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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  11:00:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
While i slog through all the canon stuff for Cormyr, thought i would work on something a bit more creative at the same time, so its off to Jhaamdath.

Now i figure that the people of Jhaamdath once roamed the Shining Plains, the Dragon Coast and the Arnaden as nomadic tribesmen, probably pushed out by Calimshan.

Now the idea is that they are being fought over by several super powers in the region. Dragons as always want to use humans as pets to lord it over and to look after them while they sleep and a by product of this is that the humans gain civilisation. The illithids of Oryndoll want to keep the humans fighting amongst themselves and rooted firmly in uncultured barbarism.

Around the time of Jhaamdath's beginning we have a gem dragon that comes to be known as Auppenser, who has been seeding the nomads with his own genes and trying to elevate them beyond their nomadic roots. He has a series of successes that are squashed by illithid manipulation.

Then comes Jhaam, a powerful warrior and leader of a tribe that is blessed many times with Auppenser's bloodline and so possess some innate magical abilities (i don't distinguish between magic and psionics).

Normally Jhaam and his fledgling civilisation would fall to infighting under illithid manipulation, but then appears a second super individual, Laszik Silvermind.

Laszik was blessed with incredibly powerful magical abilities (focusing on mind magic), he appeared amid the Deepwing Mountains around -5800 DR, and was picked up by Auppenser and trained for the purpose of shepherding the people of Jhaam and fending off illithid influence.

However, Laszik betrayed Auppenser and stole the items that would ultimately become Udoxia, using them to ward off the illithids and the gem dragon seeking his revenge.

The Udoxia were actually dragon eggs that Laszik nourished by casting spells into them (making them a powerful spell pool) that delayed their hatching for thousands of years. These foetal dragons communicated with the psiarchs in each of Jhaamdath's cities and their whisperings were the foundations for many of the deities of Jhaamdath.


So Murdane was a dragon egg that whispered to her followers and pretended to be a god, as was Helm, and Lliira.
Jhaamdath also acquired worship of Iltyr the All Seeing from the shaaran nomads it relocated to act as a buffer around the Lake of Steam lands. These nomads merged their own animal spirit worship with beholder symbology to make Iltyr look like a floating eye with a tail. Ahorz was a Turami ancestor spirit of vengeance that the Jhaamdathi adopted when they absorbed these people.

Valigorn Thirdborn i'm going to branch off in a different direction than just another god or a dragon egg. I figure he was one of the military generals that used one of the Udoxia to undergo a transformation and become more powerful, he performed this transformation a total of three times, becoming a quasi deity of sorts (a being of godlike power). He fled to Turmish when the tsunami struck and was slain by Grimjaws the Planetyr.



Just a few ideas to develop later.

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sleyvas
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USA
9896 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  13:15:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You kind of had me until the portions where you started on Murdane, Helm, Lliira, Valigan, and Grimjaws and other gods. I can buy the idea that Auppenser is a draconic deity, especially with him having to go to sleep. I'd propose further that he's actually Sardior, master of the Gem Dragons. He is known as a god of the night, psionics (which in the past was considered a magic SEPARATE from the weave.... or a shadow of the weave if you will....), and Secrets . If we assume this to be true, what else can we do?

Well, what do we know of Sardior? There was Sardior and his six Thanes. The sixth thane, Seradess, was an obsidian dragon (obsidian is black as night). Seradess did SOMETHING that made Sardior kick her out of his "pantheon", and noone talks about it. So, that's Sardior and 6 others. Total... Seven. Outside Westgate, there is the Hill of Seven Lost Gods, which dates back to the time of the Reign of Dragons. I propose that this hill is where Sardior and his Thanes ascended to godhood or something similar and left their (possibly primordial) bodies behind.

So, why did Seradess the obsidian dragon get kicked out? Well, let's learn a little more about Sardior and see if we can make things fit. Sardior has a ruby palace that appears as a "small red moon" when it appears in orbit. What other small red orbiting objects do we know about?

From the Wiki on the King Killer Star (also known as the KingSlayer Star apparently)
"The King-Killer Star was a reddish cometary body, visible from Toril, once linked to the Dracorage mythal. Its periodic appearance in the skies of Abeir-Toril caused dragons to go mad with rage, destroying and killing without reason. "

So, we have Torilians theorizing that its a comet, but what if its not. What if the King Killer Star and Sardior's ruby palace are the same thing. It causes madness in dragons, which madness is an effect of the mind like psionics. So, what if the obsidian dragon, Seradess… turned on Sardior and helped the elves long ago. Maybe she did so in order to try and seize his portfolios of night, secrets, and "a shadow of the weave". Maybe even Seradess was played by the elves. Since two deities can't exist in a pantheon with the same portfolios, Sardior casts her from the pantheon, but he loses a bit of himself in the process. The ruby palace is sent careening across planes. This version of Seradess will go on to become a part of the being we know of as Shar SOMEHOW.

At some point afterward, some Githvyrik arrive on Toril and come to assault the mind flayers. They breed with the local humans as well as the gem dragons of the region (whome they have come to regard as allies against the illithids). They are not successful in wiping out the mindflayers, and retreat in isolation. The illithids cast a powerful curse or inflict them with a disease somehow on them that makes their skin burn in the light of day. However, their children will go on to breed what will come to be the Jhaamdathi people.

Later, comes Jhaam the psychic warrior and Laszik Silvermind as you mention. Auppenser (an alias of Sardior) tries to guide these beings, whom he regards as his children. The Udoxias are created from fallen material gathered from the Tearfall millenia ago (possibly even dragon eggs of some of the original gem dragons). Only later do they come to realize that the Udoxias have some ties to the moon somehow.

Later, in an attempt to destroy the King Killer Star, some gem dragons (possibly even Seradess) show up in Westgate and try to harvest the energy of the gods. They fire what we've come to call "the dragon laser", but the ruby palace/king killer star disappears to somewhere else (such as Jazirian's domain) and the blast hits the moon, Selune. I'm going to say that this is around the time that the elves and Shou Lung report new tears appearing and tidal issues, etc.. (something in the -4000's to -5000's... I'd have to look that up in realmspace). They are aided by Jhaamdathi who wanted more material to make more udoxias.

Oh, and possibly mythallars are using some of the same material as udoxias in their creations.

Later, Vhostym, a githvyrik of both powerful arcane and psionic ability, works a bunch of stuff to manipulate a tear of Selune to form "the crown of flame" (it blocks the sun, creating an eclipse of the sun). When this occurs, he dies, and the tear falls from orbit and breaks up, creating the rain of fire that occurs right before a new dracorage starts..... because somehow the "crown of flame" eclipse triggered the return of the ruby palace/king killer star and the reawakening of Auppenser. A dracorage occurs and Mystra's former chosen and founder of the Cult of the Dragon, tries to manipulate the mythal placed upon the king killer star. This effect from long ago (which had been placed by Seradess….an aspect of Shar of some sort... ) is then broken, and Auppenser's ruby palace no longer causes a dracorage...... if its in Toril.

All of this leading into the spellplague and the transitioning of Sardior's ruby palace (aka the king killer star which possibly causes a dracorage) into Abeir. The dragons of Abeir, who had long lorded it over the people of Abeir, go insane and begin killing each other while the transferred mortals of Toril try and make a new life while in Abeir.





Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Mar 2020 13:30:50
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  13:47:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's all a bit too god centric for me. I like things to be people driven (people being anything on the material plane).

I've already made aupp'nsaardr the same being as auppenser and sardior, just merged the names. The people of jhaamdath used warrior, while the tribes of the shining plains used sardior (after the fall of jhaamdath).

A religion and the inspiration behind the deity can become very much separate over time. The beings that whispered into the mind of the psiarchs caused the birth of the religion that solidified into worship of murdane. Overtime however, the priests moved away from handling and communicating with the udoxia and started worshipping this entity they had created called murdane.

When jhaamdath fell, murdanes worship was wiped out except for a few survivors that fled to impiltur, and so the divine idea that was murdane also starved due to lack of worshuo. As an aside I'm also thinking that the surviving jhaamdath warlords used murdanes udoxia to try and fend off the angelic host that invaded. This ultimately killed the unhatched dragon inside.

It's my way of explaining events without making it all depend upon the gods, which I find highly implausible and stifles storytelling.

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  13:51:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and on any link between Seradess and Shar, it should be noted that Seradess is noted by WotC to be dead... so possibly subsumed by Shar after being kicked out of the pantheon.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9896 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  13:59:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

It's all a bit too god centric for me. I like things to be people driven (people being anything on the material plane).

I've already made aupp'nsaardr the same being as auppenser and sardior, just merged the names. The people of jhaamdath used warrior, while the tribes of the shining plains used sardior (after the fall of jhaamdath).

A religion and the inspiration behind the deity can become very much separate over time. The beings that whispered into the mind of the psiarchs caused the birth of the religion that solidified into worship of murdane. Overtime however, the priests moved away from handling and communicating with the udoxia and started worshipping this entity they had created called murdane.

When jhaamdath fell, murdanes worship was wiped out except for a few survivors that fled to impiltur, and so the divine idea that was murdane also starved due to lack of worshuo. As an aside I'm also thinking that the surviving jhaamdath warlords used murdanes udoxia to try and fend off the angelic host that invaded. This ultimately killed the unhatched dragon inside.

It's my way of explaining events without making it all depend upon the gods, which I find highly implausible and stifles storytelling.



You have people becoming gods. I have dragons becoming gods long ago. If you take a moment and don't immediately respond and look at the lore and look at what I'm putting together, I think it links up a lot of disparate lore.

BTW, I don't delve into the Jhaamdath gods. I delve into the gem dragon gods, and I do so in a way that places them as mortals who ascend. The only one I would directly link to Jhaamdath would be Auppenser/Sardior (which we both seem to think work well together). However, I wouldn't be surprised if Murdane were say an ascended gem dragon as well (possibly one of Sardior's thanes).

BTW, I also wouldn't be surprised if these "ascended gem dragons" didn't go through the same process of the dragons of Coliar to become "ghost dragons" or beings of spirit.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9896 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  14:38:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just need to get this rough idea out before it leaves my head.

So, I was talking about the Hill of Seven Lost Gods earlier. Where do we first hear of this? We hear of it in relation to the creation of Alias... I believe... a being whose body is formed of magic and has a portion of the soul of a "saurial" ... a somewhat draconic like being. We also know that other Alias clones were created. Were they all done at the Hill of Seven Lost Gods? I forget Moander's exact involvement with this... what was it? Could he have been stealing essence from the buried "sleeping" draconic beings sleeping/decaying beneath these hills? Were ALL of Alias' sisters created with soul energy from sauroid beings? What do we really know of Alias (and I never read the story where she went I think to the Utter East and can't even recall its name)? Could THESE immortal bodies that are created serve as potential hosts for godly essences if they were for instance sent to Abeir (like the lesser avatars were during the ToT)? Could Midnight/Ariel have been one of these Alias Clones with an implanted memory of her past made up of lies (Ariel / Leira)? I will note that one of the beings involved with the creation of Alias is a weird demonic beholder with mouths instead of eyes on the end of its stalked (The better for telling lies?) named Phalse (OMG... Leira? False/Phalse). Who all was involved with the creation of Alias, and why?

When I look back, I theorized on some of this previously
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20932

So perhaps several of the gods of magic might have been able to use the bodies of an Alias clone, since they all disappeared after the death of Phalse... which was just before the ToT. Do we have any kind of listing of the other Alias clones? The only other one I knew of was in like Turmish I thought and named Cat or somesuch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Mar 2020 15:24:12
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9896 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  14:48:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And possibly the Shaar/Old Empires region was littered with material from orbit (causing the landrise, great rift, etc...) and this is part of what made the Mulan gods want to be there, part of why so many ascendant dragons are from there possibly (if we assume Assuran of the three thunders is also an ascendant dragon, as well as Tchazzar, the Millenium Dragon, "Marduk"/Bahamut, Tiamat, the three dragons that fought to reform Tiamat, possibly Dahak (the three headed dragon spirit of death of Babylonian myth), etc...). It might also be why during the Sundering, portions of said area transferred to Abeir (because it has links to the Tearfall).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  15:25:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, i'm still going to stick with making the udoxia contain beings that would go on to influence the creation of the gods of Jhaamdath (as an idea, no actual ascension takes place).

The Hill of Seven Lost Gods is not a bad idea to place 6 stolen udoxia the military steal a bunch of udoxia when they overthrow Jhaamdath's psiocracy. After the tsunami the remnants of the military warlords flee to Turmish and later become embroiled in a war with Tyr's host. It makes sense for the udoxia (or at least some of them) to be stashed in the most defensible place in the empire, and Turmish is surrounded by mountains and would make an ideal military stronghold.

When Tyr finally kicks butt the warlords could flee and end up burying them on the hill outside Westgate.

But i'm getting ahead of myself here.

First step is to work on exactly how Jhaamdath's society functioned.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  20:05:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Life and society starts off like any other tribal nation - clans that rule in a council and occasionally unite behind a great chief (Jhaam).

Jhaam leads the people from the Shining Plains to the Vilhon and establishes Naarkolyth as a meeting place (sacred ground, no fighting, etc). At this point in time you are either in a clan or you are alone (and therefore very soon to be dead).

Then appears Laszik Silvermind, he gathers people around him, promising safety, freedom, enlightenment, etc. Low ranking members of clans join him and it starts to destabilise Jhaamdath's tribal society.

Eventually, as the largest and most powerful group, Laszik Silvermind and his followers (the Psiarchs) form the Psiocracy and replace the clans and their council as a form of government.

Now you have the main families of the clans becoming the nobility, everyone else is a citizen, and they are all ruled by the Psiarchs.


Later Jhaamdath begins a period of expansion and conquest and encounters foreign humans and creates a second class of citizenry called "The Enlightened". The Code of Auppenser forbids slavery so these humans are rescued from slavery (or potential slavery) at the hands of other less enlightened nations.
The Enlightened have joined Jhaamdath (voluntarily or not) to pursue truth and knowledge. They are protected by the Code of Auppenser, and are given lodgings and work (as farmhands, miners, fishermen, loggers, etc) and the freedom to pursue enlightenment.
It is forbidden for a true citizen to make union (marry or have sex) with one of the Enlightened (it would distract them from Enlightenment), they are however free to make union with other Enlightened (it would be slavery to forbid them the same freedoms allowed to citizens). And the Enlightened are unable to become true citizens until they achieve Enlightenment.

Enlightenment is a path laid out in the Code of Auppenser, a spiritual awakening that few of the Psiarchs have even achieved (Valigorn achieves it twice in his lifetime however), and so the Enlightened are destined to remain as second class citizens forever.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
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Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  21:33:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As there is almost nothing concrete on Jhaamdath i'm colouring massively out of the lines trying to come up with content that isnt just more of the same but unique in Jhaamdath's flavour.

Valigorn thirdborn as just a third god of Jhaamdath was a bit bland so i mixed it up a bit (its a first draft of the idea).

I needed a way to explain how the Psiocracy was overthrown. While its easy to just say the military did it, i'm thinking that a millennia of warfare allowed the military to become very powerful and well respected. Thats not enough to allow it to overthrow a government however, you need people at the top to essentially initiate a civil war. So i figure if more than half the psiocracy were replaced with members that supported the old clans that controlled the military (or were direct members of that family) then that would allow them to nominate an Emperor and do away with the dissenters. I also worked in origins for Elan (which i have meaning "Chosen of" in Chondathan) and perhaps a Maenad too.


Valigorn Thirdborn: During the waning days of the Empire, the most respected Exarch of the Psiocracy of Jhaamdath achieved Enlightenment for a second time; a feat never before achieved in the history of that nation. While his original transformation of Enlightenment (some 300 years earlier) turned Valigorn into a serene and almost prophetic individual, his second Enlightenment turned him into a being enslaved to his emotions.

Valigorn quickly became prone to violent outbursts, and his growing psychic potential eventually resulted in the deaths of three Exarchs (these were replaced by those who supported the military clans of Jhaamdath). Valigorn was dismissed from the Council of Exarchs and the events surrounding his second Enlightenment and his subsequent disappearance (and the disappearance of three other Exarchs) were quickly hushed by the Psiocracy, nonetheless rumours and whispers of Valigorn Thirdborn began to circulate in Naarkolyth and so the official response was that Valigorn had indeed achieved Enlightenment twice and was labelled an abomination and servant of chaos.

Valigorn was imprisoned beneath the Fortress of xxxx in the Granite Grates. He remained in prison until the military forces released him (desperate for a leader) following the Fall of Jhaamdath. Valigorn became renowned and feared as a being of godlike power and evil who stalked the Vilhon Wilds with his forces of chaos. Ultimately lit took the Procession of Justice nine years to defeat Valigorn Thirdborn and his army.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  22:27:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
just to note, Valigan not Valigorn in Jhaamdath.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  08:35:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh yes, I've got Valigan in GHoTR, I shall have to check the spellings in other sources and see if it changes. Ta

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  16:29:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found a few names for geographic locations in and around Jhaamdath.

Nikerymath is the Haunted Forest
the Shining Plains is the Rezamark


A few other things i made up

Dlath can mean People of
Erdath can mean Chieftain

The people of Jhaamdath originally came from the Rezamark, but were cast out for having too many wild talents.

Garagos is a "deity" feared by the people of the Rezamark. Basically the giants of Nedeheim would occasionally come to the Rezamark for slaves and sometimes just to pummel people. The people of the Rezamark imagined all giants as enormous rampaging engines of destruction. over time they started making sacrifices to this imagined giant, his name comes from a corruption of words for Giant and Death.

When the empire of Jhaamdath subjugates the Rezamark and its people, some of the nomads join Jhaamdath and bring the idea of Garagos with them. In subsequent wars the tribes of the Rezamark serve as mercenary cavalry against Calimshan and Unther, they spread worship of Garagos among the soldiers of Jhaamdath (who respect the nomads battle fury).


When Jhaamdath falls, the nomads of the Rezamark keep Garagos and so his worship remains around the Westgate region. Historically the nomads of the Rezamark would travel between the Lake of Dragons and the Lake of Steam (a migration path encompassing the Shining Plains and the Arnaden), so worship of Garagos is also present around the Lake of Steam region.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  16:43:49  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What i have so far

https://alternaterealmsblog.wordpress.com/home/regions/vilhon-reach/jhaamdath/

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
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Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  20:48:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With Garagos though, at least the current being using the name, is in canon at least implied to be the same as the Netherese Targos.

Does it mean Targos started out as Garagos, or did just Targos' and Garagos' faiths merged, or Targos defeated and subsumed the original Garagos?
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  21:46:47  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm dealing primarily with religions at this point, divorcing their evolution and creation entirely from the divine entities that i see as having very little real effect upon the world in the long term.

The worship of Garagos begins in the Shining Plains / Arnaden among the nomadic tribesmen and is therefore entirely separate from the worship Targus which is isolated in the netheril basin.


If i had to include the gods in the picture i would still make them entirely separate and view the association of Garagos and Targus together as a mistake made by modern Faerunian scholars. The two peoples and nations are separated by thousands of miles, do not appear to have had any meaningful contact (and may not have even been aware of each other) and so i cannot see any connection to be made between the two societies or their religions.





When the Faerunian Pantheon was created i see it being created as a result of the Netherese diaspora and the Jhaamdath diaspora.
Around the Westgate area it is clear that Netherese migrants arrived before the fall of Jhaamdath. When Jhaamdath fell we know they fled to Cormyr (either direct to Marsember or to Impiltur and then Suzail). Just before Dalereckoning there is undoubtedly a merging of the people with Chondathan subsuming the Netherese.

When it comes to their gods i think the Netherese largely rejected their faiths because the death of Netheril was a prolonged affair lasting centuries with their society gradually collapsing. If the gods do nothing to save you then why keep them.

Jhaamdath's fall however was very sudden, they were at the peak of their power and then suddenly it was gone, so it could be viewed that the gods saved those who survived.

Thus when Chondathan and Netherese meet, the Netherese are quite happy to take up the worship of the Jhaamdath gods whose priests still existed.

These Chondathans then spread into the Western Heartlands and mingle with the Illuskans and that is where there is a conflict for the religious hearts of the people, with Tempos' followers defeating Garagos' Reavers (and perhaps even an avatar or two being called into the fray).


Thats just how i see it. Mayhaps George, Eric, and Ed will give us the true story at some point.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 31 Mar 2020 21:55:25
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  22:26:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Ahh yes, I've got Valigan in GHoTR, I shall have to check the spellings in other sources and see if it changes. Ta



It may actually have come from me, since my Metahel pantheon I was favored of respinning Faerunian names slightly.


Valigor the Runtborn Giant, Lord of Chaos, Trickster of the Gods, Father of Monsters and Magical Beasts - This trickster god was found by the gods in a giant's cradle after a war between the gods and giants. He was obviously a runt amongst giants, and the Metahel gods decided to adopt him and raise him as one of their own. His antics fill many stories amongst the Metahel, usually involving Thoros having to fight some giant in the end. Once it is said that he stole Sifya's hair out of jealousy, angering Thoros, and ending up with him gaining several gifts for the gods from the dwarves. He is also a shapechanging god, and he himself is rumored to have given birth to the race of noble flying horses known as Asperii when he shapechanged into a giant mare to help the gods trick a lying giant into building their home realm for free. However, he is also rumored to have birthed numerous monsters upon a shape changing giantess known as Lamasgrboda, including Chupocol the Soul Spider, Kezris the Spirit Wolf that will swallow the moon, and Jormungis the Great Sea Serpent. Valigan and Lamasgrboda also birthed Heleshkiga, the blackhearted Queen of the Dead.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
798 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  03:39:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison




If i had to include the gods in the picture i would still make them entirely separate and view the association of Garagos and Targus together as a mistake made by modern Faerunian scholars. The two peoples and nations are separated by thousands of miles, do not appear to have had any meaningful contact (and may not have even been aware of each other) and so i cannot see any connection to be made between the two societies or their religions.





That makes sense, and yeah Targos and Garagos could get confused by Faerunian scholars, due to both being Gods of War eclipsed by Tempus.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

It may actually have come from me, since my Metahel pantheon I was favored of respinning Faerunian names slightly.


Valigor the Runtborn Giant, Lord of Chaos, Trickster of the Gods, Father of Monsters and Magical Beasts - This trickster god was found by the gods in a giant's cradle after a war between the gods and giants. He was obviously a runt amongst giants, and the Metahel gods decided to adopt him and raise him as one of their own. His antics fill many stories amongst the Metahel, usually involving Thoros having to fight some giant in the end. Once it is said that he stole Sifya's hair out of jealousy, angering Thoros, and ending up with him gaining several gifts for the gods from the dwarves. He is also a shapechanging god, and he himself is rumored to have given birth to the race of noble flying horses known as Asperii when he shapechanged into a giant mare to help the gods trick a lying giant into building their home realm for free. However, he is also rumored to have birthed numerous monsters upon a shape changing giantess known as Lamasgrboda, including Chupocol the Soul Spider, Kezris the Spirit Wolf that will swallow the moon, and Jormungis the Great Sea Serpent. Valigan and Lamasgrboda also birthed Heleshkiga, the blackhearted Queen of the Dead.



This is possible, as there is some precedence for Giant influence on Jhaamdathan civilization - Jhaamdathan language was for example probably influenced by Jotun:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jhaamdathan_language
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  20:03:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Come across a passage from GHoTR

quote:
Never shall I forget that bitterly cold morning when I was preaching to the unwashed plebs from a pinnacle overlooking Beansidhe Hill. From over my shoulder, a piercing light suddenly washed over the forum,



Beansidhe Hill, its a curious name and i can't find a location for it on any of my maps. Later on it describes the person writing the piece hiding out in the Wetwoods which are located west of the Orsraun Mountains, so i'm thinking Beansidhe Hill is somewhere in Turmish.

Now sidhe is most often pronounced as shee and is usually associated with fey and fairies. If i look in Turmish i can find Moonhunt Down that was the site of a flying hunt of elves that perished against an unnamed foe (sounds like a dragon hunt to me).

Anyone have any thoughts on a Banshee Hill. If it can be located in Turmish then that means the Procession of Justice appeared in what was likely to be the last remnant of Jhaamdath and its military after the tsunami, before spreading out across the rest of the Vilhon, which also means it is likely that Valigan Thirdborn was one of the earlier casualties of the Procession of Justice, and not the last.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5377 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  20:28:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Emperor Dharien is a metamind.

A metamind is obsessed with gathering as much psionic power as possible and storing it within themselves.

It sounds to me like Emperor Dharien is an outsider of some kind, sent there to steal as much of the power of Jhaamdath for himself.

I read something by Ed Bonny about the citizens of Jhaamdath being linked together in a network of psionic users to act like a mythal. Now i'm ignoring the mythal part as that is so overused, but linking all the psionic users in Jhaamdath to a metamind sounds like he is getting ready to drain all the power of a nation into himself in one go.

Perhaps the elves were doing more than just getting revenge, perhaps they were trying to stop some greater evil from arising.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1758 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  21:31:30  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Thats just how i see it. Mayhaps George, Eric, and Ed will give us the true story at some point.



The way I've always seen it is that the "Clash of Pantheons" had to settle numerous divine portfolio overlaps to form the Faerunian pantheon.

Just like the God of Storms/Destruction portfolio, there were multiple claimants to the title of God of War. The Netherese worshiped Targus, the Jhamdaathans worshiped Garagos, and the Talfir worshiped Tempus.

First, the six-armed Netherese war god named Targus was subsumed by the Jhaamdathan god named Garagos (although Garagos ended up being nigh-identical to Targus, so perhaps Targus won but then adopted the more popular Garagos name?)

Either way, the gravely weakened Garagos/Targus then battled and lost to Talfirc war god Tempus. Tempus, newly infused with Ruathens who adopted his faith in the name of Tempos, did not subsume Garagos/Targus, but instead made him his vassal.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  22:23:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up the spelling difference between the northmen war god and his current name.

Interesting that you have tempus as talfiric, I was about to say that they don't strike me as very warlike (going from the moonshae depictions), but then there is ebenfar which was very warlike.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 02 Apr 2020 :  15:59:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found mention in Faiths and Pantheons that Valigan Thirdborn first "appeared" in -269 DR, and directly coincided with the rise of Exarch Thelasand IV.

So Valigan achieves enlightenment for the second time and then Thelasand becomes an Exarch in -269 DR. Thelasand then sets about trying to impel the Emperor towards greater conflict and bloodshed before seemingly fleeing Jhaamdath before the elves retaliated.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  13:32:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been going through Turmish lore, to try and figure out what happened to the last remnants of Jhaamdath.

Noted a few interesting things.


1 - Alaghon is built upon the ruins of a dwarven civilisation that previously dominated the land that would be Turmish.

2 - This dwarven civilisation of Turmish existed over 1000 years ago

3 - Elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have quite high populations in Turmish.



Now with regards to the dwarven civilisation. It cannot exist after -37 DR, because that is when Alaghon is founded by humans. It cannot exist between about -1000 DR and -238 DR because that is when Jhaamdath and its surviving remnants occupied the region. So either it exists for a brief period between -238 DR until -37 DR, or it exists before -1000 DR and was conquered by Jhaamdath.

Perhaps it is both. Perhaps dwarves occupied the land for many thousands of years until Jhaamdath conquered it. The Jhaamdathi brought a large number of demihuman slaves (they might only have considered human slavery not allowed) including elves from Nikerymath, and halflings from the Lake of Steam and put them to work in this fortress land.

When Jhaamdath was finally eradicated from Turmish the dwarves reestablished a nation of sorts (with elves and halflings on the surface) until the turami arrived en-masse a few centuries later.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6066 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  14:16:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I've been going through Turmish lore, to try and figure out what happened to the last remnants of Jhaamdath.

Noted a few interesting things.


1 - Alaghon is built upon the ruins of a dwarven civilisation that previously dominated the land that would be Turmish.

2 - This dwarven civilisation of Turmish existed over 1000 years ago

3 - Elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have quite high populations in Turmish.



Now with regards to the dwarven civilisation. It cannot exist after -37 DR, because that is when Alaghon is founded by humans. It cannot exist between about -1000 DR and -238 DR because that is when Jhaamdath and its surviving remnants occupied the region. So either it exists for a brief period between -238 DR until -37 DR, or it exists before -1000 DR and was conquered by Jhaamdath.

Perhaps it is both. Perhaps dwarves occupied the land for many thousands of years until Jhaamdath conquered it. The Jhaamdathi brought a large number of demihuman slaves (they might only have considered human slavery not allowed) including elves from Nikerymath, and halflings from the Lake of Steam and put them to work in this fortress land.

When Jhaamdath was finally eradicated from Turmish the dwarves reestablished a nation of sorts (with elves and halflings on the surface) until the turami arrived en-masse a few centuries later.



Just my musings ...

-218 DR Year of Dread
The dwarves of the Orsraun Mountains under Axelord Telbarth, “the Lord of Rubies”, descend onto the plains and enslave the disparate and scattered human settlements found along the northwestern shore of the Vilhon Reach. The rare dwarven, surface kingdom of Torennar is founded.

-213 DR Year of the Great Bell
The dwarves of Torennar use their human slaves to assist in building the small, surface city of Ullengrym (Modern: Alaghôn) to serve as the realm’s capital on the southern coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

-185 DR Year of Unburdening
Pockets of enslaved humans in the dwarven realm of Torennar rise up in revolt against their masters under the leadership of Alaghôn “the Red”.

179 DR Year of the Huntress
-The rebel slave Alaghôn is captured by the dwarves of Torennar and executed. His death inflames the vacillating human slaves who have not joined his cause, and they rise up en masse to bring fire and slaughter to the dwarven families residing in Ullengrym, leaving the city in ruins. The isolated dwarves of the surrounding region are swiftly overwhelmed and retreat to their mountain holds, bringing an end to the kingdom of Torennar. Alaghôn the Martyr is thereafter known as “Turamish”, or “Savior of the Turami” by the freed slaves.

-37 DR Year of Patriots
Rhalgôn, a descendant of the legendary Alaghôn, rebuilds the ruined city of Ullengrym on the southern shore of the Sea of Fallen Stars, naming it after his ancestor.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6066 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  14:28:45  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


When Jhaamdath was finally eradicated from Turmish the dwarves reestablished a nation of sorts (with elves and halflings on the surface) until the turami arrived en-masse a few centuries later.



The Turami were already in the environs of the Vilhon Reach, centuries before the fall of Jhaamdath. In fact, they were utilised by the Chondathans of Jhaamdath as an underclass of fieldhands and laborers when they took control of the lands around the Akanamere from c. -4950 DR. The sidebar in GHotR titled "Psiocracy of Jhaamdath" on p.25 gives an insight into the movements of the Turami in between the jostlings of the "big boys".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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