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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1033 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  19:52:36  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maztica is just...no... I have no use for it in my Realms. We don't need to rehash real world cultures and events in our fantasy world more than "ye olde medieval setting". For the same reason I don't think I need the far east or hordelands the way they are. Somehow Maztica just feels SO forced that I disregard it entirely.

Lazy.
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
775 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  20:05:17  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iím in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. Iím not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed), but frankly I wanted my Mesoamerican myth to reach its full potential and not be pushed to the side. I didnít want drow and Amnians and cities that looked like Waterdeep or Baldurís Gate. I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool. I have a tattoo of Huitzilopochtli now exactly because I fell in love with a culture Iíd have understood very little about had I not researched for years now. I can honestly say I know more about Aztec, Mayan, and Toltec myth than I do my own culture and that happened because of Maztica. It canít all be that bad.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
665 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  21:05:32  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Feels like your early take, Ed's, and canon could come to a nice consensus here: a revolt from a religious underclass (perhaps an enslaved ethnic group) overthrows the magical Imaskari Empire, and the new nation of Mulhorand is built on the ruins, frequently warring with itself until Unther breaks away and becomes the focus of their ire.

You keep the broad shape of history, you keep the anti-arcane sentiment across the region, and you cut the goofy Earth stuff. I like it.

Only downside being that we now have two distinct "here a human empire of mages stood until it fell and now the land is desertified" that Anauroch/Netheril has.



Yup, and I think Scott Bennie when writing Re and Enlil as two God-Kings of human origin, who founded Mulhorand and Unther, are visibly inspired by Vaznurhor and Narlmur.

With the history of Netheril's fall repeating itself...I think that might be intentional. Shar's Cycles of Night in Ed's rather than death of worlds (at least not only), for example are about her followers destroying themselves:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/702909568947322883

But I think think this also might mean the Cycles of Night bring fall to great civilizations, hence the similarities between the precursor to Mulhorand and Unther/proto-Imaskar (as it's not exactly Imaskar, as it didn't seem to be in Raurin in Ed's Realms.)

(To be clear, I know the vast majority of Netherese Arcanists, and even most of population, didn't worship Shar, but I think Shar manipulating Netheril to fall.)

Edited by - Baltas on 10 Feb 2020 21:09:06
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

274 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  21:39:41  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
#8234;Grumpy Hamtula, I just want to briefly call out how comforting it is to know other folks who play in this space also pray to old gods. Thank you for that! I hope whoever at your table does has a good day #128155;#8236;

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  21:53:29  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Grumpy Hamtula, I just want to briefly call out how comforting it is to know other folks who play in this space also pray to old gods. Thank you for that! I hope whoever at your table does has a good day



I'm one of those people, for what it's worth, and I shall pass the well wishes on to the others. :) I am an Egyptian pantheon type (with some occasional forays into a bit of the Western ceremonial tradition), and I also have players who follow the real-world Celtic and Norse pantheons. The religious and nonreligious mix in my group is pretty diverse, so we end up having quite interesting discussions about such things when they become relevant to gameplay.
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Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  22:06:39  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Iím in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. Iím not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed) . . . . I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool . . . .



Perhaps it might be more accurate of me to say that the Helmite/Maztica situation has the potential to be problematic, depending on how the matter is handled at the table, rather than to say that it is unquestionably problematic. However, I will admit to not having delved deeply into that source material, so I do not have as thorough an understanding of it as you do.

I do echo the sentiment, however, on thoroughly exploring the various myths and cultures to understand and present them to their fullest potential. As you mentioned, the Western tradition has been well-mined, especially in fleshing out the Lower Planes, and it's quite fun to trace the lineage of D&D's many fiends to their inspirations in the various Western myths and scriptures. I ended up down quite a rabbit hole looking into Asmodeus, who has quite a fun line of development throughout history. I have something of an interest in the medieval and Renaissance grimoire tradition, and it's come in handy when discussing in-game topics more than once.

In terms of applying cultural research at the game table directly, I had a player some time ago who wanted to play a wandering swordsman from Wa. I loaned him my Kara-Tur and OA materials, but we also talked extensively about where that material might miss the mark and how he might go beyond it respectfully, as he had a strong interest in presenting the character as authentically as he could. I also encouraged him to read up on real-world Japanese history and spirituality to get a better sense of the culture that inspired Wa and Kozakura, and IMO his presentation of the character was greatly enhanced by it.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1033 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  22:41:07  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone else have a problem with the way the Shou dialogue is written in "engrish" in The Veiled Dragon? Just me? For that alone I would say including Mandarin-esque cultures in the Realms is problematic when handled without any tact or taste.

I think I like Wa/Kozakura because I really enjoyed Ishi in the Forgotten Realms comics and think she gave a neat perspective to the group - but she wasn't written to speak common like she was Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's.

Edited by - Seravin on 10 Feb 2020 22:44:39
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

274 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  22:56:16  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Does anyone else have a problem with the way the Shou dialogue is written in "engrish" in The Veiled Dragon? Just me? For that alone I would say including Mandarin-esque cultures in the Realms is problematic when handled without any tact or taste.

I think I like Wa/Kozakura because I really enjoyed Ishi in the Forgotten Realms comics and think she gave a neat perspective to the group - but she wasn't written to speak common like she was Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's.



I havenít read it myself, but I wouldnít trust anyone who didnít mind that.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1586 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  00:29:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy Hamatula

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Iím in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. Iím not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed) . . . . I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool . . . .



Perhaps it might be more accurate of me to say that the Helmite/Maztica situation has the potential to be problematic, depending on how the matter is handled at the table, rather than to say that it is unquestionably problematic. However, I will admit to not having delved deeply into that source material, so I do not have as thorough an understanding of it as you do.



I say that the problem is not the setting (Maztica itself), but the way it was implemented. In my experience, I feel like the 2e campaign guide encourages you to reenact the whole Conquista thing, and presents it as something good... but reading other campaign guides (such as Seethyr's, for instance) where such event is downplayed are much more approachable.

Myself, if I ever implement Maztica in my campaign, I would get rid of that stuff altogether.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopherís path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

274 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  01:33:18  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's just no reason to reenact colonial narratives in diverse fantasy inspirations, y'know? Same problem Chult has; fantasy black people can't just exist, they have to be colonized again. Ugh.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6999 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  02:39:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
There's just no reason to reenact colonial narratives in diverse fantasy inspirations, y'know? Same problem Chult has; fantasy black people can't just exist, they have to be colonized again. Ugh.
The other side of the same problem is "fantasy spanish people" and "fantasy mongol hordes" doing all that colonizing and conquering.

In my earliest DMing days I populated Sembia with "fantasy black people". Wealthy mercantile colonists who'd long ago originated from some generic exotic faraway tropical nation (originally unspecified, later comveniently assumed to be Chult). Because Sembia was only vaguely outlined and promised to remain open-ended, so why not use the opportunity to mix some color into the conspicuously pasty Heartlands?

I didn't have to "reject" subsequent lore published about Sembia. "Black Sembia" still worked well enough in all the important details, I only had to adjust trivial cosmetic descriptors on some published NPCs. Human racism seems entirely irrelevant in a world overrun by smarmy fey and murderous orcs.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Feb 2020 02:51:39
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Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  15:47:11  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zeromaru X and keftiu, I think you described the colonization problem in far better terms than I did. There's absolutely no need to promote colonialist narratives as positive things in which heroic character should engage. Might those things have occurred, per the canon? Perhaps so, but we need not portray them as good things. When the matter comes up at my table (which is admittedly rare), it is portrayed not as positive, but as a significant mark against Helm's servants and his church. In my Realms, Helm has also punished his church for having done such a thing in his name, and he has made it clear that it was not acceptable.

To the best of my ability, I strive to portray folks from Chult and Maztica as independent and powerful in their own right rather than risking falling into the trap of stereotypes and tropes that present them as somehow in need (ugh, ugh) of salvation or conquest on the part of outsiders. Maztica since its return at the end of the Sundering has become a powerful and independent trading power (though I've not delved into any details; currently the PCs are really only aware of it because such trade comes through Waterdeep). Chult is also a powerful trading region, and it is widely respected. I've shied away from doing any campaigns in that region, however, despite WOTC's recent material in Tomb of Annihilation because I feel I'm not familiar enough with it to do it anything approaching real justice. Perhaps later, when I've sorted out a way to filter the problems from the potential and consulted more materials written by people of color, I might turn my attention that way at the table. Right now? I think I'm likely to inadvertently perpetuate problems despite my best intentions.

Regarding the terrible dialect written into The Veiled Dragon, which Seravin pointed out, I haven't read that particular novel, but dialogue delivered in that way makes me cringe. I will admit to having been very ignorant of why this is a problem when I was younger, but I have thankfully benefited from the patience of others around me as I've aged and learned. Portrayals of any sort that clearly rely on offensive stereotypes and Hollywood misrepresentation have no place at my tables.

As a DM, I do my best to sort through problematic material to help players understand why we diverge from it in my games. I tend to view the problematic published material through the lens of history (i.e., it has significant problems and isn't table-appropriate, but it is an artifact that should be studied, if only as a reminder that future presentations must be better). I feel it's important that my players and I discuss the matter together to make sure that the whole group is working toward something better.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1989 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  20:59:23  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy Hamatula

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Iím in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. Iím not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed) . . . . I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool . . . .


Perhaps it might be more accurate of me to say that the Helmite/Maztica situation has the potential to be problematic, depending on how the matter is handled at the table, rather than to say that it is unquestionably problematic. However, I will admit to not having delved deeply into that source material,

Gosh, if all the straw men are not summoned and then denounced exactly in the prescribed words, that's terrible.
So untumblr. Isn't everything Problematic (TM) unless you don't ride the high horse hard enough?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8668 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  00:30:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I honestly wouldn't cut any areas from the setting. I just may not visit them, because a given campaign has no reason to go there. I will admit openly to liking the reshaping of Maztica that Seethyr's been working on (and I really liked his work on Lopango except that I favor warlock orcs serving a patron over sorcerous orcs). If I were to cut anything, it might be Osse, because its seen little to no development. Oh, and I would "redevelop" the moon such that what we "know" of as elves and humans end up being something else (and there being a reason they worship Leira).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
253 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  02:53:44  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't necessarily cut them from my play-setting; but I won't have anything to do with them.

For all the reasons stated prior, and more, I too agree with Maztica and the Shou region, and Al-Qadim.

Also; Chult.

I do not want Dinosaur Jungle in my quasi-medieval fantasy world. I just don't. That's all to that.

As far as Mulhorand and Unther, I much more enjoy thematically replacing the Egyptian God names, but keeping the entire theme alive. However, we never really get down there to play.

I too agree that all the Zulkirs and their respective Arts subtly at war with each other in Thay is WAY better than undead nation ruled by Tam. Not that I would allow that to happen, as my Realms don't go past published material into 4th and beyond.

Shade Enclave over Anauroch is also ignored.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6999 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  04:05:35  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.

Surprising to me that Shade could wreak such havoc while Mystra's meddling Chosen basically did nothing but look busy. Elminster's greatest achievement vs the Princes Shade was basically just deflecting their scrying attempts.

I recall an epic invasion by the Phaerimm... Cities besieged, nations reeling, vast territories turned to wasteland, while Chosens and High Mages were decimated in the desperate clash for Faerun's survival vs unstoppable invaders. Why did they not respond this way when the Evil Archwizard Shady Supermen flew city-battleship-fortresses over their homelands?

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8668 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  04:06:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Renin

I don't necessarily cut them from my play-setting; but I won't have anything to do with them.

For all the reasons stated prior, and more, I too agree with Maztica and the Shou region, and Al-Qadim.

Also; Chult.

I do not want Dinosaur Jungle in my quasi-medieval fantasy world. I just don't. That's all to that.

As far as Mulhorand and Unther, I much more enjoy thematically replacing the Egyptian God names, but keeping the entire theme alive. However, we never really get down there to play.

I too agree that all the Zulkirs and their respective Arts subtly at war with each other in Thay is WAY better than undead nation ruled by Tam. Not that I would allow that to happen, as my Realms don't go past published material into 4th and beyond.

Shade Enclave over Anauroch is also ignored.



One thing to note on Unther that I've always felt interesting, because it wasn't fly in your face.... there's a portion of it which was dinosaur filled. Its for this reason that I find it interesting that the dragonborn came through around there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33180 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  04:56:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.

Surprising to me that Shade could wreak such havoc while Mystra's meddling Chosen basically did nothing but look busy. Elminster's greatest achievement vs the Princes Shade was basically just deflecting their scrying attempts.

I recall an epic invasion by the Phaerimm... Cities besieged, nations reeling, vast territories turned to wasteland, while Chosens and High Mages were decimated in the desperate clash for Faerun's survival vs unstoppable invaders. Why did they not respond this way when the Evil Archwizard Shady Supermen flew city-battleship-fortresses over their homelands?



Yeah, just about everything related to Shade was done wrong, in my opinion. I think there was much more potential in having them as one power group among many, trying both overt and covert plots as they struggled to reclaim a portion of the Realms for themselves... Instead, they curbstomped everyone that they came across, as part of the ALL SHADOW, ALL THE TIME! era of WotC.

It was utterly unbelievable, a huge waste of potential, and a grand disservice to the setting and those who'd worked to make it.

Much like what they did to Thay, come to think of it...

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5752 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  07:24:03  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember in the lead up to the 3E FRCS a few of us asked to assist advocated for various changes to the planned developments. We won some battles and lost others. I had asked the design team to consider the consequences of a whole city of Netherese archwizards lobbing into Faerun (not knowing that they had a whole novel trilogy ready to go on the topic) and advocated that they have Shade crash down into Anauroch - thereby creating a great mega-dungeon option - and have the surviving archwizards scatter to the winds where they could be used as needed but not represent a monolithic big bad. They weren't fans of the idea.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

274 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  07:46:59  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a 4e gal, Iím actually fond of the Netherese being back and dominant. It gives a fun big antagonist with overwhelming odds and it makes some of the (beloved!) wealth of history the setting has more actionable in play. I liked High Imaskar for similar reasons.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1084 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  11:00:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I have an odd objection the Mulhorand as-is (and as presented in that doc): in addition to thinking the "we're from Earth and follow Earth pantheons!" thing is tacky and immersion-breaking, I personally pray to Hathor/Het-Heru and a few other gods. Not that they're "mine" in any sense, but it makes them feel goofy in fiction.



They actually are the earth gods. The real world pantheons are alive and well in D&D, even if earth is probably not where they originated from. The elder pantheons were probably responsible for the creation myths of their respective prime worlds and are old enough to have given their names to the planes they now dwell on, if not greatly influencing. Ysgard is the Norse plane of the same name, for instance; Hades gave his name to the Gray Waste; Carceri is Tartarus; etc.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

274 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  11:08:38  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I have an odd objection the Mulhorand as-is (and as presented in that doc): in addition to thinking the "we're from Earth and follow Earth pantheons!" thing is tacky and immersion-breaking, I personally pray to Hathor/Het-Heru and a few other gods. Not that they're "mine" in any sense, but it makes them feel goofy in fiction.



They actually are the earth gods. The real world pantheons are alive and well in D&D, even if earth is probably not where they originated from. The elder pantheons were probably responsible for the creation myths of their respective prime worlds and are old enough to have given their names to the planes they now dwell on, if not greatly influencing. Ysgard is the Norse plane of the same name, for instance; Hades gave his name to the Gray Waste; Carceri is Tartarus; etc.



Iím well aware; I just immensely dislike it. I donít like connections between our world and its faiths and my fantasy settings.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1586 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  15:05:45  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.



This is how is happening in my Realms. I've completely downplayed the Netherese wars there, as my Netherese are still busy taming/reforesting the Anauroch and that stuff (and in my Realms they aren't destroying the glaciers to do that). So people still fear the Netherese, and perhaps in a future they will try to conquer the world, but for now my Netherese are happy to just rebuild their old homeland.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


One thing to note on Unther that I've always felt interesting, because it wasn't fly in your face.... there's a portion of it which was dinosaur filled. Its for this reason that I find it interesting that the dragonborn came through around there.



IIRC, I read in one of the "so saith Ed" topics that Unther originally was about Naga "god-kings" instead of Not-Summeria. I'll prefer that version of Unther over "Land of Evil Humans slavers of Evilness" (TM).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopherís path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8668 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2020 :  00:37:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.

Surprising to me that Shade could wreak such havoc while Mystra's meddling Chosen basically did nothing but look busy. Elminster's greatest achievement vs the Princes Shade was basically just deflecting their scrying attempts.

I recall an epic invasion by the Phaerimm... Cities besieged, nations reeling, vast territories turned to wasteland, while Chosens and High Mages were decimated in the desperate clash for Faerun's survival vs unstoppable invaders. Why did they not respond this way when the Evil Archwizard Shady Supermen flew city-battleship-fortresses over their homelands?



Yeah, just about everything related to Shade was done wrong, in my opinion. I think there was much more potential in having them as one power group among many, trying both overt and covert plots as they struggled to reclaim a portion of the Realms for themselves... Instead, they curbstomped everyone that they came across, as part of the ALL SHADOW, ALL THE TIME! era of WotC.

It was utterly unbelievable, a huge waste of potential, and a grand disservice to the setting and those who'd worked to make it.

Much like what they did to Thay, come to think of it...



Yep, just yep.... Thay will never be the same to me again, and I really loved the place for all its flaws (well because of its flaws). Then with the ideas I've proposed around here with scattered "red wizard tharchs" not loyal to Thay, its still not the same because their regional differences make them interesting and unique to me, but less cohesive (as in how England had a world spanning empire, but they still weren't cohesive and the various areas just kind of did what they wanted)Ö. and I'm not comparing my idea to them being as powerful as the English empire either (more like a vast trade conglomerate).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Feb 2020 00:38:49
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