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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  21:42:10  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
Which of these undead horrors becomes your parties nightmare?

Choices:

Vampire Lord
Undead Werewolf Lord
Ghast Lord
Mummy Lord
Banshee
Lich Lord
Ghost
Ghoul Champion
Skeleton Warrior
Dire zombie with wizard classes
Death Knight
Demi-Lich

(Anonymous Vote)

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1712 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  18:23:07  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted lich-lord just because, well, lich-lord. But I don't think this question can be answered as each intelligent undead is unique. One could argue that Larloch is 'the most intelligent undead' in the Realms. But then there are the undead from the Twisted Rune to consider. What about Velsharoon? Or any one of a dozen named and powerful undead in the world?

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
345 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  18:54:20  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I seriously doubt zombies (dire or not) have the intelligence to cut it as wizards. From the viewpoint of a high level doomguide, morninglord or (Seven Heavens forbid) a Realms-adapted Radiant Servant of Lathander/Amaunator (using RAW in Complete Divine..ugh!), these undead would be less nightmares and more XP bonanzas.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  23:26:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

I went with demi-lich. I had too!

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shoon_VII

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Which of these undead horrors becomes your parties nightmare?


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33852 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  02:32:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  02:53:32  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

So, which one would be your choice?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33852 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  04:01:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

So, which one would be your choice?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.





I'm not picking any of them. Vampires, liches, and death knights are the only things of interest on the list... But vampires and liches are way overdone, and while death knights can be cool, I'd use one as a mid-level, maybe ranking boss, but not the BBEG.

A darakhul (from the Midgard setting) BBEG, trying to set up a community of darakhul, could be an interesting thing, if I absolutely had to pick some undead boss.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3178 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  05:27:47  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Banelich should have been an option...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1138 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  12:13:48  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, a Banelich was sort of equivalent in power to an avatar of Finder (demipower?) which sort of puts that right up there with the most powerful of liches/demiliches/etc. in my opinion.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  18:12:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I worded my question to you very poorly. What I meant to ask was: of anything other than what was offered, what would you choose, but you just did. I just wanted to clarify that poorly worded question on my part.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

So, which one would be your choice?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.





I'm not picking any of them. Vampires, liches, and death knights are the only things of interest on the list... But vampires and liches are way overdone, and while death knights can be cool, I'd use one as a mid-level, maybe ranking boss, but not the BBEG.

A darakhul (from the Midgard setting) BBEG, trying to set up a community of darakhul, could be an interesting thing, if I absolutely had to pick some undead boss.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  18:21:10  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Brimstone,

Yeah, great point there. Banelich are crazy powerful. I remember they had that Voice of Maleficence ability which was pretty awesome. :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Banelich should have been an option...


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  22:26:42  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess in this case I should have put a Baelnorn Lich as well. I only have a limited number of options and I didn't want to upset the Zombie fans either. I chose Undead Werewolf Lord, for the pure, unbridled terror and rage and hate and killing frenzy such a beast could throw at a standard party, or even a higher level one. Thank "The Howling" movie for my complete fear of Werewolves as a kid.

If the undead Werewolf Lord had no class levels, it would be a machine of pure terror in itself. But give the Undead Werewolf Lord class levels and you're looking at sheer horror and certain death.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  00:30:38  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

Great point on that one for sure. Malar approves! haha

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I guess in this case I should have put a Baelnorn Lich as well. I only have a limited number of options and I didn't want to upset the Zombie fans either. I chose Undead Werewolf Lord, for the pure, unbridled terror and rage and hate and killing frenzy such a beast could throw at a standard party, or even a higher level one. Thank "The Howling" movie for my complete fear of Werewolves as a kid.

If the undead Werewolf Lord had no class levels, it would be a machine of pure terror in itself. But give the Undead Werewolf Lord class levels and you're looking at sheer horror and certain death.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3178 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  02:02:12  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did vote Lich Lord, Banelich could fall under that!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  02:02:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Brimstone,

Were you really thinking Banelich though? ;)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

I did vote Lich Lord, Banelich could fall under that!


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
345 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  02:12:25  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33852 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  02:43:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I guess in this case I should have put a Baelnorn Lich as well. I only have a limited number of options and I didn't want to upset the Zombie fans either.


A baelnorn would not be a party's nightmare unless said party was evil and liked despoiling elven tombs.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  03:19:03  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1240 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  05:00:55  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.





Acererak is arguably one of the most infamous undead to ever live. Born the son of rape of a mortal woman by the balor Tarnhem, later the apprentice of Vecna himself, then almost succeeding in his scheme to become the supreme consciousness of the Negative Material Plane, puts him a lot higher in the scale of infamy than some undead ex-emperor.

Anyway, given the sheer number of epic level liches and demiliches around, the answer's pretty clear-cut.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  06:55:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master LordofBones,

While I certainly agree with you that Acererak was certainly one of the most infamous undead ever, especially as an apprentice to Vecna, but his output with that power... a little milktoast for me, to be honest. Let's take a look at what he did:

  • Built the Tomb of Horrors and had the slaves killed
  • Killed the Nine Gods of the Forbidden City and the slaves there
  • Tried to genocide the planet but didn't succeed


**Sorry, taking a quick yawn break there from that listing of Acererak**

Shoon VII

  • When crime increased in his empire, Shoon VII's solution was to order that oil be poured into the sewers of each Shoon city and lit to drive out the thieves' guilds living in hiding there. Shoon did not care that these conflagrations resulted in the deaths of over three million people. Ankhapur, Calimport, Innarlith, Ithmong, and Memnon were nearly destroyed from these Great Fires in 319 DR.
  • Shoon was responsible for the deaths of at least two dozen unicorns, which were sacrificed to create his most powerful magical artifacts. He even sanctioned hunts against them.
  • In 355 DR, when the elves of the Snakewood tried to defend a small herd of seven unicorns from being captured and slain, Shoon VII ordered his legions to eradicate the elves. So many elves were killed that the headwaters of River Rimril turned red from blood. Two-thirds of the elves from two tribes of the forest were captured. Half of these were enslaved; on the other half, Shoon VII performed horrifying magical experiments.
  • This battle occurred in the skies above Shoonach, over the slaves' city adjacent to the city center. 75,000 persons were slaughtered as a result of the careless use of magic from both parties.


So, I will admit that Acererak is cute, gets angry, and studied with tough people, but in the end Shoon VII has an impressive multi-million death toll on his hands, in addition to the other things listed. I just think in the end that Acererak is a cool demi-lich, but he just lacks the work ethic and that gumption to really get stuff done.

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.





Acererak is arguably one of the most infamous undead to ever live. Born the son of rape of a mortal woman by the balor Tarnhem, later the apprentice of Vecna himself, then almost succeeding in his scheme to become the supreme consciousness of the Negative Material Plane, puts him a lot higher in the scale of infamy than some undead ex-emperor.

Anyway, given the sheer number of epic level liches and demiliches around, the answer's pretty clear-cut.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33852 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  09:49:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meh, anyone that kills nine deities is going to impress me more than someone with a larger -- but entirely indirect -- death count. Yes, he's responsible for a lot of deaths, but he didn't commit those deaths himself -- this is more a display of political power, not personal magical might.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  20:16:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I am definitely not impressed when (9) fakers who title themselves as gods turn out to be Archfey that I feel any of those demiliches on the list could have defeated. Sure, archfey are powerful, but a demilich is going to mop the floor with them.

I also consider power to be outcome. One on one is great in a street fight. When you command enough power to kill 3 million people.....that's power: evil as hell, and not to be approved of, but power nonetheless.

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Meh, anyone that kills nine deities is going to impress me more than someone with a larger -- but entirely indirect -- death count. Yes, he's responsible for a lot of deaths, but he didn't commit those deaths himself -- this is more a display of political power, not personal magical might.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1240 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  20:22:41  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That doesn't showcase Shoon's personal power. He was an emperor, while Acererak was an orphaned slave. In terms of accomplishments, Acererak has achieved more than Shoon ever will.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  20:32:10  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master LordofBones,

Two people become demiliches: one beats up a bunch of uber faeries and the other is an emperor of a massive empire (one of most powerful in the world) who brought huge swaths of land such as the Shaar and more under his control.

I mean, clearly we see power in a different light, which is fine. I just look at it like this when it comes to power:

I'd rather be Ghengis Khan than Floyd Mayweather. Cool, Floyd can box and is the world champion at boxing, but what did he do with that power? How did he project it? What did he take? How did he dominate?

In this case, Floyd (Acererak) beat up some faeries and made a tomb. Cool, that has some cred. The kind of cred we see from a regional drug lord or something.

The other guy took over cultures, civilizations by beating them down like puppets. He took it all from them and made them like it. Power is what you do with it, and Acererak didn't do a whole lot with it. He tried. He tried to commit a worldwide genocide. You know what people call that? Want in one hand and crap in the other, see which one fills up faster. In the case of Acererak, I think we know.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

That doesn't showcase Shoon's personal power. He was an emperor, while Acererak was an orphaned slave. In terms of accomplishments, Acererak has achieved more than Shoon ever will.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33852 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  21:22:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but again, Shoon didn't do anything personally. He had lackeys for everything. You refer to Ghengis Khan and Floyd Mayweather, and say the first was more powerful -- but drop both, unarmed, in an alley in present-day New York City, and let's see how much power the Khan has. I'll gladly lay some gold on which one I expect to walk out of there.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1349 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  21:36:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

That's exactly why I mentioned to Master LordofBones, and I now mention to you: the three of us clearly disagree on power projection. Do I concede that Floyd Mayweather in a fist fight would wreck Ghengis Khan: of course. However, who had more of a powerful impact on the world? Who killed 1/3 of the planets population? Who caused the DNA of the world over to have traces of his DNA all throughout it? It was Ghengis Khan. To be clear, this is not aggrandizing that kind of behavior, but you can't deny the power.

I mean, if you feel that getting into a street fight is the ultimate form of power, you've clearly never been in a street fight. I boxed in the Army for three years and let me tell you: the power of world leaders, generals, and others is a hell of a lot better than my skills as a boxer ever were. lol

Aggrandizing the individual fighting capacity of a person, power does not make. Since you brought up New York (and I brought up Ghengis, etc.), I'll utilize another real world example: the U.S.

Any one person occupying the White House is just one, old person. Personally, not powerful. What our country can do sure is because the U.S. is so frickin' powerful it's almost like a fantasy story written by a 13 year old with self-esteem problems. That is power. The relevant power of one old person sitting behind a desk, personally, is irrelevant.

You can argue power projection all day long, but if all you feel is that it all boils down to a street fight to see who the winner is, I think that is a weak argument. Who has the most lasting effect? Not Floyd, but Ghengis.

Afterall..............900 years later, we're still talking about him. That's staying power.

Floyd will be forgotten in 100, tops.

I think if Acererak is looking for a job though, let him know that Shoon VII is taking apps for an empty bottle to fill with Crystal Head Vodka. Just give the address of:

4242 E. The Man Ave.
Calimshan, Calimport 8675309

Best regards,







quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yes, but again, Shoon didn't do anything personally. He had lackeys for everything. You refer to Ghengis Khan and Floyd Mayweather, and say the first was more powerful -- but drop both, unarmed, in an alley in present-day New York City, and let's see how much power the Khan has. I'll gladly lay some gold on which one I expect to walk out of there.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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