Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Monetary Policy in the Realms
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  08:41:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was reading over the Cormyr accessory last night and ran across again the monetary policy of Cormyr which states,

quote:
Foreign currency is to be traded only by businesses approved to do so. This is intended to prevent the introduction of foreign currency into the general populace, which itself might devalue Cormyr's own currency. (Cormyr, 9410, p.38)


This is something, along with other stuff, that I've been working on for a long time as it just makes sense in the Realms to me.

How do any of you deal with monetary policy specifically in the Realms as it might relate to your adventurer's?

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6009 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  00:11:44  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't have a campaign but think that most of the true nations of the Realms (Cormyr, Tethyr, Calimshan, Impiltur, Chondath, Turmish, Mulhorand, Unther, etc.) would operate in the same fashion as noted in your post. Powerful/strategic city-states could operate this way (I see Zhentil Keep being one of them, and Telflamm as well) but most would not as their currency wouldn't have sufficient "power" when alternatives for traders/merchants were available (i.e. why go to Baldur's Gate and have to change to their currency when you can go to Scornubel and not bother - and avoid the fee; btw, I'm not suggesting that Baldur's Gate is one of the cities that demands you use its currency). I do think that any nuanced campaign would operate in this fashion.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  02:33:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

Glad to have you chime in. So, you make a really great point regarding the large economically influential nation or city-states. Large, economically powerful governments use monetary policy to rope in smaller areas all of the time. It's just a simple means by which to pull more influence and power together through prosperity. When I look at Waterdeep for example, it is easy to see how Greenfields, Triboar, Daggerford, and other places close, and within that economic trade zone would have enormous power to shape governments, influence many layers of policy internally and externally. So, I have several questions for you good sir:

1) How would you see, if at all, Waterdeep as a regional city-state of extraordinary might, use fiscal policy to influence other local powers, i.e. Daggerford, Triboard, Yartar, Neverwinter, Secomber?

2) Do you see nation states such as Dambrath (with the largest electrum mines in the world) using specie to flood the market in strategic ways to facilitate downstream dumping practices, and strategic resource purchases?

3) Why are "banks" under the banner of Waukeen more pronounced and using monetary policy backed by their substantial wealth to have transnational specie that leads to economic pacts the world over?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I don't have a campaign but think that most of the true nations of the Realms (Cormyr, Tethyr, Calimshan, Impiltur, Chondath, Turmish, Mulhorand, Unther, etc.) would operate in the same fashion as noted in your post. Powerful/strategic city-states could operate this way (I see Zhentil Keep being one of them, and Telflamm as well) but most would not as their currency wouldn't have sufficient "power" when alternatives for traders/merchants were available (i.e. why go to Baldur's Gate and have to change to their currency when you can go to Scornubel and not bother - and avoid the fee; btw, I'm not suggesting that Baldur's Gate is one of the cities that demands you use its currency). I do think that any nuanced campaign would operate in this fashion.

-- George Krashos


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  02:57:25  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my games I had introduced multiple types of currency that conflicted heavily with the notion of the 1GP 1SP 1CP of the D&D system and largely threw away the realms lore of having multiple names & mintings of essentially the same value coins.

Coins came in minted denominations from fractions of value to hundreds of times in value. While this value is noted in the minted surface, there can be some trouble in determining that value if the culture is different (pictographic representations of equivalent values instead of numbers or wholly different languages used for writings). The denominations would represent the more common transactions that are desirable to be done with a single unit of coin (i.e., a 12 copper coin that buys a round of small beer for a table of six at the pub or a half silver coin that pays for ferry service from the town to the pastoral hamlet upriver. Coins having different shapes, sizes, thicknesses, & imprints paint a picture of the economy around which the holder is a part (i.e., a hoard of small denomination coins from many nearby areas with a one or two exotic coins show the owner as being a small time day-laborer in a major crossroads area).

The coins themselves are not pure, with gold & silver coins needing to be alloyed to prevent the soft metal from being deformed by handling (which brings up the old RW custom of biting a coin to tell if the coin was real, altered, or fake). While counterfeiting is a source of coins lacking the valuable precious metal, the minters themselves would also dilute the precious metal in the alloy ratio process to prepare for large state-sponsored expenditures for which there is a lack of the appropriate metal for the investment. This sort of government enacted skullduggery is supposed to be unnoticed but savvy merchants & moneychangers have ways to see through those tricks (by weighing or scratch testing coins), and often predict these moves before the government leaders think to do them.

Additional fluctuations were based upon perceived value of trade areas of where that coin would be honored with the greatest influence being the size of merchants' operations home-based in the minter's zone of operation that visit the region. By that measure Amn's, Zhentil Keep's, Sembia's, & Thay's coins would have at least some value just about anywhere in Faerun. Luraur, Cormyr, & Mulhorand may be nations that have strong regional power but their coinage does not have the necessary legs to keep up value beyond their nearest neighbors.

Governments can and often do impose limitations on foreign currencies as a means for propping up the value of their own minted coins and a way to generate additional funds by short-changing those seeking to covert foreign money into local currency. Money changers make their profits from either offering more competitive rates than the government decreed rates or by being willing to make exchanges that could not otherwise be legally done (the caveat being the greater the risk the more unfavorable the rate).

The coins of fallen nations are highly speculative and largely devalued due to a lack of viable enforcers of the valuation unless there are reasons to covet the coins. The currency of the old shield dwarf realms tended to be fatter and more pure due to the mineral wealth those kingdoms enjoyed; moreover, gems were incorporated into some coins to accommodate larger transactions equal to thousands of the D&D 1GP. The mostly zinc & tin coins of Tavaray that are occasionally still found in the Lizard Swamp are little more than curious trinkets despite their denominations. What is true of the bygone nations is also true for the current states as those civilizations that seem to be in turmoil or deemed to be in danger of falling will also see their currency lose value.

So we have practical values, inherent values, perceived values, enforced values, and viable values all swirling into the value of any money at that moment, in that location, with that person, for that one transaction. This may sound like a lot of work - it isn't. Just a little bit of thinking about these notions should lead one to an answer that "feels right" for the currency you have created for your FR game.

At least this seems to go over better with my players than the D&D system that seems like a bag of money falls from the heavens a la Diablo whenever a monster gets hacked down. Admittedly, this is for players that like the world experience. This would not go over well with players counting out the coins to buy their next "kewl gat" to mow down their opposition as stress relief from their lives. I let my players know what they are in for before they adventure in my realms since I have changed the rules as they expected them to be.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
Go to Top of Page

Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
405 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  15:32:09  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

I was reading over the Cormyr accessory last night and ran across again the monetary policy of Cormyr which states,

quote:
Foreign currency is to be traded only by businesses approved to do so. This is intended to prevent the introduction of foreign currency into the general populace, which itself might devalue Cormyr's own currency. (Cormyr, 9410, p.38)


This is something, along with other stuff, that I've been working on for a long time as it just makes sense in the Realms to me.

How do any of you deal with monetary policy specifically in the Realms as it might relate to your adventurer's?

Best regards,



If the financial value of a transaction gets high enough, currency in my campaign tends to fall out of use, whether domestic or foreign. Business parties may cede titles/deeds to a particular plot of land. (Fine print: Mining rights have to specifically negotiated in real estate deals in my campaigns. Dwarves in particular are adamant on this point.) Other transactions may be 1. a class of services for a negotiated period of time, 2. discounts on commodities sold by a merchant or coster, 3. free access to use a restricted trail/byway that shortcuts publicly used roads. Letters of credit are considered after other options are exhausted, and only for partners/customers with a proven track record.

My two coppers.
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  16:16:54  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

Very nice man. I like that you've put that kind of work into your campaigns economy!

quote:
...but savvy merchants & moneychangers have ways to see through those tricks (by weighing or scratch testing coins), and often predict these moves before the government leaders think to do them.


Very nice! Some Mediterranean nations back in early medieval times use to do this by making their minting process produce through molding highly unusual weights. One of the ways to ensure "fair" trading was through rather advanced scales that were used and they could tell counterfeits rather quickly. That is definitely a known form of protection against counterfeiting! :) Great realism for your campaign for sure.

I also like the printing job to ensure the complicated nature of the coins is too much to surpass in challenge. Though, I must ask: how do you ensure that magic isn't utilized to overcome the specificities and likeness of the coins? Magic is the tech of the day in many regards.

As to the speculation on foreign currency, I would imagine it would just get melted down for the straight weight of the metals and consolidated, unless the nation state just failed economically, in which case buying the currency at bargain basement prices and then helping the nation recover to only then purchase all of their resources later at more powerful rate would be smart. ;) Sneak that into the assistance treaty. ;)

I really like the thought you've put into it man! Very nice.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

In my games I had introduced multiple types of currency that conflicted heavily with the notion of the 1GP 1SP 1CP of the D&D system and largely threw away the realms lore of having multiple names & mintings of essentially the same value coins.

Coins came in minted denominations from fractions of value to hundreds of times in value. While this value is noted in the minted surface, there can be some trouble in determining that value if the culture is different (pictographic representations of equivalent values instead of numbers or wholly different languages used for writings). The denominations would represent the more common transactions that are desirable to be done with a single unit of coin (i.e., a 12 copper coin that buys a round of small beer for a table of six at the pub or a half silver coin that pays for ferry service from the town to the pastoral hamlet upriver. Coins having different shapes, sizes, thicknesses, & imprints paint a picture of the economy around which the holder is a part (i.e., a hoard of small denomination coins from many nearby areas with a one or two exotic coins show the owner as being a small time day-laborer in a major crossroads area).

The coins themselves are not pure, with gold & silver coins needing to be alloyed to prevent the soft metal from being deformed by handling (which brings up the old RW custom of biting a coin to tell if the coin was real, altered, or fake). While counterfeiting is a source of coins lacking the valuable precious metal, the minters themselves would also dilute the precious metal in the alloy ratio process to prepare for large state-sponsored expenditures for which there is a lack of the appropriate metal for the investment. This sort of government enacted skullduggery is supposed to be unnoticed but savvy merchants & moneychangers have ways to see through those tricks (by weighing or scratch testing coins), and often predict these moves before the government leaders think to do them.

Additional fluctuations were based upon perceived value of trade areas of where that coin would be honored with the greatest influence being the size of merchants' operations home-based in the minter's zone of operation that visit the region. By that measure Amn's, Zhentil Keep's, Sembia's, & Thay's coins would have at least some value just about anywhere in Faerun. Luraur, Cormyr, & Mulhorand may be nations that have strong regional power but their coinage does not have the necessary legs to keep up value beyond their nearest neighbors.

Governments can and often do impose limitations on foreign currencies as a means for propping up the value of their own minted coins and a way to generate additional funds by short-changing those seeking to covert foreign money into local currency. Money changers make their profits from either offering more competitive rates than the government decreed rates or by being willing to make exchanges that could not otherwise be legally done (the caveat being the greater the risk the more unfavorable the rate).

The coins of fallen nations are highly speculative and largely devalued due to a lack of viable enforcers of the valuation unless there are reasons to covet the coins. The currency of the old shield dwarf realms tended to be fatter and more pure due to the mineral wealth those kingdoms enjoyed; moreover, gems were incorporated into some coins to accommodate larger transactions equal to thousands of the D&D 1GP. The mostly zinc & tin coins of Tavaray that are occasionally still found in the Lizard Swamp are little more than curious trinkets despite their denominations. What is true of the bygone nations is also true for the current states as those civilizations that seem to be in turmoil or deemed to be in danger of falling will also see their currency lose value.

So we have practical values, inherent values, perceived values, enforced values, and viable values all swirling into the value of any money at that moment, in that location, with that person, for that one transaction. This may sound like a lot of work - it isn't. Just a little bit of thinking about these notions should lead one to an answer that "feels right" for the currency you have created for your FR game.

At least this seems to go over better with my players than the D&D system that seems like a bag of money falls from the heavens a la Diablo whenever a monster gets hacked down. Admittedly, this is for players that like the world experience. This would not go over well with players counting out the coins to buy their next "kewl gat" to mow down their opposition as stress relief from their lives. I let my players know what they are in for before they adventure in my realms since I have changed the rules as they expected them to be.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  16:19:12  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Delnyn,

I see what you mean. You're saying that when the value in transactional specie gets to high, the risk is perceived as too much so real assets are utilized instead?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

I was reading over the Cormyr accessory last night and ran across again the monetary policy of Cormyr which states,

quote:
Foreign currency is to be traded only by businesses approved to do so. This is intended to prevent the introduction of foreign currency into the general populace, which itself might devalue Cormyr's own currency. (Cormyr, 9410, p.38)


This is something, along with other stuff, that I've been working on for a long time as it just makes sense in the Realms to me.

How do any of you deal with monetary policy specifically in the Realms as it might relate to your adventurer's?

Best regards,



If the financial value of a transaction gets high enough, currency in my campaign tends to fall out of use, whether domestic or foreign. Business parties may cede titles/deeds to a particular plot of land. (Fine print: Mining rights have to specifically negotiated in real estate deals in my campaigns. Dwarves in particular are adamant on this point.) Other transactions may be 1. a class of services for a negotiated period of time, 2. discounts on commodities sold by a merchant or coster, 3. free access to use a restricted trail/byway that shortcuts publicly used roads. Letters of credit are considered after other options are exhausted, and only for partners/customers with a proven track record.

My two coppers.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
405 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  18:29:15  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
That is exactly what I am saying.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


Seeker Delnyn,

I see what you mean. You're saying that when the value in transactional specie gets to high, the risk is perceived as too much so real assets are utilized instead?

Best regards,

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

I was reading over the Cormyr accessory last night and ran across again the monetary policy of Cormyr which states,

quote:
Foreign currency is to be traded only by businesses approved to do so. This is intended to prevent the introduction of foreign currency into the general populace, which itself might devalue Cormyr's own currency. (Cormyr, 9410, p.38)


This is something, along with other stuff, that I've been working on for a long time as it just makes sense in the Realms to me.

How do any of you deal with monetary policy specifically in the Realms as it might relate to your adventurer's?

Best regards,



If the financial value of a transaction gets high enough, currency in my campaign tends to fall out of use, whether domestic or foreign. Business parties may cede titles/deeds to a particular plot of land. (Fine print: Mining rights have to specifically negotiated in real estate deals in my campaigns. Dwarves in particular are adamant on this point.) Other transactions may be 1. a class of services for a negotiated period of time, 2. discounts on commodities sold by a merchant or coster, 3. free access to use a restricted trail/byway that shortcuts publicly used roads. Letters of credit are considered after other options are exhausted, and only for partners/customers with a proven track record.

My two coppers.



Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  03:06:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Fantastic! I really hope you jump in on the other different topics I have commented on in the Sages of Realmslore tome, as well as others in the Forgotten Realms Journals, Chat, etc.

I really like your style of argumentation and digging into things.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Senior Scribe cpthero2,
That is exactly what I am saying.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


Seeker Delnyn,

I see what you mean. You're saying that when the value in transactional specie gets to high, the risk is perceived as too much so real assets are utilized instead?

Best regards,

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

I was reading over the Cormyr accessory last night and ran across again the monetary policy of Cormyr which states,

quote:
Foreign currency is to be traded only by businesses approved to do so. This is intended to prevent the introduction of foreign currency into the general populace, which itself might devalue Cormyr's own currency. (Cormyr, 9410, p.38)


This is something, along with other stuff, that I've been working on for a long time as it just makes sense in the Realms to me.

How do any of you deal with monetary policy specifically in the Realms as it might relate to your adventurer's?

Best regards,



If the financial value of a transaction gets high enough, currency in my campaign tends to fall out of use, whether domestic or foreign. Business parties may cede titles/deeds to a particular plot of land. (Fine print: Mining rights have to specifically negotiated in real estate deals in my campaigns. Dwarves in particular are adamant on this point.) Other transactions may be 1. a class of services for a negotiated period of time, 2. discounts on commodities sold by a merchant or coster, 3. free access to use a restricted trail/byway that shortcuts publicly used roads. Letters of credit are considered after other options are exhausted, and only for partners/customers with a proven track record.

My two coppers.






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
405 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  01:12:13  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A sorcerer or wizard with the fabricate spell known, plenty of ranks in Craft (metal working) and coins with the correct material could run one heck of a counterfeiting operation.
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  03:14:52  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

You are so right there. In fact, that is a fantastic point. What do you think governments do to counteract that?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

A sorcerer or wizard with the fabricate spell known, plenty of ranks in Craft (metal working) and coins with the correct material could run one heck of a counterfeiting operation.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1861 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2020 :  08:32:58  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe Delnyn,

You are so right there. In fact, that is a fantastic point. What do you think governments do to counteract that?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

A sorcerer or wizard with the fabricate spell known, plenty of ranks in Craft (metal working) and coins with the correct material could run one heck of a counterfeiting operation.





I would generally assume that Fabricate turns out fairly plain, utilitarian examples of the items desired. Skill aside, there simply isn't time for the caster to imagine all sorts of flourishes and tiny details when the casting is only six seconds per cubic foot of mineral items.

Legitimate coinage in the Realms would thus make use of coin dies that included more small detail and artistic flourishes than the Fabricate spell could manage.

Plus, of course, the use of magic to detect attempts at counterfeiting and capital punishment for issuing false coin. Given how many legal ways there are for 9th+ level spellcasters to make all the money they want (seriously, check how many spells they can cast at home are economically significant and worth vast fees), it would be pretty stupid for a wizard to bother with something petty like counterfeiting when the risks were that high.

Of course, a sensible ruler might also lean into the use of the Fabricate spell to issue coin. Simply have a 10th+ level wizard made the Royal Coiner and have his mage sigil be a part of the coins he Fabricates. Any attempt to counterfeit that sigil is subject to the trifold Curse of Mystra.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 16 Jul 2020 08:44:12
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2020 :  02:13:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Icelander,

quote:
A sorcerer or wizard with the fabricate spell known, plenty of ranks in Craft (metal working) and coins with the correct material could run one heck of a counterfeiting operation.


Fantastic point sir! I love the idea as a campaign side quest, or sub-story arc!

quote:
I would generally assume that Fabricate turns out fairly plain, utilitarian examples of the items desired. Skill aside, there simply isn't time for the caster to imagine all sorts of flourishes and tiny details when the casting is only six seconds per cubic foot of mineral items.


I do agree here. I think the caster would do a lot of work, prep his casting for the specifics that would need to be done, or convert it into a ritual casting to ensure that he has the right amount of time to make it work if there are significant intricacies.

quote:
Legitimate coinage in the Realms would thus make use of coin dies that included more small detail and artistic flourishes than the Fabricate spell could manage.


I feel that in the vein of a counterfeiting ring, this would be something that either priests of gods of deception, or wizards who are greedy (or both) would take advantage of and try to get handled with other forms of magic.

quote:
Plus, of course, the use of magic to detect attempts at counterfeiting and capital punishment for issuing false coin. Given how many legal ways there are for 9th+ level spellcasters to make all the money they want (seriously, check how many spells they can cast at home are economically significant and worth vast fees), it would be pretty stupid for a wizard to bother with something petty like counterfeiting when the risks were that high.


Yes, I would imagine the legal system would get and likely is, robust regarding these kinds of issues.

quote:
Of course, a sensible ruler might also lean into the use of the Fabricate spell to issue coin. Simply have a 10th+ level wizard made the Royal Coiner and have his mage sigil be a part of the coins he Fabricates. Any attempt to counterfeit that sigil is subject to the trifold Curse of Mystra.


I agree with you here. The counterfeiting operations would likely be horrendous in all likelihood. They just don't make for sexy novel plots. ;) haha

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  00:25:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

I forgot to share a fantastic tome with you that you may very much enjoy reading:

A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe by Joseph Browning and Suzi Yee[/quote]

You will [i]love
that accessory!

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7315 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  01:02:06  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2E PHBR2: Complete Thief's Handbook described many dirty tricks for counterfeiting, skimming, and cheating currencies - along with the measures police and governments use to detect or prevent such crimes against the royal mint. You can look up numismatics (coin collecting) to learn a lot about how coins can be counterfeited, how counterfeits can be detected, what sorts of "secret" tricks are built into the coins to verify authenticity, to resist or detect tampering.

2E FRA described coinages of the Realms (well, at least of the Heartlands) in depth. It provided some insights - such as Waterdhavian coins being worth full value within Waterdeep but half value elsewhere, Dwarven trade bars being worth less to non-Dwarves, etc - which hinted at how governments can control the value of their own (and of intruding) currencies.

And of course the PHB and DMG offered brief explanations of usury, banking houses, coinchangers, etc. Wikipedia expands on these topics in comprehensive detail.

Most D&D is based on ye olde copper and silver and gold pieces. A coin is a coin, its value is predominantly assessed through commodity (as a precious metal), not representation (backed by the "honor" of some sovereign power). Adventurers have a habit of procuring all sorts of strange, foreign, or ancient coins from dungeons and dragon hoards, yet they need a way to turn that loot into a currency which will be accepted by the local tavern wenches. More detail is always better for immersion, but at the same time some things need to be kept simple to keep the story and the game from being snagged by trivial distractions.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Nov 2020 01:16:08
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  03:54:02  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

Fantastic recall on that!

quote:
2E PHBR2: Complete Thief's Handbook described many dirty tricks for counterfeiting, skimming, and cheating currencies - along with the measures police and governments use to detect or prevent such crimes against the royal mint. You can look up numismatics (coin collecting) to learn a lot about how coins can be counterfeited, how counterfeits can be detected, what sorts of "secret" tricks are built into the coins to verify authenticity, to resist or detect tampering.


Though I had those books back in the day, I don't recall that being a thing. Thank you for sharing that! :)

quote:
2E FRA described coinages of the Realms (well, at least of the Heartlands) in depth. It provided some insights - such as Waterdhavian coins being worth full value within Waterdeep but half value elsewhere, Dwarven trade bars being worth less to non-Dwarves, etc - which hinted at how governments can control the value of their own (and of intruding) currencies.


I am going to have to dig into that again, as I just don't recall that. Thank you again for sharing that!

quote:
And of course the PHB and DMG offered brief explanations of usury, banking houses, coinchangers, etc. Wikipedia expands on these topics in comprehensive detail.


Those in particular I probably already have knowledge about with my historical knowledge of high medievial/manorial economics. I will check it out though. One never knows! :)

quote:
Most D&D is based on ye olde copper and silver and gold pieces. A coin is a coin, its value is predominantly assessed through commodity (as a precious metal), not representation (backed by the "honor" of some sovereign power). Adventurers have a habit of procuring all sorts of strange, foreign, or ancient coins from dungeons and dragon hoards, yet they need a way to turn that loot into a currency which will be accepted by the local tavern wenches. More detail is always better for immersion, but at the same time some things need to be kept simple to keep the story and the game from being snagged by trivial distractions.



I love using specie as a means to influence suspicion, intrigue, etc. It may mean nothing, but the adventurers may not know that initially! :)

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
405 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  14:11:54  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ayrik brought up an extremely valid point about the value of a coin being measured by commodity (substance) rather than representation. Let us use Zhentil Keep as an example. Zhentish coins may have some market value around the Moonsea region and other areas especially in Western Heartlands where the Black Network holds sway. Scribes, please chime in on this last claim.

The problem is what happened to the coin values when Zhentil Keep was sacked not once, but twice? If you say value by commodity, there is no problem unless some miners strike an enormous vein and flood the market. If you say value by representation, then the value basically vanishes.

Furthermore, what happens to local or even regional economies when adventurers schlep in a dragon's treasure hoard? Balagos probably has as much wealth as any city in Amn short of Athkatla. Scribes, again chime in on the correctness of this claim. Truth be told, I have not worked out the full ramifications of this situation, other than the adventurers need to watch their pockets, the fine print on contracts and their throats as they sleep.
Go to Top of Page

TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
510 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  16:35:14  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Ayrik brought up an extremely valid point about the value of a coin being measured by commodity (substance) rather than representation. Let us use Zhentil Keep as an example. Zhentish coins may have some market value around the Moonsea region and other areas especially in Western Heartlands where the Black Network holds sway. Scribes, please chime in on this last claim.

The problem is what happened to the coin values when Zhentil Keep was sacked not once, but twice? If you say value by commodity, there is no problem unless some miners strike an enormous vein and flood the market. If you say value by representation, then the value basically vanishes.

Furthermore, what happens to local or even regional economies when adventurers schlep in a dragon's treasure hoard? Balagos probably has as much wealth as any city in Amn short of Athkatla. Scribes, again chime in on the correctness of this claim. Truth be told, I have not worked out the full ramifications of this situation, other than the adventurers need to watch their pockets, the fine print on contracts and their throats as they sleep.



I would have to say it is by commodity because adventurers are going into dungeons and getting old coins that are still worth something even if the empire that made the coin is no longer around ("Oh, that is an old gold piece from Cortyn so it is worthless. It is pretty though.").

As for getting a large amount of coinage, I would say it depends on where you go to spend it. If you are in one of the really rich cities, you could just "invest" it in a couple property purchases and not crash the local economy. Otherwise, you would need to hold on to it via Hardbuckler or the Church of Waukeen (they offer money lending and I am sure they won't mind operating as a bank/investment house for anyone suddenly rich--for a fee/donation, of course).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7315 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  18:55:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Adventurers have always disrupted local economies.

It's most noticeable when adventurers just throw golds and platinums around. With no idea what that coin is worth to a villager who might be paid a handful of coppers after a day of hard labour. That's like throwing handfuls of $100 and $1000 bills around. At a dollar store.
"Nah, keep the change, I just needed to buy a candle and I don't want to waste inventory space carrying any low-value coins."
"I offer the barkeep a tip of 1000 gold pieces. Is that enough to help him remember the stranger's name?"

It's less noticeable in the big cities. Where adventurers are a market which supports all sorts of special goods and services. The sorts of things ordinary folk could never afford. Custom armours at 5000gp, custom crossbows at 500gp, special spellbook supplies at 100gp per page, 1000gp pinches of gem dust for casting spells, etc.

And of course thieves, rogues, bards, opportunists love adventurers. They might be unaccomplished meeklings in a small village. They might be brazenly powerful crimelords and syndicates backed up by a small army of guildsmen in large cities.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  23:49:36  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I'm losing the track of the conversation and I think it has to do with how the word "commodity" is being used. D&D has set in its rules that commodities are the basis of barter and have set values in their exchange for coin values. "A commodity, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself. Wheat, flour, cloth, and valuable metals are commodities, and merchants often trade in them directly without using currency." Can we please use "Specie" when talking about the value of precious metal in the coins? That would make it easier since there are many aspects for how value is derived when talking about coinage.

While the notions of inflation were brought up regarding adventurers just throwing money around in a way that greatly increases the amount of cash in an area with no proportional increase in the amount of products and labor, Delnyn asked the far more nuanced question of what would happen when a minter's source authority has a catastrophe. PC induced economic disruptions can be easily handled by the GM by raising prices with the justification being "you're throwing around money like it's nothing so the people are treating your money the same way - like it's nothing." The basis is still the Law of Supply & Demand as everyone who has gone to public school should have been taught. The supply has not changed but the demand, in the form of excessive spending PCs and the buying activity that swirls in the NPCs around them, has gone up - ergo, the prices will go up.

The example of Zhentil Keep, on the other hand, is a setting disruption that has greater forces in play and greater effects. Zhentil Keep was sacked, but what does that mean for the economic power that Zhent coins carry? Immediately with the news there would be a dip in the value of the coins, but how much is a matter for the people considering the trading strength that Zhentil Keep can still employ, how much of its economy was damaged, and with what innovations its industries can be rebuilt, and how quickly can the turnaround happen? Were the forces that crushed the institutions of Zhentil Keep systematic in dismantling the civic works like what the Visigoths did to Rome in the 5th century AD or engage in slaughtering the citizens like the Spanish mercenaries did to Antwerp in the 15th century AD? Large losses of labor through depopulation or emigration proportionately diminish economic potential and would be viewed as negatively impacting the economic recovery & revaluation of the currency.

Of course, these things are not "sexy" to the writers/developers and likely not to show up at all in game supplements.

There are a number of coins that were called out by FR canon as having diminishing values outside of their locales with Waterdeep having two coins that I can recall - the electrum Harbor Moon and the brass Taol. The reason for those coins having significant losses of value outside that city-state is because they were fiat currencies used by the government to help with rebuilding the city when Waterdeep lacked the precious metals to produce the necessary specie currency. I have taken issue with the description of such extremes in lost value for what is a major economy center in the setting because money changers would make a many-fold profit repatriating "worthless" foreign fiat currencies. The other currencies had what I considered a more reasonable drop off in value equating to diminished trading power & market representation.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7315 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  00:24:25  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Value" fluctuates uncontrollably when affluent adventurers start throwing coin around, a dragon's hoard is captured, a rival nation's treasury has been taken.

But these disruptions usually don't last for long. The adventurers run out of money, wander somewhere else, or get robbed, maybe get killed. The dragon's hoard gets spent. The rival nation's treasury gets melted down and re-minted.

The real "value" of the "commodity" is the price it can fetch anywhere, any time there's a "stable" economy. People want those gold coins because they can spend them anywhere. The coins are worth "one gold" each because they're each made from a chunk of gold with a certain commonly standardized weight.

Those Harbour Moon coins (worth 2ep each within Waterdeep, 1ep each outside Waterdeep) are probably 1ep weight of electrum when valued as raw commodity, they're worth more in Waterdeep because it allows Waterdeep's mint to double the value of its money and to keep almost all of that money circulating under its control. Waterdeep - the state, the people, the banks, the merchants - will honour the full 2ep "representative" value of those moon coins within their city walls. Foreign merchants would prefer other electrum coinages (which retains full value everywhere) but are probably forced to pay taxes and conversion rates which discourage using those coins (makes trading them around more costly, less profitable) within Waterdeep. If foreigns want to do business in Waterdeep then they either convert their currency (because they plan to stick around for a while) or they accept a loss on their foreign currency (because they won't be around long enough or won't spend enough) - either way the economy in Waterdeep stays more "stable" and the citizens of Waterdeep prosper without disruption.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
169 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  06:49:05  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arggh! Being a DM isn't fun enough!? Now you want us to be money-changers?? I kinda thought folks came to the FR to GET AWAY from the Real World.
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  06:55:30  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

quote:
Ayrik brought up an extremely valid point about the value of a coin being measured by commodity (substance) rather than representation. Let us use Zhentil Keep as an example. Zhentish coins may have some market value around the Moonsea region and other areas especially in Western Heartlands where the Black Network holds sway. Scribes, please chime in on this last claim.


My apologies in advance for getting a little in the weeds here, but I think digging into a part of that statement and clarifying will help avoid confusion moving forward.

quote:
...value of coin being measured by commodity (substance) rather than representation.


What I really think is being discussed here is an issue in economics referred to as purchase price parity (PPP). PPP is the currency value differential for the same basket of goods, i.e. an orange, 6 pack of 90 minute Dog Fish IPA beer, and beef jerkey in the U.S. may be 'x', but when accounting for the different value of the German Mark, that same 'x' will now be perhaps, 59% (hypothetical and randomly selected percentage there) more expensive. So, the question then becomes, what in a medieval economy could facilitate a more consistent valuation to specie?

The problem with commodities and specie of the medieval times, is the lack of consistency in the valuation of 'x' so that it could maintain a more consistent value. A hard currency, as opposed to a fiat currency, would allow for the value of something to be predicated purely on what was backing it, i.e. gold, platinum, silver. However, hard currency was not well managed back in those days, due to governmental systems such as the manorial system or a fiefdom. Herein lies an important distinction which is that a manor is merely a landed estate, meant to produce revenue. The fiefdom had conditions associated with its grant, which was often military in nature. The split loyalties of a fief, reduced its efficacy by a significant amount.

The manor had a consistency to its operations, and brought therefore, more consistency to the value of its products. The fiefdom did too, but not as much.

However, local landed estates especially, had an ability to in a microcosm, manage there money in such a manner as to bring confidence that 'x' volume of 'y'product would be available to the market, efficiently. That strengthened the value of specie that might be stamped by 'z' lord. That stamp carried confidence with it because people knew that 'x' volume of 'y' product would be available to the market, efficiently.

So, to conclude my point regarding "...the value of a coin being measured by commodity (substance) rather than representation" it depends on the system of governance, leeway that higher station nobility give lower station nobility to manage their financial affairs, and how successfully they worked with other manors and fiefs.

Of course, medieval times were preposterously inefficient for a plethora of reasons, but suffice to say, there is a lot going on when considering commodities, and specie.

quote:
The problem is what happened to the coin values when Zhentil Keep was sacked not once, but twice? If you say value by commodity, there is no problem unless some miners strike an enormous vein and flood the market. If you say value by representation, then the value basically vanishes.


Well, predicated on the idea of PPP as a means to understand the difference in specie so that consistency can be attained in transcations, the coin values would not have gone down unless coins of Zhent nature had a particular value with other trading partners. Coin/specie, is fungible. At the end of the day, a Waterdeep Harbormoon is worth 50GP there, but I know a lot less far away, due to the fact that the economic and political reach of Waterdeep let's say down in Athkatla, may not be enough to maintain the Harbormoon value, but in Longsaddle it is perhaps.

At the end of the day, 5 lbs of gold is 5 lbs of gold, unless you can utilize that inflated specie value of a Harbormoon in Waterdeep to get goods for a better price.

quote:
Furthermore, what happens to local or even regional economies when adventurers schlep in a dragon's treasure hoard? Balagos probably has as much wealth as any city in Amn short of Athkatla. Scribes, again chime in on the correctness of this claim. Truth be told, I have not worked out the full ramifications of this situation, other than the adventurers need to watch their pockets, the fine print on contracts and their throats as they sleep.


This brings up all manner of interesting issues. In fact, an interesting, and relevant, tale of an African monarch named Musa, comes to mind. He replaced Abu-Bakr II in the early 1300's. His wealth was so massive, that it when adjusted for inflation exceeds even Jeff Bezos' wealth today. He was the monarch of the Mali Empire. When going through Cairo, he was eventually manipulated to meet the sultan (which he didn't want to do). As he eventually left Cairo, he left behind an enormous amount of gold in order to screw up the economy. It did, and it took about 15 to 20 years for the economy to recover, because the influx of specie (fungible though it may be) overwhelmed the sustainable value of specie predicated on production locally.

The point I am getting at is that some monarchs have been burned in the Forgotten Realms, for sure. However, at some point, even did get burned hot enough to where other policy makers had to think it through and some now nations make smart decisions related to those issues.

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  07:31:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,

quote:
I would have to say it is by commodity because adventurers are going into dungeons and getting old coins that are still worth something even if the empire that made the coin is no longer around ("Oh, that is an old gold piece from Cortyn so it is worthless. It is pretty though.").


The fungibility of specie will ultimately allow for the sheer volume of said hard currency to bring a more competitive price though. 1000 lbs of gold is a 1000 lbs of gold. As long as you are not purchasing products from an inflated and controlled specie mint, i.e. Waterdeep, then you would be able to get market value for that specie after melting it down.

If no one cares about ancient specie from Netheril, it still has its intrinsic value at market.

quote:
As for getting a large amount of coinage, I would say it depends on where you go to spend it. If you are in one of the really rich cities, you could just "invest" it in a couple property purchases and not crash the local economy.


I feel that the notion that specie could be transactionally invested into the economy without involvement from the government, is unlikely. Cormyr for example has an issue with this, in canon:

quote:
The use of foreign currency is frowned upon. Cormyreans should use their own kingdom#146;s coin and not rely on the currency of other, perhaps lesser, kingdoms. Introducing foreign money is a subtle way of infiltration, giving the other kingdom a role in Cormyr's daily life. This should not be tolerated, and visitors who arrive in Cormyr are quickly instructed by business owners to convert their currency to Cormyte coinage. (Cormyr, 1994, p37)


Smart countries (certainly there will be fools once at least) will and do, implement monetary policy. The reason being is that if a flood of specie hits the economy, it will negatively impact fiscal policy at a national level, and cause fungible melting of hard currency, allowing for a secondary money market to open up and undermine local control. Messy stuff, especially in medieval socities.

quote:
Otherwise, you would need to hold on to it via Hardbuckler or the Church of Waukeen (they offer money lending and I am sure they won't mind operating as a bank/investment house for anyone suddenly rich--for a fee/donation, of course).


Assuming a Church of Waukeen is in the area, it would certainly be compelled by the government to not undermine monetary and fiscal policy. This is based on historical occurrences that have led to the church being watched much more:

quote:
Waukeenar are not above manipulating trade by means of rumors, buy-ups, hired border brigands, and the like, but strong public criticism of such unsubtle tactics in the past has led the church to officially
deny undertaking such things—and to order its priests to do such work only with the greatest subtlety, so that no one who suspects their hands at work will be able to prove anything. (Faiths & Avatars, p178)


As always, I hope my response came across as intended: academically thoughtful, with a desire to discuss further.

Best regards,








Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  15:36:09  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

... Those Harbour Moon coins (worth 2ep each within Waterdeep, 1ep each outside Waterdeep) are probably 1ep weight of electrum when valued as raw commodity, they're worth more in Waterdeep because it allows Waterdeep's mint to double the value of its money and to keep almost all of that money circulating under its control. Waterdeep - the state, the people, the banks, the merchants - will honour the full 2ep "representative" value of those moon coins within their city walls. Foreign merchants would prefer other electrum coinages (which retains full value everywhere) but are probably forced to pay taxes and conversion rates which discourage using those coins (makes trading them around more costly, less profitable) within Waterdeep. If foreigns want to do business in Waterdeep then they either convert their currency (because they plan to stick around for a while) or they accept a loss on their foreign currency (because they won't be around long enough or won't spend enough) - either way the economy in Waterdeep stays more "stable" and the citizens of Waterdeep prosper without disruption.

Counterpoint: Waterdeep has extensive trade with almost the entirety of Western Faerun as direct trading partners. Frequent business visitors to Waterdeep and those whom have frequent contact with the travelers to or from Waterdeep have a vested interest in honoring the coins of Waterdeep. That city-state has been an economic powerhouse for centuries with a sizable percentage of the Sword Coast's wealth passing through its ports and the North's wealth passing through its gates. That economic clout at the very least should carry as far as the next stable nation's borders where there is an abundance of specie coins being minted like Cormyr and Amn. Waterdeep's fiat currency is fully backed by the waterdhavian government so there should be more than just the merchants inside of its walls that honor the value of the coins. It's not Venezuela with a failed economy, lack of production, brain-drain of innovation, loss of labor, and dearth of political will to fix the problems that has all combined to render its fiat currency worthless in spite of that government's declarations of fixing the value to an oil & mineral reserves-backed digital cryptocurrency. Waterdeep is stable and has survived some of the worst catastrophes that have affected the FR. There are always caravans and fleets heading to & fro the "Jewel of the North" carrying hundreds of thousands of people seeking their fortune in the city every year. This economic standing is further elevated by Waterdeep's association with the Lord's Alliance with those member states having significant reasons to honor the fiat coins of arguably its strongest member. I would even go so far as to say these coins should be honored at full value as far as the money-changers in Calimport given the long history of trade & political relations between Waterdeep and Calimshan.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34225 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  19:07:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

... Those Harbour Moon coins (worth 2ep each within Waterdeep, 1ep each outside Waterdeep) are probably 1ep weight of electrum when valued as raw commodity, they're worth more in Waterdeep because it allows Waterdeep's mint to double the value of its money and to keep almost all of that money circulating under its control. Waterdeep - the state, the people, the banks, the merchants - will honour the full 2ep "representative" value of those moon coins within their city walls. Foreign merchants would prefer other electrum coinages (which retains full value everywhere) but are probably forced to pay taxes and conversion rates which discourage using those coins (makes trading them around more costly, less profitable) within Waterdeep. If foreigns want to do business in Waterdeep then they either convert their currency (because they plan to stick around for a while) or they accept a loss on their foreign currency (because they won't be around long enough or won't spend enough) - either way the economy in Waterdeep stays more "stable" and the citizens of Waterdeep prosper without disruption.

Counterpoint: Waterdeep has extensive trade with almost the entirety of Western Faerun as direct trading partners. Frequent business visitors to Waterdeep and those whom have frequent contact with the travelers to or from Waterdeep have a vested interest in honoring the coins of Waterdeep. That city-state has been an economic powerhouse for centuries with a sizable percentage of the Sword Coast's wealth passing through its ports and the North's wealth passing through its gates. That economic clout at the very least should carry as far as the next stable nation's borders where there is an abundance of specie coins being minted like Cormyr and Amn. Waterdeep's fiat currency is fully backed by the waterdhavian government so there should be more than just the merchants inside of its walls that honor the value of the coins. It's not Venezuela with a failed economy, lack of production, brain-drain of innovation, loss of labor, and dearth of political will to fix the problems that has all combined to render its fiat currency worthless in spite of that government's declarations of fixing the value to an oil & mineral reserves-backed digital cryptocurrency. Waterdeep is stable and has survived some of the worst catastrophes that have affected the FR. There are always caravans and fleets heading to & fro the "Jewel of the North" carrying hundreds of thousands of people seeking their fortune in the city every year. This economic standing is further elevated by Waterdeep's association with the Lord's Alliance with those member states having significant reasons to honor the fiat coins of arguably its strongest member. I would even go so far as to say these coins should be honored at full value as far as the money-changers in Calimport given the long history of trade & political relations between Waterdeep and Calimshan.



I wouldn't go as far as having non-Waterdhavian money-changers giving full Waterdeep value for the Waterdeep-specific coins, but I can see them giving something more than the default spending value for them. Maybe 1.5 ep, instead of the Waterdhavian value or the local value. Even if the money-changer in question does a lot of business with Waterdhavians, he's going to still be looking to make a profit.

But that's just my thinking. An economic and trade specialist I am not.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Nov 2020 19:08:32
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000