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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2020 :  20:24:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Finished Pools of Darkness, decided to reward myself with a nice big project.

Now that Rime of the Frost Maiden is out there is a whole host of new material available for Icewind Dale that unfortunately has had no effort made to build it into the existing lore, so thats what i'm going to try and do.


The first thing however is my big bugbear with the Dwarven Valley. How many novels and sourcebooks and still no official name.
So how about Valladrul. Vall for valley, dru for mountain, and ul for the people, roughly translating "Mountain Valley of the People".

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 15 Oct 2020 :  21:27:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd go a different direction, myself. Dawaerfen Valley, perhaps, named for some ancient something or other -- but corrupted over time by the locals to "Dwarven" Valley. This adds to the existing canon and makes it work better, without actually changing anything, and it follows a pattern of real-world linguistic shifts.

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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

201 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  07:19:11  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who are the most ancient peoples to inhabit the region? Was it further south in the Days of Thunder?

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  07:29:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rather than condoning RAS' atrocious naming convention how about explaining it as a natural evolution of language.

So Valladrul is the dwarven name.
The Reghed barbarians inherited the words Drul meaning dwarf and Valla meaning valley (which was likely inherited by other humans elsewhere given its similarity to valley).

The humans from elsewhere arrive more recently and bring the common tongue.

They translate Valla as Valley and Drul as dwarf and we end up with Dwarven Valley

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 16 Oct 2020 08:10:22
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Gary Dallison
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5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  08:12:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the days of thunder I reckon it was just too cold for sarrukh and batrachi and aearee. Giants almost certainly held away here and probably dragons but that's several millennia later.

I'll keep an eye out for ancient stuff but I'm not sure I'll find anything.

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sleyvas
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USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  11:36:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

As for the days of thunder I reckon it was just too cold for sarrukh and batrachi and aearee. Giants almost certainly held away here and probably dragons but that's several millennia later.

I'll keep an eye out for ancient stuff but I'm not sure I'll find anything.



Why aearee? We really have no idea what they looked like, and winged creatures like birds live in the cold. There are some hints that they may have had ties to some draconic beings, but then again that may have been AFTER their nesting aviaries were invaded by dragons.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  13:13:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I find evidence of aearee descendants or ancient avian humanoid ruins then I'll include them but I've not seen anything so far.

Interestingly enough I read through Legavy of the Crystal Shard and there are significant elements of that module copied over to Rime of the Frost Maiden, but in Legacy of the Crystal Shard the Chardalyn stuff was just called Black Ice. I guess the name wasnt catchy or interesting enough and they made the mistake of naming it Chardalyn in a later edition.


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Ayrik
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Canada
7303 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  13:34:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It probably has different names to different people. Only local dwarves (and perhaps elves) are likely to remember the old dwarven stronghold name(s). Barbarians will just call it whatever they like, probably naming the place based on some distinct landmark feature. Orcs might give it a name which translates into some variation of "killing ground". Giants might call it Frosthall (or Frosthalle, if you prefer something Germanic, lol). Volo's maps might just remark "rumoured location of abandoned dwarven ruins".

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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34137 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  15:09:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

As for the days of thunder I reckon it was just too cold for sarrukh and batrachi and aearee. Giants almost certainly held away here and probably dragons but that's several millennia later.

I'll keep an eye out for ancient stuff but I'm not sure I'll find anything.



Why aearee? We really have no idea what they looked like, and winged creatures like birds live in the cold. There are some hints that they may have had ties to some draconic beings, but then again that may have been AFTER their nesting aviaries were invaded by dragons.



And for a magically powerful folk like the sarrukh, dealing with the cold would have been trivial.

...Not that I see a reason for them to be here; I'm just saying the cold isn't a good reason to rule it out.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  15:34:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True but it has been used as a reason in the past as to why their influence has not extended north of the Thaymount (I vaguely recall George using it once and it works for me).

A small enclave is not inconceivable however, it just depends on if there are any indications of sarrukh or their servitors or descendants.

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Lord Karsus
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USA
3449 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  17:01:30  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Yeah, I assume that "Dwarven Valley" is just what the humans of the area (who, if I am remembering correctly, are kind of...more country than cosmopolitan, given the area). I would assume that Dwarves have their own separate name for it, in their own language. Surprised, given all of the focus on the area over the years in novels, adventures, sourcebooks, and everything else, than an actual, official Dwarven name was never mentioned.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  17:54:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since Bremen was supposedly founded by dwarven prospectors I tried to come up with a dwarven origin for the name of Bremen.

So Barammyn (meaning Shield of Truth) was established as a trade meet between the dwarves of Icewind Dale and Ironmaster around 1200 DR (before the humans arrived because the Crystal Shard book says the dwarves settled in Icewind Dale first, even though Caer Dinevs history somewhat contradicts that).

Then the humans fleeing the fall of illusk arrive and establish some settlements and also settle in the trademeet (which was only occupied by dwarves during High Summer on good weather years).

When the dwarves come out to trade with ironmaster they find the humans (this is where the humans learn the name of Barammyn and corrupt it to Bremen). Over time the dwarves keep coming to Bremen and a few even stay and live here, with a tradition of them being the Speaker of Bremen.


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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 16 Oct 2020 17:56:08
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  20:34:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Crystal Shard details Icingdeath the dragon as not having emerged from his lair in at least 50 years.

I figure he must have at once been active in the realms, but currently the lands of Icewind Dale are claimed by Arauthator.

Reading Arauthator's entry it says the dragon has defended his territory for almost a century (according to some sage in 1354 DR). That means Icingdeath could have been active around 1254 DR (i figure before that date allowing a few years of his absence to allow other wyrms to assume he was dead).

So looking in the roll of years i find 1243 DR to have a fitting name for a dragon trapped in the ice (Year of the Blue Dragon).


Now all i need to do is figure out where the dragon got that magic sword from.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2020 :  20:52:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just noticed Illusk fell in 1244 DR after a 9 year siege. What if Icingdeath's emergence in 1243 DR included attacking the besieged Illusk (scattering the attackers and slaughterig the human defenders) and making off with some of its treasures, including the weapon Icingdeath.

The damage done to the city allow the reformed orcs to conquer the city the following spring (because even armies take a break for the winter)

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2020 :  11:31:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dinev founding of castle Dinev is a problem for the lore of icewind dale.

The Crystal Shard novel was quite clear that the Reghed Barbarians are first and they arrived around -2100 DR.

Then the dwarves came next after 1172 DR and the fall of Mithril Hall.

Then came the Ten Towns but I presume it was a staggered creation of settlements with each wave founding a new town and Easthaven was the last I think.

The Legacy of the Crystal Shard and Rime of the Frost Maiden ignore the above events by having the Dinev family build a a fort in 1050 DR.

This is before the dwarves even arrive.

So my fix is for that settlement and the settlers to die out before the dwarves arrive.

The story goes that the Dinevs found the castle, a settlement grows around it (a bitt far fetched in such an isolated region but I'll assume the Dinevs led a wagon train of people here in search of riches.

Orcs take the castle a few years later and then a few years after that the people of the ten towns (a mistake because the ten towns didn't exist then, so ill assume it is the cormyrean settlers only) band together and defeat the orcs.

This is all before 1100 DR, so I'm thinking that either the settlement slowly dwindles because life is really harsh here and without trade there is no chance of survival in the long term. The alternative is that the barbarians raid this place or perhaps both a dwindling population and barbarian raids results in the cormyrean being wiped out.

1172 the dwarves arrive, and they survive by trading with ironmaster.

The ten towns doesnt begin properly until the siege of illusk in 1235 DR when some people flee north because they have no other direction to go.

This group of humans survives because the dwarves are already here and trade is coming in from ironmaster and later Luskan when it is refounded.

As time goes on other waves of accidental migration happen, a slave ship from chult crashes and the survivors wander north, the remains of a ffolk fleet and northmen pursuers land here and resettle castle dinev (renaming it caer). The northmen settle at Konig (related to the northmen word Kong for King) and together the ffolk and northmen build another castle here.

Not sure about the Moonsea miners, that seems quite a long way to migrate so I'm guessing magic is involved. Perhaps slave miners for Zhentil Keep using magic to get them to get ore from the Galenas and it goes wrong perhaps.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2020 :  20:48:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quite surprised at how little the Crystal Shard has to do with Rime of the Frost Maiden.

It was a big part of the Legacy of the Crystal Shard and it would seem that the Black Ice originally spread from the Crystal Shard itself (not some corruption due to the sundering or Auril, etc).


I'm still intent upon redoing the origin of Crenshinibon.
I had a quick research of House Vyshaan and it seems they wanted to weaponise Mythals.
Crenshenibon was able to create large numbers of these black obelisks that shoot laser beams, which is one hell of a defence mechanism. In Zakhara it was used to create hundreds of these obelisks so it can or used to be able to create huge numbers of them either it was damaged in the past or its recent circumstances meant it could not create more than one without becoming near useless.


So i'm thinking, one of the Vyshaan lords tried to create this mythal weapon (i'm calling it Crysharael meaning Crystal Heart). He was assisted by Errtu (who at the time was working on behalf of Malkizid, and probably disguised) and 6 selu'kiira of past Vyshaan lords.

The creation goes wrong and the crystal heart shatters. Crenshinibon is the largest such fragment but there can be many others. The Crystal Heart absorbed the power and sentience of the Vyshaan Lord and the Selu'Kiira as well as a big chunk of Errtu's power (thats why he wants it back). It became sentient and shattered itself to escape its confines and allow itself to begin conquering the world.

Like the Vyshaan it wants to conquer everything, it has a special hatred of dark elves. It is in Zakhara 2000 years ago, also in Menzoberranzan about a century ago. Any other mentions and it being scattered across the planes could be explained by another shard of the Crysharael and not Crenshinibon.

Crenshinibon is a demonic corruption of elven and roughly translates as the sun's discarded heart-tree. It draws its power directly from the Weave (which most magic items do), but this item can draw magic to it in huge quantities. In the Spine of the World the Weave is weaker (fewer Weave anchors nearby) so it is naturally weakened. Life and Magic are synonymous according to Ed and all Life is empowered by the sun so it draws extra energy from the sun if there is nothing else left. Thats why it was defeated by darkness in the novels. Wouldnt normally affect it in areas where the Weave is strong.

Because part of Errtu is within the shard, that means the Black Ice infected creatures that rampage across Icewind Dale in Legacy of the Crystal Shard are behaving like demons because of Errtu's influence.


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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2020 :  21:45:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So easthaven founded by settlers from Cape velen driven out by a powerful thieves guild. Having just researched the shadow thieves I know they are in amn around 1300 DR and then spread into tethyr.

Easthaven is also the most frontier of the ten towns, implying it is the most recent which fits if caer dineval and caer konig are most recently settled in 1278 by ships from the moonshae isles.

I'll take an educated guess at 1320 ish, the original thieves guild in Cape velen is driven out by the shadow thieves and they flee to icewind dale because anywhere else and the shadow thieves would find them.

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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte

Spain
48 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  10:29:07  Show Profile Send Mrestos Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think tis a bit heavy having people migrating from Tethyr to Icewind dale... Isn't too far away and too cold for them?
About the dwarven dale, when they came, they were exiled, and bitter about it. It was only seen as a temporal refuge, not as a new clan hall. So maybe the dwarves deliberately didn't name it. Maybe in dwar religion if you name a place, you're a giving it an especial significance.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  10:59:14  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding the migration, yes it is strange that a group would deliberately choose to migrate to Icewind Dale, but if this group were forced out of Cape Velen by the Shadow Thieves then it is already noted that the Shadow Thieves try to absorb rival groups, if they cant then they eliminate the rivals entirely.

So its likely that many of the group spread out all over the place, and were hunted down and killed. I'm thinking they fled to Icewind Dale because it was so far away and almost unreachable so it would be the one place they could survive.

Its a bit of a stretch but unfortunately this is RAS lore and 5e lore that i'm trying to reconcile and both are very heavy handed and often stretch the limits of believability.


The group from Tethyr is not so problematic as a group from Sembia, Cormyr, or the Moonsea though. I can't imagine how or why anyone from those innersea lands would have even heard of Icewind Dale, let alone try and travel thousands of miles across deserts and arctic mountain ranges in order to reach the middle of nowhere.


It think i will need to invent a few legends about Icewind Dale in order to draw people to it in search of fame and fortune, but they would have to be recently discovered legends (1000 DR onwards). Perhaps someone uncovered a last known location of the netheril enclave in Icewind Dale and so a few treasure seekers go looking.






Regarding the dwarves, admittedly i don't know much about them as a race beyond Dwarves Deep, but they seem an eminently practical people, and not giving their home a name would cause problems. Also their exile is not one imposed out of shame, dwarves being forced out of their homeland due to conquests by goblinoids or demons is fairly common in the history of Faerun, and each time they give their new homeland a name. Besilmer, Delzoun, Ammarindar, Bhaerynden, Sarphil, Shanatar, they have all fallen to enemies and their people fled in exile to new homelands.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5318 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  21:11:00  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Came across Dungeon 220.

Thruun, some kind of big hairy, blind, wolf, ape demon (explodes into spectral fire when slain) is summoned by a sacrifice of 20 severed hands left at the Twenty Stone of Thruun outside Dougan's Hole.

I figure this is some kind of ancient stone circle and so someone must have bound this Thruun creature there a while ago.




What i'm wondering though is what kind of creature is Thruun. Apart from his description the biggest clue is the severed hands, i figure that could be an important clue.

Has anyone ever come across any creature in D&D or real mythology that collects severed hands?

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2020 :  21:47:10  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

That is very disheartening to read. So, is it your opinion that they are just ignoring the past in the hopes they can just build a new future of lore?

Best regards,



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Gary Dallison
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5318 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2020 :  21:52:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Went through the Accursed Tower adventure, found some interesting bits in there.

Mituki, a legendary hero of the fox and sky. I think i will make him a leader of a now vanished tribe called the Tribe of the Hoar Fox.


Read about the Great Thaw which happened about a century ago (FR wiki lists Damien Morienus heading to Icewind Dale in 1369 DR, but the Accursed Tower adventure only says about a century ago).

Apparently Damien Morienus (an master of one of the towers of the Arcane Brotherhood) fled to Icewind Dale to become a lich. His wife ran off with Kinnuki (leader of the Tribe of the Hoar Fox) and so Damien sent some demons to kill them all.

The demons melted the snow to find Kinnuki and his new wife. This caused the Great Thaw which melted the permafrost and caused an Ice Floe to collapse (presumably on the Sea of Moving Ice) killing Kinnuki's tribe. Damien's tower also sank into the mud.


I figure a thaw like that which could melt the permafrost around Bremen and cause Ice Floes to collapse a hundred miles away must be fairly huge, and so would have an effect on nearby regions.

So what if the Great Thaw allowed the orcs to multiply to huge numbers causing the Black Horde in 1235 DR which in turn led to Illusk being abandoned and a number of the survivors heading north to Icewind Dale.

What if the Great Thaw also awoke Icingdeath, leading to a decade of rampages before the climate reset itself and sealed her in her lair during one winter.


So i was thinking the Great Thaw happens in 1233 DR the Year of Many Monsters. That doesnt give much time for the orcs to be full grown but my understanding of orc hordes is not the number of adults that cause a horde its the total population. Even the chiefs can roughly estimate that there are too many mouths to feed so they encourage the other adult orcs to go off and take a castle knowing that in 10-15 years they will have huge armies again.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1738 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2020 :  09:22:39  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

Nice thought process on the time frame there. There is nothing relating to a single bit of information that gives the year, but your suppositions are sound.

Best regards,




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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 26 Oct 2020 :  21:15:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Up to Mituki in the Accursed Tower.

Supposedly a huge oak tree, which is described as 60 ft tall, which is actually less than average height for an oak tree, i can only assume he means 60 metres.

The story goes that Damien made his tower in a place of natural power, moulding it out of great stone spires that were already there (and used by local druids apparently).

It makes no mention of the tree in that choice. Also the moulding of the tower out of the stone spires sounds a bit like the creation of the hosttower of the arcane.

I'm wondering if Damien Morienus chose this place for its natural power, but perhaps he planted the tree, like a cutting from the original hosttower arakhor.


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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 26 Oct 2020 :  21:47:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Up to Mituki in the Accursed Tower.

Supposedly a huge oak tree, which is described as 60 ft tall, which is actually less than average height for an oak tree, i can only assume he means 60 metres.




https://sciencing.com/tall-do-oak-trees-grow-5297428.html

Oak trees grow around the world and are very common in the United States. They’re not known for height like the Redwoods in California, but they can grow to an impressive size. Oak trees come in many different varieties that can grow to different heights from only forty feet at full size to one hundred.

Then said page goes into the different varieties of oak, some of which top out at like 75 or less at maximum.

This caught my eye as I was recently looking up tree heights in VGtatM to include in the Adusgee Forest in Anchorome and I wanted an area that I am calling "The Great Timberspires" to have redwood=like trees. I found that no trees in VGtatM resemble redwoods in height except possibly duskwood, shadowtops and weirwoods (and duskwood and shadowtops both only have branches at the very tip top of the tree). So, I'm creating a new tree for Anchorome just for the "Great Timberspires" that I'm calling "Goliath Wintergreens"... as I didn't want to call them giant sequoias as that's an indian name, and I didn't want to call them "redwoods" since the wood itself isn't "red". I may also want to give them some specialness that's not the same as our world's redwoods (and I literally just learned that redwoods and giant sequoias aren't the same thing in the past 2 days). Redwoods/sequoias apparently can grow at max to 200 to 370 feet in height and can be 20 feet or more in diameter (some exceeding 300 feet in diameter)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Oct 2020 22:02:01
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Oct 2020 :  22:13:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does it say that the "huge" measurement is the height? It could have had an unusually wide circumference, and qualified as "huge" that way.

Or it could have simply been that it was much taller than the surrounding trees. Sixty feet is huge if it's twice the size of everything around it.

Also, one of the women I work with tells me that men tend to exaggerate some measurements, so...

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Oct 2020 22:34:43
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