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Grumpy Hamatula
Acolyte
22 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 22:06:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’m in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. I’m not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed) . . . . I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool . . . .
Perhaps it might be more accurate of me to say that the Helmite/Maztica situation has the potential to be problematic, depending on how the matter is handled at the table, rather than to say that it is unquestionably problematic. However, I will admit to not having delved deeply into that source material, so I do not have as thorough an understanding of it as you do.
I do echo the sentiment, however, on thoroughly exploring the various myths and cultures to understand and present them to their fullest potential. As you mentioned, the Western tradition has been well-mined, especially in fleshing out the Lower Planes, and it's quite fun to trace the lineage of D&D's many fiends to their inspirations in the various Western myths and scriptures. I ended up down quite a rabbit hole looking into Asmodeus, who has quite a fun line of development throughout history. I have something of an interest in the medieval and Renaissance grimoire tradition, and it's come in handy when discussing in-game topics more than once.
In terms of applying cultural research at the game table directly, I had a player some time ago who wanted to play a wandering swordsman from Wa. I loaned him my Kara-Tur and OA materials, but we also talked extensively about where that material might miss the mark and how he might go beyond it respectfully, as he had a strong interest in presenting the character as authentically as he could. I also encouraged him to read up on real-world Japanese history and spirituality to get a better sense of the culture that inspired Wa and Kozakura, and IMO his presentation of the character was greatly enhanced by it. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 22:41:07
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Does anyone else have a problem with the way the Shou dialogue is written in "engrish" in The Veiled Dragon? Just me? For that alone I would say including Mandarin-esque cultures in the Realms is problematic when handled without any tact or taste.
I think I like Wa/Kozakura because I really enjoyed Ishi in the Forgotten Realms comics and think she gave a neat perspective to the group - but she wasn't written to speak common like she was Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's. |
Edited by - Seravin on 10 Feb 2020 22:44:39 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2020 : 22:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Does anyone else have a problem with the way the Shou dialogue is written in "engrish" in The Veiled Dragon? Just me? For that alone I would say including Mandarin-esque cultures in the Realms is problematic when handled without any tact or taste.
I think I like Wa/Kozakura because I really enjoyed Ishi in the Forgotten Realms comics and think she gave a neat perspective to the group - but she wasn't written to speak common like she was Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany's.
I haven’t read it myself, but I wouldn’t trust anyone who didn’t mind that. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2445 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 00:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy Hamatula
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’m in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. I’m not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed) . . . . I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool . . . .
Perhaps it might be more accurate of me to say that the Helmite/Maztica situation has the potential to be problematic, depending on how the matter is handled at the table, rather than to say that it is unquestionably problematic. However, I will admit to not having delved deeply into that source material, so I do not have as thorough an understanding of it as you do.
I say that the problem is not the setting (Maztica itself), but the way it was implemented. In my experience, I feel like the 2e campaign guide encourages you to reenact the whole Conquista thing, and presents it as something good... but reading other campaign guides (such as Seethyr's, for instance) where such event is downplayed are much more approachable.
Myself, if I ever implement Maztica in my campaign, I would get rid of that stuff altogether. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 01:33:18
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| There's just no reason to reenact colonial narratives in diverse fantasy inspirations, y'know? Same problem Chult has; fantasy black people can't just exist, they have to be colonized again. Ugh. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 02:39:23
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quote:
There's just no reason to reenact colonial narratives in diverse fantasy inspirations, y'know? Same problem Chult has; fantasy black people can't just exist, they have to be colonized again. Ugh.
The other side of the same problem is "fantasy spanish people" and "fantasy mongol hordes" doing all that colonizing and conquering.
In my earliest DMing days I populated Sembia with "fantasy black people". Wealthy mercantile colonists who'd long ago originated from some generic exotic faraway tropical nation (originally unspecified, later comveniently assumed to be Chult). Because Sembia was only vaguely outlined and promised to remain open-ended, so why not use the opportunity to mix some color into the conspicuously pasty Heartlands?
I didn't have to "reject" subsequent lore published about Sembia. "Black Sembia" still worked well enough in all the important details, I only had to adjust trivial cosmetic descriptors on some published NPCs. Human racism seems entirely irrelevant in a world overrun by smarmy fey and murderous orcs. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Feb 2020 02:51:39 |
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Grumpy Hamatula
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 15:47:11
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Zeromaru X and keftiu, I think you described the colonization problem in far better terms than I did. There's absolutely no need to promote colonialist narratives as positive things in which heroic character should engage. Might those things have occurred, per the canon? Perhaps so, but we need not portray them as good things. When the matter comes up at my table (which is admittedly rare), it is portrayed not as positive, but as a significant mark against Helm's servants and his church. In my Realms, Helm has also punished his church for having done such a thing in his name, and he has made it clear that it was not acceptable.
To the best of my ability, I strive to portray folks from Chult and Maztica as independent and powerful in their own right rather than risking falling into the trap of stereotypes and tropes that present them as somehow in need (ugh, ugh) of salvation or conquest on the part of outsiders. Maztica since its return at the end of the Sundering has become a powerful and independent trading power (though I've not delved into any details; currently the PCs are really only aware of it because such trade comes through Waterdeep). Chult is also a powerful trading region, and it is widely respected. I've shied away from doing any campaigns in that region, however, despite WOTC's recent material in Tomb of Annihilation because I feel I'm not familiar enough with it to do it anything approaching real justice. Perhaps later, when I've sorted out a way to filter the problems from the potential and consulted more materials written by people of color, I might turn my attention that way at the table. Right now? I think I'm likely to inadvertently perpetuate problems despite my best intentions.
Regarding the terrible dialect written into The Veiled Dragon, which Seravin pointed out, I haven't read that particular novel, but dialogue delivered in that way makes me cringe. I will admit to having been very ignorant of why this is a problem when I was younger, but I have thankfully benefited from the patience of others around me as I've aged and learned. Portrayals of any sort that clearly rely on offensive stereotypes and Hollywood misrepresentation have no place at my tables.
As a DM, I do my best to sort through problematic material to help players understand why we diverge from it in my games. I tend to view the problematic published material through the lens of history (i.e., it has significant problems and isn't table-appropriate, but it is an artifact that should be studied, if only as a reminder that future presentations must be better). I feel it's important that my players and I discuss the matter together to make sure that the whole group is working toward something better. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 20:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy Hamatula
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’m in full agreement with the sentiment on the conquistador material. I’m not sure about it being problematic, because I saw them as villains throughout (with a bit of a redemption arc in the novels, which I enjoyed) . . . . I wanted to delve deep into the actual mythology like we do European and Christian myth (Asmodeus anyone?) and find the parts that were amazing and cool . . . .
Perhaps it might be more accurate of me to say that the Helmite/Maztica situation has the potential to be problematic, depending on how the matter is handled at the table, rather than to say that it is unquestionably problematic. However, I will admit to not having delved deeply into that source material,
Gosh, if all the straw men are not summoned and then denounced exactly in the prescribed words, that's terrible.
So untumblr. Isn't everything Problematic (TM) unless you don't ride the high horse hard enough?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 00:30:52
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| I honestly wouldn't cut any areas from the setting. I just may not visit them, because a given campaign has no reason to go there. I will admit openly to liking the reshaping of Maztica that Seethyr's been working on (and I really liked his work on Lopango except that I favor warlock orcs serving a patron over sorcerous orcs). If I were to cut anything, it might be Osse, because its seen little to no development. Oh, and I would "redevelop" the moon such that what we "know" of as elves and humans end up being something else (and there being a reason they worship Leira). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 02:53:44
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I don't necessarily cut them from my play-setting; but I won't have anything to do with them.
For all the reasons stated prior, and more, I too agree with Maztica and the Shou region, and Al-Qadim.
Also; Chult.
I do not want Dinosaur Jungle in my quasi-medieval fantasy world. I just don't. That's all to that.
As far as Mulhorand and Unther, I much more enjoy thematically replacing the Egyptian God names, but keeping the entire theme alive. However, we never really get down there to play.
I too agree that all the Zulkirs and their respective Arts subtly at war with each other in Thay is WAY better than undead nation ruled by Tam. Not that I would allow that to happen, as my Realms don't go past published material into 4th and beyond.
Shade Enclave over Anauroch is also ignored. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 04:05:35
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Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.
Surprising to me that Shade could wreak such havoc while Mystra's meddling Chosen basically did nothing but look busy. Elminster's greatest achievement vs the Princes Shade was basically just deflecting their scrying attempts.
I recall an epic invasion by the Phaerimm... Cities besieged, nations reeling, vast territories turned to wasteland, while Chosens and High Mages were decimated in the desperate clash for Faerun's survival vs unstoppable invaders. Why did they not respond this way when the Evil Archwizard Shady Supermen flew city-battleship-fortresses over their homelands? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 04:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
I don't necessarily cut them from my play-setting; but I won't have anything to do with them.
For all the reasons stated prior, and more, I too agree with Maztica and the Shou region, and Al-Qadim.
Also; Chult.
I do not want Dinosaur Jungle in my quasi-medieval fantasy world. I just don't. That's all to that.
As far as Mulhorand and Unther, I much more enjoy thematically replacing the Egyptian God names, but keeping the entire theme alive. However, we never really get down there to play.
I too agree that all the Zulkirs and their respective Arts subtly at war with each other in Thay is WAY better than undead nation ruled by Tam. Not that I would allow that to happen, as my Realms don't go past published material into 4th and beyond.
Shade Enclave over Anauroch is also ignored.
One thing to note on Unther that I've always felt interesting, because it wasn't fly in your face.... there's a portion of it which was dinosaur filled. Its for this reason that I find it interesting that the dragonborn came through around there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 04:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.
Surprising to me that Shade could wreak such havoc while Mystra's meddling Chosen basically did nothing but look busy. Elminster's greatest achievement vs the Princes Shade was basically just deflecting their scrying attempts.
I recall an epic invasion by the Phaerimm... Cities besieged, nations reeling, vast territories turned to wasteland, while Chosens and High Mages were decimated in the desperate clash for Faerun's survival vs unstoppable invaders. Why did they not respond this way when the Evil Archwizard Shady Supermen flew city-battleship-fortresses over their homelands?
Yeah, just about everything related to Shade was done wrong, in my opinion. I think there was much more potential in having them as one power group among many, trying both overt and covert plots as they struggled to reclaim a portion of the Realms for themselves... Instead, they curbstomped everyone that they came across, as part of the ALL SHADOW, ALL THE TIME! era of WotC.
It was utterly unbelievable, a huge waste of potential, and a grand disservice to the setting and those who'd worked to make it.
Much like what they did to Thay, come to think of it... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 07:24:03
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I remember in the lead up to the 3E FRCS a few of us asked to assist advocated for various changes to the planned developments. We won some battles and lost others. I had asked the design team to consider the consequences of a whole city of Netherese archwizards lobbing into Faerun (not knowing that they had a whole novel trilogy ready to go on the topic) and advocated that they have Shade crash down into Anauroch - thereby creating a great mega-dungeon option - and have the surviving archwizards scatter to the winds where they could be used as needed but not represent a monolithic big bad. They weren't fans of the idea.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 07:46:59
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| As a 4e gal, I’m actually fond of the Netherese being back and dominant. It gives a fun big antagonist with overwhelming odds and it makes some of the (beloved!) wealth of history the setting has more actionable in play. I liked High Imaskar for similar reasons. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 11:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I have an odd objection the Mulhorand as-is (and as presented in that doc): in addition to thinking the "we're from Earth and follow Earth pantheons!" thing is tacky and immersion-breaking, I personally pray to Hathor/Het-Heru and a few other gods. Not that they're "mine" in any sense, but it makes them feel goofy in fiction.
They actually are the earth gods. The real world pantheons are alive and well in D&D, even if earth is probably not where they originated from. The elder pantheons were probably responsible for the creation myths of their respective prime worlds and are old enough to have given their names to the planes they now dwell on, if not greatly influencing. Ysgard is the Norse plane of the same name, for instance; Hades gave his name to the Gray Waste; Carceri is Tartarus; etc. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 11:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I have an odd objection the Mulhorand as-is (and as presented in that doc): in addition to thinking the "we're from Earth and follow Earth pantheons!" thing is tacky and immersion-breaking, I personally pray to Hathor/Het-Heru and a few other gods. Not that they're "mine" in any sense, but it makes them feel goofy in fiction.
They actually are the earth gods. The real world pantheons are alive and well in D&D, even if earth is probably not where they originated from. The elder pantheons were probably responsible for the creation myths of their respective prime worlds and are old enough to have given their names to the planes they now dwell on, if not greatly influencing. Ysgard is the Norse plane of the same name, for instance; Hades gave his name to the Gray Waste; Carceri is Tartarus; etc.
I’m well aware; I just immensely dislike it. I don’t like connections between our world and its faiths and my fantasy settings. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2445 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 15:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.
This is how is happening in my Realms. I've completely downplayed the Netherese wars there, as my Netherese are still busy taming/reforesting the Anauroch and that stuff (and in my Realms they aren't destroying the glaciers to do that). So people still fear the Netherese, and perhaps in a future they will try to conquer the world, but for now my Netherese are happy to just rebuild their old homeland.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing to note on Unther that I've always felt interesting, because it wasn't fly in your face.... there's a portion of it which was dinosaur filled. Its for this reason that I find it interesting that the dragonborn came through around there.
IIRC, I read in one of the "so saith Ed" topics that Unther originally was about Naga "god-kings" instead of Not-Summeria. I'll prefer that version of Unther over "Land of Evil Humans slavers of Evilness" (TM). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2020 : 00:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shade enclave was appealing to me. Untilvit became evident they were utterly dominant over everybody else. I think it could have worked out more interestingly if Shade didn't suddenly ambush Faerun but instead had an ongoing long, long-term struggle to establish beachhead in a hostile territory surrounded by hostile inhabitants.
Surprising to me that Shade could wreak such havoc while Mystra's meddling Chosen basically did nothing but look busy. Elminster's greatest achievement vs the Princes Shade was basically just deflecting their scrying attempts.
I recall an epic invasion by the Phaerimm... Cities besieged, nations reeling, vast territories turned to wasteland, while Chosens and High Mages were decimated in the desperate clash for Faerun's survival vs unstoppable invaders. Why did they not respond this way when the Evil Archwizard Shady Supermen flew city-battleship-fortresses over their homelands?
Yeah, just about everything related to Shade was done wrong, in my opinion. I think there was much more potential in having them as one power group among many, trying both overt and covert plots as they struggled to reclaim a portion of the Realms for themselves... Instead, they curbstomped everyone that they came across, as part of the ALL SHADOW, ALL THE TIME! era of WotC.
It was utterly unbelievable, a huge waste of potential, and a grand disservice to the setting and those who'd worked to make it.
Much like what they did to Thay, come to think of it...
Yep, just yep.... Thay will never be the same to me again, and I really loved the place for all its flaws (well because of its flaws). Then with the ideas I've proposed around here with scattered "red wizard tharchs" not loyal to Thay, its still not the same because their regional differences make them interesting and unique to me, but less cohesive (as in how England had a world spanning empire, but they still weren't cohesive and the various areas just kind of did what they wanted)…. and I'm not comparing my idea to them being as powerful as the English empire either (more like a vast trade conglomerate). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Feb 2020 00:38:49 |
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What areas do you cut from the setting?
