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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 00:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The only problem I have with this is the same one I have with 5e as a whole: this is Dungeons & Dragons, not Dungeons & Elves, 
True... But D&D is long past being focused on just dungeons and just dragons -- and elves were there from the beginning, too.
If I was trying to do something with Maztica, I'd go for something between coatl and the lung dragons of Kara-Tur. I'd maybe look at Shadowrun's feathered serpents for inspiration. Something draconic, but instead of being the majestic hexapods of Faerûn, smaller and more sinuous like the dragons of Asian folklore, maybe like a really big snake with wings (and no other limbs) and a different head. Basically, upsizing the standard coatl, maybe giving it another set of wings.
These kind of dragons might have rays or something else they use, instead of breathe weapons, too.
And even if I kept the near-immortality, I'd have them do something other than hanging out on piles of gold and sniping at other dragons that enter their territory.
Imagine, for example, if a particular dragon was a thirty-foot snake with feathers and wings, and lived in an area with its extended family, and their focus was on keeping that area vibrant and bountiful.
Doing something like that, you'd still have dragons, but they'd fit in better and be something rather unlike PC expectations.
Interestingly, what you just described is kind of what I went with for my amber dragons (which admittedly also fits with the original lore). I added them having an influence on nature around them (things such as plants and animals grow bigger). They don't lair in one spot, but roam a wide territory. They look like striped regular dragons though as I kept to mostly what they looked like in MC Annual volume 3, with a big horn on their noses. Seethyr also used the feathered mirage dragon up in Anchorome, but they aren't as feathered as I would like.
If I were better at making things in 3d I'd make something like you described and make it for Lopango area, but since I can't draw... and whenever I try to do things with feathers they come out less than successful or taking forever. Never thought I'd be saying this so late in life, especially since I never was into making art, but I wish I had time away from work to take some basic computer art classes. I'd probably learn a lot of things that just don't jump at me teaching myself.
On the subject of additional elves, I honestly would like to see some more dwarves, but having developed in Abeir, so that their cultures would be different (and since we know Abeir had dwarves and humans). Some portions of these places could have refugees, transplants, colonizers, etc... from those types of cultures.
For that matter, everything we see people doing is dragonborn and genasi from Abeir, but I see no reason that there wouldn't also be sarrukh and batrachi cultures there too that might be coming back with the returning regions. I hadn't really developed that much, but it might be some good additions to add to a returning Katashaka. Having the inhabitants of Katashaka in conflict with a group of colonizing sarrukh and batrachi, as well as some faerunian, anchorome, and Kara-turan influences that might have just arrived prior to the spellplague could make that place an interesting melting pot over a century.
For that matter, how did dwarves end up in Abeir? I get that elves weren't there because they weren't on Toril yet, but neither were dwarves in theory. So, Abeir was not an isolated world. It had some inputs from elsewhere somehow.... maybe even Faerun periodically. Heck, for all we know, the collapse of the great rift and the landrise was because a section of it went to Abeir (not what I was originally going for, but... options). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Jan 2022 00:26:16 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 00:41:13
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
According to the FRWiki (and it says this is from GHotR), we have these occurances:
"Around -30,700 DR, a number of lammasu defeated a much larger force of Aearee-Krocaa, killing one thousand. The aearee later experimented on domesticated landwyrms to create winged wyrms, or wyverns. Supported by wyvern forces, the Aearee-Krocaa empire commenced a rapid expansion.
Around -30,400 DR, the gnolls of Urgnarash battled the aearee of Kookrui-Shara. Gnoll shamans, following Yeenoghu, summoned marrashi to spread disease among the aearee. Aearee crops were blighted, and the aearee suffered the Wasting Plague. The Aearee-Quor were decimated, and many of them began worshiping the demon lord Pazrael to seek salvation."
Now, if dragons first appeared around -31,000, whose to say that the Aearee didn't experiment with dragons just like they did with "landwyrms" and that created the dracoatls? They were moved to Maztica to protect them from the later Wasting Plague and they survived on after the Aearee became extinct. That would make Wooly's dracoatls a logical extension of existing canon.
Except we also have that Abeir has dragons that were the servant mounts of the primordials, and the dragons there ALSO have wings... and Abeir has all the same kinds of metallics and chromatics as Toril (probably gem dragons too).
My personal theory with the Aearee is that we should tie them to Coliar, which is a world in which dragons are "wise rulers" over the existing "bird folk" and "lizard folk" that are there. Dragon are revered.... almost like worshipped... there. The dragons there even eventually transcend their mortal bodies to "travel in space as air dragons". So, perhaps some bird folk with draconic leaders arrived, and those became the aearee.
Now that doesn't preclude there being feathered/snaky dragons created by the aearee, and that may be good thing to add to both Maztica AND Coliar. Just saying we can't say "dragons didn't appear until X date". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 02:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
According to the FRWiki (and it says this is from GHotR), we have these occurances:
"Around -30,700 DR, a number of lammasu defeated a much larger force of Aearee-Krocaa, killing one thousand. The aearee later experimented on domesticated landwyrms to create winged wyrms, or wyverns. Supported by wyvern forces, the Aearee-Krocaa empire commenced a rapid expansion.
Around -30,400 DR, the gnolls of Urgnarash battled the aearee of Kookrui-Shara. Gnoll shamans, following Yeenoghu, summoned marrashi to spread disease among the aearee. Aearee crops were blighted, and the aearee suffered the Wasting Plague. The Aearee-Quor were decimated, and many of them began worshiping the demon lord Pazrael to seek salvation."
Now, if dragons first appeared around -31,000, whose to say that the Aearee didn't experiment with dragons just like they did with "landwyrms" and that created the dracoatls? They were moved to Maztica to protect them from the later Wasting Plague and they survived on after the Aearee became extinct. That would make Wooly's dracoatls a logical extension of existing canon.
Except we also have that Abeir has dragons that were the servant mounts of the primordials, and the dragons there ALSO have wings... and Abeir has all the same kinds of metallics and chromatics as Toril (probably gem dragons too).
My personal theory with the Aearee is that we should tie them to Coliar, which is a world in which dragons are "wise rulers" over the existing "bird folk" and "lizard folk" that are there. Dragon are revered.... almost like worshipped... there. The dragons there even eventually transcend their mortal bodies to "travel in space as air dragons". So, perhaps some bird folk with draconic leaders arrived, and those became the aearee.
Now that doesn't preclude there being feathered/snaky dragons created by the aearee, and that may be good thing to add to both Maztica AND Coliar. Just saying we can't say "dragons didn't appear until X date".
Of course Abeir has dragons. It was Abeir-Toril still in -31,000 (GHotR pg 8). That could still be the time that dragons were introduced to both worlds since they were still joined at that point. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 02:09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
According to the FRWiki (and it says this is from GHotR), we have these occurances:
"Around -30,700 DR, a number of lammasu defeated a much larger force of Aearee-Krocaa, killing one thousand. The aearee later experimented on domesticated landwyrms to create winged wyrms, or wyverns. Supported by wyvern forces, the Aearee-Krocaa empire commenced a rapid expansion.
Around -30,400 DR, the gnolls of Urgnarash battled the aearee of Kookrui-Shara. Gnoll shamans, following Yeenoghu, summoned marrashi to spread disease among the aearee. Aearee crops were blighted, and the aearee suffered the Wasting Plague. The Aearee-Quor were decimated, and many of them began worshiping the demon lord Pazrael to seek salvation."
Now, if dragons first appeared around -31,000, whose to say that the Aearee didn't experiment with dragons just like they did with "landwyrms" and that created the dracoatls? They were moved to Maztica to protect them from the later Wasting Plague and they survived on after the Aearee became extinct. That would make Wooly's dracoatls a logical extension of existing canon.
Except we also have that Abeir has dragons that were the servant mounts of the primordials, and the dragons there ALSO have wings... and Abeir has all the same kinds of metallics and chromatics as Toril (probably gem dragons too).
My personal theory with the Aearee is that we should tie them to Coliar, which is a world in which dragons are "wise rulers" over the existing "bird folk" and "lizard folk" that are there. Dragon are revered.... almost like worshipped... there. The dragons there even eventually transcend their mortal bodies to "travel in space as air dragons". So, perhaps some bird folk with draconic leaders arrived, and those became the aearee.
Now that doesn't preclude there being feathered/snaky dragons created by the aearee, and that may be good thing to add to both Maztica AND Coliar. Just saying we can't say "dragons didn't appear until X date".
Of course Abeir has dragons. It was Abeir-Toril still in -31,000 (GHotR pg 8). That could still be the time that dragons were introduced to both worlds since they were still joined at that point.
Not if dragons had been the primordial's/dawn titans mounts in the war against the gods/estelar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 04:00:18
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| Well, Fizban's has the Elegy for the First World to explain why dragons in all worlds are of the same kinds. And Draconomicon (2e) has other theories of why this happened, so Fizban's Elegy is not that farfetched. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 05:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Except we also have that Abeir has dragons that were the servant mounts of the primordials, and the dragons there ALSO have wings... and Abeir has all the same kinds of metallics and chromatics as Toril (probably gem dragons too).
My personal theory with the Aearee is that we should tie them to Coliar, which is a world in which dragons are "wise rulers" over the existing "bird folk" and "lizard folk" that are there. Dragon are revered.... almost like worshipped... there. The dragons there even eventually transcend their mortal bodies to "travel in space as air dragons". So, perhaps some bird folk with draconic leaders arrived, and those became the aearee.
Now that doesn't preclude there being feathered/snaky dragons created by the aearee, and that may be good thing to add to both Maztica AND Coliar. Just saying we can't say "dragons didn't appear until X date".
Of course Abeir has dragons. It was Abeir-Toril still in -31,000 (GHotR pg 8). That could still be the time that dragons were introduced to both worlds since they were still joined at that point.
Not if dragons had been the primordial's/dawn titans mounts in the war against the gods/estelar.
Yes, even then because several things happened around the same time:
1. The batrachi were fighting the titans and loosing.
2. The batrachi freed the primordials from their prison to fight the titans.
3. The gods moved against the primordials.
4. Ao split Abeir and Toril to keep the world from being destroyed.
Now, there could be a couple different ways that dragons can fit into that. The first is that dragon eggs fell and the primordials/titans, recognizing their power, simply used their magic to age the dragons into adult form and rode them as suitable mounts.
Second, is that Asgorath made the eggs fall for the purpose of using them as troops in the war. Unfortunately for them, the gods moved too quickly and the primordials only had time to age up a few as mounts. The rest remained as eggs and hatchlings and some were carried over into each world during the split.
There is a third possibility but it is a bit out there: The elves' Sundering did it. It is said that The Sundering "extends both back and forward in the mists of time." (page 10 GHotR). It could have thrown a few dragons (and other beings) from -17600 back to -31000. That would allow a few adult dragons to be there to be ridden as mounts as well as a few other dragons who knew some world history and they decide to take over the world to try and keep the elves from dethroning dragons in the centuries to come. That is not successful as the elves are still able to end the dragon rule over the world (maybe a few elves were thrown back, too).
So, there being dragon mounts for the primordials is not necessarily as cut and dried as a reason why dragons could not have be introduced at that time to both worlds. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2022 : 14:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Except we also have that Abeir has dragons that were the servant mounts of the primordials, and the dragons there ALSO have wings... and Abeir has all the same kinds of metallics and chromatics as Toril (probably gem dragons too).
My personal theory with the Aearee is that we should tie them to Coliar, which is a world in which dragons are "wise rulers" over the existing "bird folk" and "lizard folk" that are there. Dragon are revered.... almost like worshipped... there. The dragons there even eventually transcend their mortal bodies to "travel in space as air dragons". So, perhaps some bird folk with draconic leaders arrived, and those became the aearee.
Now that doesn't preclude there being feathered/snaky dragons created by the aearee, and that may be good thing to add to both Maztica AND Coliar. Just saying we can't say "dragons didn't appear until X date".
Of course Abeir has dragons. It was Abeir-Toril still in -31,000 (GHotR pg 8). That could still be the time that dragons were introduced to both worlds since they were still joined at that point.
Not if dragons had been the primordial's/dawn titans mounts in the war against the gods/estelar.
Yes, even then because several things happened around the same time:
1. The batrachi were fighting the titans and loosing.
2. The batrachi freed the primordials from their prison to fight the titans.
3. The gods moved against the primordials.
4. Ao split Abeir and Toril to keep the world from being destroyed.
Now, there could be a couple different ways that dragons can fit into that. The first is that dragon eggs fell and the primordials/titans, recognizing their power, simply used their magic to age the dragons into adult form and rode them as suitable mounts.
Second, is that Asgorath made the eggs fall for the purpose of using them as troops in the war. Unfortunately for them, the gods moved too quickly and the primordials only had time to age up a few as mounts. The rest remained as eggs and hatchlings and some were carried over into each world during the split.
There is a third possibility but it is a bit out there: The elves' Sundering did it. It is said that The Sundering "extends both back and forward in the mists of time." (page 10 GHotR). It could have thrown a few dragons (and other beings) from -17600 back to -31000. That would allow a few adult dragons to be there to be ridden as mounts as well as a few other dragons who knew some world history and they decide to take over the world to try and keep the elves from dethroning dragons in the centuries to come. That is not successful as the elves are still able to end the dragon rule over the world (maybe a few elves were thrown back, too).
So, there being dragon mounts for the primordials is not necessarily as cut and dried as a reason why dragons could not have be introduced at that time to both worlds.
Hmmm, that elven sundering idea.... that could be worth playing with.
We have the the batrachi released "several primordials"
What if the batrachi ritual AND the elven sundering AND the site of the "dragon laser that shot the moon" were all done at the same place. The Hill of Seven Lost Gods... Maybe Sardior and his Thanes were the seven .... or seven other dragons including Asgoroth
What if the elven sundering wasn't what we've been told. What if they were trying to stop the dragons from blasting the king killer star? They hit the moon, things went wonky with time, and the dragons were sent back in time. So, the "seven lost gods"/dragons were sent back in time as they were "blasting the moon". The result being that one of them is seen as hurling a "comet" or "ice moon" at the world. SOMEONE twins the world, whether it be because the batrachi high magic and the elven high magic somehow become intertwined, or Ao does it, or osmething else entirely.
If that's the case, the elven sundering may be less of a fubar on their part. It may have been caused by the breaking of the moon, changing its gravitational pull on the world, having a bunch of debris hitting the continent, causing tectonic shifts, etc... Maybe the elves shunted a lot of that damage onto Abeir as well.
I don't think I'd ever thought to actually link these two castings directly (as in same place, same individuals being on both sides, etc..), but it does have merit. Worth thinking about. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2022 : 13:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
https://web.archive.org/web/20170202194820/http://www.lomion.de/cmm/dragmazt.php
Yep, I think that was the inspiration for Seethyr's article on the two headed dragon "Acalanahuatzi, the Wyrm at War" which takes one of the tlacoatl (rain dragon) and puts not just one but at least two interesting twists to it. The first is a kind of classic for a two headed being.... the second..... well, let's just say he took things a bit far.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/232731/MZM2-Acalanahuatzi-The-Wyrm-at-War?term=twm7
For those that are interested in glancing, it's Pay what you Want. It's 7 pages long and one of his earlier works. Technically its in Lopango and not Maztica (yet another reason why I say I like his Lopango more than his Maztica). I get absolutely nothing from this other than the joy of having other people see what Seethyr's done and maybe find others willing to try and develop in the regions he has gone into. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 22:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?
Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?
Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?
Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?
Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.
In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 23:46:51
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?
Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?
Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?
Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?
Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.
In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.
Politics in general move to the left over time: more civil rights, less overall ignorance, greater acceptance of science, et cetera. There are momentary reactionary outcries (bumps in the road), no doubt, but that's all they are: momentary.
As for Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim/Maztica, however, those fictional lands are fine as long as people can separate fiction from reality. Quality of writing, well...that's another matter altogether. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 00:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?
Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?
Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?
Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?
Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.
In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.
Politics in general move to the left over time: more civil rights, less overall ignorance, greater acceptance of science, et cetera. There are momentary reactionary outcries (bumps in the road), no doubt, but that's all they are: momentary.
As for Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim/Maztica, however, those fictional lands are fine as long as people can separate fiction from reality. Quality of writing, well...that's another matter altogether.
This is basically the premise of Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" which theorises that humanity has been advancing towards liberalism and that it is the final endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution. Even Fukuyama now understands that he was very wrong in his assumptions.
In reality, social liberalism is the product of abundance and prosperity. The assumption that we will always be moving further left, socially, relies on the notion that our current civilisation will continue to prosper perpetually and will never decline, which is certainly not the reality considering that global power is now moving Eastward along with all of the cataclysms that we are projected to experience this century (climate change, ocean acidification, sea level rise, to name a few) which will strain even the richest nations. The West's decline is virtually set in stone.
A civilisation that doesn't have abundant resources or a way to effectively distribute them, even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union, will become socially conservative despite the intentions of its ruling class, because hardship creates the conditions that necessitate rightward thinking as a matter of survival. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 00:24:34
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quote:
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I mean they're problematic because they're using RL cultures as direct copy and pastes with a lot of stereotyping and mishandling of the accurate versions. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 00:38:19
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?
Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?
Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?
Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?
Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.
In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.
Politics in general move to the left over time: more civil rights, less overall ignorance, greater acceptance of science, et cetera. There are momentary reactionary outcries (bumps in the road), no doubt, but that's all they are: momentary.
As for Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim/Maztica, however, those fictional lands are fine as long as people can separate fiction from reality. Quality of writing, well...that's another matter altogether.
This is basically the premise of Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" which theorises that humanity has been advancing towards liberalism and that it is the final endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution. Even Fukuyama now understands that he was very wrong in his assumptions.
In reality, social liberalism is the product of abundance and prosperity. The assumption that we will always be moving further left, socially, relies on the notion that our current civilisation will continue to prosper perpetually and will never decline, which is certainly not the reality considering that global power is now moving Eastward along with all of the cataclysms that we are projected to experience this century (climate change, ocean acidification, sea level rise, to name a few) which will strain even the richest nations. The West's decline is virtually set in stone.
A civilisation that doesn't have abundant resources or a way to effectively distribute them, even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union, will become socially conservative despite the intentions of its ruling class, because hardship creates the conditions that necessitate rightward thinking as a matter of survival.
quote:
even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union
That's an assumption: society only (uniformly?) improves or declines because of one specific reason. As an example, gay rights in Russia are appalling, despite the continually elevated standard of living (unless you're going to argue that their situation now is worse than it was half a century ago). There are some societal advancements not reliant upon extra wheat or water. Also, you seem to conflate economically left-leaning with socially left-leaning; it is possible to champion one at the expense of the other, though it admittedly becomes difficult once the extremes are reached.
Anyhow, I apologize for feeding the beast, Wooly. I should know better by this point. Adios. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 01:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
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Originally posted by mastermustard
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Originally posted by gregc
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?
Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?
Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?
Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?
Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I have problems with Maztica as well but not social-justicy ones. I just found that piece of realmslore to be poorly written and uninspired.
In any case, retconning is the worst thing you can do if you value a "shared world experience". It creates chaos and makes the world feel less tangible.
Politics in general move to the left over time: more civil rights, less overall ignorance, greater acceptance of science, et cetera. There are momentary reactionary outcries (bumps in the road), no doubt, but that's all they are: momentary.
As for Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim/Maztica, however, those fictional lands are fine as long as people can separate fiction from reality. Quality of writing, well...that's another matter altogether.
This is basically the premise of Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" which theorises that humanity has been advancing towards liberalism and that it is the final endpoint of humanity's sociocultural evolution. Even Fukuyama now understands that he was very wrong in his assumptions.
In reality, social liberalism is the product of abundance and prosperity. The assumption that we will always be moving further left, socially, relies on the notion that our current civilisation will continue to prosper perpetually and will never decline, which is certainly not the reality considering that global power is now moving Eastward along with all of the cataclysms that we are projected to experience this century (climate change, ocean acidification, sea level rise, to name a few) which will strain even the richest nations. The West's decline is virtually set in stone.
A civilisation that doesn't have abundant resources or a way to effectively distribute them, even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union, will become socially conservative despite the intentions of its ruling class, because hardship creates the conditions that necessitate rightward thinking as a matter of survival.
quote:
even if its supposedly left-leaning, such as the former Soviet Union
That's an assumption: society only (uniformly?) improves or declines because of one specific reason. As an example, gay rights in Russia are appalling, despite the continually elevated standard of living (unless you're going to argue that their situation now is worse than it was half a century ago). There are some societal advancements not reliant upon extra wheat or water. Also, you seem to conflate economically left-leaning with socially left-leaning; it is possible to champion one at the expense of the other, though it admittedly becomes difficult once the extremes are reached.
Anyhow, I apologize for feeding the beast, Wooly. I should know better by this point. Adios.
Humans are the primary drivers of societal advancement, and humans require food and resources. In the absence of wheat and water, social advancements suddenly aren't so important. Sharing and being nice isn't an effective evolutionary survival strategy -- it only works when you have a surplus.
Russia's homophobia is a relic of attitudes from the Soviet Union, which initially was intended by its architects to be a utopia that accepted anyone regardless of their condition or persuasion. By the end it had been subverted and was leftwing only economically, because people that are suffering and living in poverty cling to tradition and religion rather than fancy ideas about social justice.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
If these regions are "problematic" because real-world Western politics have shifted far to the left of when the setting was imagined, then they only need wait for politics to shift in the other direction before discussion of these areas is acceptable once more. Give it another decade or two.
I mean they're problematic because they're using RL cultures as direct copy and pastes with a lot of stereotyping and mishandling of the accurate versions.
I do think things like attempting to shoehorn in real life events such as mongol/hun invasions and using Helm as a stand-in for the Christian god and a pseudo-Spanish conquest of the Americas in is in poor taste. Or rather, just uninspired, hack writing.
However, using RL cultures is simply unavoidable, even if they end up bastardized. This is a shared world with a lot of fluff, and culture is rather intricate to the point that it would be difficult to create new cultures from scratch, even if it would be nice if writers were willing to do so. Most Faerunian cultures are rather generically European and there are plenty of inaccuracies there as well, but it's okay since they're fictional and writers are expected to take liberties in a fantasy setting.
Since culture is the framework with which people interact with the world and which the reader uses to interact with, and empathise with the characters, not including them at all would make the stories incredibly dry.
Just my opinion.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 02:14:22
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Right and left depend tremendously on where you're standing.
I'm a committed anarchist and oppose all authoritarian dictatorships, Right or Left.
I also realize that anarchy without some system to oppose power results in the creation of dictatorships as no restrictions create a power vacuum. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 02:52:44
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| The original topic was, "Can we salvage Toril?" I'm now wondering if we can leave off with the real-world politics and salvage this discussion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 14:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The original topic was, "Can we salvage Toril?" I'm now wondering if we can leave off with the real-world politics and salvage this discussion.
You are absolutely correct and I will remove all RL politics from my responses and talk instead about the issue from a purely artistic and creative perspective.
1. Are the RL locations fun for a Dungeon Master and gamers as is?
2. Could they be better?
3. Are they better than they might be if they were more "fantacized" or rewritten to be more from the perspective of their cultures than exotic lands? Either.
Which I think is fodder for a lot of discussion I think. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 14:50:07
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To make a game effort:
I think the RL cultures in the Realms have always been an awkward fit and have kind of disrupted the realism of the place, ironically, because you can tell what Ed Greenwood worked on and was willing to work to make into something that integrated to the larger realms and what is just sort of its own thing that technically takes place on the same world.
It doesn't help that there's already some non-white, non-European sorts of places in the Realms that correspond to RL cultures but aren't 1:1 stand ins: Calisham, Chult, and Mulhorand are not perfect representations but they are far better integrated into the Forgotten Realms than the places that just sort of exist.
Or, to put it a different way, Terry Pratchett's overtly fantasy parodies are usually given less flack than trying to make them "accurate" versions of the RL world. You're going to have less problem with Barovia than you are trying to an adaptation of Romania in the Middle Ages with its complicated paganism, Roman ethnic groups, Romani, and so on.
(Though the Vistani could have been handled better)
As mentioned elsewhere, Mulhorand isn't even a stand-in. It's Stargate SG-1 from decades earlier. A bunch of ancient Egyptians were moved by Ra and company through a portal (actually, that really is just Stargate--Ed should ask for some money) and they built their own culture there. They're integrated to the setting because the Red Wizards of Thay are all descended from them. It's also a kind of neat homage to Robert E. Howard because the cutlure most like Stygia with its evil Bane/Set worshiping wizards is literally descended from Ancient Egyptians. It's just the Ancient Egyptians think they're a bunch of scumbags and look down on them as evil doers.
I think the ultimate example of this is probably an odd question that occurred to me while incorporating coffee, bannanas, and a bunch of other "modern" foods in my Realm notes. I wrote down, "These come from Maztica" as a joke and then it got me thinking, "How are the Realms interacting with all these nations? What are the trade routes from Kara-Tur like? Is there a Silk Road? It's been a hundred years, surely things have either stabilized or finished. What does the relationship between Faerun and these lands on a trade and cultural level look like?"
Maztica is a place that as a stand-in for South American cultures is fine but if history DOESN'T go like RL where plague and conquest decimated them, then what now? The Church of Helm doesn't have the oomph or commitment to genocide to be conquistidors. So presumably its not going to make that big of an inraod. What about Faerun traders who are significantly less assholish than the theocratic fascism of the Spanish Empire? People who want to just trade and explore? These are questions RL history can't provide answers for.
The more its "realistic" by the REALMS, the less realistic by RL it will be.
I'm reminded of GREEDFALL which was an attempt to do a awesome Bioware-esque storyline that used the exploration of the New World as an option. The problem being that RL history and colonialism was so disgusting that even if you wanted to fight against the evil Inquisitors, merchants, and so on--you still felt kind of awful.
https://kotaku.com/greedfalls-detailed-role-playing-cant-make-up-for-its-u-1837994750
Maybe it would have been better to have the Church of Bane and Zhentarim set up in Maztiza to do all the nastiness but eventually the setting would have to deal with, "What if Europeans showed up who weren't jerkasses?" And then you must write the storyline of how the setting might be. Xen'Drick from the Dungeons and Dragons Online game went with a big European City that is there and not invading. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 24 Apr 2022 14:55:56 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 18:20:24
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The short but sloppy answer to the OP question is "Yes".
The more nuanced reply is: "Do not expect WoTC to do it for us or give freelance work its legal blessing." |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 19:08:19
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| The missing novel line really hurts a ton too. I have to admit I don’t feel as immersed in FR as I used to and I feel like it has a LOT to do with the fact that it feels static without the novels. I’m glad time isn’t progressing at jumps of 100 years with a RSE every other month but I need something to read. A lot of people aren’t happy with the new Drizzt novel but I was certainly excited to get SOME content and for that matter in a whole new land previously untouched. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 20:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
To make a game effort:
I think the RL cultures in the Realms have always been an awkward fit and have kind of disrupted the realism of the place, ironically, because you can tell what Ed Greenwood worked on and was willing to work to make into something that integrated to the larger realms and what is just sort of its own thing that technically takes place on the same world.
It doesn't help that there's already some non-white, non-European sorts of places in the Realms that correspond to RL cultures but aren't 1:1 stand ins: Calisham, Chult, and Mulhorand are not perfect representations but they are far better integrated into the Forgotten Realms than the places that just sort of exist.
Or, to put it a different way, Terry Pratchett's overtly fantasy parodies are usually given less flack than trying to make them "accurate" versions of the RL world. You're going to have less problem with Barovia than you are trying to an adaptation of Romania in the Middle Ages with its complicated paganism, Roman ethnic groups, Romani, and so on.
(Though the Vistani could have been handled better)
-At the end of the day, all fantasy cultures are going to have some kernel of real world truth to them, because that's just simply what we know. It's being able to take that kernel and turn it into something new/different/interesting and not some hackneyed blatant rip-off is where the skill and creativity and whatever else comes into play. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Kilamandaros
Acolyte
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 10:59:48
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Hi all, hope you don't mind a newbie wading into the discussion with a lengthy post, but this topic actually inspired me to stop lurking and create an account. It's a topic I feel quite passionate about, as the Forgotten Realms have been such a huge part of my life. I belong to a lot of other Realms/D&D groups and communities and have seen this discussion elsewhere so feel compelled to join in.
I actually disagree that it's the left-leaning cancel-culture of the new world that's causing WotC to move away from FR in 5th edition. You need only look at their flagship product which has a much bigger audience and capital reach than D&D - Magic the Gathering - to see they have no qualms exploring locations & worlds with ties to Real World history. Amonkhet, Kamigawa, Ixalan to name just a few sets in recent years that have done this. Yes, the way they approach these settings is a lot more sensitive than it was 30 years ago but I don't believe for a second they would hesitate in D&D.
Unfortunately, the reason I believe we won't be seeing much more FR in 5th edition is actually more down to the very vocal fans (not FR fans) who communicate directly with WotC via Facebook, Twitter and the like who constantly bombard them with requests for their favourite setting to get some focus and complaining they are bored with Forgotten Realms adventures. Yes, Critical Role is part of this but from my experience those clamouring for Eberron, Dragonlance & Spelljammer have been much more vocal and lo and behold there is now lots of focus going in that direction. Next the cry will go up for Darksun almost certainly.
Whilst I, like you all, want nothing more than to see more official books in other locations in FR – not even wider Toril, just away from the Sword Coast would be nice. The Innersea, Dalelands, Anauroch etc. would be fantastic to get some love and attention. In terms of wider Toril I think Maztica is unlikely – Chult already fills the Aztec/South America theme. Kara Tur perhaps more likely, though given the success of the Kamigawa magic set I’d imagine another crossover is a much more likely way they’ll bring Asian/Oriental into 5th.
However, despite this disappointment, I feel hope is not lost. We have fantastic organisations such as the DMsguild, which offers a way to fans to create and publish their own material such as Settings Guides. We even have our beloved creator of the Realms Ed Greenwood getting personally involved and adding his name to fan-made projects. In this thread alone we can see folks who have lovingly and painstakingly put material out there, even for free! I personally now spend way more money on DMsguild than I do on WotC releases and will continue to do so.
Whilst we can easily sit and moan that the Realms isn’t getting any love in official releases, I don’t think that’s going to achieve anything. FR had its time in the sun as the poster setting for 5th edition and sadly that’s come to an end. I for one am now looking for a way in to contribute to creating something for the setting – I consider myself a good writer with fairly extensive knowledge of the setting I’ve loved for 25+ years. Just need to work out what kind of software I need and pick a subject!
Apologies for the lengthy post, I get carried away easily! |
"It is you, after all, which has brought us to the dream. Nothing is real. Yet." |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 11:57:01
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I agree with Kilamandaros. I've long thought that there are far more non-FR gaming fans out there than hardcore FR fans these days. WotC moving away from the Realms is unsurprising. For me, I have no problem with them never returning to it.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 23:45:09
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*laughing*
The more they move from more FR products...the less they can screw up! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 00:07:21
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I see Forgotten Realms only getting more popular and more likely to be a D&D setting that everyone knows with video games like Baldur's Gate 3.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1293 Posts |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilamandaros
I actually disagree that it's the left-leaning cancel-culture of the new world that's causing WotC to move away from FR in 5th edition. You need only look at their flagship product which has a much bigger audience and capital reach than D&D - Magic the Gathering - to see they have no qualms exploring locations & worlds with ties to Real World history. Amonkhet, Kamigawa, Ixalan to name just a few sets in recent years that have done this. Yes, the way they approach these settings is a lot more sensitive than it was 30 years ago but I don't believe for a second they would hesitate in D&D.
.....
Whilst we can easily sit and moan that the Realms isn’t getting any love in official releases, I don’t think that’s going to achieve anything. FR had its time in the sun as the poster setting for 5th edition and sadly that’s come to an end. I for one am now looking for a way in to contribute to creating something for the setting – I consider myself a good writer with fairly extensive knowledge of the setting I’ve loved for 25+ years. Just need to work out what kind of software I need and pick a subject!
I don't think it's due to cancel culture, either. I'm actually happy they're trying to be more diverse (though I think they've done some things poorly).
I am of mixed emotions when it comes to them drifting away from FR. On the one hand, a part of me wants them to leave it alone for a while, as I feel they've really messed with the lore, randomly changing it on a dime. Yes, they've changed things before, but this feels like it changes with every new product (I'm still sour about MToF). Not to mention their announcement that anything pre-5e is no longer considered canon.
On the other hand...I love FR, and I want to see more stuff set in the world (I miss the novel line so much). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:26:59
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| IMHO lack of new lore will kill a good thing before even bad lore does. When that first gamer comes to my table and says “what’s a Toril?” I will hang up my dice. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Can we salvage Toril?
