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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  17:15:15  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.

-- George Krashos



Said like a true Chosen!



As a co-author of "Faiths & Avatars", a reputed source of lies an misinformation, I can neither confirm nor deny that the write-up of Leira's fate was or was not the subject of conspiriatorial conspirings.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  17:43:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Because holding up the lie of a goddess of lies wouldn't be fully within the cards for Ao? Along these lines, its often been unclear the exact nature of what's going on with the gods until later lore is released (for instance, Bane and Xvim... which is still unclear). I'm just holding to the idea that even Ed put forth.... "Gods are the biggest liars of them all"... well, Leira would be the best of those... except for perhaps an overgod who wants everyone to think he's all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything.... and when you're presenting yourself before a collection of your subordinates, that's a perfect time to push those views.



Ao IS "all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything." The Time of Troubles proved that, and so does the Sundering.

You're suggesting that either Ao was mistaken or lying.

The first would mean that the entity would could elevate or demote any god on a whim, or even demote them all, simultaneously, would somehow be ignorant of whether or not a deity was alive.

I find this implausible.

Alternatively, Ao was lying.

But Cyric knew he had murdered Leira, he had her portfolios, and he was answering the prayers of her followers.

Yes, I get that Leira is all about lies and deception. But I don't see any reason why Ao would lie, and even if he was inclined to lie, there is absolutely no indication that Leira was alive. Every single bit of evidence, including the words of someone with no reason to lie, said she was dead.

Honestly, if you're going to say Ao was lying, I'd like to see a plausible reason for him to lie. I'd like to see something backing up this claim that Leira was somehow still around, despite the god of murder and death knowing he had killed her, despite her having no divine portfolios, and despite someone else answering prayers in her name -- which would mean nothing to sustain her.

Every bit of information said that Leira was dead. Nothing at all indicates otherwise. I simply do not understand why the argument keeps getting raised that every bit of information we have is incorrect.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2019 17:45:34
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  17:55:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The joys of a god centric model setting.

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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe

106 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  18:13:28  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But Cyric knew he had murdered Leira, he had her portfolios, and he was answering the prayers of her followers.

I thought a deity can give up their portfolios willingly and without dying, kinda like Jergal did.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  19:08:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Because holding up the lie of a goddess of lies wouldn't be fully within the cards for Ao? Along these lines, its often been unclear the exact nature of what's going on with the gods until later lore is released (for instance, Bane and Xvim... which is still unclear). I'm just holding to the idea that even Ed put forth.... "Gods are the biggest liars of them all"... well, Leira would be the best of those... except for perhaps an overgod who wants everyone to think he's all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything.... and when you're presenting yourself before a collection of your subordinates, that's a perfect time to push those views.



Ao IS "all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything." The Time of Troubles proved that, and so does the Sundering.

You're suggesting that either Ao was mistaken or lying.

The first would mean that the entity would could elevate or demote any god on a whim, or even demote them all, simultaneously, would somehow be ignorant of whether or not a deity was alive.

I find this implausible.

Alternatively, Ao was lying.

But Cyric knew he had murdered Leira, he had her portfolios, and he was answering the prayers of her followers.

Yes, I get that Leira is all about lies and deception. But I don't see any reason why Ao would lie, and even if he was inclined to lie, there is absolutely no indication that Leira was alive. Every single bit of evidence, including the words of someone with no reason to lie, said she was dead.

Honestly, if you're going to say Ao was lying, I'd like to see a plausible reason for him to lie. I'd like to see something backing up this claim that Leira was somehow still around, despite the god of murder and death knowing he had killed her, despite her having no divine portfolios, and despite someone else answering prayers in her name -- which would mean nothing to sustain her.

Every bit of information said that Leira was dead. Nothing at all indicates otherwise. I simply do not understand why the argument keeps getting raised that every bit of information we have is incorrect.



The Sundering proved nothing to me about Ao…. he could have been lying and the worlds were bound to "collide". He may not have had any real measure of control over what happened for all we know.

As to why might Ao lie? Why not? If she's performing her job... and he's all about her doing her job... why wouldn't he support her? I can come up with other reasons as well, which I have over time, such as him using her during the spellplague years. That being said, I'm not interested in a big fight over this.

As to Cyric "knowing" she was dead... if Mask and Leira were working together to conceal her death and "infect" Cyric for their own ends (you know, drive him insane, make sure he doesn't become too powerful, etc...), I could easily see them creating such an lieful intrigue. If Godsbane "held" Leira for some time until she could be "reconstituted" as the Cyrinishad and then infect Cyric with madness that made him lose power... hey, its one idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  19:10:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But Cyric knew he had murdered Leira, he had her portfolios, and he was answering the prayers of her followers.

I thought a deity can give up their portfolios willingly and without dying, kinda like Jergal did.



Which just to throw out there.... Jergal did to who??? Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul.... the three gods whose power got infused into who? Cyric. Just saying, an awful lot of coincidence in these things. Why after all DID Jergal give up his power?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  19:57:24  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jergal's origin and story is a key piece of a certain project I've been working on for fun ...

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  20:17:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Jergal's origin and story is a key piece of a certain project I've been working on for fun ...



Be intrigued to read it (and I'll bite... what project would that be?). The whole thing wherein a god basically had to be setup to be the "fall guy" for the "spellplague" (at least kinda) and imprisoned/punished for it (i.e. Cyric was imprisoned)… it just makes me think somebody had some insight, even if it was vague and unclear. After all, it was those same three that gods that kicked off the ToT together, all to challenge the power of the overgod… as if they had some kind of inkling that his powers just may not be unassailable. Maybe he had a warning though and transferred the power out of them... or had a contingency to do that and cast the gods out of heaven if they were disturbed. Maybe his auto defenses kicked in, and then he had to figure out who did it.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Apr 2019 20:28:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  20:21:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Because holding up the lie of a goddess of lies wouldn't be fully within the cards for Ao? Along these lines, its often been unclear the exact nature of what's going on with the gods until later lore is released (for instance, Bane and Xvim... which is still unclear). I'm just holding to the idea that even Ed put forth.... "Gods are the biggest liars of them all"... well, Leira would be the best of those... except for perhaps an overgod who wants everyone to think he's all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything.... and when you're presenting yourself before a collection of your subordinates, that's a perfect time to push those views.



Ao IS "all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything." The Time of Troubles proved that, and so does the Sundering.

You're suggesting that either Ao was mistaken or lying.

The first would mean that the entity would could elevate or demote any god on a whim, or even demote them all, simultaneously, would somehow be ignorant of whether or not a deity was alive.

I find this implausible.

Alternatively, Ao was lying.

But Cyric knew he had murdered Leira, he had her portfolios, and he was answering the prayers of her followers.

Yes, I get that Leira is all about lies and deception. But I don't see any reason why Ao would lie, and even if he was inclined to lie, there is absolutely no indication that Leira was alive. Every single bit of evidence, including the words of someone with no reason to lie, said she was dead.

Honestly, if you're going to say Ao was lying, I'd like to see a plausible reason for him to lie. I'd like to see something backing up this claim that Leira was somehow still around, despite the god of murder and death knowing he had killed her, despite her having no divine portfolios, and despite someone else answering prayers in her name -- which would mean nothing to sustain her.

Every bit of information said that Leira was dead. Nothing at all indicates otherwise. I simply do not understand why the argument keeps getting raised that every bit of information we have is incorrect.



The Sundering proved nothing to me about Ao…. he could have been lying and the worlds were bound to "collide". He may not have had any real measure of control over what happened for all we know.

As to why might Ao lie? Why not? If she's performing her job... and he's all about her doing her job... why wouldn't he support her? I can come up with other reasons as well, which I have over time, such as him using her during the spellplague years. That being said, I'm not interested in a big fight over this.

As to Cyric "knowing" she was dead... if Mask and Leira were working together to conceal her death and "infect" Cyric for their own ends (you know, drive him insane, make sure he doesn't become too powerful, etc...), I could easily see them creating such an lieful intrigue. If Godsbane "held" Leira for some time until she could be "reconstituted" as the Cyrinishad and then infect Cyric with madness that made him lose power... hey, its one idea.



How could Leira do her job with no portfolios or power?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  23:11:28  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would have thought Cyric’s seeming Post-1385 DR fate would mean that many of his portfolios and worshippers would be lost to him ...

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2019 :  23:59:04  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Crown of Earlann. Jergal plays a key role in the backstory.

--Eric

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Jergal's origin and story is a key piece of a certain project I've been working on for fun ...



Be intrigued to read it (and I'll bite... what project would that be?). The whole thing wherein a god basically had to be setup to be the "fall guy" for the "spellplague" (at least kinda) and imprisoned/punished for it (i.e. Cyric was imprisoned)… it just makes me think somebody had some insight, even if it was vague and unclear. After all, it was those same three that gods that kicked off the ToT together, all to challenge the power of the overgod… as if they had some kind of inkling that his powers just may not be unassailable. Maybe he had a warning though and transferred the power out of them... or had a contingency to do that and cast the gods out of heaven if they were disturbed. Maybe his auto defenses kicked in, and then he had to figure out who did it.




--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2019 :  02:15:25  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.

-- George Krashos



Said like a true Chosen!



As a co-author of "Faiths & Avatars", a reputed source of lies an misinformation, I can neither confirm nor deny that the write-up of Leira's fate was or was not the subject of conspiriatorial conspirings.



Love it.

The real question would be, I guess, at what level was the conspiracy? Above your heads or under your noses? :P

As for "Ao the Great And Powerful", like Oz he's just the man behind the curtain. If he was so overpowerful he'd be overgod of ALL the pantheons, not just the Realmspace ones. You know - he'd be 'the one who is called I Am!'

Fortunately, with all the gods in D&D they never did a GOD, which nicely sidesteps such concerns nicely :)

Why would Ao the powerful lie? Well, lets review what Ao does - he pretty much does nothing but maintain the basic rules of the gods. If there is a god of deception then obviously "be truthful" is not one of the rules. What does seem to be a part of the rules is that everyone fulfills their specific role. Maintaining the biggest deceit of the goddess of deception would be helping her to fulfill that role in my mind.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2019 :  02:17:06  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.

-- George Krashos



Said like a true Chosen!



As a co-author of "Faiths & Avatars", a reputed source of lies an misinformation, I can neither confirm nor deny that the write-up of Leira's fate was or was not the subject of conspiriatorial conspirings.



Love it.

The real question would be, I guess, at what level was the conspiracy? Above your heads or under your noses? :P




I recommend we commission Robert Mueller to look into this post haste.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2019 :  08:22:57  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.

-- George Krashos



Said like a true Chosen!



As a co-author of "Faiths & Avatars", a reputed source of lies an misinformation, I can neither confirm nor deny that the write-up of Leira's fate was or was not the subject of conspiriatorial conspirings.



Love it.

The real question would be, I guess, at what level was the conspiracy? Above your heads or under your noses? :P

As for "Ao the Great And Powerful", like Oz he's just the man behind the curtain. If he was so overpowerful he'd be overgod of ALL the pantheons, not just the Realmspace ones. You know - he'd be 'the one who is called I Am!'

Fortunately, with all the gods in D&D they never did a GOD, which nicely sidesteps such concerns nicely :)

Why would Ao the powerful lie? Well, lets review what Ao does - he pretty much does nothing but maintain the basic rules of the gods. If there is a god of deception then obviously "be truthful" is not one of the rules. What does seem to be a part of the rules is that everyone fulfills their specific role. Maintaining the biggest deceit of the goddess of deception would be helping her to fulfill that role in my mind.



We have no instances of AO lying at any point in the story, so this is all desperate conjecture. If AO was so insistent on deities upholding every aspect of their portfolio, he wouldn't have booted out the entire pantheon because Bane had usurped the Tablets of Fate in an effort to elevate himself as Supreme Tyrant of All.

Basically, AO has no reason to lie about Leira's death. If that's the case, then the entire history of the Realms might as well be a case of the Unreliable Narrator, and the Simbul is simultaneously a heroine and also someone who enters the homes of Red Wizards to devour young Mulan children while their parents are asleep.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2019 :  09:23:03  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The entire history of the realms should be (and is for me) written by an unreliable narrator.
A single footnote in history does not convey the complexity of any situation or the nuances of human personality that cover every single real world event of importance or unimportance. The people of realmslore should not be goody two shoes, unable to even think about an evil act. The endless argument of which omnipotent munchkin is better than which other omnipotent munchkin has mired universes like marvel and DC for years. I do not find the realms enriched by the constant discussions over which god would allow or not allow something to happen and whether some uber munchkin with power over everything would allow anything to happen.
If it doesn't happen on Toril does it really matter or affect anyone in the fictional setting.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2019 :  12:25:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.

-- George Krashos



Said like a true Chosen!



As a co-author of "Faiths & Avatars", a reputed source of lies an misinformation, I can neither confirm nor deny that the write-up of Leira's fate was or was not the subject of conspiriatorial conspirings.



Love it.

The real question would be, I guess, at what level was the conspiracy? Above your heads or under your noses? :P

As for "Ao the Great And Powerful", like Oz he's just the man behind the curtain. If he was so overpowerful he'd be overgod of ALL the pantheons, not just the Realmspace ones. You know - he'd be 'the one who is called I Am!'

Fortunately, with all the gods in D&D they never did a GOD, which nicely sidesteps such concerns nicely :)

Why would Ao the powerful lie? Well, lets review what Ao does - he pretty much does nothing but maintain the basic rules of the gods. If there is a god of deception then obviously "be truthful" is not one of the rules. What does seem to be a part of the rules is that everyone fulfills their specific role. Maintaining the biggest deceit of the goddess of deception would be helping her to fulfill that role in my mind.



We have no instances of AO lying at any point in the story, so this is all desperate conjecture. If AO was so insistent on deities upholding every aspect of their portfolio, he wouldn't have booted out the entire pantheon because Bane had usurped the Tablets of Fate in an effort to elevate himself as Supreme Tyrant of All.

Basically, AO has no reason to lie about Leira's death. If that's the case, then the entire history of the Realms might as well be a case of the Unreliable Narrator, and the Simbul is simultaneously a heroine and also someone who enters the homes of Red Wizards to devour young Mulan children while their parents are asleep.



Unless Ao didn't actually KNOW who had taken the tablets... and he'd actually setup some kind of defenses that if someone touches them the whole pantheon gets booted. Remember, the story line was that "we need to find out who took the tablets of fate", so initially he wasn't blaming the dark three. It was later that he said "and I've always known, muahahahaha". Which if he wanted to portray himself as all powerful and all knowing....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2019 :  19:36:25  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Exactly. The only evidence we have that Ao is all powerful is that he is more powerful than the other gods... that's not all that great. Pretty much everything we know he's done has been a failure at some point - like creating the tablets in he first place which in the end mean nothing.

As far as whether he lied - you think there are no instances of Ao lying, but you have no evidence of that because you simply take everything he says as truth. Believing that Ao is somehow inherently honest is your own baggage. A god committed to balance in all things - which he claims to be - would balance truth and honesty with lies and deception. Think of him as that True Neutral character everyone is scared to play because they don't understand a complex moral code that has infinite shades of gray instead of black and white.

In other words, you say "We have no instances of AO lying at any point in the story" in a "desperate" hope that it is true and I say "Oh yeah? Prove it!" Sorry, but that can't be done.

As far as Ao insisting that deities uphold their portfolio, that is literally the subject matter of every diatribe he's ever given, including the one in which he says Leira is dead... The sum of that speech is simply: both Cyric and Mask are following their portfolio. Mystra, you are not, so I'm going to spank you.

The big problem with this is the idea, demonstrated over and over again, that deities can change their portfolios, but that is a whole other topic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  00:21:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being committed to balance doesn't mean being obligated to lie, and honestly, I wouldn't even include truth and deception in the Balance that Ao maintains. Truth and deception aren't what makes the world go round.

Ao is about the balance of everything -- him telling a lie not only isn't going to tip things one way or the other, it would be interfering with the portfolio of the deity of deception, who was, at that point, Cyric.

Ao thinks much bigger than what a single lie would do, and he lets his deities run their own portfolios. It would have been Cyric's job to spread enough lies, not Ao's, and certainly not Leira's, since she was dead and no longer had that portfolio.

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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  01:38:53  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The deity of deception would only be Cyric if Ao was telling the truth... Bit of an ouroboros there... Your assumption here is Leira is dead. Based on the evidence that Ao confirms Leira is dead. Supported by the evidenced that Ao confirmed Leira was dead. This is the beginning and the end of the whole thing... One sentence from so long ago.

As for whether truth and deception make the world go round - Lady Leira would dispute your claim - especially since they certainly make this argument go round and round year after year :P (this book is 26 years ago now :) )

Also, since when does killing a God mean you get their portfolio? Is Helm the God of Magic or Torm the God of Tyranny? Or all the countless other examples... That's not how it works and the assumption that Cyric becomes the god of lies because he killed Leira never made sense on those grounds.

It makes far more sense that bat-shit-crazy Cyric believes he's the god of lies because he was lied to by Leira and then spends the next 20 years or so (that's nothing at all to a God) running around being crazy and claiming to be the god of lies even though faithful of Leira will not confirm it. The not confirming it part only makes sense if Leira is alive, because if Cyric was really their god then he obviously would want them to confirm it since he keeps claiming it.

If I am Ao - this is the first entertainment I've had in millennia so why mess it all up by telling the boring old truth? Much better to put on the old imperious voice and lecture the children to do what they are supposed to do.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  04:57:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The statement that Leira is dead is based on Ao saying she's dead, multiple sourcebooks saying she's dead, her continued absence from the setting, and the fact that according to the same source material, her portfolios had all been passed on to someone else. It's not an assumption when every single bit of material says the exact same thing.

So either every single bit of relevant Realmslore is wrong, or the assumption that Leira is playing some game is wrong.

And I'm going to stick with what's in my sourcebooks. Canon Realmslore, in multiple sources, says Cyric killed her, and there is nothing that even suggests that this isn't the case.

If you want to convince me that she didn't die, offer me some canon Realmslore that says it.

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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  08:59:20  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all those source books say she's dead - several say she MIGHT be dead or that she is BELIEVED dead.

"During the Time of Troubles, it was widely reported that Leira had been destroyed and that no Avatar had replaced her in the pantheon. However, Leiran specialty priests are still receiving their spells and powers, which indicates this may be a lie or that an avatar has come forward, or that another deity has picked up the portfolio of the Lady of the Mists. Official statements by the church say there is no trouble and Leira emerged from the Troubles more powerful than before. However, given the fact that most official statements are lies, most people believe her dead. But since the church knows that most people believe the statements are
lies, Leira could stage her own death, report the truth, and have everyone believe her dead."

That discrepancy alone was like someone at TSR standing up and waving and saying LOOK AT THIS! SHE'S NOT REALLY DEAD!

Remember her original description:
"Leira can be anything, anywhere, that is not what it seems."

Obviously her "death" was not what it seems.

Then we get to the heart of the matter: PRINCE OF LIES The source of that troublesome quote.

AFTER Cyric claimed to have slain Leira and taken her portfolio, he says this:

"Tell me, Chess," Cyric demanded sharply, "do you still pray to Leira for a way to hide your disgusting gut from your courtesans? Illusions only conceal so much, you know."

If Cyric had slain Leira and taken her portfolio and worshipers, he would already know the answer to this. CONFIRMATION Cyric did not have Leira's portfolio at that time.

In the same book we have this:

"Leira is the Goddess of Deception," Oghma noted. This wouldn't be the first time she obscured her whereabouts from us, simply to prove her power to hide outstrips our ability and patience to seek."

All the newer sources just took the simple Leira's dead and ran with it. Third hand information dumbed down over the years. Remember - the reason those sourcebooks said she's dead is because Ao said she's dead. We're back to chasing our own tails again :)

So that brings us to 5th Ed.

"Leira has worn many masks, and more than once has been thought to be dead or to be another deity altogether. Perhaps such a reputation is only natural for the goddess of illusion and deception. Her faithful agree that whatever the "truth" might be, their Lady takes great delight in the confusion sown by her various incarnations. Even the faithful of Cyric once taught that their god killed Leira, but now they espouse the strange idea that somehow she is his daughter."

It all adds up to not only is she not dead, she was never dead. What she was doing is the real question.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  10:21:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Page 93, Faiths & Avatars:

quote:
Despite a fog of counterclaims and declarations, Leira perished shortly after the Time of Troubles at the hands of Cyric and Mask (in the form of Godsbane). Mask betrayed her to Cyric, and the goddess’s portfolio was subsumed by Cyric. Churches of Leira still operate, and their priests receive spells, but these are granted by Cyric in the guise of Leira, although the Leiran either do not know (most of them) or do not care.


Page 130, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3E):

quote:
(It’s because here, the deity of murder killed Leira, the former goddess of illusion.)


Same book, page 264:

quote:
Cyric then slew Leira, goddess of deception and illusions, with Godsbane and absorbed her portfolio.


That's just from the pdfs I have handy... But that's two sourcebooks and a novel that unequivocably state that she's dead, compared to another that doesn't say one way or another.


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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Apr 2019 10:21:56
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Demzer
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  11:36:49  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Page 130, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3E):

quote:
(It’s because here, the deity of murder killed Leira, the former goddess of illusion.)





Just to be clear I agree that multiple, extremely reliable (the godbooks) canonical sources state with no uncertainty that Leira is dead.

But just to speculate, without the need to get into any heated debate, the above reference (which I didn't know about) made me re-check what is said in canon regarding her murder and, going by all the rules we know of regarding deicide, she is not dead. She was killed after the ToT, either only on Pandemonium (and Cyric's followers made the other reference up for whatever reason, just to have another sacred site probably) or on both Pandemonium and the Prime. Neither of which were her home plane / divine realm, so she cannot be dead by everything we know on deities deaths.

As to the long debate of "why Ao would lie", remember that at that point the fact that Mask was Godsbane was still a secret, so Ao perpetrating the lie of Leira's death would have "helped" the cause of two deities upholding their portfolios. And we know from what happened to Torm that Ao is particularly fond of deities that uphold their portfolio to the extreme, like Leira might have done surrendering her powers to Cyric to make him believe she was utterly destroyed when she actually wasn't (and the Torm precedent would even be a good post-Sundering explanation of why she is a goddess again: she held her ruse so masterfully that when Ao reshuffled the deck she was reinstated much like Torm was resurrected at the end of the ToT).

Just to reiterate, this is all idle musings. But they're entertaining.
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Mirtek
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  12:27:27  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually she must not neccessarily be murdered on her home plane, as long as she was present in her true self wherever she was slain.

It's just that deities usually never personally leave their realms and only send avatars instead.
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Demzer
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  14:42:10  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Actually she must not neccessarily be murdered on her home plane, as long as she was present in her true self wherever she was slain.

It's just that deities usually never personally leave their realms and only send avatars instead.



At least on Pandemonium, the only (unreliable) witness is Cyric himself and he explicitly speaks of an avatar (see the passage I quoted from Prince of Lies a few replies back).
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Alexander Clark
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  15:50:03  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Actually she must not neccessarily be murdered on her home plane, as long as she was present in her true self wherever she was slain.

It's just that deities usually never personally leave their realms and only send avatars instead.


It doesn't seem to work like that at least in the early novels like Finder's Stone. There is not a single mention of the word "avatar" in Azure Bonds and seems to heavily imply that Moander there is indeed Moander.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  15:58:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That whole true self thing I'm betting was contrived in a novel to make the events possible.
If a demon or devil cannot be killed while away from the abyss or baator - they just reform on that plane after a time. Presumably the same is true of other outsiders and so should also apply to the gods.

I do things a bit differently and the gods are actually their divine domain so cannot travel outside it because they are it (which is why they have control over everything in that domain and are so damn hard to kill).

But I'm sure a novel wanted a deity to die for increased effect and that had to happen on stage (I.e. the material plane) so a new rule was made that deities could transfer their entire true self to the material plane and then be killed.
Nevermind that to do such a thing and make themselves vulnerable to being slain is a monumentally stupid thing to do.

In short, the whole Gods having direct interaction with the material plane is a terrible idea and has led to nothing but problems and inconsistencies that have caused never ending circular arguments like this for decades.

Damn the time of troubles.

I agree with Demzer and Masked Mage though. The unreliability and inconsistency of multiple and often conflicting sources points to the fact that we don't have the entire story and her not dying is entirely plausible and possible (if you do the whole God nonsense thing)

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  17:30:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd not mind speculating on how she returned. All we know is that several formerly dead deities are suddenly not dead. We can assume Ao brought them back, though even that is incredibly problematic.

I wish that WotC had given us anything concrete, instead of just a vague "it happened."

I'd prefer to think that only a handful -- if that many -- of the formerly dead gods returned, and that each had a different method of rebirth. Bhaal had his Bhaalspawn, but what about the others?

Particularly -- since it relates to the topic -- Leira. How would her resurrection have happened, if it wasn't a handwave from Ao?

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  18:55:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Building from some of George's lore regarding the weave. I reckon the magical alphabet on Toril is part of that Weave, words and other components programmed into the Nether Scrolls that allows people easy access to magic spells in a less dangerous format than those of the non-weave ritual magic.

If i recall correctly, illusion magic has its own magical alphabet and thus its own miniature weave.

I dont believe the Weave covers the entire planet, it is expanded by weave anchors such as the Nether Scrolls, and the new one George detailed in the Thaymount, plus another probably in Halruaa, and the mobile Weave Anchors known as the Chosen. Over time the number of weave anchors has grown and so the size of the weave has grown. Smaller imitation weaves can overlap The Weave but have a much smaller size. Thus this illusion weave is much smaller, centred in little pockets like the citadel of mists and nimbral, it allows bonuses to illusion magic and a different way of using that illusion magic that would mean observers would find it difficult to identify what magic has been used (obscuring the truth being the whole point of illusion).

If you follow a god centric model of the setting then there is no reason why Leira could not be reborn from these powerful illusion weave anchors in the way that Mystra did with those bluefire items.

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Alexander Clark
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Posted - 25 Apr 2019 :  19:42:50  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
But I'm sure a novel wanted a deity to die for increased effect and that had to happen on stage (I.e. the material plane) so a new rule was made that deities could transfer their entire true self to the material plane and then be killed.


Actually, it's a bit different in the Finder series. In Azure Bonds heroes kill Moander in the Realms, but he still lives.
While in Song of the Saurials heroes have to go to Moander's plane to kill him once and for all.

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Damn the time of troubles.


I don't get it. So you don't like FR at least since 1989?
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