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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 18:47:43
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After reading web pages and digging through obscure source books all the way back to the 70s, I have some theories that could help direct me with my writing. I think what would benefit me most is to have people read my bullsnit ideas and stomp them into the ground with facts.
I can think of no better place than here.(or another thread if this is the wrong thread)
This is how my brain has put together the world of FR in childlike written mess quality and I'm sorry for that.
Starting back when there was only phlogiston and AO,
In his infinite boredom, AO was sprinkling existence here and there. He grabbed some imaginary space goo and started making the universe that contains the playable settings. In the spaces that were left behind, chaos formed as a by-product of the goo removal. (enter D&D and the BECMI set)
While AO was busy shaping things to his liking, a obyrith(Demon?) of great power tried to form her clique and married a wolfspider demon becoming the Queen of Chaos and her consort, a now Prince of Chaos named Miska, he was a spideyboi.
AOs still rockin the creation thing while the Chaos demons send things to one of AOs new planets Abeir-Toril. AO seen this and thought this could be something interesting so he made some gods to go play with the demons and shit went south fast.
The only thing I can find in canon that relates was AO making the sisters Selune and Shar. Unsourced info gathered suggests Lathander and Bhaal were the first created and are brothers. If that's to be taken as fact then the initial god list was Lathander, Bhaal, Selune and Shar with Papa AO at the head of the table and the rest of the gods for Toril came later. The goal was to maintain a balance and 4 gods to start seems like a nice elemental number. AO didn't want the chaos things gone(now known as Primordials/Demons/Obyrith?). He wanted a balance in all things and the demons were cheaty.
The Obyrith had destroyed their own universe of existence and had been trying to escape for awhile. When they found the barrier between existences weakened from AO making things. The Queen of Chaos sent her spideyboi to the Greyhawk world to open the doors wide and he got done over by the wind dukes with the help of what they termed the rod of law (Rod of seven parts). Dude was done like dinner and wrapped up in a cocoon of law, to go. Tossed in the trash of the plane of Pandemonium. This made the Chaos Queen kind of spicy so she launched yet another invasion and a war for control.
(pretty sure this is all Greyhawk stuff)
This happens fairly often considering all this in theory happened over centuries or millennia with the direct battles being the only thing measurable on a time scale I can comprehend. Oh, and the rod of law gets yote into seven pieces and scattered to the cardinal directions across planar and dimensional boundaries, cause they're all top tier gods and that's how they roll.
Time passes and AOs finally done with the bullshit and splits the contested planet in two, separated by the tablets of fate.(kicking off the Forgotten Realms setting)
Gives one planets to The Queen of Chaos and her group, gives Toril to his divine children (gods) for their mortals (at some point mortals show up). Gods forget their jobs, why the tablets were created and the abyssal wars they fought. BOOM, time of troubles and with that, we can backtrack and mudge together various timelines that fit into the realms. AO wants to teach the godlings a lesson, let's them flounder for awhile and releases the kraken on their asses.
So the worlds been split and reformed a few times. Old gods vanish or die, new gods get elevated, primordial's kinda keep hush and every 100 years or so, Miska, the demon prince that's locked in a burrito of law finds some fine print that allows him to do a nasty thing and shit happens in the playable worlds. (insert various adventures and second sundering).
Queen of Chaos is about due for a revamp and re-appearance but I'd like to take a peek at another Obyrith. Some parasite Obyrith that kept killing the Chaos Queens messengers when she tried to recruit it.
I would like to be fairly accurate with history as best as I can and I'd like to amalgamate as much as possible. I've thought of D&D as a single entity with every part being connected to, and part of other playable worlds. There may be extreme barriers between them (Athas is a neat example as are the Domains of Dread)) but they are all accessible by anyone if the proper means are available.(A Sigilian Portal perhaps)
...and that's the first bit of brain garbage I could use help smashing on your thought anvils. I've got so many things swirling in my melon and I can't nail anything down. If I'm ever going to write something that people will want to read I'll have to take English lessons and writing classes.
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"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 19:37:58
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The first thing: Ao just created the "reality" where the Forgotten Realms exists. Or as Spelljammer calls it, Realmspace. The other spaces were created by other beings. And this is only if you take the Netherese myths as facts. Because civilizations and cultures older than Netheril have their tales about the creation of the "Universe".
Dragons, for instance, believe that before creation existed Io (known as Asgorath in the Realms) who gave creation the potential to be created. Giants believe that it was Annam who dreamed the creation of all. And so on (I read those in Monster Mythology, a 2e book).
I don't know what sources are you reading, but Lathander is a really recent god (post-Netheril) and Bhaal was a mortal ascended to god in canon materials, so they cannot be "the first gods". However, I see that as the beliefs of some weird churches...
As for the original war against the chaos and the splitting of Abeir-Toril, those are two different events in canon. I have the whole narrative in my PC. I will post it as soon as I get home, if you are interested.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 20:06:36
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| I've a theory that Lathander is actually quite old, and predates Netheril -- but wasn't a deity until more recently. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 20:10:45
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I'd be careful of unsourced info, as there are a lot of homebrews and fan fics out in the wildspace of the internet. There are also a lot of contradictions between different editions because the developers change up things to make each edition effectively its own canon, though it's not impossible to bridge the lot of it if adding "non-canon" gap fillers.
Ao is a gardener for Realmspace, preserving the Cosmic Balance within the sphere as ordered by his master (revealed at the end of the Avatar novel series).
The purpose of the Tablets of Fate is to stabilize the status quo of divine portfolios and record who has them, making it harder to steal a portfolio by violence like Cyric did with Leira and Mask. This was clarified in a WotC panel for the [5e/Sundering?] marketing. When they were smashed by Ao, he was half-truthful about their importance imo.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 01 Mar 2022 20:14:35 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 20:46:43
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I was looking into this to create the history for the Shadowstar and thus the Shadevari. It is still in progress and is based on Eric's writings in Faiths and Avatars. It starts off with this:
"This was the birth of the world and heavens. After Lord AO created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. It was within this dim chaos that the beings who would come to be called the shadevari came to be, born from shadow and sired by an echo of AO’s act of creation. The shadevari fell upon each other as they encountered them, ripping and tearing until one was victorious. The winner would gain the loser’s power and intelligence while the bits of light and dark would drift about in the void."
I haven't completed it but basically, the bits of shadow and light coalesced into Selune and Shar. The light of Selune drove the 13 remaining Shadevari into the Ethereal. There, they meditated for a long period of time to figure out their place in Realmspace. During that time, the shadows that naturally flowed from them actually created the demi-plane of Shadow.
When they completed their meditation, they returned to Realmspace and offered to help Shar destroy her sister. They figured that would weaken Shar enough that they could then destroy Shar as well and return Realmspace back to what it was before Shar and Selune.
I still need to finish working on it. The Shadevari that is encountered in the Shadowking books are actually weak avatars (George's idea). The only true death of a Shadevari since the beginning was when Gond killed one to obtain its heart to create the Shadowstar (and he only barely won that fight).
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My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 23:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've a theory that Lathander is actually quite old, and predates Netheril -- but wasn't a deity until more recently.
If the angel turned Archduke of Avernus was always an angel of Lathander (Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus, 5e)before she turned, then that would place Lathander's existence as far back as the Dawn War period, since Zariel is referenced in an in-setting play (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, 5e) as having attended the Trial of Asmodeus.
Lathander can't have been a deity that far back, unless he didn't exist for a time and came back. But since he's described as a young deity, that's problematic.
You could also go the angle of the current Lathander being a new one and that there has been at least one previous Lathander. Mayhaps, like the goddess of magic, he's been doing the Dread Pirate Roberts routine for a while. In this case, New And Improved Lathander© is young, and the DC and this angel and all are associated with earlier models.
Though I still favor my original idea that Lathander was something like a Proxy and later got promoted. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 23:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
If the angel turned Archduke of Avernus was always an angel of Lathander (Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus, 5e)before she turned, then that would place Lathander's existence as far back as the Dawn War period, since Zariel is referenced in an in-setting play (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, 5e) as having attended the Trial of Asmodeus.
That module also said Zariel discharged her duties to Celestia. Lathander is not a power of Celestia. Zariel could have served another deity in Celestia before switching her allegiance to Lathander.
Considering Lathander's instigation of the Dawn Cataclysm, I could see such a realignment. Zariel is a bit of a loose cannon herself.
On a related topic, wasn't Lathander the reincarnation of Amaunator? |
Edited by - Delnyn on 01 Mar 2022 23:09:27 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 02:21:56
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Well......
AO is only the Overgod of Realmspace. Period. Maybe each sphere has an Overgod, but we only know of one other: The High God of Kyrnnspace.
Planescape has a HUGE dawn of time history....and it's DEEP. Starting with the LeShay from the previous multiverse. Draedens exist in the non-space. The Planes of the Multiverse form. The planes spawn life of five primal forces representing the five basic foundations of belief (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, and Neutrality). The "Queen of Chaos" is a bit more of a footnote from, er, a million years ago(before the Blood War even starts).
AO created Selune and Shar (Light and Dark), but they created Chauntea and Mystra. Lathender does not come around until modern times, after Netheril. Same with Bhaal...and the other Dark Three(Bane and Myurkyl).
The Time of Troubles and an Abyssal war? The ToT is fairly well documented....
Spelljammer puts Athasspace in the Flow, it just has a crystal sphere with no portals and it's srounded by the Grey. Ravenloft is one of many demiplanes...with limited access.
There is a ton of lore out there if you want to stick Cannon. |
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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 03:31:22
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My theory on Lathander is he is and always has been a god. Pre Netheril, cause of the dawn cataclysm type old.
I had read a bit of story, more than likely fan fiction (do not source this, it is possible fanfic)
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The story was about Lathander using the Dawnstone in a spell/ritual in an attempt to bring Tyche(his old flame) back from being split and Aumonitor pleading with him to stop.
Well, being the impulsive and lovelorn sad fool he was, he couldn't be stopped. He pulls off the magic, it fails spectacularly even by a gods standard and Aumonitor does the dive on the grenade thing and saves the day. Blowing himself to past tense in the process.
Lathander and Aumonitor do some gabbing, Aumonitor forgives Lathander and Lathander uses the Dawnstone to gobble up Aumonitor(or absorbed the god himself), promising them that he would make this right.
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Since then, there's been confusion on who's giving spells out but it's all Lathander. Aumonitors part of the Dawnstone (or part of Lathander) and Lathander has been doing double duty, fostering the confusion and taking the hits to faith but managing to keep both faiths alive.
Is it possible that when AO(or the boss) was creating everything, Lathander could have been there as the Commander of Creativity and helped shape everything we know?
also, did Lathander spend a year on a space whales back watching the birth of a crystal sphere with Tyche? |
"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
Edited by - EricMinde on 02 Mar 2022 04:39:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 05:12:46
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Lathander can't have been a god for that long, because he wasn't around as a deity in the time of Netheril and he's described as being a young deity. The earliest reference to Lathander in Realmslore is 400 years after the fall of Netheril.
The thing you mentioned with reassembling Tyche is partially the plot of the novel Tymora's Luck... Though it was 1370s when that novel happened, and Amaunator wasn't a part of it. Neither was the Dawnstone.
Also, I think you're putting the wrong emphasis on "Commander of Creativity" -- that's creativity, as in, inspiration to create things. Lathander is big into art. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Mar 2022 05:13:46 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 09:47:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've a theory that Lathander is actually quite old, and predates Netheril -- but wasn't a deity until more recently.
If the angel turned Archduke of Avernus was always an angel of Lathander (Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus, 5e)before she turned, then that would place Lathander's existence as far back as the Dawn War period, since Zariel is referenced in an in-setting play (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, 5e) as having attended the Trial of Asmodeus.
Lathander can't have been a deity that far back, unless he didn't exist for a time and came back. But since he's described as a young deity, that's problematic.
You could also go the angle of the current Lathander being a new one and that there has been at least one previous Lathander. Mayhaps, like the goddess of magic, he's been doing the Dread Pirate Roberts routine for a while. In this case, New And Improved Lathander© is young, and the DC and this angel and all are associated with earlier models.
Though I still favor my original idea that Lathander was something like a Proxy and later got promoted.
Shall I unearth the forgotten old scroll in which designers talked about a tripartite sun heresy that ties Anaumator into sky gods of other pantheons, with power passing from dawn , day, and dusk domains. In joining Anamuator and Lathander in modern times, this strange being would be set up to possess two domains- though domains don't seem to matter to a God since the second sundering. But yeah. These two jerks have fascinated people for over a decade here, with many a mad heresy dating into the far past.
Lathander also once did that.. whole.. pantheon war thing... |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 02 Mar 2022 09:49:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 11:01:36
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| I've never liked the tripartite solar deity idea, and find it really problematic -- especially the part about having multiple aspects active at the exact same time and for prolonged periods. |
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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2022 : 15:10:43
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As a note; This is where I pulled the Aumonitor being oof'd by Lathander from. There is non-cannon gap-fillers added but as to what those fillers are vs what is actually cannon, others would know much more.
AMAUNATOR / LATHANDER, Lords of Light #10023; Forgotten Realms 5e
This is a lore pamphlet for players that play clerics, paladins, or worshippers of Amaunator and Lathander in the Forgotten Realms. Updated to post-Sundering status quo.
A compilation of lore based on established canon lore published across all editions of Dungeons & Dragons, combined with non-canon gap fillers. |
"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2022 : 02:03:04
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| You can also say that either the Dawn Cataclysm was started when the god still called himself Amaunator, but current historians atribute it to Lathander, or that the Dawn Cataclysm works like the Dragon Breaks from Elder Scrolls, and so its placement in the timeline doesn't matter. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2022 : 03:53:25
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May just have been my musings...or something I heard from someone else...
Lathander may have been an Avatar of ol' Amaunator "way back when" that was somehow influenced to struggle to be free and its own power...
That isn't how I run it in my own Realms (never was an Amaunator). In my Realms Lathander is just another name for Appolo that became "Realmsian" over time. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2022 : 04:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by EricMinde
As a note; This is where I pulled the Aumonitor being oof'd by Lathander from. There is non-cannon gap-fillers added but as to what those fillers are vs what is actually cannon, others would know much more.
AMAUNATOR / LATHANDER, Lords of Light #10023; Forgotten Realms 5e
This is a lore pamphlet for players that play clerics, paladins, or worshippers of Amaunator and Lathander in the Forgotten Realms. Updated to post-Sundering status quo.
A compilation of lore based on established canon lore published across all editions of Dungeons & Dragons, combined with non-canon gap fillers.
I wrote that pamphlet. The story in the pamphlet about Lathander absorbing Amaunator is a non-canon gap filler to help bridge the edition changes, with 4e swapping Lathander for Amaunator (because Amaunator is inside his body and fighting Cyric in Limbo took its toll on the body), and 5e re-separating them into separate deities (maybe Ao felt that it was detrimental to Cosmic Balance to have them in the same body after mulling over their persona swap in 4e). It also gave me an opportunity to give a cool origin to the Dawnstone, which imo should have center stage in anyone's Myth Drannor 5e campaign.
Fun times.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2022 : 05:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
It also gave me an opportunity to give a cool origin to the Dawnstone, which imo should have center stage in anyone's Myth Drannor 5e campaign.
Fun times.
Assuming it's still there. It was in a temple that was well outside of Myth Drannor, in 2E, but when they fey'ri took over the city in 3E*, they destroyed a temple of Lathander that was inside the city. Whether or not this was the same temple or a second one was, like many problematic bits of lore in 3E**, never addressed.
If I had to spin it myself, I'd say the destroyed temple was a new outpost of the temple outside the city, set up to facilitate exploring the ruins, and that the Dawnstone and the bulk of the local clergy remained at the original temple and were unaffected by what happened in the city.
*(somehow wiping out threats that had lingered there for centuries, without any real losses  )
**(many of which came from that same author) |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2022 : 09:29:24
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I imagined up a story that only partially made it into the campaign over a few sessions. Since the young Chosen of Lathander didn't have any lore I could find post mission-impossible atop the Star Mounts, I said that that was when he announced the info personally to a crowd in Waterdeep how the two faiths should "stop literally trying to kill eachother and know that daddy loves both of you so please stop fighting for crying out loud"
With how psychotic the firey lords of Anaumator's faith have been (see epic spellcasting and creating wild artifacts like a bunch of straight up arcanists) I just imagine them crafting a huge gaudy golden bell with a bastardized fusion of the two holy symbols (like that one time in Egypt with that Pharaoh..) as a gift for some large Lathander temple. Modest tempered Lathanderites grunting in fraying patience as a literal flaming heretic jumps them from around a corner with a bear-hug and says "BROTHER IT IS LOVELY TO SEE YOU AGAIN! :D" |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 03 Mar 2022 09:30:33 |
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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2022 : 17:28:23
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quote:
It also gave me an opportunity to give a cool origin to the Dawnstone, which imo should have center stage in anyone's Myth Drannor 5e campaign.
Fun times.
It did in ours (2E) and I have it. 11 foot tall, winged gold elf chosen SP. Later on assembled the Rod of Law (renamed Staff of the Healer/Shaft of Light). It was an interesting run across a lot of planes and settings. Everyone had been through the wringer several times and not one of us ended the campaign unscathed.
I started out as a normal gold elf cleric of Lathander, ended up a giant winged freak specialty priest chosen with a competition body builders physique that has to learn to love herself again in near total isolation with a baby dragon for 100+ years.
I'd like to write about her adventures ala Rise of the Spider Goddess style, only using the annotated version of the book to help me avoid some mistakes. (great book on how not to write your first book and the dude suggests writing it anyway because it's fun) |
"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
Edited by - EricMinde on 03 Mar 2022 17:38:44 |
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Realms Theorycrafting...ish
