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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2446 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 02:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Earth: Debates between atheists and religious adherents.
Toril: Survived the ToT and has oodles of clerics, druids and other divine spellcasters.
Edit: Toy changed to ToT. Autocorrect is not always your ally.
Was there a surfeit of such discourse during the Time of Troubles?
On the other hand, atheists in the post-Spellplague Realms can be certain that in some places gods actually don't exist. So, atheism in the Realms is about traveling, lol |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 05:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Earth: Debates between atheists and religious adherents.
Toril: Survived the ToT and has oodles of clerics, druids and other divine spellcasters.
Edit: Toy changed to ToT. Autocorrect is not always your ally.
Was there a surfeit of such discourse during the Time of Troubles?
On the other hand, atheists in the post-Spellplague Realms can be certain that in some places gods actually don't exist. So, atheism in the Realms is about traveling, lol
Boo. Hiss.
 .
I have always thought that atheism and/or agnosticism is an odd stance in a world with gods whose presence is not in question; the closest "reasonable" justification I've seen comes from Planescape (i.e., "There are powerful beings at the top, but they are not the 'true' gods."). |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 06:05:15
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In our world the afterlife is a promise (or a threat). An article of faith.
Atheists are not convinced by the "evidence" - they lack belief in any god because they see no proof any god exists. The "evidence" always has other (better) explanations which do not even require or support supernatural entities.
In the Realms, the afterlife is assured. The planes are known. The domains of the deities are known. Celestials and fiends - angels and devils, archons and demons - can be contacted or summoned by magics, they can manifest as agents of greater powers, they can grant spells and abilities, they can be fought or bargained with. Priests are granted miraculous powers - they can even communicate with the dead or bring the dead back to life - by invoking the gods they worship.
There is really no question about the existence of gods in the Realms - only a fool would stubbornly deny all the tangible evidence.
(There could be questions about the validity or authenticity of gods. Are they truly supreme and fundamental powers or are they merely immortals more potent and advanced than the mortals who worship them? But such theological analyses probably aren't popular in the Realms, since those who are Faithless get stuffed into the Wall or dragged away by fiends. The distinction between a true god and an ersatz god isn't too meaningful when either one wields real power over the world. It's hard to reject the entire cosmos, even in Planescape.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Sep 2022 06:20:54 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 15:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's hard to reject the entire cosmos, even in Planescape.
If I remember rightly, Planescape: Torment has one character who can be convinced to do this, and he promptly pops out of existence in a puff of logic. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 19:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's hard to reject the entire cosmos, even in Planescape.
If I remember rightly, Planescape: Torment has one character who can be convinced to do this, and he promptly pops out of existence in a puff of logic.
Sounds like something out of the Hitchhiker's Trilogy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2022 : 20:20:07
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Inverse example ->
Earth: Cross-cultural romances are fairly significant (for better and for worse).
The Realms: Cross-cultural romances between a people pale in comparison to cross-species/racial romances (e.g. human <-> elf, human <-> halfling, human <-> orc, human <-> dragon, et cetera). |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2022 : 04:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's hard to reject the entire cosmos, even in Planescape.
If I remember rightly, Planescape: Torment has one character who can be convinced to do this, and he promptly pops out of existence in a puff of logic.
Sounds like something out of the Hitchhiker's Trilogy.
If you claim to be "Adahn" in conversations about a dozen times (unique conversations, not just repeats to the same people), then Adahn will actually manifest in the Smoldering Corpse Bar. He's a real person - albeit a confused, absent-minded, distracted, preoccupied, and incomplete one with suspicious gaps of memory - even though he's apparently just a figment of your imagination given reality through the conviction of your improvised claims. He is instantly familiar, somehow, and recognizes you as an "old friend" - he's been waiting for you, he returns some items he's been holding for you - and he fades into nonexistence as the conversation concludes.
There are hints from the game devs (and in the game files) which suggest Adahn might be the Nameless One's original name, a remnant of life lost after untold centuries of immortality. Then again, there are similar hints with several other names.
In any case, the interaction with Adahn rewards the player with some experience (which represents memories being regained or relearned, identity being recovered) and some advantages during the final confrontation with The Transcendent One.
This peculiar phenomenon might happen to anyone in Planescape, in theory. But I think it's extremely rare for most people, in practice.
Nameless has a unique story which involves his flawed immortality. His frayed and tormented soul unravels a little more each time he lives and dies again, parts of himself are left (or lost) everywhere he's been, sometimes these parts cluster together to form other versions of himself he encounters again as dreams, nightmares, strangers, allies, or enemies. He's a composite of countless other people, versions of himself which have been discarded or avoided, embraced and discovered again, taken along countless differently contradictory paths to many now-forgotten destinations. It's plausible (and plausibly-deniable) that he was Adahn in a previous life. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Sep 2022 05:06:32 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2022 : 17:21:23
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| Yes, but is that a property of Sigil itself, the "Planescape setting" in general or The Nameless One in particular? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 21:02:35
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Earth: Visiting a cemetery is a quiet and often somber affair.
The Realms: Visiting a cemetery may involve a battle with the residents. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2022 : 23:55:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Earth: Visiting a cemetery is a quiet and often somber affair.
The Realms: Visiting a cemetery may involve a battle with the residents.
The latter can depend on the timing and the locale. The City of the Dead, in Waterdeep, is something of a park, during daylight hours. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2022 : 03:53:56
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Earth: Vacationing at the coast? A capital idea!
The Realms: Vacationing at the Sword Coast? A crazy idea! |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2022 : 03:56:10
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Ayrik, what happened to your awesome and informative post  ?
--- --- ---
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Earth: Visiting a cemetery is a quiet and often somber affair.
The Realms: Visiting a cemetery may involve a battle with the residents.
The latter can depend on the timing and the locale. The City of the Dead, in Waterdeep, is something of a park, during daylight hours.
A fairly related thought ->
You know the spell Speak with Dead, yeah? Do you think it is possible at the more civilized/regimented cemeteries that family or a friend of the deceased can entreat a sensitive priest (typically a Kelemvorite, but I imagine a Lathanderite or other Good-aligned servant of a god would fit the bill) to question the dead as a way of putting their minds at ease? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2022 : 04:09:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Ayrik, what happened to your awesome and informative post ?
I thought your question was already answered. Nothing more needed to be said. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2022 : 19:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Ayrik, what happened to your awesome and informative post ?
I thought your question was already answered. Nothing more needed to be said.
You did go more in-depth, however. In any case, it would have been nice to see the explanation kept around for posterity. Oh well. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2022 : 06:14:22
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Azar ...
Consider that Nameless also interacts with a few other "unreal" characters - the ghost of Deionarra, the "paranoid" "practical" "good" and "evil" incarnations/aspects of himself, a variety of angels and demons which apparently manifest from his own memories, the "true identity" of Ravel hidden within a trinity of living souls, etc.
These all seem to be things brought to life from Nameless himself. Unconsciously, unknowingly, unintentionally. An essential part of his story being told and retold again and again and again. They aren't the sort of thing which happens to "ordinary" planars, primes, and proxies who visit Sigil. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2022 : 14:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Azar ...
Consider that Nameless also interacts with a few other "unreal" characters - the ghost of Deionarra, the "paranoid" "practical" "good" and "evil" incarnations/aspects of himself, a variety of angels and demons which apparently manifest from his own memories, the "true identity" of Ravel hidden within a trinity of living souls, etc.
These all seem to be things brought to life from Nameless himself. Unconsciously, unknowingly, unintentionally. An essential part of his story being told and retold again and again and again. They aren't the sort of thing which happens to "ordinary" planars, primes, and proxies who visit Sigil.
The other incarnation are in the Fortress of Regrets, which is born of the Nameless One (as in, the body taken throughout his life, not this particular incarnation). They have memories that he can't remember without them. So if you mean they were born from this incarnation, that seems false, and if you say they were born from his life, that's trivially true, since they're him at a different time.
Deionarra truly existed, since we get to meet her father, and leaving her ghost behind was part of the plan of the practical incarnation, so this ghost is as real as ghost get. It's just that few people in the mortuary would know about her, so she has no reason to appear.
As for the "other Ravels", this is what she is: her soul is like a tree, and the branches travel through the Planes. We get to meet one of them in each of the Icewind Dale games, and the Nameless One is nowhere to be found.
For the demons and angels, it depends which ones you mean. But it is a fact of the Planes that belief can affect the real world, to the point that it is one of the possible answers to Ravel's riddle as to what can change the nature of a man, and the key to one of the possible ways to defeat the Transcendent One.
"I've seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil hag's heart half-circle. This entire Fortress has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a woman, whose heart clung to the hope that another loved her when he did not. Once, it made a man seek immortality and achieve it. And it has made a posturing spirit think it is something more than a part of me." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2022 : 14:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Ayrik, what happened to your awesome and informative post ?
--- --- ---
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Earth: Visiting a cemetery is a quiet and often somber affair.
The Realms: Visiting a cemetery may involve a battle with the residents.
The latter can depend on the timing and the locale. The City of the Dead, in Waterdeep, is something of a park, during daylight hours.
A fairly related thought ->
You know the spell Speak with Dead, yeah? Do you think it is possible at the more civilized/regimented cemeteries that family or a friend of the deceased can entreat a sensitive priest (typically a Kelemvorite, but I imagine a Lathanderite or other Good-aligned servant of a god would fit the bill) to question the dead as a way of putting their minds at ease?
This is why I like topics like this... they kind of veer off as one idea spawns another. I can honestly say, I've almost exclusively looked at speak with dead always from the adventurer's or detective's standpoint. I very much could see exactly this sort of thing happening, as well as things like children asking their parent where some simple but necessary thing is kept (like where'd you bury all the gems that you didn't keep in a bank). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Sep 2022 14:09:36 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1298 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2022 : 08:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Ayrik, what happened to your awesome and informative post ?
--- --- ---
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Earth: Visiting a cemetery is a quiet and often somber affair.
The Realms: Visiting a cemetery may involve a battle with the residents.
The latter can depend on the timing and the locale. The City of the Dead, in Waterdeep, is something of a park, during daylight hours.
A fairly related thought ->
You know the spell Speak with Dead, yeah? Do you think it is possible at the more civilized/regimented cemeteries that family or a friend of the deceased can entreat a sensitive priest (typically a Kelemvorite, but I imagine a Lathanderite or other Good-aligned servant of a god would fit the bill) to question the dead as a way of putting their minds at ease?
This is why I like topics like this... they kind of veer off as one idea spawns another. I can honestly say, I've almost exclusively looked at speak with dead always from the adventurer's or detective's standpoint. I very much could see exactly this sort of thing happening, as well as things like children asking their parent where some simple but necessary thing is kept (like where'd you bury all the gems that you didn't keep in a bank).
In pretty much every D&D Dungeon Master/Master's Guide, there are rules for spellcaster services (specifically, the cost for spells that the Player Characters are likely to call upon on a regular basis); among these rules are divine spells. It makes sense that at least one Player Character will get the idea to visit a temple in order to have Speak with Dead cast on the remains of a deceased in the quest for answers. Anyhow, if a semi-respectable temple regularly receives folks who seek closure, then there would most certainly be areas walled or curtained off for privacy and even appropriate lighting/décor to make the experience as stress-free as possible. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Mundane on Earth/Serious in the Realms
