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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  00:12:35  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So The Dragon Coast has a reputation for thieves and pirates. There's a ton of good information on the region online, specifically from the Realms Help site (I do plan on grabbing sourcebooks one day). It's also stated that because they're either too tiny or too transitory, there are communities that exist on The Dragon Coast that aren't recorded on maps.

In your opinion, how plausible would it be that an unrecorded tiny city/hamlet (of around 1000 people... could be a bit more or less) would exist on The Dragon Coast that is hardly corrupt in any way. Full of mostly honest people, and with little criminal/pirate activity.

Or does this seem too unrealistic given the region's reputation even for a hamlet? Perhaps it would have to be corrupt to some extent. I'm especially interested if this idea of an honest city is plausible on the shores of The Sea of Fallen Stars, say 20-30 miles from Starmantle. I feel like that would make them more vulnerable to corruption, or at least pirate attacks, but perhaps it's still plausible that they're generally good people and can manage to evade attacks.

Thanks!

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 27 Oct 2020 00:18:58

TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
500 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  00:57:30  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really don't see why there wouldn't be some "normal" little villages. Mostly, you would need some reason why the village hasn't been spotted from the water and raided. Maybe an area with a lot of rocks to where the shore can't be seen and a ship would avoid the area due to safety concerns. They can still go out in little boats and fish but a ship couldn't get near the place.

Also, a quick Internet search says that the waters near Indonesia is the most pirate infested place in the world. Do you believe that every village along that coast is in cahoots with the pirates?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34137 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  01:01:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think a thousand seems a bit large, for a tiny, unknown community. It's tiny by modern standards, sure, but not so tiny for the Realms.

That said, it's long be a given that there are small, unnamed communities all over the map.

I think your community could be spared the corruption of pirates, provided it had nothing to interest them. The biggest part of that would be that it would need to be inland enough that some pirate won't think to make it his secret home.

You need some reason for a community to be in whatever spot you chose, though. Farming may be good there, for example, but it's good in a lot of places -- what drew the original settlers to this spot? A community needs to have a reason to be there -- better resources than somewhere else, or good access to trade, or security enough to draw people in while remaining accessible to necessary external resources. Some communities grow around a particular physical resource, while others grow around prominent physical locations, like the only good ford on the river or a junction of trading routes.

Check out this topic: Rethmar, Rathole of the Shaar. It has links to some ENWorld posts by Ed, where he basically builds a town of about 5000 folks. It should be helpful for building your town, I should think.

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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  01:12:26  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Also, a quick Internet search says that the waters near Indonesia is the most pirate infested place in the world. Do you believe that every village along that coast is in cahoots with the pirates?



Maybe? I suppose not, but I'm no scholar of Southeast Asia/Oceania. I get how it could seem obvious, but I overthink and this is a fictional universe after all. Lol, I didn't think to research real-life Indonesia when considering a fictional village in The Forgotten Realms.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 27 Oct 2020 01:17:38
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  01:16:50  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think a thousand seems a bit large, for a tiny, unknown community. It's tiny by modern standards, sure, but not so tiny for the Realms.

That said, it's long be a given that there are small, unnamed communities all over the map.

I think your community could be spared the corruption of pirates, provided it had nothing to interest them. The biggest part of that would be that it would need to be inland enough that some pirate won't think to make it his secret home.

You need some reason for a community to be in whatever spot you chose, though. Farming may be good there, for example, but it's good in a lot of places -- what drew the original settlers to this spot? A community needs to have a reason to be there -- better resources than somewhere else, or good access to trade, or security enough to draw people in while remaining accessible to necessary external resources. Some communities grow around a particular physical resource, while others grow around prominent physical locations, like the only good ford on the river or a junction of trading routes.

Check out this topic: Rethmar, Rathole of the Shaar. It has links to some ENWorld posts by Ed, where he basically builds a town of about 5000 folks. It should be helpful for building your town, I should think.



Fair points, thank you. I will check out that thread for sure.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  01:39:48  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But I do get your point, Iriaeban. That's what I told myself, that there must be some tiny villages that aren't corrupt. Then, I get to thinking, what if this gets called out as unrealistic, implausible, etc. That's when I decided to get input from others. I appreciate the points you made in the first paragraph, they were helpful.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 27 Oct 2020 01:42:45
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
500 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  03:35:41  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

But I do get your point, Iriaeban. That's what I told myself, that there must be some tiny villages that aren't corrupt. Then, I get to thinking, what if this gets called out as unrealistic, implausible, etc. That's when I decided to get input from others. I appreciate the points you made in the first paragraph, they were helpful.



Oh, I have been there. It isn't fun. You end up going in circles and second guessing everything. I hated that.

I am glad I was able to help. Also, I am an optimist so for me, I have to believe there would be some good people there. Sometimes I forget that may come across as me being a horse's arse. That was not my intention.


"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  03:47:10  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

But I do get your point, Iriaeban. That's what I told myself, that there must be some tiny villages that aren't corrupt. Then, I get to thinking, what if this gets called out as unrealistic, implausible, etc. That's when I decided to get input from others. I appreciate the points you made in the first paragraph, they were helpful.



Oh, I have been there. It isn't fun. You end up going in circles and second guessing everything. I hated that.

I am glad I was able to help. Also, I am an optimist so for me, I have to believe there would be some good people there. Sometimes I forget that may come across as me being a horse's arse. That was not my intention.





Ah, no worries. I think I can be a little defensive at times, something I should work on.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34137 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  04:11:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As long as you can come up with a reasonable reason for them to not be corrupt, it's quite plausible.

And thinking on it, the town doesn't even have to be away from the water -- if there was something there to keep the pirates away. Nearly impenetrable rocks or a seriously shallow inlet could work, but this would hamper the inhabitants, as well, and it wouldn't address the pirates coming ashore in ship's boats.

But hey, a wizard who just wants to be left alone, and has the power to make that happen? That would work.

Some fearsome locals, like hags or harpies or some aquatic nasty that the townsfolk pay tribute to? That would work, too.

And neither of those last two options require evil actions or fear on the part of the townsfolk. Maybe the wizard is a good neighbor who doesn't want to see the real estate value go down.

Maybe some prior hero of the town fought the first leader of the harpies, and forged an agreement for the townsfolk to periodically leave out some crops and livestock for the harpies to take. The harpies leave the town alone, so long as the food keeps coming, and they make sure others don't ruin this sweet deal they've got.

Could be simpler, like some local wild animals that the townsfolk have tamed that make very effective guardians -- and this would also give the townsfolk an export.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  07:05:41  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Drizzt,

quote:
In your opinion, how plausible would it be that an unrecorded tiny city/hamlet (of around 1000 people... could be a bit more or less) would exist on The Dragon Coast that is hardly corrupt in any way. Full of mostly honest people, and with little criminal/pirate activity.


I think it is perfectly plausible. My wife is English, from County Norfolk, and there are a ton of those little villages up and down the coast over there. That being said, it is worth noting that a hamlet is extremely small: 81 to 400 people, according to the FR Wiki @ [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Hamlets] {I don't know the source from that point, but it appears to comport with RL}.

Those little villages/hamlets/thorps are very insular, and seem to actively work against outsiders trying to influence them, haha. I noticed that a lot in pubs when ever I've been over to England. Corruption is somewhat subjective though, as to people in a tight knit community, minor thefts may seem enormous, where as in larger cities, it's nothing. I feel you could easily set up a hamlet of your own without problem that comports with your criteria.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  18:17:29  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the additional insights Wooly! Great points to consider.

As well, thank you Master cpthero2. That info totally eluded me regarding the hamlet's population; I was actually on the village page when determining its population and I guess just started calling it a hamlet too for whatever reason. Thanks for the clear-up.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 27 Oct 2020 18:17:53
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34137 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  22:00:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

Thanks for the additional insights Wooly! Great points to consider.


Hey, you kickstarted a bout of creativity on my part. It's been my pleasure!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  22:26:17  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Drizzt,

My pleasure. Sometimes that context can really change things. Plus, as I said: those small towns can really "close ranks" as my wife puts it, when outsiders start coming around, and that is a great way to RP those situations, and to make it more difficult to influence certain areas.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  04:41:48  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Revisiting this proposed village near the coast: consider it's not right on the water, but about five miles from the shore. I was envisioning the entire community enclosed by stone walls, but I'm not sure how plausible that is. Sketching it out, 600 or so residents could easily fit in a 600 by 1000 foot plot of land, and there could still be hundreds of yards of farmland, and each household (I was imagining small, wooden houses about 15x30 feet) could have 200 square foot yards for growing vegetables, their own grains, or whatever.

I haven't seen many farming villages/towns that have the entirety of their village walled-off. It's just too much space to enclose with walls. However, a lot of these known areas that are mapped out have sprawling lands outside the main castle area, and larger populations.

Considering even small villages of 600 would have roughly 150 houses, they've obviously been around for some time. I'm trying to think how likely it would be that this theoretical village would have imported enough stone over the years to enclose the entire village, with dimensions of roughly 600x1000 feet. I'm sure it's plausible, but maybe the wall's investment would have taken a hit on the village's funds, and they've still yet to recover. Or maybe the wall itself isn't very tall/thick. Opinions? Thanks.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 15 Nov 2020 04:46:52
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4502 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  05:17:11  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

Revisiting this proposed village near the coast: consider it's not right on the water, but about five miles from the shore. I was envisioning the entire community enclosed by stone walls, but I'm not sure how plausible that is. Sketching it out, 600 or so residents could easily fit in a 600 by 1000 foot plot of land, and there could still be hundreds of yards of farmland, and each household (I was imagining small, wooden houses about 15x30 feet) could have 200 square foot yards for growing vegetables, their own grains, or whatever.

I haven't seen many farming villages/towns that have the entirety of their village walled-off. It's just too much space to enclose with walls. However, a lot of these known areas that are mapped out have sprawling lands outside the main castle area, and larger populations.

Considering even small villages of 600 would have roughly 150 houses, they've obviously been around for some time. I'm trying to think how likely it would be that this theoretical village would have imported enough stone over the years to enclose the entire village, with dimensions of roughly 600x1000 feet. I'm sure it's plausible, but maybe the wall's investment would have taken a hit on the village's funds, and they've still yet to recover. Or maybe the wall itself isn't very tall/thick. Opinions? Thanks.



Depending on the land you farm, it is very likely stones get pulled from the farm land fields. It is very unlikely any village would or could expend monies to import stone from far away. The basic models of protected communities is based on what is there. Wood walls if trees, rocks as indicated above, or earth banks built up.

As for sizing the community England fiefs it appears had a unit of measurement the rood (equal to one quarter of an acre) which was each peasant family garden next to their home, about one hundred by one hundred square feet.

I am am having a hard time fitting 150 house inside a space of 1000 X 600 that is only 600000 square feet, or 4000 square foot per house, garden and roads. No government buildings, I would say either not all homes in ares protected or a larger area would be need.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  06:02:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Drizzt,

I have some bookmarked material that you may find quite interesting. Here is a URL to it:

http://artserve.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bycountry/italy/rome/popolo/melbourne.planning/Part4-Medieval_Cities.pdf

I've used it (in all of its parts) over the years as a rubric for producing towns, etc. that appear to conform culturally to such building standards and urban planning (as we know it today).

I would take a hard look at page (9) as a starting place. It details how large towns between 1248 and 1500 only increased in size from 25,000 to 35,000. It's quite helpful, I feel.

Best regards,







Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  06:22:46  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

Revisiting this proposed village near the coast: consider it's not right on the water, but about five miles from the shore. I was envisioning the entire community enclosed by stone walls, but I'm not sure how plausible that is. Sketching it out, 600 or so residents could easily fit in a 600 by 1000 foot plot of land, and there could still be hundreds of yards of farmland, and each household (I was imagining small, wooden houses about 15x30 feet) could have 200 square foot yards for growing vegetables, their own grains, or whatever.

I haven't seen many farming villages/towns that have the entirety of their village walled-off. It's just too much space to enclose with walls. However, a lot of these known areas that are mapped out have sprawling lands outside the main castle area, and larger populations.

Considering even small villages of 600 would have roughly 150 houses, they've obviously been around for some time. I'm trying to think how likely it would be that this theoretical village would have imported enough stone over the years to enclose the entire village, with dimensions of roughly 600x1000 feet. I'm sure it's plausible, but maybe the wall's investment would have taken a hit on the village's funds, and they've still yet to recover. Or maybe the wall itself isn't very tall/thick. Opinions? Thanks.



Depending on the land you farm, it is very likely stones get pulled from the farm land fields. It is very unlikely any village would or could expend monies to import stone from far away. The basic models of protected communities is based on what is there. Wood walls if trees, rocks as indicated above, or earth banks built up.

As for sizing the community England fiefs it appears had a unit of measurement the rood (equal to one quarter of an acre) which was each peasant family garden next to their home, about one hundred by one hundred square feet.

I am am having a hard time fitting 150 house inside a space of 1000 X 600 that is only 600000 square feet, or 4000 square foot per house, garden and roads. No government buildings, I would say either not all homes in ares protected or a larger area would be need.



Awesome, thanks! Didn't even know stone would be pulled from farming but it makes sense - shows how little I know of/researched the subject.

Just to confirm from your quote: "No government buildings, I would say either not all homes in area protected or a larger area would be need."

You're basically saying that not enough stone would be pulled from said farming in order to enclose the 600,000 square foot space, correct? I guess the "larger area would be needed" part just confused me.

As for the 10,000 square foot plots you mentioned, I was kind of thinking there were hundreds of yards (if only a couple) of community fields where the peasants would work. Then, the more skilled laborers would have their own plots of land, like the 4000 square feet mentioned above. This would still leave space for a castle. But perhaps this doesn't make much sense, I really don't know. I figure it must still be plausible at least; hopefully.

quote:
Seeker Drizzt,

I have some bookmarked material that you may find quite interesting. Here is a URL to it:

http://artserve.anu.edu.au/htdocs/bycountry/italy/rome/popolo/melbourne.planning/Part4-Medieval_Cities.pdf

I've used it (in all of its parts) over the years as a rubric for producing towns, etc. that appear to conform culturally to such building standards and urban planning (as we know it today).

I would take a hard look at page (9) as a starting place. It details how large towns between 1248 and 1500 only increased in size from 25,000 to 35,000. It's quite helpful, I feel.

Best regards,


Cool, I'll have to take a look at that resource. Thanks!

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 15 Nov 2020 06:24:07
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  12:42:59  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This may be a worn trope, but perhaps a bronze dragon lives in that region and visits your hamlet disguised as some animal the locals would not consider dangerous. Nobody would recongnize the animal for what it is.
Bronze dragons also like to test people's behaviors. Evil people tend to die before they can tell other people that bunny rabbit is a really powerful in combat. (Cue the Caer Bannog jokes.)
Bronze dragons also detest pirates and sahuagin, which discourages infestation of the local waters.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4502 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  14:25:11  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

Revisiting this proposed village near the coast: consider it's not right on the water, but about five miles from the shore. I was envisioning the entire community enclosed by stone walls, but I'm not sure how plausible that is. Sketching it out, 600 or so residents could easily fit in a 600 by 1000 foot plot of land, and there could still be hundreds of yards of farmland, and each household (I was imagining small, wooden houses about 15x30 feet) could have 200 square foot yards for growing vegetables, their own grains, or whatever.

I haven't seen many farming villages/towns that have the entirety of their village walled-off. It's just too much space to enclose with walls. However, a lot of these known areas that are mapped out have sprawling lands outside the main castle area, and larger populations.

Considering even small villages of 600 would have roughly 150 houses, they've obviously been around for some time. I'm trying to think how likely it would be that this theoretical village would have imported enough stone over the years to enclose the entire village, with dimensions of roughly 600x1000 feet. I'm sure it's plausible, but maybe the wall's investment would have taken a hit on the village's funds, and they've still yet to recover. Or maybe the wall itself isn't very tall/thick. Opinions? Thanks.



Depending on the land you farm, it is very likely stones get pulled from the farm land fields. It is very unlikely any village would or could expend monies to import stone from far away. The basic models of protected communities is based on what is there. Wood walls if trees, rocks as indicated above, or earth banks built up.

As for sizing the community England fiefs it appears had a unit of measurement the rood (equal to one quarter of an acre) which was each peasant family garden next to their home, about one hundred by one hundred square feet.

I am am having a hard time fitting 150 house inside a space of 1000 X 600 that is only 600000 square feet, or 4000 square foot per house, garden and roads. No government buildings, I would say either not all homes in ares protected or a larger area would be need.



Awesome, thanks! Didn't even know stone would be pulled from farming but it makes sense - shows how little I know of/researched the subject.

Just to confirm from your quote: "No government buildings, I would say either not all homes in area protected or a larger area would be need."

You're basically saying that not enough stone would be pulled from said farming in order to enclose the 600,000 square foot space, correct? I guess the "larger area would be needed" part just confused me.

As for the 10,000 square foot plots you mentioned, I was kind of thinking there were hundreds of yards (if only a couple) of community fields where the peasants would work. Then, the more skilled laborers would have their own plots of land, like the 4000 square feet mentioned above. This would still leave space for a castle. But perhaps this doesn't make much sense, I really don't know. I figure it must still be plausible at least; hopefully.





As far enough rocks, from the farming land. Each farm would be at least 10 acres, that much land was about what was needed to feed a family with fallow system and low taxes would be outside the walls of a fortified town. That provides some square miles of land to find rocks on to get out of the way.

The garden in the town are too small to provide the "for growing vegetables, their own grains," either they need to have larger area outside the walls or the perimeter of the town needs to be larger. You still need streets, temples and government buildings and likely some businesses. Warehouses and stables very likely needed as well.

I do see cpthero2 did post a reference of some towns/cities with buildings side by side in very dense construction. Some of them do not appear to have any gardens. This can fit your homes in the area you want.

I just do not believe you can comfortable fit 600 people in a relatively small area comfortable. If there is high danger people certainly do crowd behind walls, however under siege conditions could not grow enough food within the walls.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  16:49:01  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Drizzt,

Great Reader Kentinal's references are definitely correct for a time period specifically referred to as the Middle High Germanic period. That is both a language period, and a cultural period that encompasses architecture, farming, economics (though that was not then what we think of it now as a social science), law, etc. An absolutely invaluable resource for you to read regarding the structuring of these kinds of towns that incorporate magic as well, beyond the mundane elements as discussed herein, is A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe by Joseph Browning and Suzi Yee

I rarely do this as it can be a bit much, however, in this case I will make an exception:

Get that pdf from Suzi and Joseph. It will literally be one of the best sources of information for you in writing about towns, cities, urban planning, magic to help it all along, etc. It truly is that amazing. I've referenced it and used it in my campaigns since it came out in 2003 or 2004 (it was a long time ago). Fantastic!

Also, before I close here, in case Suzi and Joseph are on this site: you two are awesome, thank you for all the awesome material you've produced over the years! :)

Here is a link to some other epic gaming material they've produced over the years:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/210952.Suzi_Yee

The first three are the ones relative to what you're looking for I believe.

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  21:13:40  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys. And that all makes sense Kentinal; glad I asked, because I understand now that my visualization was not accurate.

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  23:35:19  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Drizzt,

No sweat. Also, if and when you read those documents I references, let me know what you think on here if you don't mind. Obviously I am a believer, but I think it might help others to, to decide to pull the trigger on whether or not to look into those as well if they get other perspectives, or to not not look into them if you think they are awful. haha

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Scimitars of Drizzt
Seeker

Canada
76 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  22:45:36  Show Profile Send Scimitars of Drizzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Seeker Drizzt,

No sweat. Also, if and when you read those documents I referenced, let me know what you think on here if you don't mind. Obviously I am a believer, but I think it might help others to, to decide to pull the trigger on whether or not to look into those as well if they get other perspectives, or to not not look into them if you think they are awful. haha

Best regards,



Master cpthero2,

I did read page 9 of the first document you posted, as suggested. Honestly, I don't think it's awful and I believe it could be a good reference to some. Personally, I just find it significantly easier to reference existing cities, villages, etc. in Faerun as opposed to real-life places in the Medieval times. I get Faerun/the Realms were inspired by these periods of time, and a lot of the information in these documents pertains to cities in the Realms. I just personally have trouble in extracting this real-life information and comfortably applying it to Faerun.

I actually ended up studying maps of villages/towns in Faerun (Daggerford has a very in-depth map that helped me immensely in determining village sizing/building locations, etc.). Great Reader Kentinal's info opened my eyes to how ignorant I was to farming - really farmland in particular. I had to re-read his line that about 10 acres was required to sustain just a single family. I then realized how brutally I'd misinterpreted how much land was actually needed. In the end, all this farmland will be similar to Daggerford in the sense that it'll be outside the walls. Then, the village proper will be of similar sizing (about 100 yards long and wide) and in turn will eliminate the problems I was having with creating this village. I assume they could easily pull enough stones to encapsulate this significanty smaller space, and then the farmlands will run for hundreds of acres outside the walls.

Honestly, it's a good resource and I'd bet it could greatly help someone who had less of an overthinking mind. Like mentioned, I'm just personally more comfortable with using Faerun-existing locations to help visualize a place in that realm.

EDIT: grammar, and...with this post I'm a Learned Scribe now!

"Surrender now, or we will slay you!" the leader of the creatures called, a bit louder and more forcefully.
"A moment, please, my friend," Zasian said, motioning to the dwarf for patience. "We are discussing your terms."

"Ye heading off with Invo . . . Inno . . . that durned elf?"

Edited by - Scimitars of Drizzt on 16 Nov 2020 22:59:23
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4502 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  23:06:46  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Scimitars of Drizzt congratulations of your promotion.

I am happy to know that I did help provide some insight to help with your project.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  23:13:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Drizzt,

First off: congrats! You've certainly learned more while at the 'Keep I must say. I also want to say as I do here and there: I truly appreciate the discourse, your open-minded nature, and sound arguments.

quote:
I did read page 9 of the first document you posted, as suggested. Honestly, I don't think it's awful and I believe it could be a good reference to some. Personally, I just find it significantly easier to reference existing cities, villages, etc. in Faerun as opposed to real-life places in the Medieval times. I get Faerun/the Realms were inspired by these periods of time, and a lot of the information in these documents pertains to cities in the Realms. I just personally have trouble in extracting this real-life information and comfortably applying it to Faerun.


Oh, no sweat. I can completely appreciate what you mean. Sometimes different materials work better than others for people, for a myriad of reasons. I just wish I could have suggested something better for you in that regard.

quote:
I actually ended up studying maps of villages/towns in Faerun (Daggerford has a very in-depth map that helped me immensely in determining village sizing/building locations, etc.). Great Reader Kentinal's info opened my eyes to how ignorant I was to farming - really farmland in particular. I had to re-read his line that about 10 acres was required to sustain just a single family. I then realized how brutally I'd misinterpreted how much land was actually needed. In the end, all this farmland will be similar to Daggerford in the sense that it'll be outside the walls. Then, the village proper will be of similar sizing (about 100 yards long and wide) and in turn will eliminate the problems I was having with creating this village. I assume they could easily pull enough stones to encapsulate this significanty smaller space, and then the farmlands will run for hundreds of acres outside the walls.


Great Reader Kentinal was in fact spot on, for sure, as I had mentioned. I thought perhaps some of the medieval urban planning material might perhaps intersect well with Great Reader Kentinal's valid points. Alas, I was incorrect! I am please that the Great Reader was able to help you though. He is an accomplished sage for sure.

quote:
Honestly, it's a good resource and I'd bet it could greatly help someone who had less of an overthinking mind. Like mentioned, I'm just personally more comfortable with using Faerun-existing locations to help visualize a place in that realm.


No sweat. I will certainly admit, there is a certain... staid... element to it. haha

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  00:09:28  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scimitars of Drizzt

I actually ended up studying maps of villages/towns in Faerun (Daggerford has a very in-depth map that helped me immensely in determining village sizing/building locations, etc.). Great Reader Kentinal's info opened my eyes to how ignorant I was to farming - really farmland in particular. I had to re-read his line that about 10 acres was required to sustain just a single family. I then realized how brutally I'd misinterpreted how much land was actually needed. In the end, all this farmland will be similar to Daggerford in the sense that it'll be outside the walls. Then, the village proper will be of similar sizing (about 100 yards long and wide) and in turn will eliminate the problems I was having with creating this village. I assume they could easily pull enough stones to encapsulate this significanty smaller space, and then the farmlands will run for hundreds of acres outside the walls...


If it helps, the writers seemed to have used the same 9 to 1 rule as they did with Waterdeep in that 9 times the permanent population of the town resides in the fertile lands surrounding the walled town in the scattered farming hamlets and thorps of the Shining Baronies. This poorly explained ratio was the reason people were scratching their heads at how 1360s Daggerford with a population of just over 300 were able to field an army of 600 by themselves in the Hordes of Dragonspear adventure. A loss of even 20% of these people would have been utterly devastating to the economy & survivability of the town. However, if this force was drawn from the 1000 people living within a days walk of the town and perhaps another 1500 or more living beyond that single day's journey but still within the jurisdiction of Daggerford then that would be more sustainable as well as representative of the ratio of cite dweller to agrarian laborer that was described in the FR setting books/box-sets.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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