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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 19:32:23
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So, what would be kept in the Herald's Holdfast that isn't available in Candlekeep? Do you reckon there is some sort of rivalry between them and they fight over secrets, or is certain knowledge that needs to be kept secret better stored in one of the libraries, and if so which one? As far as I can tell Candlekeep is more secure, so why would you store anything in the Herald's Holdfast that you were worried about losing?
I don't know much about the Herald's Holdfast, and I consider myself just slightly more knowledgeable about Candlekeep and it's defenses and wards, so I would love to learn more, or at the very least be pointed in the right direction. 
EDIT: Noticed I wrote Silverymoon instead of Candlekeep for some reason.
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On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 12 Dec 2020 22:19:47
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 22:32:44
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
I believe the Phoenix Prophecies may be one of them.
Best regards,
P.S. Congratulations on your promotion, learned one! :)
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 23:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Returnip,
I believe the Phoenix Prophecies may be one of them.
Best regards,
P.S. Congratulations on your promotion, learned one! :)
You with your interest in the Heralds might be able to elaborate a bit more?
And thanks. I didn't even notice. :) |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 23:24:49
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quote:
The original copy of The Phoenix Prophecies still existed in Herald's Holdfast as late as 1370 DR. Copies also could be found in Candlekeep, Calimport, Silverymoon, and Waterdeep.
As per https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Phoenix_Prophecies
The footnote indicates quote:
Steven E. Schend and Dale Donovan (September 1998). Empires of the Shining Sea. (TSR, Inc), pp. 6–8. ISBN 978-0786912377.
As to the question I would expect any difference would be items of linage being more a concern to the Heralds. So they would try to keep them there, though clearly might allow copies to be made. A Herald generated product clearly would want to be retained by the order as well.
It appears that the two share information and at best might compete friendly for an original copy of certain lore. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2020 : 00:05:01
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I would suggest specific to the North where it is located, there would be a collection of runestones from the great dwarven empires of the North, ancient elven texts and gnome gem "books" recounting tales and history of the Forgotten Folk.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2020 : 03:54:30
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Herald's Holdfast is the primary repository of heraldic lore, history, genealogy, and artifacts from nearly all the humanoid races native to Faerûn. So like news: births and deaths, marriages and annulments, alliances and blood feuds, new and altered heraldic blazons, crimes against the Law of Arms, geographic map updates, demographic and population statistics.
So, the Herald's Holdfast has a bit less fiction and things like spellbooks.....but a 400 year old dwarf paymaster ledger, they have two copies.
I guess they could be rivals....but it really makes more sense for them to share. If you really care about knowledge, you will want a couple copies of a book, stored in different places. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2020 : 23:34:54
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
My apologies for the brief response. I'll happily provide more information.
My belief regarding the keeping of the original manuscript of the Phoenix Prophecies at Herald's Holdfast is likely that it was transferred there from Candlekeep. To be clear, there is nothing that indicates that, but I can't think of any other place that likely would have been safer prior to the believed, impregnable Holdfast came about. Looking at the timing adds some credibility to the argument, but nothing guaranteed.
The Herald's were founded in 992DR. I couldn't find a year as to when the Holdfast was created, but I would think it was created after 922DR unless it was something else that was taken over by the Herald's. In approximately 970DR (Empires of the Shining Sea had a current year of 1370DR), the Prophecies were recorded by the Herald Swordswreath. Of note, is that the Herald's were not officially a thing yet, so I am assuming that who later became known as the Herald Swordswreath (that is a Herald from Zazesspur) is the one who transcribed the copies, of course, from the original. Zazesspur is not all that far from Mount Abbalayat, in the Marching Mountains, so it makes sense to me that that Herald would have the original manuscripts, and had them held for safe keeping at Candlekeep until the Holdfast came about.
Candlekeep has amazing defenses, but from reading about the Holdfast, I think it is likely safer there.
There were enormously important prophecies foreshadowing things of great historical importance, and as such, I think it reasonable to guard it from those seeking to distort history. I have some links below to other threads where I discuss the Phoenix Prophecies more.
Augury 16: The Phoenix Prophecies: An answer? http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22538&SearchTerms=phoenix,prophecies
Malaugrym - Phoenix Prophecies: Deep Question http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22533&SearchTerms=phoenix,prophecies
Xvim the Baneson: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3200&SearchTerms=phoenix,prophecies
*Of note on this, is my impression that Xvim was portended in prophecy.
Sammaster's Prophecies: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2383&SearchTerms=phoenix,prophecies
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2020 : 23:54:37
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| So many good replies. Thanks so much. Looks like I have some reading to do. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 01:48:34
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
quote:
So many good replies. Thanks so much. Looks like I have some reading to do.
Please do jump in on those Phoenix Prophecy specific scrolls as well. I'd love to get your input/feedback, etc.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 14:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Returnip,
quote:
So many good replies. Thanks so much. Looks like I have some reading to do.
Please do jump in on those Phoenix Prophecy specific scrolls as well. I'd love to get your input/feedback, etc.
Best regards,
I took a peek at them but I don't know much about them and I don't own Empires of the Shining Sea. Sorry. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 20:31:48
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
Well, if you ever get that product, you'll love it. Really great stuff to read. The Phoenix Prophecies are definitely a favorite of mine.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 08:19:05
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| I just got my hands on The North from 2nd ed and noticed that there's a lot more info on Herald's Holdfast there. Good stuff. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 15:07:22
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
Whoa, nice grab! That box set usually goes for a chunk of change!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 16:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Returnip,
Whoa, nice grab! That box set usually goes for a chunk of change!
Best regards,
Not the box. Just the booklet.
EDIT: Also it's a borrow. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 15 Dec 2020 16:08:44 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 19:45:10
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
quote:
Not the box. Just the booklet. EDIT: Also it's a borrow.
Ah, that makes sense. It's hard to find a set for sale, and last time I saw one on Ebay it was over $200.00!
Enjoy that read man! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 23:39:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I would suggest specific to the North where it is located, there would be a collection of runestones from the great dwarven empires of the North, ancient elven texts and gnome gem "books" recounting tales and history of the Forgotten Folk.
-- George Krashos
Yeah, anything like this, I'd expect the library to have more local information than anything far flung. Basically, a library on the west coast likely won't have as much on say Thay and Mulhorand as say a similar library manned by priests of Thoth in Mulhorand. Candlekeep may be known for far flung knowledge, but that doesn't mean it actually is equally knowledgable of the whole world. Same with Herald's Holdfast, Cormanthyr's library, the library holy to Deneir near Impiltur, etc.. Candlekeep probably has just a more broad amount of knowledge, and then it may direct you to search out some other book that's reference by a certain book there, etc...
I expect a lot of these lesser libraries have secret sections as well, but since they're not as well known/visited, their secrets are kept more through security by obscurity (i.e. you actually have to know its there, hunt it down, etc...) and have lesser defenses in place. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 05:11:42
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Great Reader sleyvas,
WHOA! That is weird seeing you with a new avatar like that! Very unexpected after so long. haha
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 13:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
WHOA! That is weird seeing you with a new avatar like that! Very unexpected after so long. haha
Best regards,
Lol, yeah, as much as I love the red knight.... I'm having fun playing my kercpa character, Rakiki (Rokki by nickname).
Prolly be in and out this week. Just got married. Also, dropped my laptop in rearranging the house and busted the screen, so I'm using an old desktop that's annoying.... and I'm hoping I didn't break anything else on the laptop... new screen hopefully arriving today or tomorrow. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Dec 2020 13:58:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 16:10:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
WHOA! That is weird seeing you with a new avatar like that! Very unexpected after so long. haha
Best regards,
Lol, yeah, as much as I love the red knight.... I'm having fun playing my kercpa character, Rakiki (Rokki by nickname).
Prolly be in and out this week. Just got married. Also, dropped my laptop in rearranging the house and busted the screen, so I'm using an old desktop that's annoying.... and I'm hoping I didn't break anything else on the laptop... new screen hopefully arriving today or tomorrow.
You could always attach an external monitor to the laptop... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 16:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
WHOA! That is weird seeing you with a new avatar like that! Very unexpected after so long. haha
Best regards,
Lol, yeah, as much as I love the red knight.... I'm having fun playing my kercpa character, Rakiki (Rokki by nickname).
Prolly be in and out this week. Just got married. Also, dropped my laptop in rearranging the house and busted the screen, so I'm using an old desktop that's annoying.... and I'm hoping I didn't break anything else on the laptop... new screen hopefully arriving today or tomorrow.
You could always attach an external monitor to the laptop...
tried. Didn't boot up properly, and I can't tell what its doing other than "no output". I can tell that it was at least sending some type of signal to the external monitor, because it changed state, but other than that... nada. First time I've ever cracked a laptop screen in more than 20 years, so it was kind of interesting to take it apart and figure out how to undo the cable to it (there is this "lever" that I had to undo that's literally about the width of a toothbrush hair.... I could barely see it... and I'm hoping I didn't hurt anything). But, don't want to fill up the forum with my silly issues. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 17:22:53
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Great Reader sleyvas,
Well, first and foremost: congratulations on your marriage! I wish you two the best!
Now to the real meat and potatoes here: what edition does your wife support, and is she pre or post-Spellplague? You know, the really important stuff!  haha
Have a great week!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 21:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
Well, first and foremost: congratulations on your marriage! I wish you two the best!
Now to the real meat and potatoes here: what edition does your wife support, and is she pre or post-Spellplague? You know, the really important stuff! haha
Have a great week!
Best regards,
Lol, thank you man. If a game goes on much more than 2-3 hours, my wife and stepdaughter are not interested. She and her daughter support "Hogwart's Battle", "Raiders of the North Sea", "Settlers of Cataan", "Lords of Waterdeep", the "Game of Thrones" card game, etc... My wife though is intimidated by roleplaying itself and much prefers to come in and offer food (she adores being a good host). My DM thought he was going to break her out of her shell, but I think her issue is less of "stage fright" and more of "I have to be the best, and I'm not reading that many rules just to do it". She does listen in though a bit and can follow some of what I'm talking about regarding the games. We enjoy painting and other things together (she has ceramics, and I do ceramics and minis), and she is "the best" at ceramics that you fire where it takes meticulous time and careful non-overlapping detail, whereas I'm "the better" at "get paint on it, and then cover your messups, and make it look real with drybrushing". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 21:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
WHOA! That is weird seeing you with a new avatar like that! Very unexpected after so long. haha
Best regards,
Lol, yeah, as much as I love the red knight.... I'm having fun playing my kercpa character, Rakiki (Rokki by nickname).
Prolly be in and out this week. Just got married. Also, dropped my laptop in rearranging the house and busted the screen, so I'm using an old desktop that's annoying.... and I'm hoping I didn't break anything else on the laptop... new screen hopefully arriving today or tomorrow.
You could always attach an external monitor to the laptop...
tried. Didn't boot up properly, and I can't tell what its doing other than "no output". I can tell that it was at least sending some type of signal to the external monitor, because it changed state, but other than that... nada. First time I've ever cracked a laptop screen in more than 20 years, so it was kind of interesting to take it apart and figure out how to undo the cable to it (there is this "lever" that I had to undo that's literally about the width of a toothbrush hair.... I could barely see it... and I'm hoping I didn't hurt anything). But, don't want to fill up the forum with my silly issues.
Wow.... I wouldn't normally say this on these forums.... but damn, if you ever break a laptop screen, go to laptopscreen.com. Not amazon, not somewhere else. They give videos. They give good info. If it weren't for me literally having to put all of this together by feel because its SO small (normally work on PC's, so this was new for me and my old eyes), it would have been cake. Without the videos, I'd never have seen the little lever.
Oh, and Candlekeep has the best source info on laptop screens (or for Savrassans, Lapcrystals) of any library in the realms. It definitely has more info on them than Herald's Holdfast. I return you to your regularly scheduled candlekeepery. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
748 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 23:22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and Candlekeep has the best source info on laptop screens (or for Savrassans, Lapcrystals) of any library in the realms. It definitely has more info on them than Herald's Holdfast.
Yeah, but don't ever avail yourself of the services of their repair monks. Thanks to those meddling Chosen of Mystra, Candlekeep loads more spyware into your palantír lapcrystal than Sauron ever imagined possible. I mean, you really want Elminster knowing how many times you've Volo'ed "Storm Silverhand chopping firewood nude"? (....or your wife  Congrats on the handfastings)
As to the OP's question of the Holdfast, I don't imagine there to be a real rivalry. The Holdfast is described as the greatest library "in the North" and, as George notes above, that comes with North-specific documents, from sexy DnD stuff like Dwarven rune-stones and Northman sorcerer-runes and High Forest Druid magic to more regional mundane matters of heraldic lore, weather patterns and effects on crop yields, local genealogy and (if I may copy words from Ed on a similar topic in the Ruins of Undermountain boxed set),
quote:
....thick accounting ledgers of guilds long gone and companies now forgotten; dull genealogies of unimportant but wealthy families....herbals of anonymous authorship and no drawings (useless to those not already expert enough in the field to recognize the plants themselves); descriptions of sewer and mine inspection tours made by a human writer who forgets to identify himself or the dwarven kingdom he is admiring – his rambling accounts wax enthusiastic about dwarven locks, water screw-pumps, and flying stairs; a stud and breeding record covering thirty years, of someone's herd of cattle kept within market distance of Amphail....
Sure, Candlekeep would like copies of all that just as they want copies of everything else, but I don't imagine it rising to the level of a full-on rivalry. They will all come to them in due time – after all, that is the true insidious genius of the give a book, to get access to a book system....
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 16 Dec 2020 23:45:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 02:17:10
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| I think there would probably be some sharing between the two, honestly. Candlekeep could be a "backup" for the Holdfast, and likely holds some records the Holdfast doesn't. (Nothing of great consequence; mostly likely, single copies of records that someone found and took south instead of north) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Dec 2020 02:18:50 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 06:50:55
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Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Lol, thank you man.
You are quite welcome good sir! :)
quote:
If a game goes on much more than 2-3 hours, my wife and stepdaughter are not interested.
I think that is a great place to go! My wife is a nerd too, but she is a book nerd that doesn't like gaming. She'll cosplay at a con with me, etc., and enjoys cons, but gaming is out. haha She's a hot English librarian though, so I am not complaining! :)
quote:
She and her daughter support "Hogwart's Battle", "Raiders of the North Sea", "Settlers of Cataan", "Lords of Waterdeep", the "Game of Thrones" card game, etc...
So cool! You've lucked out for sure good sir!
quote:
My wife though is intimidated by roleplaying itself and much prefers to come in and offer food (she adores being a good host). My DM thought he was going to break her out of her shell, but I think her issue is less of "stage fright" and more of "I have to be the best, and I'm not reading that many rules just to do it". She does listen in though a bit and can follow some of what I'm talking about regarding the games. We enjoy painting and other things together (she has ceramics, and I do ceramics and minis), and she is "the best" at ceramics that you fire where it takes meticulous time and careful non-overlapping detail, whereas I'm "the better" at "get paint on it, and then cover your messups, and make it look real with drybrushing".
Well, I'd say you lucked out for sure! Again, congratulations!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Candlekeep vs Herald's Holdfast
