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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  07:32:42  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
If you're a rogue of a particular deity, and you agree to the call of a particular god, what class combo would you choose?

Choices:

Rogue/ Cleric
Rogue/ Temple Raider
Rogue/ Swashbuckler
Rogue/ Assassin
Rogue/ Beguiler
Rogue/ Scout
Rogue/ Wizard
Rogue/ Shadowlord
Rogue/ Whisperknife
Rogue/ Ranger
Rogue/ Favored Soul
Rogue/ Divine Seeker

(Anonymous Vote)

Edited by - Copper Elven Vampire on 08 Mar 2020 07:35:16

Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  10:08:50  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
CEV, is it possible to get a Rogue/Paladin option on the poll? Some players enjoy the gray guards and shadowbane inquisitors.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  15:22:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It depends on the particular god, obviously.

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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  17:13:26  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

CEV, is it possible to get a Rogue/Paladin option on the poll? Some players enjoy the gray guards and shadowbane inquisitors.



Like WR said, it depends on your deity. Paladins are too stiff in their lawful ways for most rogue powers, but some do offer PrCs that allow Paladins to do much more seedy work for their church.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  19:28:19  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you're a rogue/ cleric... Nothing feels better than destroying undead, blasting an enemy with a Flame Strike spell and then sneak attacking them unaware.
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Diffan
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USA
4015 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2020 :  05:06:09  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me, it really depends on Edition. I have a Rogue|Paladin hybrid [4e] of the Raven Queen - Kelemvor's consort in my Realms - and he's also a dhamphir (uses the Vyrloka race) and he's pretty much on missions to destroy undead creatures.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2020 :  05:30:28  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So a Shadow elf? A Shadar-Kai elf? is he/she a warrior or a spell caster? Arcane or divine? Or possibly both? A Duskblade or Bladesinger?

Travenrez Nightfrost: CN Shadow-Kith Shadar-Kai elf Male of The City of Gloaming. CR 29; Rogue 5/ Duskblade 20. Master "Shade-Killer" of the guild. Ex-Royal Guard of The Raven Queen on the Plane of Shadow. Commander of the Shadow legions in the City of Gloaming. Ex-patriot of the Shadowfell.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4015 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2020 :  06:50:58  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

So a Shadow elf? A Shadar-Kai elf? is he/she a warrior or a spell caster? Arcane or divine? Or possibly both? A Duskblade or Bladesinger?


My character? Hes a 8th level Vyrloka Rogue|Paladin of the Raven Queen. The best way to convert him to 3.5 would be as a LG half-vampire/human rogue 3/ paladin 3 with notable feats Exotic Weapon Prof (bastard sword) and probably devoted Inquisitor. Adding Smite to +2d6 sneak attack on top of a 1d10 weapon is awesome.

In 4e the guy has some evasion powers, and ways to utilize both Charisma and Dex into his attacks while maintaining the ability to lock down enemies - which doesn't translate well to 3.5. maybe the Stand Still feat too?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  07:02:19  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

So a Shadow elf? A Shadar-Kai elf? is he/she a warrior or a spell caster? Arcane or divine? Or possibly both? A Duskblade or Bladesinger?


My character? Hes a 8th level Vyrloka Rogue|Paladin of the Raven Queen. The best way to convert him to 3.5 would be as a LG half-vampire/human rogue 3/ paladin 3 with notable feats Exotic Weapon Prof (bastard sword) and probably devoted Inquisitor. Adding Smite to +2d6 sneak attack on top of a 1d10 weapon is awesome.

In 4e the guy has some evasion powers, and ways to utilize both Charisma and Dex into his attacks while maintaining the ability to lock down enemies - which doesn't translate well to 3.5. maybe the Stand Still feat too?



in 3.5ed my guys would eat him up. He seems cool but you have very much going on. I would let him into my campaign for the sake of fairness.
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Diffan
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USA
4015 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  19:43:01  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


in 3.5ed my guys would eat him up. He seems cool but you have very much going on. I would let him into my campaign for the sake of fairness.



Well his is only 6th level (in this conversion) so it stands to reason that would happen in a high level game, not to mention that I sort of despise high-level play in 3.5. Rocket Tag simply isn't my Jam.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2020 :  21:32:58  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, he would level up extremely quick if he did join one of my High spell adventures. That could be a good thing.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4015 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2020 :  19:55:16  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Actually, he would level up extremely quick if he did join one of my High spell adventures. That could be a good thing.



Unless certain death occurs. Something that's far more likely to happen in a single round to a 6th level character - not to mention there'd be nothing combat-wise that he could do that would be appropriate for such high level campaigns. At best he'd have a +9 or +10 to attack rolls. Most 18th+ CR monsters have ACs in the mid- to high-20's.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2020 :  18:20:48  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Actually, he would level up extremely quick if he did join one of my High spell adventures. That could be a good thing.



Unless certain death occurs. Something that's far more likely to happen in a single round to a 6th level character - not to mention there'd be nothing combat-wise that he could do that would be appropriate for such high level campaigns. At best he'd have a +9 or +10 to attack rolls. Most 18th+ CR monsters have ACs in the mid- to high-20's.



You misunderstand. My PC's or NPC's would never leave you to die if you were 6th level in a epic module. That's what I mean. You would level up big time just based on XP per encounter. Go out of the box for a hot second and imagine this... A party of 7. YOU are the seventh. All 6 remaining Epic level PC's have to basically babysit you as you cast paltry spells that only impress your guardians slightly by how quickly you learn them. You are something special and young. You are barely 15'th level yet. (Powerful to lesser beings, but nothing to epic adventures.)
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1261 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  04:02:03  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's not the problem. The problem is that anything your party can facetank is liable to get him killed. You're immune to circle of death, he isn't.

Then you'd have to deal with the in-universe reason as to why people who have to deal with extraplanar threats are dragging around someone who dies the instant the balor sneezes in his general direction. Epic level adventures are basically rocket tag, as Diffan pointed out, and, well, it's not fair to either party. Diffan's character can't contribute, and your epic PCs have bigger things to worry about without Diffan's character failing his Reflex save against some dragon's accidental sneeze.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4015 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  12:12:43  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's sort of what I was getting at, there's nothing he could contribute to and that Really wouldn't sound fun. Even after a few encounters of just being a bystander and somehow still getting XP (for what, who know?) It would still take a few sessions to hit any level where he could help.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  17:29:27  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking of the Novel about that young girl who was blessed/cursed with Spellfire. Her and her husband/Boyfriend? were very low level NPC's being protected by epic level NPC's. I think her husbands go to spell was Magic Missiles, lol. Being hunted and attacked by Malaugrym and Manshoon. That's epic level stuff there. I was thinking along those lines. Sorry. In the end your low level PC would definitely contribute to the party, even as a liability. At least in my eyes.

In every campaign I've ever been involved in, low level PC's don't just die from a dragon's sneeze as some put it. Not if you're a good DM. Not if you have Epic PC's babysitting you.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34143 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  17:37:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I was thinking of the Novel about that young girl who was blessed/cursed with Spellfire. Her and her husband/Boyfriend? were very low level NPC's being protected by epic level NPC's. I think her husbands go to spell was Magic Missiles, lol. Being hunted and attacked by Malaugrym and Manshoon. That's epic level stuff there. I was thinking along those lines. Sorry. In the end your low level PC would definitely contribute to the party, even as a liability. At least in my eyes.

In every campaign I've ever been involved in, low level PC's don't just die from a dragon's sneeze as some put it. Not if you're a good DM. Not if you have Epic PC's babysitting you.



How is a liability a contribution?

The problem people are pointing out is that babysat by epics or not, a lot of attacks/effects that epics could withstand or ignore are going to hit a low-level person. No amount of babysitting is going to keep area of effect spells from landing, or turn hopeless saving throws into easy saves, or anything like that.

And sure, a DM could mitigate that, and make sure everything that happens could be survived by the low-level character -- but then the epic characters are unneeded.

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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  17:50:15  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I was thinking of the Novel about that young girl who was blessed/cursed with Spellfire. Her and her husband/Boyfriend? were very low level NPC's being protected by epic level NPC's. I think her husbands go to spell was Magic Missiles, lol. Being hunted and attacked by Malaugrym and Manshoon. That's epic level stuff there. I was thinking along those lines. Sorry. In the end your low level PC would definitely contribute to the party, even as a liability. At least in my eyes.

In every campaign I've ever been involved in, low level PC's don't just die from a dragon's sneeze as some put it. Not if you're a good DM. Not if you have Epic PC's babysitting you.



How is a liability a contribution?

The problem people are pointing out is that babysat by epics or not, a lot of attacks/effects that epics could withstand or ignore are going to hit a low-level person. No amount of babysitting is going to keep area of effect spells from landing, or turn hopeless saving throws into easy saves, or anything like that.

And sure, a DM could mitigate that, and make sure everything that happens could be survived by the low-level character -- but then the epic characters are unneeded.



Yes, and that's how I run and play in campaigns. Maybe your low level PC disables or bypasses a lock while the Epic's are doing their thing? Maybe the low level PC uses his/her simple skills to do the mundane things that need to get done during an encounter.

"I need to find that trap door while all my epic companions fight off certain death."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
34143 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  21:43:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  22:36:00  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1261 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  22:57:54  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's... fairly insulting.

You're telling the guy his character can tag along as the lackey.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  23:54:20  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!



Wouldn't it be more productive if the lower level characters have the own separate mission in another place? The progress, success or failure of the lower level characters impacts the progress, success or failure of the epic level characters. So the lower level characters do not accompany the epic level characters to the 88th layer of the Abyss and fight Demogorgon in his fortress surrounded by servitor demons. Instead, they
  • delay or disrupt cult operations
  • intercept messages and infiltrating demons to and from the Abyss
  • garner spiritual, legal and possibly military support from churches, governments and other organizations
  • collect spells and equipment for the epic characters and deny equipment to Demogorgon's enemies.


How well the lower-level characters perform their mission will make the epic character's mission easier or potentially impossible. This raises the stakes for low-level characters without putting them into impossible situations. The last thing epic characters need is to, well, babysit their henchmen while fighting Demogorgon or some other cosmic threat.
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Delnyn
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USA
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Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  00:13:52  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This issue hits home for me. My namesake and the epic party in which he was the so-called "buffbot" had to rescue wood elven hostages from Menzoberranzan. The wood elves were non-combatants. Talk about babysitting, even though the elves are reasonably good troopers. It was a pain in the arse making sure the drow - and other Underdark baddies! - did not kill any of the elves as the party made its way out of Menzoberranzan and the Underdark. Remember faezress interferes with divination and teleportation magic, so those shortcuts were not a feasible option.

I would surmise that epic PC's would generally resent being put in a similar caretaker position with lower-level PC's. Please clear this with all parties before even attempting such a mission. I have some really bad feelings about it.

Now that I think about it, here is a quest for an super-duper epic party. [sarcasm]Rescue and babysit 1st level human commoners from Asmodeus' fortress of Malsheem until everyone returns safely to the Prime Material Plane.[/sarcasm]

Edited by - Delnyn on 23 Mar 2020 00:19:11
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34143 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  02:47:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!



I can't imagine anyone willingly playing the peon for someone else's characters.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  19:52:26  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So in other words, they're doing the grunt work that the epics could do but don't want to bother with.

They're henchmen, in other words.



Bingo!!



I can't imagine anyone willingly playing the peon for someone else's characters.



I can. Maybe they were all put into place by forces unseen? Maybe the low-level PC has some hidden power that the Epic's know little about, except that it's imperative to keep him/her alive. I could seriously play a Low-level PC with Epics any day. Henchman, Lacky, whatever. It's a great way to level up quickly and see how others play epic level PC's. I've never played a game that was "fair" or DM'd a game that was "fair" so to say.

I don't try to kill the PC's or NPC's, but if I'm playing a Mezzoloth against the party, then I expect them to know how to play. I.E. use your skills and feats and abilities accordingly for your character to succeed.

Say you're a 10'th level Rogue... playing with Epic PC's that are all 21'st level to 25'th level. You can still find trap doors, disable or bypass traps, sneak attack to hurt or distract the enemy as your companion lays the killing blow. Or maybe you have a unique profession that needs to be preserved and only you can perform.

Maybe you're the only surviving blood member of a particular family line and epic beastie types want you dead. Maybe the Blood-Coven of The Vampire Manshoon wants you turned in a vampire for their own needs and as a 10th level rogue you cannot survive on your own.

IDK... I can see many possibilities to be a LL PC in a epic game, even as a Liability.

And if I were playing one of the said epic PC's then I'd have no problem with the challenge of helping babysit a much weaker PC. I mean, that makes for a great game.

Imagine this... 10'th level rogue and last of his blood line throws a perfectly aimed dagger at the Abyssal Retriever 60 feet away from him and bounces off the creatures eye. The 10th level rogue is frustrated that his dagger was not enchanted, for the trow was a dead-aim and should have hit.

The Retriever; a monstrous spider-like denizen of the lower planes turned its multiple eyes on the rogue. Without thought, seeing the target in question, the demon-spider rushed at the rogue with stunning speed.

The 10th level rogue broke the bonds of the fear and terror the Retriever placed on him and he darted backwards with twin shortswords now in hand.

As the spider-demon from the lower planes closed quickly on the rogue, another character was paying close attention amidst the chaos of the battle and suddenly burst into lightning-quick motion.

Just then, not even 10 feet away from the doomed rogue, a Star elf Rogue/ Duskblade appeared on top of the Retrievers back with two swords drawn and ready to plunge. The Star elf was successful on his Sneak Attack and actually rolled a Critical hit for the sneak attack as well. On top of a successful critical hit with a sneak attack, the star elf already had his blade suffused with the spell power of Disintegration. Within a few quick actions the demon-spider was reduced to nothingness as the star elf rogue/ Duskblade hurried the 10th level rogue to better shelter.

Just saying.... I see nothing wrong with that role in a game on either ends of the game-play.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34143 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  21:25:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You, as the epic player, may think it's fun to be a useless peon dragged along on an adventure that you can't help with. I can guarantee you'd find few people that wouldd agree.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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