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novaes
Acolyte

Brazil
19 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  18:33:21  Show Profile Send novaes a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Dear sages, could you inform me if there is any description in terms of rules of "heavy magic" used by Karsus?

Rules can be contained in both Ad&d and 3.x

If there are no official rules for this type of magic, what do you suggest we do to introduce it into my game?

Is there any basis in the heavy magic quotes that would justify developing a "template", "heavy magic user"? Without this harming the canon, of course.

When a type of power, or creature is mentioned in realms material, but there are no statistics, only descriptions, what do you usually do?

Imaskar's dimensional magic and necromancy, this is true power. Ystaraj Khendarhine

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10837 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  19:53:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From page 10-11 of the Netheril boxed set (TSR 1147)


Karsus discovered that the phaerimm’s magic drain was beginning
to weaken the life-enduring magic he had constructed around
himself, and he determined that he needed to find the source of
the draining or choose a different way to stay alive. He reverted to
lichdom and began experimenting with heavy magic. This graft of
physics, chemistry, and magic was so unstable, Karsus felt that it
would either be the end of Netheril—and possibly all of Toril—or
a boost for the magic that seemed to be draining away His main
reason for studying heavy magic was to destroy the denizens of
the underworld who he believed were responsible for the evergrowing
decline of available magic.

Heavy magic, unlike other forms of magic, was a tangible
force. It was like a sphere of clear honey that didn’t leave any
residue after contact but instead slowly extricated itself from any
object it came in contact with. Moving a hand or walking through
heavy magic created effects similar to moving through hip-deep
water.

Karsus discovered that heavy magic could be enchanted with
other spells. He also determined that heavy magic could be
“painted” or “daubed” on any surface (like a wall, door, or mechanism),
and the surface would take on the effect. Karsus found it
very handy to force a bit of heavy magic enhanced with a dispel
magic into a lock, especially when it disabled the use of detect
traps and deactivated a magical lock pick set.

One cubic foot of heavy magic (weighing one pound) could be
created by an arcanist for each level of experience, so when
Karsus cast the heavy magic spell, he created 41 cubic feet. He
enspelled the thick, gelatinous blob with a Volhm’s drain spell,
which was designed to transfer magical power to the largest
power source within a 2,500-foot radius-and it began sapping the
energies released from the mythallar. The Volhm’s drain spell
both collected and sent the power back to the mythallar, robbing
the enclave of magical power.

The whole enclave began toppling toward the ground, and the
street lights and all the quasimagical items used on the flying city
flickered and pulsed. In a desperate move, Karsus levitated the
heavy magic and used Tolodine’s gust of wind to force it over the
side of the city. It plummeted to the High Forest. Wulgreth, a renegade
arcanist living in the area, was slain and turned into a lich
when Karsus’s heavy magic absorbed his life energies.

Karsus spent the next few years studying this new concept in
magic and tried to make it work. He liked the idea of enspelling a
mass of heavy magic and liberally painting the spell effect on
whatever he wanted. He painted a Toscudlo’s hallucinatory terrain
on the walls and ceiling of an entire room, creating a sort of
disoriented realm of dreams. He was able to make a judicial podium
that notified everyone in the courtroom when someone lied
while on the stand.

While attempting to figure out other ways to use heavy magic,
Unity, a city on the northern border of the Far Horns Forest, was
infiltrated by fiends from the lower planes who sought the city as
a staging grounds for an eventual takeover of Karsus. They would
have succeeded, but Karsus and his most trusted advisors and
“friends” used heavy magic imbued with Oberon’s dismissal and
Aksa’s disintegrate spells to banish and slay the beasts over a
three-year time period.

Around the year 3505, the strange interaction of magic (due to
the phaerimm’s’ magic drain spells) began to worry the archwizards,
and many of them left for points north and west. One arcanist
traveled west to create the human nation called Illusk, named
after the culture that once lived there. He used his magical power
to build an entire city. He died in the process, but his followers
lived on the fruits of his labor.

Those that remained behind tried to discover a weakness they
could exploit in the phaerimm, and they received some mysterious
assistance from a race of creatures known as the sharn. The
sharn cast magic that altered the very geography of the land when
it came in contact with the phaerimm’s magic drain and life
drain spells, transforming mountains into rolling hills or increasing
the spread of the desert. The phaerimm were suddenly faced
with a two-front war.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10837 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  19:55:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, as I've said before.... a lot of folks were working with "new ideas" back then, so what I just pasted can probably use some work... but it gives a basis so that you get the idea of what heavy magic was for.... essentially it was like being able to make a paint that contained a spell (such as a spell to block divinations for instance) and then "paint" the spell into place to make an area proof from spies, etc.... or you could paint a room full of illusion, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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35543 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  21:01:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a clumsy concept, honestly. A cubic foot weighs only a pound, but has the same resistance as a lot of water? It removes itself from whatever its on but can be painted on surfaces and transfer magical effects to them?

Also, for me at least, the term "heavy magic" brings to mind "heavy water".

I think it would have been better if it was thought out some more, named something else, and if this "thick, gelatinous" material actually had a mass that would back up these descriptions of the physical nature of it.

Make it something crafted from other materials, rename it, be somewhat more concrete about its effects, and it would be more usable. Instead, it's as a lot of stuff in the boxed set: nifty at first glance, but barely if at all useable upon further consideration.

And I'm not sure "further consideration" was something applied to this set.

I'm not sure there's enough there to even justify a feat/proficiency for the stuff, and the "1 cubic foot per caster level" thing means that the higher level the caster, the more stuff they have to lug around. 10 pounds is light, even for a spellslinger, but that's a 10x10x10 room they're lugging around if they're messing with heavy magic.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Sep 2021 21:06:03
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5798 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  22:10:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think if it as solid light.

Physics is rather confused about a number of concepts relating to energy (waves, magnetism, gravity, etc).

Magic and life are synonymous or at least symbiotic (phaerimm life drain spells also stopped magic working briefly, darksun mages drain life when they cast spells).

So if magic is energy that can be moulded then heavy magic is what happens when you concentrate energy to the point that it has mass.

Just my thoughts, but there is of course no need to delve too deeply into the ways and hows because its magic

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7516 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  22:22:01  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's "heavy" compared to "normal" magic which is weightless. So it could be dropped like a bomb (which is basically what way Karsus did from his enclave), it could be poured into a cauldron, it could be hurled in a catapult. It could even displace or replace water.

Imagine if something which is normally massless, normally weightless suddenly had real weight. Like maybe computer data or radio signals? Suddenly your computer would have to be able to lift a website. Suddenly your mobile phone would have to be able to lift a conversation. Even if these things have hardly any weight at all, they would still have infinitely more weight than anything weightless.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10837 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  22:29:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's a clumsy concept, honestly. A cubic foot weighs only a pound, but has the same resistance as a lot of water? It removes itself from whatever its on but can be painted on surfaces and transfer magical effects to them?

Also, for me at least, the term "heavy magic" brings to mind "heavy water".

I think it would have been better if it was thought out some more, named something else, and if this "thick, gelatinous" material actually had a mass that would back up these descriptions of the physical nature of it.

Make it something crafted from other materials, rename it, be somewhat more concrete about its effects, and it would be more usable. Instead, it's as a lot of stuff in the boxed set: nifty at first glance, but barely if at all useable upon further consideration.

And I'm not sure "further consideration" was something applied to this set.

I'm not sure there's enough there to even justify a feat/proficiency for the stuff, and the "1 cubic foot per caster level" thing means that the higher level the caster, the more stuff they have to lug around. 10 pounds is light, even for a spellslinger, but that's a 10x10x10 room they're lugging around if they're messing with heavy magic.



Honestly, as much as I agree that he needed some work, I'd really like to see how people would write up their changes that improves it. Therefore, I throw down that gauntlet... let's say using either 3.5e or 5e rules.... show me YOUR version of Heavy Magic that doesn't break the ruleset (and while I am responding to Wooly, I intend it for anyone that feels they can write up a better set of rules). I have no doubt it can be done, but it doesn't mean its easy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10837 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2021 :  23:05:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

It's "heavy" compared to "normal" magic which is weightless. So it could be dropped like a bomb (which is basically what way Karsus did from his enclave), it could be poured into a cauldron, it could be hurled in a catapult. It could even displace or replace water.

Imagine if something which is normally massless, normally weightless suddenly had real weight. Like maybe computer data or radio signals? Suddenly your computer would have to be able to lift a website. Suddenly your mobile phone would have to be able to lift a conversation. Even if these things have hardly any weight at all, they would still have infinitely more weight than anything weightless.



Good ideas.... Picture it,
cast animate dead into some heavy magic and then broadcast that over a section of battlefield filled with dead.

Facing a group of enemies armed with magical items, hurl an exploding ball filled with dispel magic infused heavy magic.

Of course those uses can be done with area effect magics.... but what if the heavy magic is instead filled with targeted effects. What if its filled with beneficial effects that are normally for individuals.

Want to give non-magical folks the ability to "spray" spells on people? Fill a bladder with a hose/nozzle that contains heavy magic with whatever spell you want to fill it with.

Like the description states, the implications of this could be really far reaching.... but the basic concept is very interesting. I'd prefer to reign in its power to add it to a campaign, but honestly how exactly to write that up.....


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35543 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  00:43:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's a clumsy concept, honestly. A cubic foot weighs only a pound, but has the same resistance as a lot of water? It removes itself from whatever its on but can be painted on surfaces and transfer magical effects to them?

Also, for me at least, the term "heavy magic" brings to mind "heavy water".

I think it would have been better if it was thought out some more, named something else, and if this "thick, gelatinous" material actually had a mass that would back up these descriptions of the physical nature of it.

Make it something crafted from other materials, rename it, be somewhat more concrete about its effects, and it would be more usable. Instead, it's as a lot of stuff in the boxed set: nifty at first glance, but barely if at all useable upon further consideration.

And I'm not sure "further consideration" was something applied to this set.

I'm not sure there's enough there to even justify a feat/proficiency for the stuff, and the "1 cubic foot per caster level" thing means that the higher level the caster, the more stuff they have to lug around. 10 pounds is light, even for a spellslinger, but that's a 10x10x10 room they're lugging around if they're messing with heavy magic.



Honestly, as much as I agree that he needed some work, I'd really like to see how people would write up their changes that improves it. Therefore, I throw down that gauntlet... let's say using either 3.5e or 5e rules.... show me YOUR version of Heavy Magic that doesn't break the ruleset (and while I am responding to Wooly, I intend it for anyone that feels they can write up a better set of rules). I have no doubt it can be done, but it doesn't mean its easy.



Sorry, but I'm not a rules person. I think the overall concept is too badly flawed. For me, it's one of those situations where it would take more time and energy to fix a bad thing than it would to just make something new.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35543 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  00:59:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

It's "heavy" compared to "normal" magic which is weightless. So it could be dropped like a bomb (which is basically what way Karsus did from his enclave), it could be poured into a cauldron, it could be hurled in a catapult. It could even displace or replace water.

Imagine if something which is normally massless, normally weightless suddenly had real weight. Like maybe computer data or radio signals? Suddenly your computer would have to be able to lift a website. Suddenly your mobile phone would have to be able to lift a conversation. Even if these things have hardly any weight at all, they would still have infinitely more weight than anything weightless.



It's not just the weight, though -- it's the description of it as being a thick substance with noticeable resistance. Even one cubic foot of cotton is going to weigh a lot more than a pound.

A cubic foot of water is over 8 pounds.

If something is providing the same resistance as water, and is described as being thick, then it has to have substantially more mass than one pound per foot. Either there's something there to provide resistance or there isn't. It can't be both.

(Also, if you drop 40 pounds of something on somebody, from a significant height, there isn't going to be enough left to rise as a lich)

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Lord Karsus
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USA
3652 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  16:07:46  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-As presented, I always thought Heavy Magic was stupid. It was represented as 'special' and 'revolutionary' and 'groundbreaking' when you could imbue you could always imbue gems or create spell wards or whatever to do the same thing. I guess, from an in-game perception, Heavy Magic things easier and much more economical and that in and of itself would be groundbreaking from an in-game point of view (using the Dismissal example, yeah, it's much easier and cheaper to lay Heavy Magic imbued with the spell down and let it do it's thing rather than sit there and cast spell after spell after spell or whatever), but I don't know. I always imagined Heavy Magic to be something more and impressive.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35543 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  18:00:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-As presented, I always thought Heavy Magic was stupid. It was represented as 'special' and 'revolutionary' and 'groundbreaking' when you could imbue you could always imbue gems or create spell wards or whatever to do the same thing. I guess, from an in-game perception, Heavy Magic things easier and much more economical and that in and of itself would be groundbreaking from an in-game point of view (using the Dismissal example, yeah, it's much easier and cheaper to lay Heavy Magic imbued with the spell down and let it do it's thing rather than sit there and cast spell after spell after spell or whatever), but I don't know. I always imagined Heavy Magic to be something more and impressive.



As described, it's more versatile than doing spell wards or imbuing spells into gems or other objects -- but it also seems less stable, more volatile, given that it nearly crashed an enclave and then somehow transformed someone into a lich.

Either way, since we weren't given much in terms of concrete, rules-based information, it's really hard to try to adapt it.

(And now that I think about it -- what the smurf? So this mass of heavy magic that Karsus was playing with somehow started leeching off of the available magic in the area. Despite this, he's still able to manipulate it with magic, and chuck it over the side of his enclave. This forty pound blob of material falls thousands of feet and manages to hit some unlucky schmuck who just happened to be standing under an enclave, in exactly the right place to get clobbered by a flying magical blob. This blob of material somehow fails to utterly pulverize this poor guy, and instead, its leeching-magic-from-nearby-sources magic turns the guy into a lich. This is some Madcoil-level horrible origin story stuff, here.)

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10837 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  18:31:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-As presented, I always thought Heavy Magic was stupid. It was represented as 'special' and 'revolutionary' and 'groundbreaking' when you could imbue you could always imbue gems or create spell wards or whatever to do the same thing. I guess, from an in-game perception, Heavy Magic things easier and much more economical and that in and of itself would be groundbreaking from an in-game point of view (using the Dismissal example, yeah, it's much easier and cheaper to lay Heavy Magic imbued with the spell down and let it do it's thing rather than sit there and cast spell after spell after spell or whatever), but I don't know. I always imagined Heavy Magic to be something more and impressive.



Yeah, one thing that I've been thinking about recently (and literally only because I reread the stuff for heavy magic yesterday) is the idea of the enclave of doubloon being able to make itself "cloaked". I started thinking about it and "yeah, you can do a mythal".... but honestly, what if they had like a glassteel dome over the enclave and they painted the dome with heavy magic (a LOT of heavy magic mind you, but once spread thin like paint, it could cover a lot of area). Maybe they have some "lesser" version of heavy magic that can only hold a spell effect for its normal duration (so they paint the dome, and any time they need to go cloaked, they cast a simple invisibility spell into it and it spreads through the whole area of contiguous heavy magic).

Maybe the dome itself isn't even glassteel, maybe its regular glass, and a coating of heavy magic on the outside contains a spell of wall of force (or the old glassteel spell).

Might this be extremely powerful? Yes. Might this be used as something where modern day arcanists are now trying to study HOW this is done and they're having problems following the logic of its making? Sure.

Since we have the topic up, I'd love to hear other uses people may have for the stuff. As I'm thinking about Luneira itself and how it might have used it.... its kind of making me think I may try my own hand at writing some 5e ruleset for the stuff (which makes me realize... this stuff might be consider artifact level, which could be interesting to write up).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10837 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  18:42:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

It's "heavy" compared to "normal" magic which is weightless. So it could be dropped like a bomb (which is basically what way Karsus did from his enclave), it could be poured into a cauldron, it could be hurled in a catapult. It could even displace or replace water.

Imagine if something which is normally massless, normally weightless suddenly had real weight. Like maybe computer data or radio signals? Suddenly your computer would have to be able to lift a website. Suddenly your mobile phone would have to be able to lift a conversation. Even if these things have hardly any weight at all, they would still have infinitely more weight than anything weightless.



It's not just the weight, though -- it's the description of it as being a thick substance with noticeable resistance. Even one cubic foot of cotton is going to weigh a lot more than a pound.

A cubic foot of water is over 8 pounds.

If something is providing the same resistance as water, and is described as being thick, then it has to have substantially more mass than one pound per foot. Either there's something there to provide resistance or there isn't. It can't be both.

(Also, if you drop 40 pounds of something on somebody, from a significant height, there isn't going to be enough left to rise as a lich)



Resistance COULD = Force (and by force, I mean the magical element of force... not the Newtonian physics version of force). There might be some "energy" in regards heavy magic that we can't describe in our "non-magical" physics. Remember, when talking about D&D energies, they don't necessarily work the same way that we would think of them in OUR world. For instance, electricity works differently. In some ways, even fire can be considered to work differently (i.e. magical fireballs in most editions don't fill a specified cubic area... overflowing and moving down hallways and destroying rooms that would be way beyond its normal reach). Sonic damage works differently, in that any sonic damage that could rend flesh to the same degree as a blast of fire would be heard MILES away and almost certainly make people deaf.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35543 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  18:47:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-As presented, I always thought Heavy Magic was stupid. It was represented as 'special' and 'revolutionary' and 'groundbreaking' when you could imbue you could always imbue gems or create spell wards or whatever to do the same thing. I guess, from an in-game perception, Heavy Magic things easier and much more economical and that in and of itself would be groundbreaking from an in-game point of view (using the Dismissal example, yeah, it's much easier and cheaper to lay Heavy Magic imbued with the spell down and let it do it's thing rather than sit there and cast spell after spell after spell or whatever), but I don't know. I always imagined Heavy Magic to be something more and impressive.



Yeah, one thing that I've been thinking about recently (and literally only because I reread the stuff for heavy magic yesterday) is the idea of the enclave of doubloon being able to make itself "cloaked". I started thinking about it and "yeah, you can do a mythal".... but honestly, what if they had like a glassteel dome over the enclave and they painted the dome with heavy magic (a LOT of heavy magic mind you, but once spread thin like paint, it could cover a lot of area). Maybe they have some "lesser" version of heavy magic that can only hold a spell effect for its normal duration (so they paint the dome, and any time they need to go cloaked, they cast a simple invisibility spell into it and it spreads through the whole area of contiguous heavy magic).

Maybe the dome itself isn't even glassteel, maybe its regular glass, and a coating of heavy magic on the outside contains a spell of wall of force (or the old glassteel spell).

Might this be extremely powerful? Yes. Might this be used as something where modern day arcanists are now trying to study HOW this is done and they're having problems following the logic of its making? Sure.

Since we have the topic up, I'd love to hear other uses people may have for the stuff. As I'm thinking about Luneira itself and how it might have used it.... its kind of making me think I may try my own hand at writing some 5e ruleset for the stuff (which makes me realize... this stuff might be consider artifact level, which could be interesting to write up).



I dunno, it seems like it'd be easier to just cast a big invisibility spell, and tie it to the mythallar, rather than build a big dome, enchant it, create the heavy magic, paint the dome, and then throw spells into the heavy magic.

Also, it seems really, really broken to have a spell effect extended over an area hundreds, if not thousands of times larger than the norm, through the application of heavy magic.

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Kentinal
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4610 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  18:56:00  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



As described, it's more versatile than doing spell wards or imbuing spells into gems or other objects -- but it also seems less stable, more volatile, given that it nearly crashed an enclave and then somehow transformed someone into a lich.

Either way, since we weren't given much in terms of concrete, rules-based information, it's really hard to try to adapt it.

(And now that I think about it -- what the smurf? So this mass of heavy magic that Karsus was playing with somehow started leeching off of the available magic in the area. Despite this, he's still able to manipulate it with magic, and chuck it over the side of his enclave. This forty pound blob of material falls thousands of feet and manages to hit some unlucky schmuck who just happened to be standing under an enclave, in exactly the right place to get clobbered by a flying magical blob. This blob of material somehow fails to utterly pulverize this poor guy, and instead, its leeching-magic-from-nearby-sources magic turns the guy into a lich. This is some Madcoil-level horrible origin story stuff, here.)



I first was concerned about Heavy magic causing a drain of magic, however on closer read.

quote:
Heavy magic, unlike other forms of magic, was a tangible
force. It was like a sphere of clear honey that didn’t leave any
residue after contact but instead slowly extricated itself from any
object it came in contact with.


Heavy magic by it self does no harm.

quote:
Karsus discovered that heavy magic could be enchanted with
other spells. He also determined that heavy magic could be
“painted” or “daubed” on any surface (like a wall, door, or mechanism),
and the surface would take on the effect. Karsus found it
very handy to force a bit of heavy magic enhanced with a dispel
magic into a lock, especially when it disabled the use of detect
traps and deactivated a magical lock pick set.


Not sure how often magic would be used on such locks, however in his world maybe most thieves were magic users.

Here is what caused the magic drain

quote:
One cubic foot of heavy magic (weighing one pound) could be
created by an arcanist for each level of experience, so when
Karsus cast the heavy magic spell, he created 41 cubic feet. He
enspelled the thick, gelatinous blob with a Volhm’s drain spell,
which was designed to transfer magical power to the largest
power source within a 2,500-foot radius-and it began sapping the
energies released from the mythallar. The Volhm’s drain spell
both collected and sent the power back to the mythallar, robbing
the enclave of magical power.


I do not know what the Volhm’s drain spell drains, web search only indicates it drains levels, the version Karsus used might have drained items. Thus allowing magic to be used to move the mass of gelatinous blob with magic spell.

As for the rest falling to the ground and making a lich ... that is not explained at all as to how that worked.

Side note the only reference I can find for Madcoil is Elfquest, are there any other possibilities?



"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Ayrik
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Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  19:23:19  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Magic follows its own rules. Especially experimental prototype magic practiced by a spellcaster with near-godlike mastery of the craft.

Little has been written about Heavy Magic. And - aside from the clumsy game rules quoted above - it's always been used as a MacGuffin narrative device instead of as a gaming implement. So you can basically devise whatever special rules you like, as long as they're consistent with the few which have been provided. (Indeed, they don't even have to be consistent so long as you can invent a consistent reason for the inconsistency, lol.)

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Heavy_magic

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  20:33:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal


quote:
Heavy magic, unlike other forms of magic, was a tangible
force. It was like a sphere of clear honey that didn’t leave any
residue after contact but instead slowly extricated itself from any
object it came in contact with.


Heavy magic by it self does no harm.


Neither does a brick. But like a brick, it has mass and resistance to something trying to move through it.

Even water can kill someone, if they fall into it from high enough.

Dropping 40 pounds of anything on someone's head, from a great height, is going to do more than mess up their hair. Several years ago, someone looked at the traps from the movie Home Alone. That swinging paint can to the face would have likely killed the bad guy -- and that's less weight from a lower altitude.

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal


As for the rest falling to the ground and making a lich ... that is not explained at all as to how that worked.

Side note the only reference I can find for Madcoil is Elfquest, are there any other possibilities?


Madcoil is from Elfquest, and to me, it is the best example of an absolutely unworkable backstory.

Madcoil's backstory: sometime centuries or even millennia before the time of Cutter, some random elf walking through the woods wants to create a fire. He uses magic, but for some reason, it doesn't do anything. But the magic remained there, in that spot. Centuries or millennia later, a panther and a very large snake are for some reason fighting. The snake is wrapped around the panther. The two of them roll into that exact spot where the fire magic lay dormant -- and then, at exactly the same time, that spot is struck by lightning. The combination of lightning and fire magic somehow fuses the two creatures into one.

As a further bit of convenience, instead of some other possibility like a cat-headed snake with legs sticking out of its back, or some other useless fusion, the new creature is panther in the front -- head, chest, forelegs -- and giant snake from where the hips would be on down.

AND this new creature was somehow more intelligent than either of the original animals.

AND it was actively evil.

AND it somehow got a telepathic ability that neither original animal had.

Visually, Madcoil was a cool-looking critter. And the snake/cat combo is a nifty one. But that backstory...

If a backstory requires one incredible coincidence, you may or may not need to rethink it. If it requires more than one incredible coincidence and still leaves unexplained elements, then you need to go back to the drawing board.

So, Wulgreth just happens to be standing under an enclave, where this heavy magic can hit him, at the same time that Karsus finds the heavy magic not doing what he expected and becoming a big problem. And Wulgreth somehow isn't killed by this mass landing on top of him, but instead, he gets some other effect that is entirely unexplained.

Hence, I find his backstory to be wildly improbable and thus comparable to the high watermark of wildly improbable backstories: Madcoil.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Sep 2021 20:38:02
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TBeholder
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Posted - 11 Sep 2021 :  22:09:06  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's a clumsy concept, honestly. A cubic foot weighs only a pound, but has the same resistance as a lot of water?
Why not?
quote:

It removes itself from whatever its on but can be painted on surfaces and transfer magical effects to them?

With other spells, probably. It's Netheril.
So the process looks like:
1. Create the initial droplet; it's non-adhesive to anything.
2. Adhesion or equivalent is cast on it; it becomes maximally adhesive to a single other surface, thus splatters over it as wide as possible.
3. Cast the desired spell on "paint", which makes it a persistent contact spell (whether it's permanent mythallars can make less of an issue).
The implied part is that magic adhesion isolates the affected surface, otherwise there would be problems with anything that adversely affects objects.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

it could be hurled in a catapult.

Not dense enough for half-decent ballistics. So, just drop or mostly-downward throw.

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal


I do not know what the Volhm�s drain spell drains, web search only indicates it drains levels, the version Karsus used might have drained items.

It's just Netherese name for Energy Drain.
Karsus tweaked it, his meddling had unforeseen effect of draining his mythallar's field, thus messed up everything it powered, including the enclave's levitation.
But he didn't learn to not mess with the power source keeping him alive, hence the end result.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 12 Sep 2021 01:26:13
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  13:55:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-As presented, I always thought Heavy Magic was stupid. It was represented as 'special' and 'revolutionary' and 'groundbreaking' when you could imbue you could always imbue gems or create spell wards or whatever to do the same thing. I guess, from an in-game perception, Heavy Magic things easier and much more economical and that in and of itself would be groundbreaking from an in-game point of view (using the Dismissal example, yeah, it's much easier and cheaper to lay Heavy Magic imbued with the spell down and let it do it's thing rather than sit there and cast spell after spell after spell or whatever), but I don't know. I always imagined Heavy Magic to be something more and impressive.



Yeah, one thing that I've been thinking about recently (and literally only because I reread the stuff for heavy magic yesterday) is the idea of the enclave of doubloon being able to make itself "cloaked". I started thinking about it and "yeah, you can do a mythal".... but honestly, what if they had like a glassteel dome over the enclave and they painted the dome with heavy magic (a LOT of heavy magic mind you, but once spread thin like paint, it could cover a lot of area). Maybe they have some "lesser" version of heavy magic that can only hold a spell effect for its normal duration (so they paint the dome, and any time they need to go cloaked, they cast a simple invisibility spell into it and it spreads through the whole area of contiguous heavy magic).

Maybe the dome itself isn't even glassteel, maybe its regular glass, and a coating of heavy magic on the outside contains a spell of wall of force (or the old glassteel spell).

Might this be extremely powerful? Yes. Might this be used as something where modern day arcanists are now trying to study HOW this is done and they're having problems following the logic of its making? Sure.

Since we have the topic up, I'd love to hear other uses people may have for the stuff. As I'm thinking about Luneira itself and how it might have used it.... its kind of making me think I may try my own hand at writing some 5e ruleset for the stuff (which makes me realize... this stuff might be consider artifact level, which could be interesting to write up).



I dunno, it seems like it'd be easier to just cast a big invisibility spell, and tie it to the mythallar, rather than build a big dome, enchant it, create the heavy magic, paint the dome, and then throw spells into the heavy magic.

Also, it seems really, really broken to have a spell effect extended over an area hundreds, if not thousands of times larger than the norm, through the application of heavy magic.



Exactly... that being the point, it matches to Karsus' fears. It also shouldn't be able to be recreated AS EASILY any longer due to changes in the weave (though it wasn't necessarily easy during Karsus' time).

Oh, and on the dome, part of my idea was also "this enclave can go underwater, enter gaseous environments that are dangerous, etc..."

I was thinking that perhaps the heavy magic degrades with time, even though I'm picturing it as an artifact. I'm not exactly sure what to do with the concept yet, but playing with the idea.

HOWEVER: I must thank you Wooly for the idea of having the mythallar casting the spell INTO the heavy magic. I'm actually thinking it might be interesting if the dome itself is regular glass that it coated with heavy magic on two sides. The bottom side is maybe holding a renewed version of "Proctiv's Steely Glass" (aka Glassteel) that's renewed by the mythallar. I might have other portions of the city using "Aksa's Glassteel" (aka Glassee... a spell that makes wood, stone, steel, or iron transparent like glass).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Sep 2021 14:14:24
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  14:23:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the Vohlm's Drain spells and making the lich, as already noted, it was effectively the spell energy drain. This drains levels and therefore life energy, and it is noted as being something that can create undead in earlier editions (not necessarily liches, but this is some overpowered amount). What I find interesting is that it drains from a mythallar, which MIGHT imply that mythallars (at least some) were drawing power from the positive material plane or somehow using "life energy". There have always been hints that the weave is linked to life in the world as well, so arguments can be made for it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  15:27:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Vohlm's Drain spells and making the lich, as already noted, it was effectively the spell energy drain. This drains levels and therefore life energy, and it is noted as being something that can create undead in earlier editions (not necessarily liches, but this is some overpowered amount). What I find interesting is that it drains from a mythallar, which MIGHT imply that mythallars (at least some) were drawing power from the positive material plane or somehow using "life energy". There have always been hints that the weave is linked to life in the world as well, so arguments can be made for it.



I could see the spell turning Wulgreth into some lesser undead -- but not a lich.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  15:34:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

HOWEVER: I must thank you Wooly for the idea of having the mythallar casting the spell INTO the heavy magic. I'm actually thinking it might be interesting if the dome itself is regular glass that it coated with heavy magic on two sides. The bottom side is maybe holding a renewed version of "Proctiv's Steely Glass" (aka Glassteel) that's renewed by the mythallar. I might have other portions of the city using "Aksa's Glassteel" (aka Glassee... a spell that makes wood, stone, steel, or iron transparent like glass).



I wasn't saying anything about the mythallar casting the spell into heavy magic. Mythallars can't cast spells; they're just batteries.

I was saying that there's no need to muck about with heavy magic and constructing a gigantic dome when you could have the same effects with a spell or two tied directly to the mythallar.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  18:03:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

HOWEVER: I must thank you Wooly for the idea of having the mythallar casting the spell INTO the heavy magic. I'm actually thinking it might be interesting if the dome itself is regular glass that it coated with heavy magic on two sides. The bottom side is maybe holding a renewed version of "Proctiv's Steely Glass" (aka Glassteel) that's renewed by the mythallar. I might have other portions of the city using "Aksa's Glassteel" (aka Glassee... a spell that makes wood, stone, steel, or iron transparent like glass).



I wasn't saying anything about the mythallar casting the spell into heavy magic. Mythallars can't cast spells; they're just batteries.

I was saying that there's no need to muck about with heavy magic and constructing a gigantic dome when you could have the same effects with a spell or two tied directly to the mythallar.



True, there would need to be some "entity" activating a quasi-magic item to enact the spells. Said entity could in theory be an intelligent construct or even in theory an intelligent item.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  19:53:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or, again, just have the caster cast the spell himself and tie it to the mythallar. There's no need for some artificial caster in the mix.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Sep 2021 :  23:44:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Or, again, just have the caster cast the spell himself and tie it to the mythallar. There's no need for some artificial caster in the mix.



Oh, only reason I was picturing it was the spell was relatively high in level. Then again... actually for Proctiv's Steely Glass (glassteel) the duration wasn't limited, so a one time casting would work.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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