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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 20:47:04
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As the topic asks; any mention of Fzoul in any 5th edition material yet? Last I paid attention, Bane had raised him to exarch (which was 4th ed wording of a demigod? Or near avatar power? ) I'm curious what that status would mean, or look like, in 5th.
In fact...has Zhentil Keep or the Zhentarim been mentioned at all?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 23:42:35
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| recommend looking at some 5e modules and the faction thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 23:47:06
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The Zhentarim? Yeah, they are good guys now and the like.
Old Fzoul? Sadly, there is no info about him on 5e. He was a demigod/exarch of Bane in 4e, but now that Bane is a demigod in 5e (as per Descent into Avernus), no idea how this may have affected Fzoul.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 01:02:38
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Bane is a DEMIGOD?!
THAT'S IT.
Time to liquor up and riot. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 02:09:53
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Well, according to Descent into Avernus, Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal are demigods now. They preferred to sacrifice their divine powers and so be able to influence the mortal world (as Ao has banned all full fledged gods to do that now...).
If you have the opportunity to check that book, the info is from page 231:
quote:
The Dead Three are evil adventurers named Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul who long ago quested to become gods. They succeeded but grew even more ambitious. They tried to seize the Tablets of Fate from the overgod Ao and use them to rule over Faerūn and its gods. They failed and were slain during the Time of Troubles. Since then, a variety of contingency plans they had in place allowed them to be reborn.
While the Sundering saw the other gods of the Forgotten Realms withdraw their direct influence from the world, the Dead Three remained behind in mortal form as quasi-divine beings. While their power has diminished, they remain a formidable trio and play a malevolent role in influencing events on Faerūn.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 03:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, according to Descent into Avernus, Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal are demigods now. They preferred to sacrifice their divine powers and so be able to influence the mortal world (as Ao has banned all full fledged gods to do that now...).
If you have the opportunity to check that book, the info is from page 231:
quote:
The Dead Three are evil adventurers named Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul who long ago quested to become gods. They succeeded but grew even more ambitious. They tried to seize the Tablets of Fate from the overgod Ao and use them to rule over Faerūn and its gods. They failed and were slain during the Time of Troubles. Since then, a variety of contingency plans they had in place allowed them to be reborn.
While the Sundering saw the other gods of the Forgotten Realms withdraw their direct influence from the world, the Dead Three remained behind in mortal form as quasi-divine beings. While their power has diminished, they remain a formidable trio and play a malevolent role in influencing events on Faerūn.
*blink* So a deity of Tyranny decided it'd be more fun to be LESS powerful?  |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 07:28:50
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| Poor Bhaal and Myrkul should have stayed dead. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 10:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Poor Bhaal and Myrkul should have stayed dead.
It was canon that Myrkul was happier not being a god. I wish they'd kept him that way. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 12:00:59
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| Good grief that is really dumb. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 12:04:59
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If you think Fzouls status as missing is sad, look at what they did to Jander. Hes been reduced to a single encounter where hes just begging to be put out of his misery. Kind of an ignominious end for a character that once pretty much headlined entire novels.
I like that theyre bringing back old characters (as they did with Dragonbait and Artus Cimber In Tomb) but theyre not being treated with the greatest amount of respect. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 13:51:53
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I don't 'like' these changes, but its certainly not the worst thing I've seen. After the 4e changes, just about everything else seems pretty mild by comparison. There is a certain focus on 'The Game' in 5e, so just about everything interesting has been boiled-down to an encounter.
As for Fzoul, he's probably off making Pasta somewhere (I just HAD to go there  ). Seriously, though, he's most likely an Exarch/Agent of Jergal, or some other death-related God now. What did Planescape call those 'divine agents' again? Something with a 'P', I think? Its been so long since I thought about any of this stuff. Name don't matter, though, he's probably in that same catch-all 'Exarch' (demigod/archdemon/whatever) class of beings we got in 4e. Just a hair's breath below his old boss, IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
*blink* So a deity of Tyranny decided it'd be more fun to be LESS powerful?
Try not to think about it too hard.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was canon that Myrkul was happier not being a god. I wish they'd kept him that way.
They sort of did, he's just not 'in' the Crown anymore.
But then again, who's to say he's not? 
EDIT: I'm actually thinking of a scenario similar to DC comic's The Bell, The Wheel, & The Jar - three insanely powerful (cosmic) artifacts that are connected to three ancient 'demonic' (actually, pre-demonic) entities. So you could possibly link each of The Dark Three to a Dark trio of Objects, that would of course include the Crown of Horns. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2019 14:04:39 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 19:23:45
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In the context of the actual game, what effect does it truly matter? A cleric can still pray to, receive powers, spells, visions, etc. from said deities regardless of divine power ranking.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 19:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
In the context of the actual game, what effect does it truly matter? A cleric can still pray to, receive powers, spells, visions, etc. from said deities regardless of divine power ranking.
My issue isn't that they're demigods, it's that a deity of tyranny would voluntarily weaken himself, thus putting himself in a position where he could be subjugated by others. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 20:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Fzoul, he's probably off making Pasta somewhere (I just HAD to go there ).
He's no longer active, but we did have a Pasta Fzoul, here. This is quite possibly one of the greatest usernames in the history of ever. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 22:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Fzoul, he's probably off making Pasta somewhere (I just HAD to go there ).
He's no longer active, but we did have a Pasta Fzoul, here. This is quite possibly one of the greatest usernames in the history of ever.
I seriously just choked on my pasta. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 00:05:04
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I think that the state of the Dead Three from the point of view of Descent Into Avernus should be approached a little carefully, like how Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes offers a different take on the origin of drow and the state of the Dark Seldarine that doesn't necessarily mesh with Forgotten Realms history.
The passage of the Dead Three doesn't discount the possibility that the quasi-divine beings left behind are avatars rather than the main bodies of the Dead Three.
Given the greed of the Dead Three (their divine realms are not something they'd give up for meddling on the mortal level), and their learning of potential consequences for messing with Ao (they're not likely to take unnecessary chances afterwards), as well as Mystra demonstrating her ability to manifest physically in a certain post-Sundering novel, it makes more sense in my opinion for the quasi-divine beings spoken of being avatars rather than the main bodies.
I would surmise that Fzoul is busy in Bane's divine realm organizing armies and resources while the Black Lord plans out conquest of all realms, not just the mortal ones on a single planet.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 00:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Fzoul, he's probably off making Pasta somewhere (I just HAD to go there ).
He's no longer active, but we did have a Pasta Fzoul, here. This is quite possibly one of the greatest usernames in the history of ever.
Not possibly. It was THE best, by a street.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 01:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
In the context of the actual game, what effect does it truly matter? A cleric can still pray to, receive powers, spells, visions, etc. from said deities regardless of divine power ranking.
But isn't half the things we discuss here more to do with the story rather than the in-game mechanics?
In the context of the game, no, it doesn't mean a thing-because I don't play the 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game. I play Paizo's Pathfinder rule system, no 1st edition.
However, I have always played in the Forgotten Realms. And thematically, I find it bunk to have Bane be less than he is. Then again, I also don't like that the gods have to have a more hands off approach. Then again, that could be a slow burn of a small chapter into a large over-arching plot within the 5th edition story centerpiece.
But based on the last 5 years, I seriously doubt that. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 02:08:48
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Man I got issues with Bane being downgraded.
He already came back by using his own demigod godson as a vessel and I'm guessing they hand waved it entirely. So while he might be associated with the dead three, he, like the mongols, is the exception.
I was stewing on writing another adventure called "In search of fzoul" in a similar manner to in search of dragonbait, but life is getting in the way (to say nothing of tethyr), so will throw out my idea.
Fzoul has some unique characteristics:
1. He usually is written as "the reasonable evil tyrant." In most 2e modules he is the relative good cop to the greater evil that's occurring (the curse of the azure bonds module especially brings this to mind).
2. He threw off Cyric and somehow managed to bring back his own god from the dead.
3. Unlike Mystra (whom seems to bring the chosen by the carton), Fzoul was the chosen of bane and redid the Zhentarium so they stopped being a joke in 3e.
4. In 4e, he died and became an avatar of Bane.
5. In 5e the Zhents are an available faction,
What I propose is that during the resundering, Fzoul essentially took over a small child and is being reborn as a mortal.
He wants a chance to try again, especially with his own god being demoted so he's reworking his way back through mortality to figure out a loophole so he can return he and his god to the pants wetting terrifying power they had before the times of trouble.
He has reopened the pools of radience and is recruiting adventurers to do most of the heavy lifting while he grows up.
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Edited by - shades of eternity on 26 Nov 2019 02:21:07 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 15:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
I think that the state of the Dead Three from the point of view of Descent Into Avernus should be approached a little carefully, like how Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes offers a different take on the origin of drow and the state of the Dark Seldarine that doesn't necessarily mesh with Forgotten Realms history.
The passage of the Dead Three doesn't discount the possibility that the quasi-divine beings left behind are avatars rather than the main bodies of the Dead Three.
Given the greed of the Dead Three (their divine realms are not something they'd give up for meddling on the mortal level), and their learning of potential consequences for messing with Ao (they're not likely to take unnecessary chances afterwards), as well as Mystra demonstrating her ability to manifest physically in a certain post-Sundering novel, it makes more sense in my opinion for the quasi-divine beings spoken of being avatars rather than the main bodies.
This would be a good interpretation, and I would use it in my campaign if I ever play this adventure or in this timeframe. Or I'll just ignore Ao's new rules entirely 
However the book is explicit that, as far as WtoC is concerned, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul have lost a lot of their power just to influence events in the material world. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 15:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't 'like' these changes, but its certainly not the worst thing I've seen. After the 4e changes, just about everything else seems pretty mild by comparison. There is a certain focus on 'The Game' in 5e, so just about everything interesting has been boiled-down to an encounter.
Hi, Mark. Long time no see  Glad you're back.
Anyways, are you talking about the gods that ended up being aspects of other gods? Or just the gods that got killed for no reason?
As for the former, I've always like that idea because it makes sense (to me, at least) that some gods may want to be worshiped by other races as well. Now that Ed has said that this is how he manage deities in his Realms, I like the idea even more.
As for the latter... well, I agree with you there. Tho, I also liked when some gods were dead as well (I'm looking at you, Myrkul). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 19:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
I think that the state of the Dead Three from the point of view of Descent Into Avernus should be approached a little carefully, like how Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes offers a different take on the origin of drow and the state of the Dark Seldarine that doesn't necessarily mesh with Forgotten Realms history.
The passage of the Dead Three doesn't discount the possibility that the quasi-divine beings left behind are avatars rather than the main bodies of the Dead Three.
Given the greed of the Dead Three (their divine realms are not something they'd give up for meddling on the mortal level), and their learning of potential consequences for messing with Ao (they're not likely to take unnecessary chances afterwards), as well as Mystra demonstrating her ability to manifest physically in a certain post-Sundering novel, it makes more sense in my opinion for the quasi-divine beings spoken of being avatars rather than the main bodies.
This would be a good interpretation, and I would use it in my campaign if I ever play this adventure or in this timeframe. Or I'll just ignore Ao's new rules entirely
However the book is explicit that, as far as WtoC is concerned, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul have lost a lot of their power just to influence events in the material world.
Actually, one can interpret the loss of power as referring to the possibility that the avatars left behind are not allowed to hold the full power of an avatar - an avatar after all does not have a required setting of consistent power level across all extensions of a god's consciousness.
To minimize meddling in mortal affairs, Ao could have decreed limits on avatars projected into Realmspace.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 26 Nov 2019 19:41:40 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2019 : 11:17:08
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One could certainly interpret it that way and WotC will (soft)retcon it at some point in the Future anyway, but the official current intend is indeed that the Three only exist in their mortal demigod forms
That has been clearly stated in Interviews with WotC about the module and the new PC game (I wonder whether they will be killable enemies in the later) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 28 Nov 2019 11:18:34 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2019 : 14:58:26
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| I am not inclined to work with 5ed Realms but if you say Fzoul is demigod and Bane became demigod... I think there would be a heated debate about a lord of tyranny title between them. For ease of worship both of them would use name of Bane afterwards so it might be a mystery as to who won and is now the Bane... (anyone with some transparent tubes, green liquid and face mask can be Bane these days) |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2019 : 16:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
One could certainly interpret it that way and WotC will (soft)retcon it at some point in the Future anyway, but the official current intend is indeed that the Three only exist in their mortal demigod forms
That has been clearly stated in Interviews with WotC about the module and the new PC game (I wonder whether they will be killable enemies in the later)
Actually WotC has not said that the Dead Three ONLY exist in mortal demigod forms. That itself is an assumption created by a lack of details. That's why it's not necessarily a retcon for the mortal forms to be avatars instead of the main bodies.
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2019 : 22:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
One could certainly interpret it that way and WotC will (soft)retcon it at some point in the Future anyway, but the official current intend is indeed that the Three only exist in their mortal demigod forms
That has been clearly stated in Interviews with WotC about the module and the new PC game (I wonder whether they will be killable enemies in the later)
Actually WotC has not said that the Dead Three ONLY exist in mortal demigod forms. That itself is an assumption created by a lack of details. That's why it's not necessarily a retcon for the mortal forms to be avatars instead of the main bodies.
Actually they have. Check the threads with the direct quotes and links to the video interviews on Enworld.
The dead three are officially (until WotC either changes their mind or maybe even just forgets whatever they said yesterday) currently exactly that. Voluntarily reduced to semi-mortal demigods in exchange for having free run on Toril.
Not merely some beefed up avatars while their true divine selfs are still fully powered chilling on the outer planes, but reduced power and possible mortality in exchange for having a direct impact on the mortal plane.
You even have to give it to WotC that his at least makes some sort of sense, otherwise you'd a pseudo ToT going on with every deity having such a special avatar running around while also still chilling on their divine thrones
Edit:
At around 4:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAveVhvydhM
At around 2:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdSoaR7SH4
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Edited by - Mirtek on 28 Nov 2019 23:09:46 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2019 : 01:09:58
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Sad.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2019 : 02:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
One could certainly interpret it that way and WotC will (soft)retcon it at some point in the Future anyway, but the official current intend is indeed that the Three only exist in their mortal demigod forms
That has been clearly stated in Interviews with WotC about the module and the new PC game (I wonder whether they will be killable enemies in the later)
Actually WotC has not said that the Dead Three ONLY exist in mortal demigod forms. That itself is an assumption created by a lack of details. That's why it's not necessarily a retcon for the mortal forms to be avatars instead of the main bodies.
Actually they have. Check the threads with the direct quotes and links to the video interviews on Enworld.
The dead three are officially (until WotC either changes their mind or maybe even just forgets whatever they said yesterday) currently exactly that. Voluntarily reduced to semi-mortal demigods in exchange for having free run on Toril.
Not merely some beefed up avatars while their true divine selfs are still fully powered chilling on the outer planes, but reduced power and possible mortality in exchange for having a direct impact on the mortal plane.
You even have to give it to WotC that his at least makes some sort of sense, otherwise you'd a pseudo ToT going on with every deity having such a special avatar running around while also still chilling on their divine thrones
Edit:
At around 4:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAveVhvydhM
At around 2:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdSoaR7SH4
In the DnD interviews, they still don't discount the Dead Three mortal forms from being avatars. A penalty can easily refer to their avatars. They can be both mortal and immortal because an avatar is still an extension of the god. The avatar is mortal while the main body is immortal.
They sacrificed their immortality in terms of their presence in the mortal realms.
Nowhere in the interviews was it said that they gave up their divine realms - they were careful only to refer to immortality/mortality, which WAS sacrificed in terms of presence in the mortal realms, but not necessarily in the other planes.
The Mulhorandi pantheon is an example of this. Their avatars were basically demigods and killable but their original bodies with higher level power were still in their divine realms, allowing them to return to Toril later on.
Also, like I said before, an AVATAR is not required to have a consistent power level. It is not necessarily imbued with overpoweringly great power even if it's from a greater god.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 29 Nov 2019 02:27:40 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2019 : 07:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
One could certainly interpret it that way and WotC will (soft)retcon it at some point in the Future anyway, but the official current intend is indeed that the Three only exist in their mortal demigod forms
That has been clearly stated in Interviews with WotC about the module and the new PC game (I wonder whether they will be killable enemies in the later)
Actually WotC has not said that the Dead Three ONLY exist in mortal demigod forms. That itself is an assumption created by a lack of details. That's why it's not necessarily a retcon for the mortal forms to be avatars instead of the main bodies.
Actually they have. Check the threads with the direct quotes and links to the video interviews on Enworld.
The dead three are officially (until WotC either changes their mind or maybe even just forgets whatever they said yesterday) currently exactly that. Voluntarily reduced to semi-mortal demigods in exchange for having free run on Toril.
Not merely some beefed up avatars while their true divine selfs are still fully powered chilling on the outer planes, but reduced power and possible mortality in exchange for having a direct impact on the mortal plane.
You even have to give it to WotC that his at least makes some sort of sense, otherwise you'd a pseudo ToT going on with every deity having such a special avatar running around while also still chilling on their divine thrones
Edit:
At around 4:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAveVhvydhM
At around 2:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdSoaR7SH4
In the DnD interviews, they still don't discount the Dead Three mortal forms from being avatars. A penalty can easily refer to their avatars. They can be both mortal and immortal because an avatar is still an extension of the god. The avatar is mortal while the main body is immortal.
They sacrificed their immortality in terms of their presence in the mortal realms.
Nowhere in the interviews was it said that they gave up their divine realms - they were careful only to refer to immortality/mortality, which WAS sacrificed in terms of presence in the mortal realms, but not necessarily in the other planes.
The Mulhorandi pantheon is an example of this. Their avatars were basically demigods and killable but their original bodies with higher level power were still in their divine realms, allowing them to return to Toril later on.
Also, like I said before, an AVATAR is not required to have a consistent power level. It is not necessarily imbued with overpoweringly great power even if it's from a greater god.
there would be no penalty or sacrifice in your version and no reason why not every single deity would do so
It would not even be anything special but merely the standard avatar procedure
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Edited by - Mirtek on 29 Nov 2019 07:59:08 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2019 : 19:18:00
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Originally posted by Mirtek
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Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
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Originally posted by Mirtek
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Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
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Originally posted by Mirtek
One could certainly interpret it that way and WotC will (soft)retcon it at some point in the Future anyway, but the official current intend is indeed that the Three only exist in their mortal demigod forms
That has been clearly stated in Interviews with WotC about the module and the new PC game (I wonder whether they will be killable enemies in the later)
Actually WotC has not said that the Dead Three ONLY exist in mortal demigod forms. That itself is an assumption created by a lack of details. That's why it's not necessarily a retcon for the mortal forms to be avatars instead of the main bodies.
Actually they have. Check the threads with the direct quotes and links to the video interviews on Enworld.
The dead three are officially (until WotC either changes their mind or maybe even just forgets whatever they said yesterday) currently exactly that. Voluntarily reduced to semi-mortal demigods in exchange for having free run on Toril.
Not merely some beefed up avatars while their true divine selfs are still fully powered chilling on the outer planes, but reduced power and possible mortality in exchange for having a direct impact on the mortal plane.
You even have to give it to WotC that his at least makes some sort of sense, otherwise you'd a pseudo ToT going on with every deity having such a special avatar running around while also still chilling on their divine thrones
Edit:
At around 4:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAveVhvydhM
At around 2:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdSoaR7SH4
In the DnD interviews, they still don't discount the Dead Three mortal forms from being avatars. A penalty can easily refer to their avatars. They can be both mortal and immortal because an avatar is still an extension of the god. The avatar is mortal while the main body is immortal.
They sacrificed their immortality in terms of their presence in the mortal realms.
Nowhere in the interviews was it said that they gave up their divine realms - they were careful only to refer to immortality/mortality, which WAS sacrificed in terms of presence in the mortal realms, but not necessarily in the other planes.
The Mulhorandi pantheon is an example of this. Their avatars were basically demigods and killable but their original bodies with higher level power were still in their divine realms, allowing them to return to Toril later on.
Also, like I said before, an AVATAR is not required to have a consistent power level. It is not necessarily imbued with overpoweringly great power even if it's from a greater god.
there would be no penalty or sacrifice in your version and no reason why not every single deity would do so
It would not even be anything special but merely the standard avatar procedure
There IS a penalty and sacrifice here: the limitation on power for the avatars and the risk that comes with that.
An avatar's death can weaken the main body, as demonstrated by Bahamut (in the form of Marduk) and Tiamat in the conclusion of the Orcgate War. The deities are limited now more than ever in the strength of their presence if they can only send (perhaps a single) avatars at power levels no higher than demigods - that's a huge penalty applied on all the gods if so.
Mystra has demonstrated in a post-Sundering novel that while remaining a greater deity (otherwise she wouldn't have the strength to regulate the Weave), she can casually send an avatar if not the main body (confirmed by appearance and physical interaction) to the mortal realms. That avatar is likely subject to the same penalty and sacrifice as the avatars of the Dead Three.
The new standard is different from before because the deities likely can no longer send avatars of such strength that they can affect entire regions at will. Now they're limited to mortal avatars vulnerable to attack from their enemies if used recklessly.
The Dead Three are also said in the interviews to have CHOSEN their current status in the mortal realms. Given their greed and ambition, at least where Bane is concerned, it would be senseless to give up the resources of their divine realms that rely on them having a certain level of strength, especially where Bane is concerned. Cyric's church would quickly gobble up Bhaal's church and Myrkul would be stomped by the likes of Lathander and Hlal. It makes far more sense, especially with the physical appearance of Mystra's avatar in combination with what was said in the interviews, that the mortal forms of the Dead Three are indeed avatars rather than the main bodies.
Evidence in the canon literature supports the premise that the mortal forms of the Dead Three are avatars rather than the main bodies.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 29 Nov 2019 19:20:10 |
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Any mention of Fzoul in 5e?
