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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 21:42:10
Which of these undead horrors becomes your parties nightmare?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 20:36:16
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Wow......yeah, that would be horrifying, my god. That would make a puppet out of Shoon VII, and anyone else for that matter.

That kind of powerhouse could become a global......demi-lichdemic....? haha

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Just idly speculating about the possibilities of a 36 millenia old sarrukh demilich archwizard from Oreme. One of Arthindol the Terraseer's senior associates and a founding member of the Baetith. Now that would be an absolute terror.

Delnyn Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 17:58:44
Just idly speculating about the possibilities of a 36 millenia old sarrukh demilich archwizard from Oreme. One of Arthindol the Terraseer's senior associates and a founding member of the Baetith. Now that would be an absolute terror.
cpthero2 Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 17:17:55
Master LordofBones,

Oh, I get that. You bring up a really great issue.

With the different editions that have been produced, we find ourselves often in a competing set of circumstances, especially where stats for characters are at the center of discussion, as was Shoon VII in this discussion.

You can see Acererak was unstatted (yeah, I just made that up) in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition, 26th in 4th, and 20th in 5th.

Shoon VII was consistent in his aggregate level in 2nd and 3rd, but had no listing in 4th and 5th. It then begs the question, what if any comparison can be drawn power-wise between a 2nd/3rd Shoon VII and a hypothetical 4th/5th Shoon VII if one were made? We can all generalize but when you see such drastic changes with Acererak who has been lauded as out of this world powerful and then you see his lackluster at best composition in 4th and 5th, it really does make one wonder.

So, good point. Who are the other creatures and how do they compare.

To be honest, this kind of leaks ever so slightly into the reason behind why in the "Erin Evans" thread for questions to be posed to her in her interview coming up for Mages and Sages, I asked about continuity. This very discussion has continuity issues in it. Someone could tritely come along and proclaim no, there is no issue, just make a 4th/5th Shoon VII, but we all know looking at Acererak as one of many examples, that it wouldn't be apples to apples: 26th to 20th is an enormous drop in power.

Still, a very interesting issue though, nonetheless. :)

Best regards as always!





quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I'm also going to straight up say that I don't recognize a lot of these creatures. To the best of my knowledge, there is no lich lord, dire zombie, ghast Lord, werewolf Lord, ghoul champion or skeleton warrior template in 3e.

LordofBones Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 07:42:43
I'm also going to straight up say that I don't recognize a lot of these creatures. To the best of my knowledge, there is no lich lord, dire zombie, ghast Lord, werewolf Lord, ghoul champion or skeleton warrior template in 3e.
cpthero2 Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 07:09:48
Master LordofBones,

I 100% agree with you there. The HP when you're dealing with someone like Shoon VII, Elminster, etc. is almost irrelevant.

Regarding the allips, that was my point is that the archmage is just going to pin the leShay down with conjured creatures and then beat him down at his leisure. Ugliness for sure.

Best regards,
LordofBones Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 02:23:19
I find the focus on hit points kind of odd too. Spellcasters have all kinds of nasty things that bypass hitpoints (ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, save or suck), especially given that the tarrasque with its 1000 hit points can be reliably beaten by a gang of low level wizards capable of summoning allips.

cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 19:08:34
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

quote:
Point and case... a LeShay has 50d6+650 (825 hp). This is a generic LeShay without class levels. 3.5ED.


My point was that the HP, SR are irrelevant when taking into account all of what is available to that 36th level Archmage/Necromancer/Demi-Lich that was listed by both myself and recently, Master LordofBones' post.

I think the idea of adding levels to the point of having capacity to contend with the spell based aspects of the Shoon VII, would require that a CR28 leShay need to have serious casting itself, likely at least level 20, so we'd be pushing at least a CR50. I don't think that was the intent behind a leShay or an archfey. They were designed to be the denizen they are, not to contend with the 1/10000th of 1% Art/Power wielders in the world.

There just are those out there that can bring the pain, such as Shoon VII, Elminster, Szass Tam, etc. That's why, often, if something is going down to take out a mega threat such as the mages I just gave an example of, it usually takes many to be involved. They are just that ludicrously powerful.

A perfect example is when The Blackstaff went off the rez by telling Bran Skorlsun to go screw himself after he was found guilty and admitted his guilt. He basically told Bran, "Try to enforce it", and teleported back to his tower in Waterdeep.

These kinds of beings are just way too powerful to be dealt with something that is martially based like a leShay. The power bellcurve lays it rather ruthlessly.

Best regards,




cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 18:46:00
Master LordofBones,

quote:
A leShay is already an epic creature. Its problem is that it has nothing else going for. It's a souped-up elf. Meanwhile, Shoon is immune to almost everything it can throw at him, and has counters for everything else.


Agreed there. They are just ramped up uber Elves. The martial focus is just inadequate against a superior archmage like, well...any archmage.

quote:
The other issue? The official demilich in the srd is CR 29, while the official leshay is CR 28. Shoon's baseline CR is 36 (class) + 2 (lich) + 6 (demilich) = 44, and he's a wizard. LeShay are melee focused fey without the damage output to back up their CR, with no offensive magical powers (Shoon can harm at will to counter the leshay's heal), and the lich is immune to their charm gaze. They have a good concept, but a poor execution.


You are 100% correct on the martial aspect of course, that is clear.

You also make a very salient point about the Harm/Heal situation. It's just going to go on endlessly while the leShay contends with all manner of nasty summoned creatures that Shoon VII summons to delay the leShay, assuming the leShay could even engage with Shoon VII. It would frankly be a foppish display of inevitability on the part of the leShay.

quote:
To make things worse, the printed leshay can't harm Shoon at all. It has a brilliant energy weapon, and Shoon is undead.


Ahhhh....great point. I didn't even catch that, ha! Thanks for making that point.

quote:
Also, adding class levels won't help. LeShay have no innate spellcasting, which rules out spellcasting classes. They have no innate sneak attack, and Shoon's immune anyway. They can just hit things harder, which means fighters.


Agreed again of course.

quote:
In which case, just take an elf and turn him into an epic level fighter. He'll have better feats and better gear than the leShay.


I agree, but the situation is the same nonetheless. Everyone knows the bellcurve as it pertains to melee combatants against spell wielders at higher levels: they get wrecked. A leShay, or even a higher level fighter or derivative would just the Super Star Destroyer treatment at distance from the archmage/demi-lich and be unable to do anything about it. Not to mention, a tiny skull that would have improved invisibility moving around at lightning speed in the air? That would be a nightmare situation to contend with.

Best regards,


Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 16:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

quote:
Elminster could NOT wipe the floor with an Archfey as a enemy. Not currently at least.


I don't deny that, if we're talking Elminster in 5e. I should have clarified not playing in 4e/5e that I am looking at these issues through a pre-Spellplague lens, so my bad on that, and thank you for mentioning that! :)

Pre-Spellplague Elminster would slap around an arch-fey like it was Friday Night Fights in downtown Leeds, 1993. He would even would have made them clean his shoes after the beating, and then apologize for wasting his time, to boot.

quote:
No powerful wizard on Faerun can wipe the floor with an Archfey. Larloch, Tamm, Wulgreth, Telemont, Elminster, Halaster, Shoon 1 thru 7, Hateefronithal Starsphere, Karsus the mad, Zengi, Manshoon clones, Ghost Blackstaff Arunsun, Countless Baelnorn, etc.. etc...


Let's bust out the stats and see then. I just read that Acererak beat the Nine "Gods" [give me a minute, I am laughing uncontrollably right now] who were really primal spirits/arch-fey. So, if a 26th level demi-lich/wizard in 4e/20th level wizard in 5e can beat those primal spirits/arch-fey......where is it that no powerful wizard can't? Last time I checked, all of the wizards you mentioned would dominate Acererak, and he is the one that beat the alleged Nine "Gods". I mean, it's all right there in the canon.

The answer is pretty obvious with the canon lore I've produced: the wizards you listed would beat those chump arch-fey like the 3rd grade hedge wizards they really are.

quote:
The only possible creature on Faerun that could possibly take on a Archfey and live is The Shrinshee. The Archfey are divine level 0. so how can you justify that?


The answer to this is:

quote:
Rank 0: A quasi-deity or hero-deity. An immortal being who receives maximum hit points per hit dice, but may not grant spells to clerics. They include the offspring of deities and mortals, and humans who ascended to entry-level divine status, such as Kyuss). (Deities and Demigods, 3e, 2002)


That's pretty obvious there. They're just sort of like Hercules. They could get crushed by a powerful wizard: easily. However, let me give you the abilities and what not exactly as they are from Deities and Demigods 3e:

  • 1) Most deities (all those with 20 outsider Hit Dice) have a natural armor bonus of their divine rank +13. All deities also have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Charisma bonus (if any).Deities who aren’t outsiders have their normal natural armor bonus + their divine rank.
  • 2) A deity’s Hit Dice and type and character level determine its base attack bonus. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all attack rolls.
  • 3) A deity’s outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses.
  • 4) A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks, and turning checks.
  • 5) Transmutation: A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself. Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.
    Mind-Affecting Effects: A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Energy Immunity: Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities. Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison,
    stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.
  • 6) Damage Reduction: A deity has damage reduction of 35 + its divine rank/+4. For example, a demigod with a divine rank of 3 has damage reduction 38/+4.
  • 7) Energy Resistance: A deity has fire resistance of 20 + its divine rank. Spell Resistance: A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.


Let's break this all down and lay out why these primal spirits/arch-fey, are really not all that when compared to someone such as Shoon VII:

1) No natural armor class bonus since they have no outsider HD, but get their normal natural AC +0 (for their divine rank).

2) No divine rank bonus to attack rolls.

3) No bonus to savings throws as they are not outsiders.

4) They get a +0 to all checks.

5) No immunity to energy of any kind except fire, nor disease, poisons, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, or disintegration.

6) DR 35/+4

7) Fire Resistance 20 & Spell Resistance 32 + 0.

So, when you look at those broken down....not all that impressive against a 36th level Necromancer/Archmage. SR 32? lol Shoon VII is 36th: wins on a -4 on a d20, so all of his magic goes through.

All of what is just listed, isn't even taking into account all of the artifacts and other magic items at his disposal. He would utterly wreck one of those primal spirits/arch-fey.

Best regards,



EDITED: Took out the original reply from Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire



Point and case... a LeShay has 50d6+650 (825 hp). This is a generic LeShay without class levels. 3.5ED.
LordofBones Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 07:39:09
A leShay is already an epic creature.

Its problem is that it has nothing else going for. It's a souped-up elf. Meanwhile, Shoon is immune to almost everything it can throw at him, and has counters for everything else.

The other issue? The official demilich in the srd is CR 29, while the official leshay is CR 28. Shoon's baseline CR is 36 (class) + 2 (lich) + 6 (demilich) = 44, and he's a wizard. LeShay are melee focused fey without the damage output to back up their CR, with no offensive magical powers (Shoon can harm at will to counter the leshay's heal), and the lich is immune to their charm gaze. They have a good concept, but a poor execution.

To make things worse, the printed leshay can't harm Shoon at all. It has a brilliant energy weapon, and Shoon is undead.

Also, adding class levels won't help. LeShay have no innate spellcasting, which rules out spellcasting classes. They have no innate sneak attack, and Shoon's immune anyway. They can just hit things harder, which means fighters.

In which case, just take an elf and turn him into an epic level fighter. He'll have better feats and better gear than the leShay.
cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 07:32:02
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

I completely get what you mean there when you say look up demi-lich. It's just really a template on top of the other goodness. Acererak is not powerful, so his demi-lich status and powers didn't do much to help him get that much stronger.

On the other hand, a 36th level Archmage/Necromancer demi-lich has the goods.

I think we may have to agree to disagree absent a fight between the two.

You live in Washington State? ;) hahaha

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

You're crunching numbers but not playing the game. I promise you... a LeShay of generic standards with some class levels would destroy Elminster Aumar. Elminster is a CR 40 at best. An epic level LeShay would wipe the floor with a Demi-Lich. And said LeShay vs. a Demi-Lich in generic stats alone is winning.

Look up LeShay and then look up Demi-Lich... My money is on the LeShay 100% of the time. Everytime!

cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 07:28:42
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

All good points there. Those demi-liches are nasty as can be, absent any of their other stuff.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Let us see. Getting my soul sucked into a gem (no save allowed) and my body moulders away (also no save) is a legit nightmare. The party must release the soul from the gem (of which there are multiple, so plenty of available soul sucks) before the demilich eats the soul. No resurrection allowed. Having a negative energy protection aka death ward prevents the soul suck but body still moulders away (still no save).
Don't forget weapon and magic immunities up the wazoo. Turn undead? Ha!

cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 07:26:12
Master LordofBones,

quote:
Archfey is a nebulous term, given that 5e includes true gods (Titania, Lurue, Verenestra, the Queen of Air and Darkness, Auril) in their lineup.


I am not going to disagree there. I think it was really screwed up in 5e with this kind of silliness that is going on.

quote:
On the other hand, nuking quasi deities is well within any spellcaster's power.


Agreed.

quote:
That still makes Acererak more impressive than some bloke who went and killed a herd of CR 3 horned magic horses to make a magic staff that's outstripped by any bloke with a staff of the magi.


lol...I love it! "...a her of CR 3 horned magic horses...", haha.

Ok, all laughing aside (you are right about them by the way, but well put!), my point is that Lurue and Rillifane Rallathil sat by while it all happened. It wasn't about how difficult it was to kill the unicorns. It was all about the fact that two archfey just sat there and took it while it went down at their house. That is power from Shoon VII.

Best regards,
cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 07:19:38
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

quote:
A LeShay is a super powerful fey. Now imagine that LeShay with class levels. wow. just wow. Elminster would be hard pressed to kill a generic LeShay, let alone one with class levels. And that's not even with a divine rank of 0. lmao!!


I can appreciate the outlook, but I don't understand why you feel Elminster (3.5e) would be hard pressed to kill a generic LeShay. Here are some stats for a leShay:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm

Sure, you look at it and think: 825HP! SR42! Until you realize that Assay Spell Resistance, Spell Pen, and Great Spell Pen trash that down to a no roll situation and all that magic comes in delivered by the U.S.S. Face Wrecker. Even if it could fly to catch up with these archmages flying about, those archmages, i.e. Shoon VII, Elminster, would have so many summoned creatures overwhelming it. It would just be a matter of time to keep laying those unopposed magic hits against that archfey and it would go down.

As far as the divine rank 0 goes, check out a recent post in here I made and you'll see: not all that impressive against that kind of mage. A melee combatant like the leShay is just too disadvantaged against someone like these mages we're talking about. Too much power. The leShay is powerful, but a one trick pony with abilities that are rather lackluster.

quote:
Titiana and Oberon are Gods on the Plane of Faerie.


The key here is: "...on the Plane of Faerie." I completely cede that too you. If on the Place of Faerie, they are omnipotent there. They couldn't do anything. They would just be dead, end of story. As any other god regardless of deific type.

quote:
Okay... Here is who brings down Shoon VII. Vraxamaxathell "Starshadow" Moonflower


Impressive guy, but I don't see how that much martial, takes on however many creatures, plus the magic, that these guys bring in. Shoon VII brings in an army of undead to just bog him down while he tears into him from afar. The melee guys just don't have the stuff to take on a 36th level Archmage Necromancer who is more powerful than Szass Tam. He would be using up to 4th level spells (the Globe of Invulnerability takes care of that) and he's a melee guy who as I said, would be fighting infinite amounts of slow me down's until he is destroyed by the onslaught of magic.

quote:
The publishers of D&D material is broken in our years.


Agreed.

quote:
Shoon VII might have been powerful, but slaying 9 archfey is ludicrous at best.


One thing that is important to note here, is that in the time of Acererak taking out the (9) archfey/primal spirits, it didn't say he took them on simultaneously. I am surmising he did take them out one at a time. I think that is pretty important, because I also agree there is no way any of the mages discussed could take out (9) of them simultaneously.

quote:
The only reason Erevis Cale and Drasik Rivin, and Rivalen Tanthul destroyed Volumvax is because they each had a shard of shadow-divinity from Mask among them. Volumvax or Kesson Rel was a demi-god under the divine rank of 0.


Erevis Cale stats: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis-35.htm *From the author himself in 3.5*
Shade Rogue 6/Fighter 3/Cleric 11/Divine Agent 2

Rivalen Tanthul stats: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Rivalen_Tanthul
Wizard 11/Cleric 15/Shadow Adept 7

Drasik Rivin stats: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drasek_Riven
Level 8 Fighter

Volumvax stats: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kesson_Rel
Cleric 7/Shadow Adept 8/Divine Disciple 5

The reason they barely beat him down is because that diffusion of levels didn't bring in the big guns like you'd see with Volumvax. Volumvax was a 20th level priest. He had the big guns, extra abilities, and more of it all around. A level 8 fighter going in there is nothing. Frankly, even Erevis Cale with an 11th level cleric casting a few 6th level spells isn't bringing it. Now, the distraction factor from those three, and one powerhouse in Rivalen Tanthul, was the trick: a 22nd level cleric and 11th level priest. Yeah, that will wreck face. He's getting the big guns, and the right volume of them then. That's why the won. That divine rank of 0 just slowed it down with that DR 35/+4.

quote:
No proper deity is less than divine rank 1.


Agreed, but those archfey are divine rank 0, and that's one good reason why they would get dominated. Not enough juice.

Fantastic debate as always! Thank you!

Best regards,




Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 06:29:38
You're crunching numbers but not playing the game. I promise you... a LeShay of generic standards with some class levels would destroy Elminster Aumar. Elminster is a CR 40 at best. An epic level LeShay would wipe the floor with a Demi-Lich. And said LeShay vs. a Demi-Lich in generic stats alone is winning.

Look up LeShay and then look up Demi-Lich... My money is on the LeShay 100% of the time. Everytime!
cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 05:47:08
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

quote:
Elminster could NOT wipe the floor with an Archfey as a enemy. Not currently at least.


I don't deny that, if we're talking Elminster in 5e. I should have clarified not playing in 4e/5e that I am looking at these issues through a pre-Spellplague lens, so my bad on that, and thank you for mentioning that! :)

Pre-Spellplague Elminster would slap around an arch-fey like it was Friday Night Fights in downtown Leeds, 1993. He would even would have made them clean his shoes after the beating, and then apologize for wasting his time, to boot.

quote:
No powerful wizard on Faerun can wipe the floor with an Archfey. Larloch, Tamm, Wulgreth, Telemont, Elminster, Halaster, Shoon 1 thru 7, Hateefronithal Starsphere, Karsus the mad, Zengi, Manshoon clones, Ghost Blackstaff Arunsun, Countless Baelnorn, etc.. etc...


Let's bust out the stats and see then. I just read that Acererak beat the Nine "Gods" [give me a minute, I am laughing uncontrollably right now] who were really primal spirits/arch-fey. So, if a 26th level demi-lich/wizard in 4e/20th level wizard in 5e can beat those primal spirits/arch-fey......where is it that no powerful wizard can't? Last time I checked, all of the wizards you mentioned would dominate Acererak, and he is the one that beat the alleged Nine "Gods". I mean, it's all right there in the canon.

The answer is pretty obvious with the canon lore I've produced: the wizards you listed would beat those chump arch-fey like the 3rd grade hedge wizards they really are.

quote:
The only possible creature on Faerun that could possibly take on a Archfey and live is The Shrinshee. The Archfey are divine level 0. so how can you justify that?


The answer to this is:

quote:
Rank 0: A quasi-deity or hero-deity. An immortal being who receives maximum hit points per hit dice, but may not grant spells to clerics. They include the offspring of deities and mortals, and humans who ascended to entry-level divine status, such as Kyuss). (Deities and Demigods, 3e, 2002)


That's pretty obvious there. They're just sort of like Hercules. They could get crushed by a powerful wizard: easily. However, let me give you the abilities and what not exactly as they are from Deities and Demigods 3e:

  • 1) Most deities (all those with 20 outsider Hit Dice) have a natural armor bonus of their divine rank +13. All deities also have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Charisma bonus (if any).Deities who aren’t outsiders have their normal natural armor bonus + their divine rank.
  • 2) A deity’s Hit Dice and type and character level determine its base attack bonus. A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all attack rolls.
  • 3) A deity’s outsider Hit Dice and character level determine its base saving throw bonuses.
  • 4) A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks, and turning checks.
  • 5) Transmutation: A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself. Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.
    Mind-Affecting Effects: A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Energy Immunity: Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities. Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison,
    stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.
  • 6) Damage Reduction: A deity has damage reduction of 35 + its divine rank/+4. For example, a demigod with a divine rank of 3 has damage reduction 38/+4.
  • 7) Energy Resistance: A deity has fire resistance of 20 + its divine rank. Spell Resistance: A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.


Let's break this all down and lay out why these primal spirits/arch-fey, are really not all that when compared to someone such as Shoon VII:

1) No natural armor class bonus since they have no outsider HD, but get their normal natural AC +0 (for their divine rank).

2) No divine rank bonus to attack rolls.

3) No bonus to savings throws as they are not outsiders.

4) They get a +0 to all checks.

5) No immunity to energy of any kind except fire, nor disease, poisons, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, or disintegration.

6) DR 35/+4

7) Fire Resistance 20 & Spell Resistance 32 + 0.

So, when you look at those broken down....not all that impressive against a 36th level Necromancer/Archmage. SR 32? lol Shoon VII is 36th: wins on a -4 on a d20, so all of his magic goes through.

All of what is just listed, isn't even taking into account all of the artifacts and other magic items at his disposal. He would utterly wreck one of those primal spirits/arch-fey.

Best regards,



EDITED: Took out the original reply from Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 03:57:19
In the end...

Can you walk among the living and be a member of society?

As a Vampire Lord, yes you can.

All other intelligent undead fails at that. And it's unfortunate that its's the way it is. lol. Vampire Lords are the only members of the undead that can mingle with the living and not be noticed. The Shopkeeper might be a Vampire Lord. The Jeweler may be a Vampire Lord.

Your elven High Mage may be a Vampire Lord. (That would be super cool)

Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 03:27:29
A LeShay is a super powerful fey. Now imagine that LeShay with class levels. wow. just wow. Elminster would be hard pressed to kill a generic LeShay, let alone one with class levels. And that's not even with a divine rank of 0. lmao!!

Titiana and Oberon are Gods on the Plane of Faerie. They are Summercourt. So the fey deities of Spring, Autumn and Winter are almost equally powerful. God-like status. official divine rank 1 at minimum. If lesser archfey hold titles of lord or queen or dutchess, duke, prince, or princess, then I can only surmise that they are ultra powerful beings unto themselves.

Okay... Here is who brings down Shoon VII.

Vraxamaxathell "Starshadow" Moonflower: CN Moon elf male of Evereska. CR 45; Duskblade 20/ Bladesinger 10/ Swashbuckler 10/ Divine Champion 5 of Erevan Ilesere. Those stats alone couldn't destroy a god, let alone a demi-god. So killing 1 Archfey is ludicrous to say the least.

The publishers of D&D material is broken in our years. Fighting an Archfey is like fighting a Demon lord or a Duke of hell.

Shoon VII might have been powerful, but slaying 9 archfey is ludicrous at best.

The only reason Erevis Cale and Drasik Rivin, and Rivalen Tanthul destroyed Volumvax is because they each had a shard of shadow-divinity from Mask among them. Volumvax or Kesson Rel was a demi-god under the divine rank of 0.

Again... as far as gods go...
You have a Demi-god. (Volumvax, Kesson Rel, Sheverash)
Then you have divine rank 0
Then you have divine rank 1.

No proper deity is less than divine rank 1.
I would say that Archfey rank about divine level 0 as a generic starter. Then the more powerful you are, the more powerful your rank.

In the Feywild (The Plane of Faerie) Titiana and Oberon are Greater deities. The other seasonal courts are equally powerful to an extant. Much more powerful than a Demi-Lich on the prime material plane.

No Demi-Lich, or Lich Lord can slay 9 archfey and tuck it under his/her belt. I'm saying it's just not possible. Not in game terms at least.

I run nothing but epic campaigns. Everything I do is epic related in 3.5ed. So this is impossible. Larloch himself couldn't possibly kill 9 archfey and survive.
cpthero2 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 02:55:18
Master LordofBones,

I'm just bringing the data to the coliseum here. He is a face wrecker, no lie.

quote:
Shoon's levels are seriously out of whack with his history.


1) I think killing twelve arch-mages before he took the throne probably counts as having a pretty good history for violence, capability, and power.

2) He had the sitting Magister taken out by his lackies, because it wasn't even worth his time. How do we know it wasn't worth his time? He smoked (12) archmages like cheap cigars before. This guy is a Realms Wizard Gangster.

3) He killed the lich Hazamir al Aktorral and then turned him into a construct.

There still is no good list from anyone I've heard from yet about Acererak's accomplishments. Maybe there is some great stuff, but I've yet to see it. Let me say this though...

I don't think killing a bunch of tribes folk after making them build you a tomb is particularly impressive. I also don't think it is particularly impressive that he took out a bunch of primal spirits with his identified 20th or 26th levels of wizardly power. The nine "gods" clearly were not that impressive.

Since Iryklathagra is a point of contention in why Shoon VII was beaten up by him when people seem to believe he shouldn't have, let's look at what happened. First battle went to Shoon VII, second battle went to Iryklathagra, and the third went to Iryklathagra. However, Shoon VII utilized that "loss" to plan his "death" which allowed him to become even more powerful as a lich, and over time, a demi-lich. He's been amassing even more power to contend with this Great Wyrm Blue Dragon.

The fact of the matter is this: if Shoon VII (with his canon levels as a Necromancer and Archmage) had that kind of difficulty with Iryklathagra, then it's pretty obvious that Acererak would have been wrecked like a child. So, I completely disagree that it should have been a walk in the park to take out a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon casting as just shy of a epic level sorcerer (casting as a 17th level sorcerer) on top of the brutal physical aspects of Iryklathagra in close quarters combat. Let's also not forget this for the second battle that,

quote:
Iryklathagra had assembled a veritable armory of spells and magic devices of her own
and certainly did for the third battle. Great Wyrm dragons are not just the physical and magical beasts that they are by stats, but Iryklathagra also had the enormous horde of amazing artifacts and other epic magical items that she clearly had brought to fight with before against Shoon VII.

So, to dismiss canon lore about their fights as just that "should have been a walk in the park for him" is completely disregarding the vast amount of power that Iryklathagra was bringing to the fight. No one here has provided anything of substance to articulate stats that are significant, of noteworthy power, or convincing as to Acererak being able to fight anything he has been listed as having fought.

I'm just seeing nothing impressive about Acererak. What did he do?

Best regards,


Delnyn Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 02:52:22
Let us see. Getting my soul sucked into a gem (no save allowed) and my body moulders away (also no save) is a legit nightmare. The party must release the soul from the gem (of which there are multiple, so plenty of available soul sucks) before the demilich eats the soul. No resurrection allowed. Having a negative energy protection aka death ward prevents the soul suck but body still moulders away (still no save).
Don't forget weapon and magic immunities up the wazoo. Turn undead? Ha!
LordofBones Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 02:46:14
Archfey is a nebulous term, given that 5e includes true gods (Titania, Lurue, Verenestra, the Queen of Air and Darkness, Auril) in their lineup.

On the other hand, nuking quasi deities is well within any spellcaster's power.

That still makes Acererak more impressive than some bloke who went and killed a herd of CR 3 horned magic horses to make a magic staff that's outstripped by any bloke with a staff of the magi.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 02:19:22
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

As always, thank you for the reply! :)

quote:
Wow... Primitive Archfey? I cannot recall one primitive archfey to date. Most of them are surpassingly intelligent along with spells and abilities that would make most mortals think they are gods, yes. I'm not sure you understand the concept of archfey entirely.


To clarify that, with the nuance of what was on p.61 of Dragon Magazine #361, the Primal Spirits and the Arch-Fey are on par in power, etc. They're sort of in the same group when you look at that entry in that Dragon Magazine.

I don't deny that they are powerful, which is why they "were fey beings who gained nearly god-like powers" and "some archfey were regarded as deities", but they were not gods/deities. Yeah, they're powerful. However, when I look at Shoon VII taking on (12) archmages and wrecking them, as well as took out thee Magister of the time, I am looking at that saying to myself: yeah, he can take out some arch-fey/primal spirits. Shoon VII is a ludicrously powerful wizard.

Bear in mind this:

Elminster in 3e stats was a 35th level wizard.

Shoon VII was a 36th level wizard. He straight up went that route though. Some of Elminster's classes were: (1) Fighter, (2) Rogue, and (3) Cleric. As with Shoon VII, he took (5) levels of Archmage.

Elminster is Chosen of Mystra, and Shoon VII was a demi-lich. They've both got some great templates, powers, etc.

Then we look at Acererak. He's got demi-lich for a template, and is powerful in his own right, but not even remotely close to either of those.

Elminster or Shoon VII could wipe the floor with those primal spirits/arch-fey from that stats I am seeing.

quote:
A lesser archfey would make Drizzt Do'Urden look like a novice encounter.


Agreed, and Shoon VII or Acererak would make Drizz't look like a novice encounter too.

quote:
Yes, you have lesser Archfey, but they are all so powerful that you have to be an epic level PC to even do 1d4 damage to them.


Great point, of which the criteria is met, as Shoon VII is epic level. He's higher level than Elminster, The Blackstaff, the Simbul, etc. I feel pretty confident that Elminster, The Blackstaff, or the Simbul could facewreck an archfey/primal spirit. Shoon VII could as well.

quote:
Shoon 7 must have been beyond epic in 3.5ED to do any of this. Karsus himself could barely get rid of a cabal of Phaerimm destroying his homeland. lol. Karsus and his Netherese friends needed the elves and their High Magic to even contain that problem. Hence the Sharn Wall. Now destroyed and never correctly sealed as far as I know.


You are right: he was. He's higher level in 3.5 stats than the wizards mentioned above.

quote:
So a Heard of 7 Unicorns... (ultra powerful unto themselves), and two seperate green elf clans with powerful heroes full of powerful druids and clerics and favored souls and rangers of extraordinary legend.


Yep, indeed. Lurue (archfey) and Rillifane Rallathil did nothing about it either. They just watched it happen, and I think they did because they know Shoon VII would have trashed them.

It's all in Empires of the Shining Sea where you can see his history, power, etc. He's a monster wizard. One of the most powerful of the Realms.

Best regards,



Elminster could NOT wipe the floor with an Archfey as a enemy. Not currently at least. I have not personally read anything that has mentally recouped his capabilities since Elminster in Hell. Even the book The Herald doesn't delve into his personal madness.

No powerful wizard on Faerun can wipe the floor with an Archfey. Larloch, Tamm, Wulgreth, Telemont, Elminster, Halaster, Shoon 1 thru 7, Hateefronithal Starsphere, Karsus the mad, Zengi, Manshoon clones, Ghost Blackstaff Arunsun, Countless Baelnorn, etc.. etc...

The only possible creature on Faerun that could possibly take on a Archfey and live is The Shrinshee. The Archfey are divine level 0. so how can you justify that?

The Srinshee is almost CR 50 in 3.5ED She is High Magic ultima... A mortal goddess really. The most powerful being in Faerun. More powerful than any living mage on the planet.

The Srinshee is beyond powerful. But I highly doubt she can destroy a archfey. Kesson Rel was a demi-god. Sheverash is a demi-god and he has never been overthrown since his ascension to godhood over -30,000 years ago in DR timelines.

I would very much like to know who these 9 archfey were that he demolished.

To slay 1 archfey is like killing a god. How can you possibly claim killing 9 archfey? Broken, broken, broken mechanics.
LordofBones Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 00:05:20
Shoon's levels are seriously out of whack with his history. Killing Sharpfangs should have been a walk in the park for him, and he's statted to be even more powerful than Larloch. He's basically the most powerful being in the Realms, only his levels are in a void because nothing really stands out in his personal history. However, going by feats and notoriety, Acererak outstrips him. So does Zagyg. Evil empires come and go, but Acererak shaped the history of the Planes. Acererak, Vecna, Karsus and Zagyg are legends who played their parts in the histories of their settings, while Shoon is yet another undead conqueror scrabbling for lost glory.

Also, if we take published levels into account then Shoon is a better wizard than Larloch, which is kind of bogus.

cpthero2 Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 22:40:40
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

As always, thank you for the reply! :)

quote:
Wow... Primitive Archfey? I cannot recall one primitive archfey to date. Most of them are surpassingly intelligent along with spells and abilities that would make most mortals think they are gods, yes. I'm not sure you understand the concept of archfey entirely.


To clarify that, with the nuance of what was on p.61 of Dragon Magazine #361, the Primal Spirits and the Arch-Fey are on par in power, etc. They're sort of in the same group when you look at that entry in that Dragon Magazine.

I don't deny that they are powerful, which is why they "were fey beings who gained nearly god-like powers" and "some archfey were regarded as deities", but they were not gods/deities. Yeah, they're powerful. However, when I look at Shoon VII taking on (12) archmages and wrecking them, as well as took out thee Magister of the time, I am looking at that saying to myself: yeah, he can take out some arch-fey/primal spirits. Shoon VII is a ludicrously powerful wizard.

Bear in mind this:

Elminster in 3e stats was a 35th level wizard.

Shoon VII was a 36th level wizard. He straight up went that route though. Some of Elminster's classes were: (1) Fighter, (2) Rogue, and (3) Cleric. As with Shoon VII, he took (5) levels of Archmage.

Elminster is Chosen of Mystra, and Shoon VII was a demi-lich. They've both got some great templates, powers, etc.

Then we look at Acererak. He's got demi-lich for a template, and is powerful in his own right, but not even remotely close to either of those.

Elminster or Shoon VII could wipe the floor with those primal spirits/arch-fey from that stats I am seeing.

quote:
A lesser archfey would make Drizzt Do'Urden look like a novice encounter.


Agreed, and Shoon VII or Acererak would make Drizz't look like a novice encounter too.

quote:
Yes, you have lesser Archfey, but they are all so powerful that you have to be an epic level PC to even do 1d4 damage to them.


Great point, of which the criteria is met, as Shoon VII is epic level. He's higher level than Elminster, The Blackstaff, the Simbul, etc. I feel pretty confident that Elminster, The Blackstaff, or the Simbul could facewreck an archfey/primal spirit. Shoon VII could as well.

quote:
Shoon 7 must have been beyond epic in 3.5ED to do any of this. Karsus himself could barely get rid of a cabal of Phaerimm destroying his homeland. lol. Karsus and his Netherese friends needed the elves and their High Magic to even contain that problem. Hence the Sharn Wall. Now destroyed and never correctly sealed as far as I know.


You are right: he was. He's higher level in 3.5 stats than the wizards mentioned above.

quote:
So a Heard of 7 Unicorns... (ultra powerful unto themselves), and two seperate green elf clans with powerful heroes full of powerful druids and clerics and favored souls and rangers of extraordinary legend.


Yep, indeed. Lurue (archfey) and Rillifane Rallathil did nothing about it either. They just watched it happen, and I think they did because they know Shoon VII would have trashed them.

It's all in Empires of the Shining Sea where you can see his history, power, etc. He's a monster wizard. One of the most powerful of the Realms.

Best regards,








Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 21:35:36
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

As always, thank you for the reply! :)

I responded to Learned Scribe Delnyn on 03 Mar 20 @ 03:19:03 with the following reply:

quote:
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.

Best regards,


I think when you say, "I think it's quite relevant, when we're talking about who's more powerful, to look at what they are capable of doing by themselves. You're the one who brought up the comparison.", with a focus being brought to the comparison, my intention was to focus on power.

Even though I look at power in what I feel to be its most significant form, power projection and output, you both [Master Rupert & Master LordofBones] are very focused on the fight itself (which I find inconsequential) between these two, so lets look at the data:

Shoon VII

  • 2nd Edition: 36th level Wizard
  • 3rd Edition: 31st level Necromancer, 5th level Archmage


Acererak

  • 4th Edition: 26th level Controller (Wizard)
  • 5th Edition: 20th level Wizard


Acererak is underwhelming in comparison. Shoon VII's capacity is clearly far superior in stats alone, but as I said: he did something with his power, he's not a failure like Acererak, who can't even get his genocide right, but Shoon VII certainly did.

quote:
You're talking about projecting power, as if that's all it takes to be powerful -- but if all of your accomplishments rest on a title and underlings, does that really make you powerful?


Yes........yes it does. How many real world examples would you like, as an example we can relate too, to prove that it isn't the individuals capacity to fight in an alley fight, but what they do with that power that matters? I mean, did Emperor Octavion show up in a row boat by himself, and Antonius as well in a row boat to settle their differences to see who is the most powerful? No, they fought it out at the Battle of Actium. The power of Octavion and the power of Antony/Cleopatra allow them to project that power and dominate, and in that case Octavion's power allowed him to win. So who was most powerful, Octavion or Antony? Octavion was the most powerful as he conquered with his "title and underlings."

quote:
Again, the person who does impressive things entirely on his own is far more impressive than the person who relied on thousands of others to make his mark. Underlings give you power, but take them away, and there goes the power they gave.


This is a statement that is completely bereft of factual reality. Shoon VII was a 36th level Necromancer/Archmage. Acererak was a tops, 26th level Controller (Wizard). Shoon VII inherited and maintained his empire by his magical prowess as well as his ability to lead his empire. He stepped down to pursue lichdom, not for any other reason.

What did Acererak do again? Oh, that's right. He beat up a bunch of primative archfey (who pretended to be gods). Emmanuel Williams is a professional boxer that looks amazing to the common person, until he gets beat like the loser he was in 84 seconds. Just because Acererak beat up some low grade chumps that couldn't hack it as real deities, doesn't make his victory worth noting.

On the other hand, here is a complete listing of Shoon VII's victories:

  • 1) He was so skilled at spell battles that he had already slain at least twelve archmages before he even became emperor.
  • 2) As emperor, Shoon VII made sure that he had full control of the subtlest details of his empire. He immediately demanded a vow of loyalty (enforced magically) from each of the calephs arcane. Some refused and were killed; others accepted and were rewarded with riches. The caleph arcane of Memnon was one who refused, as did the mages under him, so Shoon VII killed them all and proceeded to rule the guild arcane of Memnon himself.
  • 3) In 326 DR, in Tashalar, one of the vassal states of the Empire, a wizard named Onsilur Maerdrathom convinced the imperial satraps to enforce legal protections for all mages in the region. This led to a temporary peace in the region. As long as the cities of the Tashtan Coast were squabbling amongst themselves, they could not pose a threat to his throne, so Shoon demanded that the imperial satraps, his vassals, remove Onsilur from power. They obeyed, and hired mercenary mages from Mulhorand to eliminate him.
  • 4) Shoon was responsible for the deaths of at least two dozen unicorns, which were sacrificed to create his most powerful magical artifacts. He even sanctioned hunts against them.
  • 5) In 355 DR, when the elves of the Snakewood tried to defend a small herd of seven unicorns from being captured and slain, Shoon VII ordered his legions to eradicate the elves. So many elves were killed that the headwaters of River Rimril turned red from blood. Two-thirds of the elves from two tribes of the forest were captured. Half of these were enslaved; on the other half, Shoon VII performed horrifying magical experiments.
  • 6) From the slaughtered elves and unicorns, Shoon VII was able to craft the magical artifact known as the Tome of the Unicorn. Shoon complete his enchantments on the Tome in 355 DR by soaking the metal book plates in the blood of twelve unicorns. Not wanting to waste the remains of the unicorns he had massacred, he used their horns to carve the Staff of Shoon.
  • 7) In 361 DR, Shoon VII discovered the hidden lair of Hazamir al Aktorral, a former regent of the Empire who had successfully become a lich. Shoon VII battled with Hazamir and turned him into a grisgol.

Citations annotated within: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shoon_VII

So, let's take a look here and expound on this:

1) He personally took on twelve archmages and wrecked them.

2) Compelled powerful caleph's to be loyal, through magic, and when some didn't he had them killed. No revolution, no taking on the man. Nope, they all took it because they knew him to personally to be so powerful, they couldn't do anything about it.

3) When Shoon VII got tired of Onsilur Maerdrathom, the "Ruling" Magister (Secrets of the Magister), and sent other mages to deal with him and had him killed. He wasn't even worth the time of Shoon VII to go have to do it himself. Now that is power, when you know the Magister to be an afterthought in terms of dealing with.

4) Shoon went and killed (12) unicorns, in Lurue's backyard and where was Lurue? Sitting there taking it like the kind of archfey that someone like Acererak would fight, instead of real wizards like Shoon VII.

5) Shoon VII, after having had his legions go dominate the Snakewood and do whatever they want, because.........power, took back some Elves and had Happy's Fun Time Hour with them. I didn't see anyone come to help them out because.... power.

Fun Fact Time: Rillifane Rallathil deity of protecting the woodlands didn't even show up to protect the woods or Elves. He just stood on by instead of doing his job. Seems like Shoon VII knows how to make them run, because... power.

Fun Fact Trivia Time: Which legions did Acererak control? None. Though, he did know how to have a good time enslaving a whole bunch of local tribal people, making them build the Tomb of the Nine Gods and then killed them. It's not like 3 million people or anything, but it's a start.... low level wannabe power.

yawn Whew.... sorry, I fell asleep when I was reading the Lich's guide to slavery and architecture there. It was that or read the autobiography of Acererak, but that's like, 2 pages?

6) Shoon VII then took the blood of the unicorns that Lurue watched get slaughtered but dare not do anything to respond to, and made a couple of high level artifacts with them. I just sort of see that like someone coming in and spiking the ball in the end zone, when the end zone is Lurue's face.

7) Shoon VII tracked down a lich, wrecked him, and turned it into a construct, hahaha. Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.

quote:
Acererak rose to power on his own, and did a lot more on his own than Shoon VII.


I am all eyes here waiting for that laundry list of accomplishments.

quote:
Without his underlings, he did far less than Acererak.


That would be incorrect of course. Please see above text, the URL's, and the citations within them.

quote:
Acererak not only elevated himself to power and did more on his own than Shoon VII, he also set his sights much, much higher. He didn't bother with an empire; it was beneath him.


Laughable. Absolutely laughable. Shoon VII's history (some of it outlined above) literally outlines his accomplishments, while the very brief history of Acererak says, "Much of Acererak's past history was forgotten. It was believed that he was originally from Oerth." That doesn't seem powerful. Acererak was so lackluster as a demi-lich that most of what he had done has been forgotten? TBPH: that's really, really pathetic. Shoon VII has a well chronicled history of dominance, unlike the lead singer (Acererak) of the lich power ballad band, The Pretenders.

Let's take a look at Acererak's sights being much, much higher... an attempted genocide by using an Atropol. How did that turn out? It didn't turn out well at all. It failed. So, someone can set their sights as high as they want, but if they don't accomplish it, it's just bluster and failure. Sounds like Acererak should go resurrect Picasso, take an art class, and work his way through his own Blue Period. :(

quote:
Acererak took on gods. Shoon VII couldn't kill a dragon.


Just because someone says it's 'x', doesn't 'x' make it. You can look at the tropey title "Lesser Deity" all you like, but the Nine Trickster Gods were just archfey. If a 26th level wizard can, a 36th level wizard can. Comparing the archfey to a dragon of Iryklathagra's like, is a non-comparison too. I know both Acererak and an archfey would be destroyed by Iryklathagra. Again: Acererak is 26th level, and Shoon VII 36th level.

quote:
Oh, and talking about someone centuries later as proof of their power? We're still talking about Robin Hood, and he was the leader of a band of dudes hanging out in the forest -- if he was even real. We're still talking about Jack the Ripper, and he was one dude with less than a dozen kills to his name. Fame does not equal power.


You're completely missing the point in conflating Robin Hood with Ghengis Khan. Robin Hood wasn't particularly powerful (if as you said he was real). He had some guys in the woods helping people out, allegedly. To minimize Ghengis Khan's dominance of the world to fame, is completely rewriting history. He dominated, through power, an enormous part of the world, reducing its volume of people by 1/3. Ghengis Khan compelled the world's DNA pool to share his to this day: that's power (again, not aggrandizing, but it is power). We're talking about Ghengis Khan because of his power, which made him infamous due to how he wielded and implemented it. Acererak's power was so diminutive no one even remembers what he did.

As always Master Rupert: I appreciate the spirited debate! :)

Best regards,






"What did Acererak do again? Oh, that's right. He beat up a bunch of primative archfey (who pretended to be gods)."

Wow... Primitive Archfey? I cannot recall one primitive archfey to date. Most of them are surpassingly intelligent along with spells and abilities that would make most mortals think they are gods, yes. I'm not sure you understand the concept of archfey entirely.

A lesser archfey would make Drizzt Do'Urden look like a novice encounter. Again a generic LeShay would wipe the floor with Drizzt. Then add class levels... that LeShay would be insanely epic. Then imagine a Archfey??

The Winterking? The Autumn Queen? What about Hyrsam?? Archfey Prince of fools? Beings like that cannot be defeated by a demi-lich no matter their power-level.

Archfey are divine rank 0 by design as a generic standard. Imagine fighting Titiana or Oberon? Imagine fighting The Queen of Air and Darkness. All 3 are Archfey. Yes, you have lesser Archfey, but they are all so powerful that you have to be an epic level PC to even do 1d4 damage to them.

Shoon 7 must have been beyond epic in 3.5ED to do any of this. Karsus himself could barely get rid of a cabal of Phaerimm destroying his homeland. lol. Karsus and his Netherese friends needed the elves and their High Magic to even contain that problem. Hence the Sharn Wall. Now destroyed and never correctly sealed as far as I know.

So a Heard of 7 Unicorns... (ultra powerful unto themselves), and two seperate green elf clans with powerful heroes full of powerful druids and clerics and favored souls and rangers of extraordinary legend.
cpthero2 Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 21:34:26
Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,

quote:
I certainly doubt a Demi-Lich is more powerful than a Arch-Fey. A LeShay alone would more than likely destroy a Demi-Lich, phylactery and all. And a generic LeShay is not an Arch-Fey. I've never heard of Shoon 7 or his genocide of the elves of the snakewood, but to slay 9 Arch-Fey (whom are obviously powerful enough to play themselves off as gods) seems ludicrous. Even Larloch would be hard pressed to do this. I doubt Karsus could even do that. 1, 2, maybe 4 Arch-Fey die, but 9??


Demi-lich is just a template. There are things that come with it, but it is the inherent power behind the template that matters. Acererak was a 26th level Controller (Wizard) in 4e and a 20th level Wizard in 5e. On the other hand, Shoon VII was a 31st level/5th level Archmage.

As to Primal Spirits/Arch-Fey (same power level) here is from Dragon Magazine, p.61, explaining it:

quote:
Nature Spirits and Fey Powers

Character who use the primal power source venerate beast lords and archfey in a manner not unlike divine worship. Other sources for primal evocations include, but are not limited to, the following primal spirits and archfey.

The Earthmother (Primal Spirit. Unaligned): Despite being called 'the Goddess' among the Ffolk, the Earthmother is not a divine being.


Part of the issue too is that the initial writings of Acererak from S1: Tomb of Horrors, which was 1e, didn't even give him a stat block. They just wrote his skull as having 50HP and he did stuff. It was pretty low key. When you look at Acererak in 4e/5e, he is 20th and 26th level, respectively. Not all that powerful. So, yeah, when you see him able to take on Arch-Fey, it is silly, but he supposedly did. Which then means, if he can, Shoon VII would have decimated those (9) like it was free Arch-Fey Frying Friday.

quote:
I'm very intrigued by this. Also, Unicorns aren't roaming the forests of Faerun in heards, they are truly a rare encounter. I would imagine divine intervention would occur if a group of unicorns and an entire forest of elves were slaughtered and tortured. Are the forest deities of Faerun sleeping during this time? They sent no divine champions to defend the slaughter in the Snakewood?


Exactly my point. Lurue and Rillifane Rallathil didn't send any aspect, manifestation or avatar to deal with Shoon VII. They didn't because they knew Shoon VII and his boys would wreck them. That is exactly the point I was making with Master Rupert and Master LordofBones.

quote:
I assume they were Green elves? (Wild elves). If that is the case, then I would imagine many clerics and druids and rangers and scouts. Likely in service to Fenmarel Mestarine or Solonor Thelandira. Two clans of green elves with powerful heroes, (Not to mention several unicorns together are powerful and magical unto themselves.) fighting for their survival and homeland is a wickedly powerful thing to destroy or enslave and torture. I'm sure the Snakewood has Crossroads and Fey mounds. Almost all existing forests in Faerun do. I'm sure there was at least 1 powerful Hierophant in each clan. Also, what about Treants and Fey creatures? Did they fight for the Unicorns as well? Powerful clerics and druids can summon powerful celestials and fey to battle with them.


Exactly my point again. This is well documented that Shoon VII did all that, regardless of everything that would have been leveled against him, and he still beat them up like chumps. Shoon VII is vastly more powerful than Acererak. I mean, it is just really obvious.

Great points you made there!

Best regards,












cpthero2 Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 20:22:10
Master Rupert,

As always, thank you for the reply! :)

I responded to Learned Scribe Delnyn on 03 Mar 20 @ 03:19:03 with the following reply:

quote:
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.

Best regards,


I think when you say, "I think it's quite relevant, when we're talking about who's more powerful, to look at what they are capable of doing by themselves. You're the one who brought up the comparison.", with a focus being brought to the comparison, my intention was to focus on power.

Even though I look at power in what I feel to be its most significant form, power projection and output, you both [Master Rupert & Master LordofBones] are very focused on the fight itself (which I find inconsequential) between these two, so lets look at the data:

Shoon VII

  • 2nd Edition: 36th level Wizard
  • 3rd Edition: 31st level Necromancer, 5th level Archmage


Acererak

  • 4th Edition: 26th level Controller (Wizard)
  • 5th Edition: 20th level Wizard


Acererak is underwhelming in comparison. Shoon VII's capacity is clearly far superior in stats alone, but as I said: he did something with his power, he's not a failure like Acererak, who can't even get his genocide right, but Shoon VII certainly did.

quote:
You're talking about projecting power, as if that's all it takes to be powerful -- but if all of your accomplishments rest on a title and underlings, does that really make you powerful?


Yes........yes it does. How many real world examples would you like, as an example we can relate too, to prove that it isn't the individuals capacity to fight in an alley fight, but what they do with that power that matters? I mean, did Emperor Octavion show up in a row boat by himself, and Antonius as well in a row boat to settle their differences to see who is the most powerful? No, they fought it out at the Battle of Actium. The power of Octavion and the power of Antony/Cleopatra allow them to project that power and dominate, and in that case Octavion's power allowed him to win. So who was most powerful, Octavion or Antony? Octavion was the most powerful as he conquered with his "title and underlings."

quote:
Again, the person who does impressive things entirely on his own is far more impressive than the person who relied on thousands of others to make his mark. Underlings give you power, but take them away, and there goes the power they gave.


This is a statement that is completely bereft of factual reality. Shoon VII was a 36th level Necromancer/Archmage. Acererak was a tops, 26th level Controller (Wizard). Shoon VII inherited and maintained his empire by his magical prowess as well as his ability to lead his empire. He stepped down to pursue lichdom, not for any other reason.

What did Acererak do again? Oh, that's right. He beat up a bunch of primative archfey (who pretended to be gods). Emmanuel Williams is a professional boxer that looks amazing to the common person, until he gets beat like the loser he was in 84 seconds. Just because Acererak beat up some low grade chumps that couldn't hack it as real deities, doesn't make his victory worth noting.

On the other hand, here is a complete listing of Shoon VII's victories:

  • 1) He was so skilled at spell battles that he had already slain at least twelve archmages before he even became emperor.
  • 2) As emperor, Shoon VII made sure that he had full control of the subtlest details of his empire. He immediately demanded a vow of loyalty (enforced magically) from each of the calephs arcane. Some refused and were killed; others accepted and were rewarded with riches. The caleph arcane of Memnon was one who refused, as did the mages under him, so Shoon VII killed them all and proceeded to rule the guild arcane of Memnon himself.
  • 3) In 326 DR, in Tashalar, one of the vassal states of the Empire, a wizard named Onsilur Maerdrathom convinced the imperial satraps to enforce legal protections for all mages in the region. This led to a temporary peace in the region. As long as the cities of the Tashtan Coast were squabbling amongst themselves, they could not pose a threat to his throne, so Shoon demanded that the imperial satraps, his vassals, remove Onsilur from power. They obeyed, and hired mercenary mages from Mulhorand to eliminate him.
  • 4) Shoon was responsible for the deaths of at least two dozen unicorns, which were sacrificed to create his most powerful magical artifacts. He even sanctioned hunts against them.
  • 5) In 355 DR, when the elves of the Snakewood tried to defend a small herd of seven unicorns from being captured and slain, Shoon VII ordered his legions to eradicate the elves. So many elves were killed that the headwaters of River Rimril turned red from blood. Two-thirds of the elves from two tribes of the forest were captured. Half of these were enslaved; on the other half, Shoon VII performed horrifying magical experiments.
  • 6) From the slaughtered elves and unicorns, Shoon VII was able to craft the magical artifact known as the Tome of the Unicorn. Shoon complete his enchantments on the Tome in 355 DR by soaking the metal book plates in the blood of twelve unicorns. Not wanting to waste the remains of the unicorns he had massacred, he used their horns to carve the Staff of Shoon.
  • 7) In 361 DR, Shoon VII discovered the hidden lair of Hazamir al Aktorral, a former regent of the Empire who had successfully become a lich. Shoon VII battled with Hazamir and turned him into a grisgol.

Citations annotated within: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shoon_VII

So, let's take a look here and expound on this:

1) He personally took on twelve archmages and wrecked them.

2) Compelled powerful caleph's to be loyal, through magic, and when some didn't he had them killed. No revolution, no taking on the man. Nope, they all took it because they knew him to personally to be so powerful, they couldn't do anything about it.

3) When Shoon VII got tired of Onsilur Maerdrathom, the "Ruling" Magister (Secrets of the Magister), and sent other mages to deal with him and had him killed. He wasn't even worth the time of Shoon VII to go have to do it himself. Now that is power, when you know the Magister to be an afterthought in terms of dealing with.

4) Shoon went and killed (12) unicorns, in Lurue's backyard and where was Lurue? Sitting there taking it like the kind of archfey that someone like Acererak would fight, instead of real wizards like Shoon VII.

5) Shoon VII, after having had his legions go dominate the Snakewood and do whatever they want, because.........power, took back some Elves and had Happy's Fun Time Hour with them. I didn't see anyone come to help them out because.... power.

Fun Fact Time: Rillifane Rallathil deity of protecting the woodlands didn't even show up to protect the woods or Elves. He just stood on by instead of doing his job. Seems like Shoon VII knows how to make them run, because... power.

Fun Fact Trivia Time: Which legions did Acererak control? None. Though, he did know how to have a good time enslaving a whole bunch of local tribal people, making them build the Tomb of the Nine Gods and then killed them. It's not like 3 million people or anything, but it's a start.... low level wannabe power.

yawn Whew.... sorry, I fell asleep when I was reading the Lich's guide to slavery and architecture there. It was that or read the autobiography of Acererak, but that's like, 2 pages?

6) Shoon VII then took the blood of the unicorns that Lurue watched get slaughtered but dare not do anything to respond to, and made a couple of high level artifacts with them. I just sort of see that like someone coming in and spiking the ball in the end zone, when the end zone is Lurue's face.

7) Shoon VII tracked down a lich, wrecked him, and turned it into a construct, hahaha. Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.

quote:
Acererak rose to power on his own, and did a lot more on his own than Shoon VII.


I am all eyes here waiting for that laundry list of accomplishments.

quote:
Without his underlings, he did far less than Acererak.


That would be incorrect of course. Please see above text, the URL's, and the citations within them.

quote:
Acererak not only elevated himself to power and did more on his own than Shoon VII, he also set his sights much, much higher. He didn't bother with an empire; it was beneath him.


Laughable. Absolutely laughable. Shoon VII's history (some of it outlined above) literally outlines his accomplishments, while the very brief history of Acererak says, "Much of Acererak's past history was forgotten. It was believed that he was originally from Oerth." That doesn't seem powerful. Acererak was so lackluster as a demi-lich that most of what he had done has been forgotten? TBPH: that's really, really pathetic. Shoon VII has a well chronicled history of dominance, unlike the lead singer (Acererak) of the lich power ballad band, The Pretenders.

Let's take a look at Acererak's sights being much, much higher... an attempted genocide by using an Atropol. How did that turn out? It didn't turn out well at all. It failed. So, someone can set their sights as high as they want, but if they don't accomplish it, it's just bluster and failure. Sounds like Acererak should go resurrect Picasso, take an art class, and work his way through his own Blue Period. :(

quote:
Acererak took on gods. Shoon VII couldn't kill a dragon.


Just because someone says it's 'x', doesn't 'x' make it. You can look at the tropey title "Lesser Deity" all you like, but the Nine Trickster Gods were just archfey. If a 26th level wizard can, a 36th level wizard can. Comparing the archfey to a dragon of Iryklathagra's like, is a non-comparison too. I know both Acererak and an archfey would be destroyed by Iryklathagra. Again: Acererak is 26th level, and Shoon VII 36th level.

quote:
Oh, and talking about someone centuries later as proof of their power? We're still talking about Robin Hood, and he was the leader of a band of dudes hanging out in the forest -- if he was even real. We're still talking about Jack the Ripper, and he was one dude with less than a dozen kills to his name. Fame does not equal power.


You're completely missing the point in conflating Robin Hood with Ghengis Khan. Robin Hood wasn't particularly powerful (if as you said he was real). He had some guys in the woods helping people out, allegedly. To minimize Ghengis Khan's dominance of the world to fame, is completely rewriting history. He dominated, through power, an enormous part of the world, reducing its volume of people by 1/3. Ghengis Khan compelled the world's DNA pool to share his to this day: that's power (again, not aggrandizing, but it is power). We're talking about Ghengis Khan because of his power, which made him infamous due to how he wielded and implemented it. Acererak's power was so diminutive no one even remembers what he did.

As always Master Rupert: I appreciate the spirited debate! :)

Best regards,


Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 19:52:47
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

The Story of Shoon VII is told in Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea, both 2e products, by the illustrious Mr. Schend. It builds off Ed's original work in the old gray box set (and Dragon #mumble before that AJA!) in the write-up of the Tome of the Unicorn.



Am I wrong in my assumption?
ericlboyd Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 19:14:23
The Story of Shoon VII is told in Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea, both 2e products, by the illustrious Mr. Schend. It builds off Ed's original work in the old gray box set (and Dragon #mumble before that AJA!) in the write-up of the Tome of the Unicorn.
Copper Elven Vampire Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 18:24:42
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

I am definitely not impressed when (9) fakers who title themselves as gods turn out to be Archfey that I feel any of those demiliches on the list could have defeated. Sure, archfey are powerful, but a demilich is going to mop the floor with them.

I also consider power to be outcome. One on one is great in a street fight. When you command enough power to kill 3 million people.....that's power: evil as hell, and not to be approved of, but power nonetheless.

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Meh, anyone that kills nine deities is going to impress me more than someone with a larger -- but entirely indirect -- death count. Yes, he's responsible for a lot of deaths, but he didn't commit those deaths himself -- this is more a display of political power, not personal magical might.





I certainly doubt a Demi-Lich is more powerful than a Arch-Fey. A LeShay alone would more than likely destroy a Demi-Lich, phylactery and all. And a generic LeShay is not an Arch-Fey. I've never heard of Shoon 7 or his genocide of the elves of the snakewood, but to slay 9 Arch-Fey (whom are obviously powerful enough to play themselves off as gods) seems ludicrous. Even Larloch would be hard pressed to do this. I doubt Karsus could even do that. 1, 2, maybe 4 Arch-Fey die, but 9??

I'm very intrigued by this. Also, Unicorns aren't roaming the forests of Faerun in heards, they are truly a rare encounter. I would imagine divine intervention would occur if a group of unicorns and an entire forest of elves were slaughtered and tortured. Are the forest deities of Faerun sleeping during this time? They sent no divine champions to defend the slaughter in the Snakewood?

I assume they were Green elves? (Wild elves). If that is the case, then I would imagine many clerics and druids and rangers and scouts. Likely in service to Fenmarel Mestarine or Solonor Thelandira. Two clans of green elves with powerful heroes, (Not to mention several unicorns together are powerful and magical unto themselves.) fighting for their survival and homeland is a wickedly powerful thing to destroy or enslave and torture. I'm sure the Snakewood has Crossroads and Fey mounds. Almost all existing forests in Faerun do. I'm sure there was at least 1 powerful Hierophant in each clan. Also, what about Treants and Fey creatures? Did they fight for the Unicorns as well? Powerful clerics and druids can summon powerful celestials and fey to battle with them.

Where can I read more about this?

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