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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2019 : 20:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Particularly -- since it relates to the topic -- Leira. How would her resurrection have happened, if it wasn't a handwave from Ao?
Well, if I remember correctly after the Spellplague Cyric was shackled somewhere and then after that him and his minions kind of sat on the backseat chilling and doing nothing.
All the while the ancient past was obfuscated, lies were spread, an entire century-worth of history simply disappeared. All in the mist of time among whispers, whispers with a sentience that drove people to lie, to forget, to avoid sharing information. Whispers that rode on the bluefire and the spellscars as if related to the essence of magic itself, or to part of it. Among the confusion only a small string of letters kept resurfacing: the only decipherable bit of ancient tomes, etched on stone walls of long forgotten chambers and cellars and whispered by the explorers of buried ruins ... "Leira" ...
[So in essence the retcons and handwaving and downright errors and mistakes (like the sun conjured by Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir over Elversult moving to Elturel because someone can't read) of late-3E and 4E were all lies and the work of the Lady of Mist that literally erased history and knowledge both of the ancient and recent past (the "Lost Years" are quite literally so, to the horror of the Oghmanytes). Contingencies planned centuries ago but that were kept in check by the sovereignity of Mystra over all magic and the unceasing work of Savras, were released when the Lady of Magic died by the hand of the same deity that had slain Leira herself and would thus be responsible for her resurrection, a century and some spare years later] |
Edited by - Demzer on 25 Apr 2019 20:39:15 |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2019 : 21:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
"Leira has worn many masks, and more than once has been thought to be dead or to be another deity altogether. Perhaps such a reputation is only natural for the goddess of illusion and deception. Her faithful agree that whatever the "truth" might be, their Lady takes great delight in the confusion sown by her various incarnations. Even the faithful of Cyric once taught that their god killed Leira, but now they espouse the strange idea that somehow she is his daughter."
It all adds up to not only is she not dead, she was never dead. What she was doing is the real question.
Looks to me like she's attempting to usurp Cyric by stealing his own worshipers. Perhaps an attempt at revenge? |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2019 : 23:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The deity of deception would only be Cyric if Ao was telling the truth... Bit of an ouroboros there... Your assumption here is Leira is dead. Based on the evidence that Ao confirms Leira is dead. Supported by the evidenced that Ao confirmed Leira was dead. This is the beginning and the end of the whole thing... One sentence from so long ago.
As for whether truth and deception make the world go round - Lady Leira would dispute your claim - especially since they certainly make this argument go round and round year after year :P (this book is 26 years ago now :) )
Also, since when does killing a God mean you get their portfolio? Is Helm the God of Magic or Torm the God of Tyranny? Or all the countless other examples... That's not how it works and the assumption that Cyric becomes the god of lies because he killed Leira never made sense on those grounds.
It makes far more sense that bat-shit-crazy Cyric believes he's the god of lies because he was lied to by Leira and then spends the next 20 years or so (that's nothing at all to a God) running around being crazy and claiming to be the god of lies even though faithful of Leira will not confirm it. The not confirming it part only makes sense if Leira is alive, because if Cyric was really their god then he obviously would want them to confirm it since he keeps claiming it.
If I am Ao - this is the first entertainment I've had in millennia so why mess it all up by telling the boring old truth? Much better to put on the old imperious voice and lecture the children to do what they are supposed to do.
Love you man. Truly. I do. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2019 : 23:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The statement that Leira is dead is based on Ao saying she's dead, multiple sourcebooks saying she's dead, her continued absence from the setting, and the fact that according to the same source material, her portfolios had all been passed on to someone else. It's not an assumption when every single bit of material says the exact same thing.
So either every single bit of relevant Realmslore is wrong, or the assumption that Leira is playing some game is wrong.
And I'm going to stick with what's in my sourcebooks. Canon Realmslore, in multiple sources, says Cyric killed her, and there is nothing that even suggests that this isn't the case.
If you want to convince me that she didn't die, offer me some canon Realmslore that says it.
She's back. Canon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 00:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Actually she must not neccessarily be murdered on her home plane, as long as she was present in her true self wherever she was slain.
It's just that deities usually never personally leave their realms and only send avatars instead.
It doesn't seem to work like that at least in the early novels like Finder's Stone. There is not a single mention of the word "avatar" in Azure Bonds and seems to heavily imply that Moander there is indeed Moander.
Well, to take that down another path... maybe Moander isn't truly a "god" per se... he might be a primordial... a far realm entity... some kind of dark archfey... all of which can grant spells LIKE a god, such that mortals perceive them as gods. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 00:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Not all those source books say she's dead - several say she MIGHT be dead or that she is BELIEVED dead.
"During the Time of Troubles, it was widely reported that Leira had been destroyed and that no Avatar had replaced her in the pantheon. However, Leiran specialty priests are still receiving their spells and powers, which indicates this may be a lie or that an avatar has come forward, or that another deity has picked up the portfolio of the Lady of the Mists. Official statements by the church say there is no trouble and Leira emerged from the Troubles more powerful than before. However, given the fact that most official statements are lies, most people believe her dead. But since the church knows that most people believe the statements are
lies, Leira could stage her own death, report the truth, and have everyone believe her dead."
That discrepancy alone was like someone at TSR standing up and waving and saying LOOK AT THIS! SHE'S NOT REALLY DEAD!
Remember her original description:
"Leira can be anything, anywhere, that is not what it seems."
Obviously her "death" was not what it seems.
Then we get to the heart of the matter: PRINCE OF LIES The source of that troublesome quote.
AFTER Cyric claimed to have slain Leira and taken her portfolio, he says this:
"Tell me, Chess," Cyric demanded sharply, "do you still pray to Leira for a way to hide your disgusting gut from your courtesans? Illusions only conceal so much, you know."
If Cyric had slain Leira and taken her portfolio and worshipers, he would already know the answer to this. CONFIRMATION Cyric did not have Leira's portfolio at that time.
In the same book we have this:
"Leira is the Goddess of Deception," Oghma noted. This wouldn't be the first time she obscured her whereabouts from us, simply to prove her power to hide outstrips our ability and patience to seek."
All the newer sources just took the simple Leira's dead and ran with it. Third hand information dumbed down over the years. Remember - the reason those sourcebooks said she's dead is because Ao said she's dead. We're back to chasing our own tails again :)
So that brings us to 5th Ed.
"Leira has worn many masks, and more than once has been thought to be dead or to be another deity altogether. Perhaps such a reputation is only natural for the goddess of illusion and deception. Her faithful agree that whatever the "truth" might be, their Lady takes great delight in the confusion sown by her various incarnations. Even the faithful of Cyric once taught that their god killed Leira, but now they espouse the strange idea that somehow she is his daughter."
It all adds up to not only is she not dead, she was never dead. What she was doing is the real question.
Love all that... main thing I love is that "in 5e he's her daughter". Let's take that to another level with the concept that she "was" the Cyrinishad… she infected his mind... then POOF much like Athena being born from Zeus's brain.... she was "birthed" from Cyric's mind anew. When? Well, let's make it at a most opportune time for her... when Cyric was in Mystra's realm, just about to murder Mystra, so that she could help save (of all people)... Savras.... who had foreseen his need of her aid to survive the spellplague... and had forewarned her of a way to not be killed herself. Does that work? Any major flaws?
Maybe she even setup Cyric to be picked up by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune afterward. She could have done all kinds of things while in Dweomerheart prior to Cyric killing Mystra. For instance, maybe she warned Velsharoon that MAYBE he should instill himself in that phylactery he had hidden in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar for a little while, because dweomerheart was about to collapse.... just as a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Apr 2019 02:11:37 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 00:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not mind speculating on how she returned. All we know is that several formerly dead deities are suddenly not dead. We can assume Ao brought them back, though even that is incredibly problematic.
I wish that WotC had given us anything concrete, instead of just a vague "it happened."
I'd prefer to think that only a handful -- if that many -- of the formerly dead gods returned, and that each had a different method of rebirth. Bhaal had his Bhaalspawn, but what about the others?
Particularly -- since it relates to the topic -- Leira. How would her resurrection have happened, if it wasn't a handwave from Ao?
One of the things I've been working from as an idea is that MANY of these returning deities were working to restore the goddess of magic... that goddess being Mystra I (because we don't definitively KNOW that the goddess we have NOW is Midnight). So, what deities am I talking about?
Savras, Leira, Velsharoon (my posit here is that the being active after the spellplague and killed by the Simbul was in fact Mellifleur), Deneir (as a god of books and runes, that includes spellbooks, scrolls, glyphs, etc..), Auppenser, Kereska the Wonderbringer (draconic god of magic), Karsus, Finder Wyvernspur, and interestingly... the red knight as a goddess of spell tactics (who was believed to active on Toril... so maybe it was actually that Metahel goddess Sifya, the red war goddess...). Note, of these, Finder's the one that I'm "meh" about because he may have officially been in 4e as a god.... but it helps to have a god of "bardic magic".
Also, some other deities that disappeared during the spellplague may have helped matters in different ways just to piss off say some other goddess trying to seize magic, shadows, and destruction (for instance, Lathander as a god of rebirth and light might just want to see Mystra "reborn".... Mask as a god of intrigues.. Talos who was also at one point a god of wild and destructive magic in the name Malyk.. and we also see "Malyk" returned now, who was a god raised after the ToT by Talos... just like Velsharoon.... almost like there was a reason Talos was raising up these gods.... one of whom was known to be almost like a double spy working in both Shar's and Mystra's court.... wonder if he got the Karsestone when Shar's followers.... ). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Apr 2019 00:53:01 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 02:28:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Savras, Leira, Velsharoon (my posit here is that the being active after the spellplague and killed by the Simbul was in fact Mellifleur)
That's seriously out of character for Mellifleur. His entire shtick is about laying low, avoiding other deities. Going after some random wizardess that has nothing to do with his portfolio and that has never offended him personally seems way out of the ballpark for him.
Personally, I don't think the Simbul has any business going around killing Lesser Powers. A confrontation between Mellifleur and the Simbul should end up with him turning her into a pretzel - she doesn't have divine backing, and Mellifleur is specifically a deity of magic in addition to lichdom.
I mean, my personal theory prior to 5e was that the Lord of Liches allowed the Simbul to 'destroy' his physical body, while splitting his divine essence between his servant liches. To make matters worse, she made off with his staff of office, and such close contact with a relic of such power is what's driving her insane. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 11:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 93, Faiths & Avatars:
quote:
Despite a fog of counterclaims and declarations, Leira perished shortly after the Time of Troubles at the hands of Cyric and Mask (in the form of Godsbane). Mask betrayed her to Cyric, and the goddess’s portfolio was subsumed by Cyric. Churches of Leira still operate, and their priests receive spells, but these are granted by Cyric in the guise of Leira, although the Leiran either do not know (most of them) or do not care.
Page 130, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3E):
quote:
(It’s because here, the deity of murder killed Leira, the former goddess of illusion.)
Same book, page 264:
quote:
Cyric then slew Leira, goddess of deception and illusions, with Godsbane and absorbed her portfolio.
That's just from the pdfs I have handy... But that's two sourcebooks and a novel that unequivocably state that she's dead, compared to another that doesn't say one way or another.
As I said, the newer sources... they took the dead thing and ran off with it... oblivious to the truth I just revealed to you  - each one refers to the one before, so while you're thinking of each one as confirmation of the last, in reality you have one source that gets repeated and twisted.... like that telephone game that children play.
Mystra: "It seems like Leira is dead"
Early 2nd E "Leira might be dead but is likely faking"
Mid 2nd E "What? Leira might be dead?"
Late 2nd E "Leira's dead"
Later E: "Leira is dead and all those rumors she's not are crazy"
Our Amiable Hamster Friend: "See - Its canon - She's dead!"
Meanwhile Leira and her faithful: "This is too easy" |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 26 Apr 2019 11:22:26 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 11:21:06
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I do like the idea that Savras saw the Spellplague and its repeat coming and was able to warn enough gods to prepare for it... Perhaps the blue fire could have burned them away had they not.
While its kind of crappy for gods to bail out and let the mortals fend for themselves for a century, it fits really well with the Realms Pantheon structure.
This doesn't help explaining the Drow god nonsense or some of the other crap from 4th E's GOD MESS but it does cover more than any one idea has any right to account for.
The only problem is why wouldn't he prevent it from happening...
It does make me think of one character from one of the Halruaa stories, who saw every possible eventuality and so could control the future but its infinite complexities made that very complicated. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 14:02:51
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I personally don't like the idea of anyone foreseeing the Spellplague, because it causes too many issues. If a deity foresaw it, why didn't they do something? If a mortal foresaw it, how were they able to see something coming that deities can't see?
The easier approach is that any contingency plans, like Bhaal and his spawn, were more of a general contingency, something set up without knowledge of when it would be needed or the exact circumstances. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 20:16:58
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Perhaps foresaw is the wrong spin, maybe - "just knew the turmoil of the Time of troubles was not really over and that more gods were going to die.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 22:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Savras, Leira, Velsharoon (my posit here is that the being active after the spellplague and killed by the Simbul was in fact Mellifleur)
That's seriously out of character for Mellifleur. His entire shtick is about laying low, avoiding other deities. Going after some random wizardess that has nothing to do with his portfolio and that has never offended him personally seems way out of the ballpark for him.
Personally, I don't think the Simbul has any business going around killing Lesser Powers. A confrontation between Mellifleur and the Simbul should end up with him turning her into a pretzel - she doesn't have divine backing, and Mellifleur is specifically a deity of magic in addition to lichdom.
I mean, my personal theory prior to 5e was that the Lord of Liches allowed the Simbul to 'destroy' his physical body, while splitting his divine essence between his servant liches. To make matters worse, she made off with his staff of office, and such close contact with a relic of such power is what's driving her insane.
Bear in mind, the idea here is that Velsharoon used Mellifleur's phylactery to ascend (amongst several other divine artifacts of other divine powers of death), and he did so AFTER the ToT when the rules for gods changed. So, Mellifleur was weakened by not having a lot of worshippers in Toril. When Velsharoon gets sent to Abeir, maybe Mellifleur can come back, but he can't seize Vel's portfolios.. he's just a god of liches again, and weakened at that at having just returned. So, basically, maybe he didn't assault the Simbul. Maybe the Simbul assaulted him. And when you say she didn't have divine backing... she was still a battery of sorts for the weave. That being said, after that confrontation, she was weak and most folks thought she died.
That being said, of all the parts of this, that part I'm not stuck on. It could have just been some powerful lich from Faerun's past or something else entirely. Whatever makes a good story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 22:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do like the idea that Savras saw the Spellplague and its repeat coming and was able to warn enough gods to prepare for it... Perhaps the blue fire could have burned them away had they not.
While its kind of crappy for gods to bail out and let the mortals fend for themselves for a century, it fits really well with the Realms Pantheon structure.
This doesn't help explaining the Drow god nonsense or some of the other crap from 4th E's GOD MESS but it does cover more than any one idea has any right to account for.
The only problem is why wouldn't he prevent it from happening...
It does make me think of one character from one of the Halruaa stories, who saw every possible eventuality and so could control the future but its infinite complexities made that very complicated.
On that idea... maybe gods/overgods COULDN'T stop it... they were merging in some way that they couldn't control (not even Ao). The worlds for SOME REASON were going to collide, and maybe this has happened more than a few times in the past. For all we know, when Karsus died... that's when Maztica and Anchorome actually arrived from Abeir (assuming that's where they were). So, some of them just tried to take advantage of the "cycle". Others foresaw things coming, and just tried to figure out a way to let things happen but still be able to return (maybe Mystra I challenged Helm so that SHE wouldn't be in that driver's seat that Midnight ended up in... in essence, Midnight was a short term sacrificial lamb... same with Cyric....) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 22:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Perhaps foresaw is the wrong spin, maybe - "just knew the turmoil of the Time of troubles was not really over and that more gods were going to die.
Or foresaw that Cyric would kill Mystra, but not that the worlds would collide. Maybe foresaw that when said happened that they'd need some means to protect themselves as the divine realm fell apart. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2019 : 20:58:35
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Oh, and as long as we are discussing this topic... so AFTER Leira "recreated" herself as the Cyrinishad…. did she then create another book "avatar" of herself as the Tome of Fastrin the Delver? Did she describe a powerful ritual which would turn someone into a god (i.e. the Ritual of Unmaking)? Did such a ritual involve draining power from the Athora, and that's why Szass Tam performed his creation of the Towers in Thay? Did those Towers possess portions of the Athora? Did Leira TWIST the ritual subtly in a way that Szass Tam didn't realize, and the casting of this ritual actually drain the power of portions of the Athora, and THIS is what was used to bring Mystra back to life? In other words, did this basically kick off the Sundering and all the ensuing things that happened over the next decade? Was ALL of this the activities of Leira tricking Szass Tam... possibly under the orders of Ao mind you.... and all intent with the purpose of restoring Mystra and/or re-separating the two worlds? After all, we do know that Szass Tam and Leira do NOT necessarily like each other according to at least one short story (forget the name of it).
Since the place where Fastrin the Delver ruled (in the sunrise mountains) also once a land where someone messed with the energies of the athora? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2019 : 22:33:24
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Also, it just occurred to me that perhaps some artifacts of Toril went to Abeir, and the gods of magic may have been focused on such. For instance, the Guardian's Tear (which was supposedly a tear from Helm dropped from killing Mystra during the ToT).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Guardian%27s_Tear
This artifact was picked up by drow followers of the Cult of Malyk (a being raised by Talos to godhood and then "possibly" absorbed by him). So, possibly Malyk's involvement in Abeir as a god of magic involves his followers and the guardian's tear being used to bring Mystra and/or Helm back to life. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chosen of Leira?
