Faerie is still around.
So I theorize that there was an earlier migration from the plane of Faerie to a Prime world that the elves also called Faerie, in honor/remembrance of their original home -- Faerie 2.0, if you will. And it was this Prime world that was being fled from in the beginning of Evermeet.
Over time, the refugee elves and their descendants conflated the plane of Faerie with the Prime world they called Faerie, eventually forgetting that the two were separate places. |
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varyar
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2024 : 21:10:50
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| One thing I've always wondered is who attacked Tintageer? The novel doesn't given any hints, beyond the fact that they were powerful enough to destroy the city/island/realm. A rival faction from Faerie (whichever version!) or some infernal power or what? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 14:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Sorry fellow Sages, I cannot check my sources right now but I'm pretty sure there were elves on Toril well before the Seldarin worshipping one appeared.
quote:
Originally posted by varyar
I've been digging into Grand History of the Realms and you're correct - the first elves in Toril (green and dark elves) worshiped the powers of Faerie/Feywild, not the Seldarine (that came later with the gold and silver elf survivors of Tintageer, even though that was part of Faerie, too - the Evermeet novel is explicit on both parts).
Yeah, but still happens after the time of the Creator Races. Specifically, in the Age of Dragons/Giants. Which means that there cannot be elves predating sarruth and the not-australopithecus.
Not sure of the point here.. but just to point out, it very well could be that SOME elves simply came to be here (i.e. godly creation of a race, rather than migration). The fact that they didn't immediately rule the world doesn't mean much if they stayed in one area, weren't immediately gifted with magical knowledge, etc... It very well could be that there were some early elves that were "born of the world".
It also may be that in the dark annals of elven history that we find out that they BRED their way into the world. What do I mean by that? In a somewhat similar way to the tiefling's "breeding true"... elves were noted for a time to "breed true". One could in theory see a small tribe of elves with less moralistic views breeding a generation of half elves THEN breeding those into "full elves" in the next generation.
Not saying any of this is true.... just throwing out some oddball ideas that people might be interested in playing with. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Feb 2024 14:30:25 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 15:11:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I theorize that the gold and moon elves did not come directly from the plane of Faerie.
We see in Evermeet that they are fleeing the destruction of their home, and they clearly felt going to another world entirely was better than trying to go to another spot on the same world... But planes can't be destroyed that readily (if at all) and we know that Faerie is still around.
So I theorize that there was an earlier migration from the plane of Faerie to a Prime world that the elves also called Faerie, in honor/remembrance of their original home -- Faerie 2.0, if you will. And it was this Prime world that was being fled from in the beginning of Evermeet.
Over time, the refugee elves and their descendants conflated the plane of Faerie with the Prime world they called Faerie, eventually forgetting that the two were separate places.
The more I've heard people espousing this concept, the more I've come to like it. I also like the idea that "Evermeet" coming over from "Faerie" wasn't pulling the land from the feywild... but rather from this other world.... and that the elves didn't reaize it, but THEY were the source of the original issue that made them have to flee that world as their High Magic went awry (maybe time flowed different between the two "crystal spheres" / "wildspace systems" ... or they tried to grab their home island BEFORE it got destroyed)
I would also point out too that in that same Evermeet novel, there are references to Kiaransalee worship long ago (I'd have to pull out the book to find the references though). Kiaransalee arose to godhood by destroying all/most of the life "on the planet of Threnody". It could easily be written up that spacefaring or planehopping elves came to Toril and brought worship of Kiaransalee with them from another world as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 17:55:14
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| Or that the world of Threnody is where the elves came from... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 23:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Or that the world of Threnody is where the elves came from...
Possibility... at the same time... and I'd have to review Evermeet isle of elves... but I want to say that it was the gold elves that came from Tintageer and ... I want to say it was the ilythiiri (sp?) that were worshipping Kiaransalee... and I want to say there were hints that they didn't have the same origins. That being said... long time, memory ain't great.
EDIT: did a little research... found the reference to Kiaransalee... links below... my summary after. But they didn't BRING worship of Kiaransalee with them, so my memory was faulty on that.
[url]https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kethryllia_Amarillis[url]
[url]https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Haeshkarr[url]
[url]https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ilythiir[url]
So, may have been wrong on the Ilythiiri side with linking Threnody seems like it was
Kiaransalee was already a god, so Threnody already dead
Kethryllia the moon elf went to the demonweb pits chasing a demon named Haeshkarr who had captured her lover, where she met Kiaransalee
Kiaransalee apparently "helped" Kethryllia find the demon, but only if she'd call out to Corellon. Calling out to Corellon attracted Lolth's attention, who had her followed back to Toril.
Lolth came to Toril and took an ilythiiri named Ka'Narlist as her lover and bore him children, seducing him away from the worship of Ghaunadar.
So, this would have all been in the -24400 to -24500 DR timeframe.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Feb 2024 23:50:07 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 23:40:23
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Take this for what it's worth (I think it was included for the creep factor and not based on any official material the developers consumed): in the Baldur's Gate CRPGs, Doppelgangers will refer to the PC and his followers as "primates". Then again, they will cry out this insult no matter the party's composition (be it entirely Human, Elven, Gnomish, Dwarven, Halfling or some mix). Furthermore, there's a bit of descriptive text that appears in the second title...something like "The hairs on the back of your neck stand up."...that will appear even if the PC is an Elf, so I think a bit of artistic license was in play.
As for my opinion on the matter...The Forgotten Realms (Faerun, in particular) is fantasy escapism generally modeled on Western quasi-medieval mythology. Because language influences thought and thought can shape immersion, there will be no mention of "evolution", "genetics", "electromagnetism", "osmosis" and the like in my campaigns. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Blue Age/Shadow Epoch and Before
