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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 00:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also bear in mind, that in those places, they've had 100 years in Abeir, so they may also be coming back changed. Populations may have become more savvy or even changed races entirely, etc... So, yeah, I'd agree, this opens up a lot of possibilities. Exactly how to deal with them is the question, but I can say most people weren't happy with the direct correlation to the Americas that was done. But we also don't want to see the place become just Faerun 2.0.
The gods of Anchorome/Maztica could have traveled together with the peoples of Anchorome/Maztica, in which case there could have been some conflict with the primordials in Abeir, and the people may be advancing their culture with materials taken from the bodies of fallen primordials.
That is in fact my take on the area, which is a little different from Seethyr's. One twist to that is that I believe Ubtao IS Qotal, and Ubtao IS a primordial. If you look at most of the other children of Maztica, they could all easily be called primordials (Kukul = sky, Maztica = Earth, Qotal = Air/wind, Azul = Rain, Plutoq = earth/stone, Tezca = Sun/Fire, Eha = Wind, Watil = Wood/Plants, Nula = Animals, Zaltec = Bloodthirsty animals & the end of life). The one who might be hard to explain away is Kiltzi. So, they may be Primordials who reappeared to their worshippers AT TIMES to defend them or guide them, or simply to encourage their worship.
Along these same lines, I think the great spirits of Anchorome might also have appeared to their worshippers, and I've been developing a pantheon for the metahel which would also have been with their people while in Abeir. Along similar lines, I'm doing something similar with some of the Untheric deities and the Mulan people who transferred over (which remember, prior to the ToT, all of these deities were manifestations on the world). I've also been developing beings of power for Katashaka to have worshipped (whether they were gods, primordials, archfey, primal spirits, etc... might vary from individual to individual).
One of the chief things that I'm pushing as an idea is that there were no CLERICS while on Abeir. There were PRIESTS ala this handy idea (Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class) made by someone else on DM's Guild. Link Below
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess+ancient+&filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0
Its in essence a divine spellcaster who ONLY gets spells by sacrificing to an idol that represents some linkage to their god. So, the gods NEEDED worship while in Abeir, and they couldn't grant a lot of power, so they defaulted to making people priests. So, some farmer breaks his leg, and on Toril, he'd just have to go to the local temple and ask for healing, maybe offer a prayer and some minor service. But, while they were on Abeir, maybe that farmer will have to offer to feed the temple for a month, which they offer up as food for the god in sacrifice. Maybe the farmer has to offer up 3 cows to be slaughtered, their blood drained on the altar and hearts left for the gods to eat. Maybe the farmer's family has to pay some adventurers to go capture some of those evil non-religious Abeirans to sacrifice on the altar.
sidebar on that idea, while in Abeir, arcane casters also are not as powerful. They maybe don't have to sacrifice, but maybe they have to memorize spells according to second edition rules. By that I mean maybe they had to spend 10 minutes per spell level memorizing EACH spell to put it into their heads. This is a HUGE change from 3rd edition wherein, because for any wizard above 3rd level this means that they now have to spend MORE THAN an hour each day to renew all their spells. For high level wizards, it COULD take a WEEK OR WEEKS to renew all their spells. Furthermore, there were no "cantrips" that a wizard could repeatedly cast in Abeir. While this may sound stringent to some, this is basically how 2nd edition wizards had to memorize spells (though 2nd edition spells were more broken than 3rd edition in general). This in essence though puts wizards in a precarious situation where they can't rely solely on their magic. Meanwhile, sorcerers on Abeir didn't have these restrictions, but just as they were on Toril... they knew few spells.
This in essence would put Torilians who were in Abeir at a severe disadvantage, BUT in a time of crisis, they could still call on massive magical power. Thus, they could still defend themselves. The general idea though that I have is that over time, these restrictions weakened. For instance, nearing the time of the sundering perhaps memorizing spells was going MUCH faster (maybe even to the "memorize all your spells in an hour" timeframe of 3rd edition). Maybe the amount a priest needed to sacrifice wasn't nearly as much as it was 80 years prior.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Mar 2019 03:55:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 04:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Plane Shift: Ixalan is a good example of pre-Columbian fantasy cultures well done. I guess that document is a good guide to create a Maztica that has a Pre-Columbian flavor without making it "not-colonial LatinAmerica but with elves".
https://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/magic/plane-shift_ixalan.pdf
Definitely agree, and I'm looking at some of that more for Katashaka. The imagery in that is wonderful. One of the big things I'm wanting to see in some of the undeveloped areas is to lessen human influence and instead give it to beast folk races. For instance, up in Anchorome, maybe farther north there's a lot of forests. What if these forests are filled with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Kercpa who are basically savage defenders of the wild (Kercpa are basically sentient squirrels who are literally the size of squirrels). Maybe there's a fox folk, a coyote folk, hybsils, various remnants of the aearee, bear folk who are essentially relatives of Quaggoths that never descended into the underdark, etc... Then how do we make these beast folk not just humans that look different? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 04:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Or from the bodies of fallen gods. Most primordials are stronger that even greater deities. That's why the gods banded togheter in groups of 3 to 5 during to Dawn War to face just a single primordial, and why most primordials were sealed instead of killed during that war; and why Ao deemed the creation of Abeir a necessety after the gods won: the few remaining primordials were still a threat for the gods (Entropy was used as a deterrent for the whole Faerûnian pantheon, for instance). So, in a conflict between gods and primordials, the gods are always on the losing side.
Even if those dead gods and primordials were later restored to life during the Sundering, is posible that the corpses of their former incarnations remained. And that the memory of their temporal dead haunts them still.
One option too is that many of the gods that people assumed were dead during the spellplague years and which have returned... were in Abeir. For instance, what if most of the gods of magic were in Abeir? What if some of the gods not traditionally thought of as gods of magic, became "gods of magic" while on Abeir. By that I mean let's throw out the idea that Savras, Leira, Deneir (as a god of glyphs, symbols, spellbooks, etc...), Karsus, Finder (as a god of bardic magic), and possibly Velsharoon (I got a whole story in mind for that, revolving around Velsharoon and Mellifleur... thus the "Velsharoon" slain by the Simbul may not have been "Velsharoon") and others were all in Abeir working to restore a weave there. Maybe even some gods from other pantheons POSED as Faerunians gods to Faerunians in order to get their worship (for instance, some believe that the red knight was in Abeir and not Toril... but maybe it was a goddess of the Metahel posing as the red knight... or maybe there's a deeper secret there). While in Abeir, maybe this version of the red knight also became a "god of magic" by becoming a "goddess of spell strategy".
So, the reason for me bring this all up is that in essence, they weren't "brought back to life by Ao". They were instead coming back to Toril with the sundering. Also, maybe some gods who had "died" in Toril were "resurrected" with the aid of other gods and their followers while on Abeir in order to replenish their own numbers to prepare for a primordial strike (and maybe that attack never happened, because the primordials were slowly waking up, and a mere century wasn't long enough for them to come fully awake. In fact, maybe certain gods of magic (ahem... Velsharoon..) and what they actually control were key to bringing "dead gods" back. Maybe other gods of similar bent who were stripped from the Torilian pantheons (such as Kiaransalee) were also brought back because of being able to help. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 05:05:58
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The grook with that idea is that it makes no sense to me. I mean, most of these gods are minor deities, and most primordials can easily overpower 3 to 5 greater deities fighting alone. None of these gods has a chance to survive a single primordial, even banding together.
You may point to "Gilgeam", but this Gilgeam was just a lucky guy who stole a few artifacts Graz'tz was interested in, and got a demon army. Without this army, Gilgeam would have had a dog's dead somewhere in Shyr. Even with the demon army, Namshita said that Gilgeam's chance of having won that battle wasn't 100%. Gilgeam may have got a dog's dead even with that army. Gilgeam's ass got literally saved by the Sundering.
So, I cannot picture how those gods would have been left to their own devices on Abeir, the world where the primordials reign supreme. I'm pretty sure they are still bitter for their defeat in the Dawn War, and I cannot picture Karshimis (a primordial active since before the Spellplague) not smashing any puny minor god trying to revive another gods on his turf. Or how those gods' worshipers may have survived a dragon attack long enough to create a cult big enough to give a god power to rival Karshimis (I'm reading the Rogue Dragons novels, and seeing all the chaos the dragons of Toril caused, I cannot picture an army of Faerûnians killing a single dragon of Abeir, who are stronger than their Torilian counterparts)
For this particular idea to work for me, I need to device really good explanations that makes sense lorewise.
You may have point in sending gods to Abeir, but I cannot picture them thriving there. Maybe some gods have influence there, but always in limited ways. The same kind of influence a god of Oerth would have on Toril.
Something like making a Weave there would not be abided by the Primordials, simply because it makes no sense. I mean, they gain nothing from that, as they don't need a Weave to cast magic. Why they would allow something that would make their enemies stronger? Even Mystra chose not to do it herself before the Spellplague, when she has some conection with the flux of raw magic in Abeir since always (according to Ed).
This makes me wonder if Lurue is a primordial... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Mar 2019 05:55:47 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 05:58:30
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quote:
some believe that the red knight was in Abeir and not Toril...
Is this something official? Or something you developed for your campaign? If is official, can you point me to the source? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 17:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
some believe that the red knight was in Abeir and not Toril...
Is this something official? Or something you developed for your campaign? If is official, can you point me to the source?
Not official. The concept I have going here is one of uncertainty on the part of the mortals of the world. Basically, my Metahel worship a modified Norse Pantheon, and in it is a goddess Sifya modeled after Sif, goddess of "excellence and skill in battle". Sif was noted also as a "red goddess" (something to do with rowan berries/trees which were special to her, and which are related to real world magical beliefs). So, either the red knight was in Abeir and so was Sifya OR Sifya was posing as the red knight whenever Faerunians called to her OR there actually is some kind of link between Sifya and the Red Knight. The truth behind the matter is what someone wants to make of it.
In somewhat similar ways, I give descriptions of Thoros that could link him to various different Faerunian gods (such as Tempos … a heresy that those who link Sifya to the red knight particularly note... or even deities such as Talos, with whom he shares many traits and who was known absent from Toril). Other gods such as Lathander having a linkage to the God Faerthandir of the Metahel, Helm to Hemdahl, Anachtar to Tyr/Anachtyr, Leira to Alaeralie, Siamorphe to Snoedramorphe, Eldunna to an odd combination of both Eldath and Sune, Magnaer to Magnar the Bear, Valigor the Runtborn Giant to Valigan Thirdborn, Skaragos to Garagos, etc... Many of these gods were gone from Toril entirely during this timeframe, but others were rumored to still be there. There won't be an absolute statement that any were X or Y for the most part, but the idea is that the worshippers saw a similar deity with a very similar name, and so they simply believed that say Faerthandir IS Lathander, that Leira IS Alaeralie. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Mar 2019 17:54:06 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 17:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The grook with that idea is that it makes no sense to me. I mean, most of these gods are minor deities, and most primordials can easily overpower 3 to 5 greater deities fighting alone. None of these gods has a chance to survive a single primordial, even banding together.
You may point to "Gilgeam", but this Gilgeam was just a lucky guy who stole a few artifacts Graz'tz was interested in, and got a demon army. Without this army, Gilgeam would have had a dog's dead somewhere in Shyr. Even with the demon army, Namshita said that Gilgeam's chance of having won that battle wasn't 100%. Gilgeam may have got a dog's dead even with that army. Gilgeam's ass got literally saved by the Sundering.
So, I cannot picture how those gods would have been left to their own devices on Abeir, the world where the primordials reign supreme. I'm pretty sure they are still bitter for their defeat in the Dawn War, and I cannot picture Karshimis (a primordial active since before the Spellplague) not smashing any puny minor god trying to revive another gods on his turf. Or how those gods' worshipers may have survived a dragon attack long enough to create a cult big enough to give a god power to rival Karshimis (I'm reading the Rogue Dragons novels, and seeing all the chaos the dragons of Toril caused, I cannot picture an army of Faerûnians killing a single dragon of Abeir, who are stronger than their Torilian counterparts)
For this particular idea to work for me, I need to device really good explanations that makes sense lorewise.
You may have point in sending gods to Abeir, but I cannot picture them thriving there. Maybe some gods have influence there, but always in limited ways. The same kind of influence a god of Oerth would have on Toril.
Something like making a Weave there would not be abided by the Primordials, simply because it makes no sense. I mean, they gain nothing from that, as they don't need a Weave to cast magic. Why they would allow something that would make their enemies stronger? Even Mystra chose not to do it herself before the Spellplague, when she has some conection with the flux of raw magic in Abeir since always (according to Ed).
This makes me wonder if Lurue is a primordial...
Nothing says the primordials even really awoke to challenge these gods. Also, the primordials USED to be very powerful (and power levels probably varied by individual). They weakened without worshippers and their own mounts (the dragons) took some of them out. They went to sleep, ostensibly to survive on what energies they had stored up. As I was saying before, it may have been that these deities were sucked over, and no great god war got started because it was such a short time (granted 100 years sounds like a lot of time to a mortal, but to a primordial that's asleep, they may not have noticed the gods until they managed to escape). The ruler of Shyr might have been a threat, but if we propose the idea that say he'd have to take on a whole Metahel pantheon consisting of maybe 15 gods or so if he provoked one... he might let sleeping dogs lie. Then again, he may have had enough problems on his hands that he didn't actually delve into a pantheon of gods appearing on the other side of the world.
On the creation of a weave and whether the primordials would allow it, I posit another idea. Mortals have the power of will. Mortals wanted it. Mortals build it. The gods HELP the mortals build it. The gods GUIDE the mortals to build it. But ultimately its the will of the mortals getting it done. Even gods and primordials "must" bend to the will of mortals to some degree, despite how they may act about being all powerful. A lot of things are more bluster and lies to encourage BELIEF in the power of a being (or perhaps one of the best phrases I can relate is one by Ed that says ROUGHLY "Everyone lies, and gods are simply the best at it"... someone else can give the exact quote). It also starts out small and insignificant and localized enough to not draw attention, but through mortal will and effort, expands into new areas. Where it starts out in is "lands under the sway of gods" which may help hide this weave from the primordials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Mar 2019 18:08:46 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 23:40:13
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Well, that depends on your approach to the primordials. For instance, I use the canon approach (well, 4e canon, but it seems 5e lore about primordials remains unchanged). In canon, primordials are physical beings, tied to the physical matter and energy of the Elemental Chaos (and the Elemental Planes, in 5e). Unlike gods, who are conceptual beings tied to the conceptual Outer Planes, and depend, need and change according to the mortal’s beliefs. The primordials are so physical that they are linked to their worlds of origin and usually cannot move across the multiverse, unlike true gods that can spread across the multiverse. Meaning, the primordials of Abeir-Toril are unique to Abeir-Toril, the primordials of Nentir Vale are unique to Nentir Vale, and so on. Unlike gods, is really rare for them to move between crystal spheres. If you want, you can read more about this in “Heroes of the Elemental Chaos” (a 4e sourcebook).
So, even if mortals believe and want a Weave, the primordials of Abeir will not be affected by this belief. The only thing they will care about is whether this benefits them or not. And it does no benefit them to allow their enemies to get stronger by creating a Weave.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not dismissing your idea. But I don’t want another “Faerûnians go to Maztica” either. I mean, when the Amnians went to Maztica, somehow the Faerûnians were superior to the Maztican cuz reasons (to the point that even the Maztican magic systems are weaker when compared to the Faeûnian one…) and thrived in a completely different and hostile ambient cuz reasons. Heck, even the major villains from the novels were Faerûnian, because Maztica had to be weaker even in that regard. This makes no sense for me.
Likewise, that a bunch of Faerûnians go to Abeir, and automatically thrive and overpower the denizens of a totally alien world with different rules to that of Toril, makes no sense either. I mean, Tymanther and Akanûl barely are known outside the Sea of Fallen Stars area, and they had to work really hard for almost 100 years to achieve this. It’s logical to assume that any Faerûnian nation thriving on Abeir would have done it in the same way, and would have accomplished it in a similar amount of time. Add to this the differences of power between primordials and gods, and we have a lot of work to do if we want to avoid giving Abeir the Maztica treatment.
And we don’t know if Mystra III would be happy with this development (according to Ed, she is more picky and strict than the former Mystras—she is fed up of being the Kenny of D&D). After all, there must be a reason why the other two Mystras and Mystril didn’t expanded the Weave into Abeir before, even when they were always aware of the Abeiran flux of raw magic. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 22:18:53
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Here's what I see as the disconnect. I will say gods are not omniscient about everything happening in their planes. I would say the same thing about Primordials. Especially primordials that have gone to sleep. Also, when I say a weave... I'm more or less saying "a bunch of interconnected lines of power... ley lines if you will... magical plumbing... or magical electrical lines". So, in essence, mortals from Toril setup a "weave" in that they learn how to harness raw magical power and adapt it. Within range of some of these things they can work magic in ways that are familiar to them. This might be comparable to a bunch of bees building a nest within the walls of a neighbors house (read Torilian land moved to Abeir) and expecting the neighbor down the street to realize its happening. In comparison to their power, its minute.
Also, as I was describing before, initially it might be that arcane casters are taking weeks to memorize all their spells if they're high level, and they can blow them all in a day. So while its a "weave" its not the equivalent of Mystra's weave (when these spellcasters return to Toril, they'll be amazed at "how easy magic is to access", except for those who had existed on both worlds). Some spellcasters may have even learned to emply "worldfire" in which they learned some means to channel power from Toril while still in Abeir (see Ed's article in dragon for more on worldfire).
The same concept goes for divine casters, in which they're not nearly casting spells willy nilly like they are on Toril using those priestess rules. The gods too that get transferred over, at first they should be amazingly weak and dependent on getting worshippers going to survive. But even an amazingly weak group of gods challenged by a mortal dragon might stand a very good chance of survival. If they're sticking to their "home turf"... i.e. staying where their worshippers are in lands native to Toril, then perhaps its not setting off enough alarm bells that any primordials are immediately rising up from their millenia long sleep to affect them. One of the ideas that I had with the weave development is that the gods of magic are helping the mortals extend this weave, but they're doing it via sacrifice. In other words worshippers create a "node" of some sort that can "tap" into raw magic and "convert" it into the weave... not anything huge... consider it like an adapter turning DC power into AC power. Its great where its available, but not world breaking. The gods then accept this sacrifice and actually go "plant" it in the transferred lands. Slowly they build up a "weave"/"network" that simply makes it easier for casters to access magic again.... not as easily as on Toril, but not so amazingly hard that it takes an entire day for a moderately powerful spellcaster to replenish spells.
By doing this, we can have people in Abeir that weren't overpowered by the existing denizens any more than the people who transferred from Abeir to Toril weren't slaughtered either. Perhaps near the end of the spellplague/arrival of the sundering the primordials of Abeir did begin to wake up more to the Torilians there. Maybe they even found themselves weak from their long sleep. That could work into a decent story as well, but honestly I think it might work best if the primordials awaken slowly and interact via servants. Maybe have one or two that might awaken fully, and maybe a couple gods die. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2019 : 01:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's what I see as the disconnect. I will say gods are not omniscient about everything happening in their planes. I would say the same thing about Primordials. Especially primordials that have gone to sleep.
I agree with this. However, this would apply to places such as Maztica or Halruaa. But places such as Mourktar or Chondath ended up way too close to Shyr, where there is an active primordial since before the Spellplague (Karshimis), for gods there to go doing what they want without being smashed on the spot, and for humans there to be doing their stuff without being enslaved by the Shyran genasi.
And as far as we know, the Mulhorandi and Untherans who survived the trip to Abeir were indeed enslaved by the Shyrans. Which mean that places such as Mourktar where taken over by Karshimis' forces in the end. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Apr 2019 01:48:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2019 : 23:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's what I see as the disconnect. I will say gods are not omniscient about everything happening in their planes. I would say the same thing about Primordials. Especially primordials that have gone to sleep.
I agree with this. However, this would apply to places such as Maztica or Halruaa. But places such as Mourktar or Chondath ended up way too close to Shyr, where there is an active primordial since before the Spellplague (Karshimis), for gods there to go doing what they want without being smashed on the spot, and for humans there to be doing their stuff without being enslaved by the Shyran genasi.
And as far as we know, the Mulhorandi and Untherans who survived the trip to Abeir were indeed enslaved by the Shyrans. Which mean that places such as Mourktar where taken over by Karshimis' forces in the end.
Gotcha, so your concerns aren't necessarily with the far off lands, its with possibly some of the stuff that I'm considering with the Shaar. I can respect that, but let me lay out some things, and lets see if there's a way to improve it.
On that, in Abeir I'm saying that that area the Shaar came to occupy was the Underchasm in Abeir. So, in Abeir, it wasn't occupied land. I'm also having the areas of Chessenta/Threskel/Chondath that I'm listing as "transferred" (that many people thought were simply destroyed) as either
(step 1) falling to Shyr and its people fleeing as refugees to other Chessentan cities such as Cimbar and Soorenar.
(step 2) the forces of Shyr (mortal forces) are sent to take Cimbar and Soorenar, but the gods Leira and Savras (in mortal avatar form possessing some humans, so not at full god power) have infiltrated the Tower Terrible in Soorenar, and they have managed to bring over Velsharoon also in mortal avatar form possessing a human female. Velsharoon taps into the spirit magic of this world (for necromancy is a similar art form) and calls upon local spirits of the dead to protect the people residing in Cimbar and Soorenar. During this time, the forces of Shyr are stretched thin capturing other territories, enslaving Mulhorand and Unther, etc...
(step 3) the people in Cimbar and Soorenar realize they're in danger, and they flee south into the Shaar and eventually come upon the ancient cliffside city of Peleverai built into the side of the landrise. The city has some kind of natural resistance to magical scrying, and there's also a strange local power source similar to the Athora of Thay. Some whisper that this local power source is the source of the collapse of Bhaerynden (aka now the Great Rift) and the creation of the underground river that flow from the rift lake and out the side of the land rise right next to Peleveran. Some whisper as well that this power source is also the source of a little known deity (primordial?) known as Khass who is a "rain god" of the Shaar (from the Complete Barbarian's Handbook). (homebrew, I'm having Khass known as a lot of different names by different Shaaryan tribes, Enku, Enkhassu, Khaasu, and Khanu).
(step 4) after a few decades and working with the enclaves in Maztica, Anchorome, etc... the area in the Shaar actually begins to make more traction.
(step 3) magic stabilizes. The go |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2019 : 18:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On that, in Abeir I'm saying that that area the Shaar came to occupy was the Underchasm in Abeir. So, in Abeir, it wasn't occupied land. I'm also having the areas of Chessenta/Threskel/Chondath that I'm listing as "transferred" (that many people thought were simply destroyed)
Because originally most of those places were destroyed. That was their intent in 4e. AFAIK, of those places you mention, the only one that was stated in 4e canon that was transferred/exchanged to Abeir was Chondath, that was exchanged with Akanûl. Then, they retconed that all those places were "transferred" for the Sundering's plot.
As for the Underchasm, we'd be ignoring a lot of canon there... but if we going by this idea, then you'd have to take into account this: the Shaar territories that were sent to Abeir may not have returned to Toril during the Sundering, as the Underchasm was filled by Grumbar, not exchanged back (like Unther, for instance). You may either chose to ignore the novels or device something around that.
As for your solutions, I like some of them, but I feel that those nations thrived in a land that doens't allow this kind of success. I mean, I know Tymanther (for instance) thrived after it was throw into Toril, but:
1. Toril is a more friendlier world than Abeir. People is more open to trade, and there aren't tyrants trying to conquer the world on a regular basis (and the few that do exist are foiled by good nations such as Cormyr—nations that do not exist in Abeir: all that world is divided between dragon overlords and a few oppresive primordials)
2. The whole of Toril hasn't changed because of Tymanther. Heck, not even Faerûn has changed in any meaningful way (culturally, magically, etc.) because there is a nation of dragonborn out there. Tymanther is all but unknown in lands beyond its inmediate vicinity, and even within its home region is strungling to survive (because Unther).
The same applies to Laerakond, Akanûl, etc... (though, those places have it easy, as they don't have an enemy bent in exterminating them).
Why, then, the Faerûnians in Abeir should fare better in a land that is dozens of times more lethal and oppresive than Toril? For all we know, even powerful Halruaa had a hard time while on Abeir. This should be our model for the fate of the other nations there, to be faithful to the setting's flavor.
I feel that if we are going to continue this, we should open another topic. This one is for ideas about Laerakond. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Apr 2019 18:37:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2019 : 20:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On that, in Abeir I'm saying that that area the Shaar came to occupy was the Underchasm in Abeir. So, in Abeir, it wasn't occupied land. I'm also having the areas of Chessenta/Threskel/Chondath that I'm listing as "transferred" (that many people thought were simply destroyed)
Because originally most of those places were destroyed. That was their intent in 4e. AFAIK, of those places you mention, the only one that was stated in 4e canon that was transferred/exchanged to Abeir was Chondath, that was exchanged with Akanûl. Then, they retconed that all those places were "transferred" for the Sundering's plot.
As for the Underchasm, we'd be ignoring a lot of canon there... but if we going by this idea, then you'd have to take into account this: the Shaar territories that were sent to Abeir may not have returned to Toril during the Sundering, as the Underchasm was filled by Grumbar, not exchanged back (like Unther, for instance). You may either chose to ignore the novels or device something around that.
As for your solutions, I like some of them, but I feel that those nations thrived in a land that doens't allow this kind of success. I mean, I know Tymanther (for instance) thrived after it was throw into Toril, but:
1. Toril is a more friendlier world than Abeir. People is more open to trade, and there aren't tyrants trying to conquer the world on a regular basis (and the few that do exist are foiled by good nations such as Cormyr—nations that do not exist in Abeir: all that world is divided between dragon overlords and a few oppresive primordials)
2. The whole of Toril hasn't changed because of Tymanther. Heck, not even Faerûn has changed in any meaningful way (culturally, magically, etc.) because there is a nation of dragonborn out there. Tymanther is all but unknown in lands beyond its inmediate vicinity, and even within its home region is strungling to survive (because Unther).
The same applies to Laerakond, Akanûl, etc... (though, those places have it easy, as they don't have an enemy bent in exterminating them).
Why, then, the Faerûnians in Abeir should fare better in a land that is dozens of times more lethal and oppresive than Toril? For all we know, even powerful Halruaa had a hard time while on Abeir. This should be our model for the fate of the other nations there, to be faithful to the setting's flavor.
I feel that if we are going to continue this, we should open another topic. This one is for ideas about Laerakond.
Sounds good, and I've been considering reducing the footprint of my red wizards in the Shaar severely to occupy mostly the areas around the cliffside city of Peleveran and the edges of the landrise. Other areas may have Shaaryans or escaped Untherites/Chessentans/Mulhorandi etc.. in them. I'm thinking as well that I like the idea of having the red wizards having a focus on earth, air, and water based magic in the Shaar as well, such that maybe they learn a little more about earthmotes, and perhaps the edges of the landrise are dotted with such. Gotta go can some apple butter, but when I get back, I'd love to open a new topic and discuss options. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Case for Laerakond Remaining in 1490s DR
