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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 13:14:44
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Just came across this Adventurer's League officially sanctioned adventure. It's a travesty what the Realms has become when they can take an iconic location like this, simply (emphasis on the "simple" part) state that an arcanaloth has taken up residence there, and opened the door to let people (i.e. adventurers) come in. Did the designer read "Blackstaff Tower"? Who signs off on this stuff? There's not enough eye roll emojis in the universe to deal with this type of dross.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 13:19:02
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| Damn. Yet another reason why I went back to the OGB. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 15:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just came across this Adventurer's League officially sanctioned adventure. It's a travesty what the Realms has become when they can take an iconic location like this, simply (emphasis on the "simple" part) state that an arcanaloth has taken up residence there, and opened the door to let people (i.e. adventurers) come in. Did the designer read "Blackstaff Tower"? Who signs off on this stuff? There's not enough eye roll emojis in the universe to deal with this type of dross.
-- George Krashos
It's pretty much guaranteed that the designer didn't read Blackstaff Tower -- they've stopped even pretending to respect the setting, and they simply don't care about prior canon.
The Realms is now a buffet for the "designers;" they simply pick the bits they like and ignore everything else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 19:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just came across this Adventurer's League officially sanctioned adventure. It's a travesty what the Realms has become when they can take an iconic location like this, simply (emphasis on the "simple" part) state that an arcanaloth has taken up residence there, and opened the door to let people (i.e. adventurers) come in. Did the designer read "Blackstaff Tower"? Who signs off on this stuff? There's not enough eye roll emojis in the universe to deal with this type of dross.
-- George Krashos
It's pretty much guaranteed that the designer didn't read Blackstaff Tower -- they've stopped even pretending to respect the setting, and they simply don't care about prior canon.
The Realms is now a buffet for the "designers;" they simply pick the bits they like and ignore everything else.
I certainly don't intend to start a fight but I thought that each edition was allowed to retcon just about anything it wanted to. Hasn't there already been other things that were retconned along the way? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 20:04:49
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| I guess is only myself (and my bias for the edition I started DMing the Realms), but I see a certain coherence in 4e sourcebooks and adventures (at least with 3.x products) that you don't find in 5e products. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Jan 2020 20:22:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 20:19:19
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just came across this Adventurer's League officially sanctioned adventure. It's a travesty what the Realms has become when they can take an iconic location like this, simply (emphasis on the "simple" part) state that an arcanaloth has taken up residence there, and opened the door to let people (i.e. adventurers) come in. Did the designer read "Blackstaff Tower"? Who signs off on this stuff? There's not enough eye roll emojis in the universe to deal with this type of dross.
-- George Krashos
It's pretty much guaranteed that the designer didn't read Blackstaff Tower -- they've stopped even pretending to respect the setting, and they simply don't care about prior canon.
The Realms is now a buffet for the "designers;" they simply pick the bits they like and ignore everything else.
I certainly don't intend to start a fight but I thought that each edition was allowed to retcon just about anything it wanted to. Hasn't there already been other things that were retconned along the way?
Up until the release of 3E, there was an effort to adhere to prior canon -- they even had a "traffic cop" position to make sure everything stayed in order. The Time of Troubles was created purely to explain the (rather minor) changes between 1E and 2E.
With the release of 3E, they stopped caring as much about that. Some designers and writers did make an effort to stick with prior material, but others were less concerned about that.
The timejump and massive changes to the setting that we got with 4E were, I believe, all about allowing the writers and designers to just do what they want without regard to anything that came before. And 5E has continued that trend.
Yes, it's their IP and they can do whatever they want with it... But as someone who has been buying Realms products since around 1990, and who has purchased a lot of the material twice, I'd far rather see them respect the setting and its fans rather than treat it like a salad bar. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 20:26:48
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| We seriously need a strong novel line back. That’s all I’ll add. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2020 : 21:25:11
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| Well, that explains it then. I grabbed just about all the 2e FR stuff I saw (except the novels, I got a few of those but not all of them). I have very little 3e stuff and I don't remember what it was that made me decide to stop but non-sensical changes would have definitely done it for me. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2020 : 02:26:21
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| I have very mixed feelings about the various editions. We've always had folks play in the sandbox who didn't look at the other existing lore. Salvatore writes great books IMO, but man he's butchered some lore almost from the get go, but he's an easy target. There are dozens of writers for each edition (2E has some really horrible gaffs, Great Khan Game anyone and how many disparate pseudo-Arabic cultures can one continent have) who have flubbed it, thus we get Steven Schend and Eric Boyd's efforts to come up with a reason to make all extent lore true (magic certainly helps). I like that approach. 2E was prolific with novels and game supplements of all sorts and thus probably the most offensive in the gaff department IMO (Ravens Bluff for organized play was a hot mess - aquatic dwarves anyone or the now non-canon Double Diamond books), but since the sandbox was not nearly as formed, it was easier to address. 3E had far less books, but by this point the number of supplements, novels, magazine articles, etc. became somewhat unmanageable for anyone not completely immersed as we are (and heh, we even make mistakes that's one of the reasons we talk to each other on these boards). 4E just sorta wiped everything away to make an almost clean slate, but there were still plenty of gaffs. 5E is no different IMO. IMO the writers try to do their due diligence, but it's hard, and I'm a forgiving sort in this regard. I don't think anyone is referencing the novels. They are looking at the FR Wiki and game books and that's it from what I can tell. Heck even Richard Lee Beyers didn't realize he was playing in a sandbox that Lynn Abbey first dived into with the Simbul's Gift (one of my favorite FR novels, period.); thus several Zulkirs are portrayed quite differently. As for the Adventurer's League modules, I think those folks try too, but those modules are real hit or miss--part of it is I think the pace they push these modules out at, part is it's organized play which has always been hit or miss regardless of edition. The Myth Nantar module was horrible from a lore standpoint and from what I've heard from several folks, a play standpoint too. I don't know, aside from being truly ticked off by what 4E did to the Realms (to me it was a great campaign setting that just wasn't the Realms anymore, but I have to admit that there were even some things from 4E that I love--like the development of the Feywild and Shadowfell), from a lore standpoint, I find each edition has had its strong and weak elements. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2020 : 02:48:27
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Tom is right, but my peeve didn't so much revolve around the serious lack of application/research on the part of the adventure writer, it was the fact that they are not honest in terms of what they are producing - production line, organised play adventures that are cookie-cutter and totally mundane. What is happening is they have to set these adventures in the Realms, so they feel like they need to throw in a few nods to the Realms (and seriously, they are a bob of the head at most for the AL stuff) to tick that box. The no doubt talented and earnest writer who came up with Ahghairon's Tower should have just made it Roanar's/Urlathan's/Ormoran's Tower and that way you don't offend anyone. I just wish the writers who dabble in the Realms would give the setting the same respect as if they had been asked to write an adventure set in Middle Earth, or the Star Wars universe, etc. Then again, those IPs have a goal and ambition for internal consistency and people invested in that occurring across every product offering level - the Realms lost that a fair number of years ago. I would like to add that on my (albeit cursory) reading of the big 5E adventure path official releases, the Realms scholarship and work has been pretty good. It's when it the second stringers get a gig that it all goes to hat.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2020 : 22:13:08
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| Totally agree George. Some of the AL adventures have been okay lore wise, but most have struck me as somewhat mediocre (and a few as you note, down right horrible), especially those not directly tied to one of the hardcover adventures. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2020 : 03:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just came across this Adventurer's League officially sanctioned adventure. It's a travesty what the Realms has become when they can take an iconic location like this, simply (emphasis on the "simple" part) state that an arcanaloth has taken up residence there, and opened the door to let people (i.e. adventurers) come in. Did the designer read "Blackstaff Tower"? Who signs off on this stuff? There's not enough eye roll emojis in the universe to deal with this type of dross.
-- George Krashos
I just finished Blackstaff Tower for about the 4th time in as many years. As my group is currently in Waterdeep I was really excited to see this post.
picture my unimaginable disappointment once I saw what they did.
I guess the best way to do this justice is for us to write our own adventure giving it the proper treatments and get it up on DMs Guild.
What do you say? I would be happy to help out.
I have already been doing similar work with the Crypts of the Deepening Moon and the Crypt of the Black Hand |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2020 : 03:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just came across this Adventurer's League officially sanctioned adventure. It's a travesty what the Realms has become when they can take an iconic location like this, simply (emphasis on the "simple" part) state that an arcanaloth has taken up residence there, and opened the door to let people (i.e. adventurers) come in. Did the designer read "Blackstaff Tower"? Who signs off on this stuff? There's not enough eye roll emojis in the universe to deal with this type of dross.
-- George Krashos
It's pretty much guaranteed that the designer didn't read Blackstaff Tower -- they've stopped even pretending to respect the setting, and they simply don't care about prior canon.
The Realms is now a buffet for the "designers;" they simply pick the bits they like and ignore everything else.
I certainly don't intend to start a fight but I thought that each edition was allowed to retcon just about anything it wanted to. Hasn't there already been other things that were retconned along the way?
Up until the release of 3E, there was an effort to adhere to prior canon -- they even had a "traffic cop" position to make sure everything stayed in order. The Time of Troubles was created purely to explain the (rather minor) changes between 1E and 2E.
With the release of 3E, they stopped caring as much about that. Some designers and writers did make an effort to stick with prior material, but others were less concerned about that.
The timejump and massive changes to the setting that we got with 4E were, I believe, all about allowing the writers and designers to just do what they want without regard to anything that came before. And 5E has continued that trend.
Yes, it's their IP and they can do whatever they want with it... But as someone who has been buying Realms products since around 1990, and who has purchased a lot of the material twice, I'd far rather see them respect the setting and its fans rather than treat it like a salad bar.
I'm all for respecting the fans and even more so respecting the creators who have worked tirelessly to create amazing content since the very inception of the setting.
That is what bothers me the most. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2020 : 03:09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
from what I can tell. Heck even Richard Lee Beyers didn't realize he was playing in a sandbox that Lynn Abbey first dived into with the Simbul's Gift (one of my favorite FR novels, period.); thus several Zulkirs are portrayed quite differently.
That is to be expected or even welcomed IMO. However what's occurring now is essentially same as wiping away what Lynn and RLB did in the first place.
So two different things entirely IMO. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2020 : 04:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
I just finished Blackstaff Tower for about the 4th time in as many years. As my group is currently in Waterdeep I was really excited to see this post.
picture my unimaginable disappointment once I saw what they did.
I guess the best way to do this justice is for us to write our own adventure giving it the proper treatments and get it up on DMs Guild.
What do you say? I would be happy to help out.
I have already been doing similar work with the Crypts of the Deepening Moon and the Crypt of the Black Hand
I love where your head's at but the last thing I need is another FR project!
I'm working hard-ish on a few things with Eric Boyd and have a few of my own projects puttering along. There's no time for extra things right at the minute.
I would be happy however to help out anyone who tackled this (or any FR project) with lore checks/suggestions etc. I did it for TSR/WotC - and for nothing - so it's only fair that I help out other Realms devotees.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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DDAL08-17 Tower of Ahghairon
