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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 17:29:19
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I like what the Pathfinder rules do with Create Undead, allowing the creation of more types than the basic spell as written. Realmslore has some support for Create Undead being used in this way, i.e. with Juju Zombies being created at the 16th CL according to Unapproachable East.
Is there any compelling lore or balance reason that powerful necromancers should not be able to create Greater Shadows, Dread Wraiths or Ghosts with Create Greater Undead?
The 'Greater Shadow' is CR 7 and has 9 HD. That makes it the same CR as the Spectre, but with two more HD. It's clearly inferior to the Devourer in CR and HD. From a game balance standpoint, it seems like it should be possible for necromancers to create them at some point between 18th and 20th level. I might propose 19th level, as Devourers become available at 20th level.
Dread Wraiths are the same CR as Devourers, CR 11, but they have 4 more HD. It seems that at 21st or 22nd CL, Create Greater Undead ought to be able to create Dread Wraiths.
Ghosts are more of an oddity, but as Juju Zombies with class levels can be created with Create Undead, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason why Ghosts with class levels ought not to be possible with Create Greater Undead.
So, what would the scribes think of the following progression for Create Greater Undead?
Caster Level --- Undead Created
15th or lower -- Shadow
15th+ ---------- Allip (requires ability to cast Insanity)
16th+ ---------- Wraith
18th+ ---------- Spectre
18th+ ---------- Totenmaske (cleric only, requires corpse of selfish person)
19th+ ---------- Greater Shadow (requires ability to cast Shadow Walk)
19th+ ---------- Bonestorm
19th+ ---------- Witchfire (requires corpse of a hag)
20th+ ---------- Devourer (special requirements)
20th+ ---------- Bodak (must be created in Abyss)
21st+ ---------- Banshee (requires corpse of elven female and ability to cast Fear and Wail of the Banshee)
22nd+ ---------- Dread Wraith (requires ability to cast Energy Drain)
24th+ ---------- Ghost (requires the ability to cast Bestow Curse, Etherealness and Magic Jar)
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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Jul 2018 15:31:32
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 00:35:12
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| careful with ghosts, as they reform a few days after dying. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 02:18:50
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A quick rule of thumb is that Create Undead creates corporeal, non-extraplanar undead creature whose CR does not exceed your caster level -10, while Create Greater Undead creates any incorporeal or extraplanar undead creature whose CR does not exceed your caster level -9.
It's a decent way to expand a necromancer's list of options that scales with the necromancer's caster level.
Ghosts aren't really that hard to handle. I'd rule it the requirements as a combination of create greater undead and bestow curse. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 25 Jul 2018 03:39:42 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 11:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
A quick rule of thumb is that Create Undead creates corporeal, non-extraplanar undead creature whose CR does not exceed your caster level -10, while Create Greater Undead creates any incorporeal or extraplanar undead creature whose CR does not exceed your caster level -9.
That seems to hold for the D&D progression of Create Undead. It seems that Create Greater Undead actually makes lower CR creatures compared to the Caster Level, being ca -12 or -11 until the 20th level, when the Devourer becomes available and is the highest CR creature available, by far, at -9.
I'm actually in favour of requiring corpses that died in special circumstances for all flavourful undead, so I'd require Devourers to be created from either a powerful mortal with supernatural abilities or the remains of demons, devils or fiends, and I'd require that the Create Greater Undead be cast on the Astral or Ethereal plane to get one (or using Astral Projection, Etherealness or Gate spell).
But, then, I require mohrgs to be created from the corpses of unrepentant serial killers. Basically, if you want a flavourful and/or skilled undead, get a corpse of someone with the abilities you want or a metaphysical reason to rise as the undead type you want.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
It's a decent way to expand a necromancer's list of options that scales with the necromancer's caster level.
I am in favour of more options, but I'd like to avoid the errors of D&D rules, where there are frequently exploits that are illogical, but legal, and the clearly best way of using a given spell.
For example, at 16th level, a spellcaster can cast Create Undead to create a Juju Zombie, but the only guideline for how powerful it can be is that the spellcaster must have a Caster Level equal to or higher than the hit dice or class level of the creature made into a Juju Zombie.
I definitely want to encourage using the corpses of powerful creatures and getting better undead, but for any 16th level caster that has the option, the choice between a CR 5 Mummy and a CR 18 Juju Zombie with 16 class levels is pretty much a no brainer. And while getting these powerful corpses might be some limitation, that doesn't really hold with PCs, who by their very nature face lots of foes with HD or class levels near their own caster level.
So, if I were running a D&D game, I'd limit Create Undead to creating Juju Zombies with half the class levels of the CL of the spellcaster. That's still clearly superior to creating undead from the corpses of people without class levels, but in my GURPS game, it takes mastery of necromantic lore and perfect preparation of the corpse to animate someone of exceptional abilities with anything close to their skills in life.
Juju Zombies, especially, do not have their full memories and are much duller mentally than living people, so it's logical that even if the living person was world class at something, the undead abomination created from them will not retain the full measure of their creativity, flair and passion. See Zaknafein as a Zin-carla revenant in Exile for Realmslore support for the idea that without the full memories of their life and their personality, undead will not be able to perform at the peak of the skills of the living person, not even in something physical as swordsmanship.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Ghosts aren't really that hard to handle. I'd rule it the requirements as a combination of create greater undead and bestow curse.
sleyvas' point that Ghosts reform is well taken. Can Create Undead or Create Greater Undead create any other forms of undead that have the ability to arise again when destroyed?
Edit: Considering it, as long as the Ghost reforms at a place that has importance to the ghost, is free willed when he does so and is likely to hunger for vengeance against the necromancer who created him, I don't think that the ability of Ghosts to reform should preclude them being made with Create Greater Undead. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Jul 2018 14:22:35 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 15:59:21
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| Greater Shadows are no more intelligent, ambitious or individual than normal Shadows, i.e. a barely sentient Int 6. Has there been any mention in Realmslore of an undead Shadow that was more of a character than this, for one reason or another, e.g. he retained some snatches of memory and personality or because he had fed on literally thousands of mortals in his unlife? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 22:44:39
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| When it comes to ghosts, I'd recommend an entirely different mechanic in some form. It might still be a spell mind you, but just might have some kind of other requirements that I'm not even thinking through. Basically, just as there is no "create a lich with create undead". Certain undead should just have their own methods. Death Knights, liches, ghosts, skeleton warriors, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 01:01:56
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There was an article on the old wizards site that had a bard who was turned into a lich by Szass Tam.
I don't really have an issue with creating death knights or most forms of greater undead via traditional animation spells. I'd just restrict the actual knowledge of how to create such creatures behind quests and sages, with some help from your friendly neighbourhood temple of Velsharoon. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 02:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
When it comes to ghosts, I'd recommend an entirely different mechanic in some form. It might still be a spell mind you, but just might have some kind of other requirements that I'm not even thinking through. Basically, just as there is no "create a lich with create undead". Certain undead should just have their own methods. Death Knights, liches, ghosts, skeleton warriors, etc...
Agreed, for Death Knights, liches and Skeleton Warriors.
For Watchghosts, Realmslore states that they can be created with an 8th level spell available to both priests and wizards. That certainly sounds like Create Greater Undead or a variation.
As for other kinds of Ghosts, I'm torn. On one hand, I want to make it flavourful and interesting to create any kind of powerful undead. On the other, Create Greater Undead already allows Devourers, which are more powerful and exotic than the ghost of anyone but an extremely powerful character.
That being said, I don't really want Gula to be able to create one Ghost per night (she has a class ability to cast it at CL 24th 1/day). She has one Ghost in her service, which suggests that she doesn't have the ability to create them easily. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 02:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There was an article on the old wizards site that had a bard who was turned into a lich by Szass Tam.
I don't really have an issue with creating death knights or most forms of greater undead via traditional animation spells. I'd just restrict the actual knowledge of how to create such creatures behind quests and sages, with some help from your friendly neighbourhood temple of Velsharoon.
My main concern is that I don't want undead with established Realmslore backgrounds and motivations to be created from the corpse of a random drunk who died of cirrhosis.
Death Knights need to be fallen knights with a reason for their cursed state that goes beyond 'A high-level caster needed a bodyguard'. Mohrgs should be created from unrepentant mass murderers, not just any corpse that a necromancer of 18th level can scrounge up.
And Devourers really should be created from wizards who witnessed Things Man Was Not Meant to Know on the Outer Planes, that or the remains of evil outsiders. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There was an article on the old wizards site that had a bard who was turned into a lich by Szass Tam.
I don't really have an issue with creating death knights or most forms of greater undead via traditional animation spells. I'd just restrict the actual knowledge of how to create such creatures behind quests and sages, with some help from your friendly neighbourhood temple of Velsharoon.
My main concern is that I don't want undead with established Realmslore backgrounds and motivations to be created from the corpse of a random drunk who died of cirrhosis.
Death Knights need to be fallen knights with a reason for their cursed state that goes beyond 'A high-level caster needed a bodyguard'. Mohrgs should be created from unrepentant mass murderers, not just any corpse that a necromancer of 18th level can scrounge up.
And Devourers really should be created from wizards who witnessed Things Man Was Not Meant to Know on the Outer Planes, that or the remains of evil outsiders.
Yeah, that's my focus too. Things that have established "they had to be turned" or "they had to do the ritual of endless night". There's some like death knight that specifically links the secret to a ritual by X demon lord. Ghosts are special and require something that they need to finish or avenge, etc... If it becomes "hey, I can just whip all these great storyline undead up" it loses a lot of the appeal of them. In essence, some of these beings... their powers aren't all that special, its their story that makes them special.
As to Tam turning someone else into a lich, I would probably turn that into a story somehow. For instance, maybe he felt he'd designed a variation of the ritual that would work for bards, but that he needed a guinea pig. If he could show that he could figure out how to make others perform the ritual of endless magic using magical theories that he himself cannot cast, it would show him to be a most intellectually superior caster. Or maybe he couldn't figure out what niggling bits would need to be changed to make it work for a bard, but he had the basis since they're both arcane magics. So, he presented the basis of the ritual to the bard, and maybe he taunted him and said "do you think you could figure this out?". The haughty bard didn't realize the trap being laid, for Tam somehow worded the question such that he placed a geas upon the bard to figure out and perform the ritual AND not cast any type of anti-magic/curse removal spells. So, the bard then gets trapped away, unable to remove the geas himself, so its either die or become a lich. When the bard successfully becomes a lich, Tam takes all the credit and uses it to make the bards of Thay leery of crossing him.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:24:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, that's my focus too. Things that have established "they had to be turned" or "they had to do the ritual of endless night". There's some like death knight that specifically links the secret to a ritual by X demon lord. Ghosts are special and require something that they need to finish or avenge, etc... If it becomes "hey, I can just whip all these great storyline undead up" it loses a lot of the appeal of them. In essence, some of these beings... their powers aren't all that special, its their story that makes them special.
Agreed.
That being said, I think that being a necromancer is to a great extent the art and science of identifying and manipulating the factors that make angry ghosts, restless dead or revenants. A necromancer should be able to predict that a given person has what it takes to become a given type of undead and set in motion a course of events that results in it.
Casting Create Greater Undead is not the only step to create interesting undead, but it might be the last step. Sort of the necromancer giving the forces of life and death a push, to ensure that a person of a certain type, who died in certain circumstances, rises as the right sort of undead.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to Tam turning someone else into a lich, I would probably turn that into a story somehow. For instance, maybe he felt he'd designed a variation of the ritual that would work for bards, but that he needed a guinea pig. If he could show that he could figure out how to make others perform the ritual of endless magic using magical theories that he himself cannot cast, it would show him to be a most intellectually superior caster. Or maybe he couldn't figure out what niggling bits would need to be changed to make it work for a bard, but he had the basis since they're both arcane magics. So, he presented the basis of the ritual to the bard, and maybe he taunted him and said "do you think you could figure this out?". The haughty bard didn't realize the trap being laid, for Tam somehow worded the question such that he placed a geas upon the bard to figure out and perform the ritual AND not cast any type of anti-magic/curse removal spells. So, the bard then gets trapped away, unable to remove the geas himself, so its either die or become a lich. When the bard successfully becomes a lich, Tam takes all the credit and uses it to make the bards of Thay leery of crossing him.
Realmslore is pretty clear that people other than wizards can be turned into liches and that the process can be involuntary. No one objected to that in this thread.
It's just that it's not a single spell, it's a whole process. |
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Create Greater Undead - More Options
