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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker

USA
40 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  21:43:23  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So this came up in a different topic but I have been looking for a source or group of sources that go into, more or less the In-universe mechanics of magic. All the psudo-science tech babble in Star Trek has always amused me and I try to bring that quality to mages in my Realms, but have had to resorting to making up stuff on the fly.

Was wondering if you sages had any deep lore on the topic or if I'm resigned to writing a fantasy scientific paper on Bigsby's Five Laws of Evocation.

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2935 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  21:57:43  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been looking for something similar too, but I didn't find any, so I wrote one for my own world. Nothing to do with how FR or D&D magic works, though.

It would be nice if there was something like that I missed.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jul 2018 21:58:08
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7140 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  22:54:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be amusing to see a "lesson plan" that revolved around the "five basic types of evocative energies". However, I'd prefer going back to the old days when sonic damage was always low damage BUT it was fairly hard to block, fire was more deadly but there were numerous things that reduced or blocked it, etc... It may be less balanced, but it sure as hell makes a lot more sense. Something would have to be seriously loud to actually damage me as much as a fireball.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1655 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  23:47:43  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So "in depth" or "treknobable"?

For randumz, look at generators on chaoticshiny.com

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  00:44:18  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Check out Ray E Feist. Nakor talks about the Stuff of Magic.

or

Just look up the Codex of Wodar Hospur.

There are Wizards, there is Magick and then there is Thay.

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 13 Jul 2018 00:51:36
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  00:59:05  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or you could hire a Draxkir to hunt down the truth.

There are Wizards, there is Magick and then there is Thay.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  02:56:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always favored the idea that magic is just another source of energy, and casters are just tapping into that source of energy. It's kinda like the Force, in Star Wars: it's there, all around, but you've got to have an affinity and/or the training for it to be able to tap that energy.

And magic does have strict rules and laws that it adheres to... These are not always the laws of physics, though, and can appear to violate the laws of physics. The laws of magic are in some ways more complex than physical laws, which is part of why even most of its practitioners don't understand it.

Like it's explained in the Dresdenverse, the words and gestures and components and all that are almost immaterial to the casting of magic -- they're just a construct that allows the caster to wield magic. It's not saying "abra cadabra!" that makes the bunny appear in the hat, for example -- the words are meaningless. It's the caster's association of the words with the effect that's important -- the words (and the other components) are his focus, his way of envisioning grasping the energy and forcing it towards a particular goal.

At least, that's my spin on it all.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6618 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  07:42:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lyndon Hardy's novels (Master of the Five Magics, Secret of the Sixth Magic, and Riddle of the Seven Realms) did a fine job of defining systemized "rules of magic". Early fantasy genre, lacking today's "high fantasy" subtleties and sophistications (and assumptions), so it follows some familiar-seeming themes and very predictable tropes ... but also worth reading.

I've noticed D&D magic keeps shifting more and more towards "standardization". More like a science: known rules, known properties, known effects, things can be isolated and observed and reproduced and predicted.

While older-edition (A)D&D magic started off more "exotic" and "mysterious". More like an art: each practitioner of the craft had to discover unique ways to accomplish the same things, each spell always had some chance of generating never-before-seen results.

[/Ayrik]
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

746 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  07:47:29  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Lyndon Hardy's novels (Master of the Five Magics, Secret of the Sixth Magic, and Riddle of the Seven Realms) did a fine job of defining systemized "rules of magic". Early fantasy genre, lacking today's "high fantasy" subtleties and sophistications (and assumptions), so it follows some familiar-seeming themes and very predictable tropes ... but also worth reading.

I've noticed D&D magic keeps shifting more and more towards "standardization". More like a science: known rules, known properties, known effects, things can be isolated and observed and reproduced and predicted.

While older-edition (A)D&D magic started off more "exotic" and "mysterious". More like an art: each practitioner of the craft had to discover unique ways to accomplish the same things, each spell always had some chance of generating never-before-seen results.



That's pretty accurate. Metamagic seems more like the result of study, research, experimentation and testing rather than something artistic. I'd wager that Charisma-based spellcasters see it differently, but Int-based casters have always stuck me as the type to research and discover new spells and magical equipment.
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  22:20:59  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Lyndon Hardy's novels (Master of the Five Magics, Secret of the Sixth Magic, and Riddle of the Seven Realms) did a fine job of defining systemized "rules of magic". Early fantasy genre, lacking today's "high fantasy" subtleties and sophistications (and assumptions), so it follows some familiar-seeming themes and very predictable tropes ... but also worth reading.

I've noticed D&D magic keeps shifting more and more towards "standardization". More like a science: known rules, known properties, known effects, things can be isolated and observed and reproduced and predicted.

While older-edition (A)D&D magic started off more "exotic" and "mysterious". More like an art: each practitioner of the craft had to discover unique ways to accomplish the same things, each spell always had some chance of generating never-before-seen results.



That's pretty accurate. Metamagic seems more like the result of study, research, experimentation and testing rather than something artistic. I'd wager that Charisma-based spellcasters see it differently, but Int-based casters have always stuck me as the type to research and discover new spells and magical equipment.



Perhaps it is strange or counter-intuitive, but my experience has been much the opposite (at least practice, if not in theory)... All of the mechanical rules of the D&D game have progressed like that (both Combat & Spellcasting) towards "standardization"... However, I've found that the "In-game" perspective or presentation is much more like the 1e/2e style... At least since 5e was released (If we're talking 3e or 4e, I totally agree that those were magi-tech editions).

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  23:10:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is an explanation on how magic work in the Realms in "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms", but I don't think that is what you are looking for...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker

USA
40 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  03:45:50  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is going to be fairly long, couldn't check on this busy weekend!

@Sleyvas You know that would be an interesting subject to at to the queue the specific energies of evocation. The paper I spoke of (I ended up writing it anyway ) was actually based around what evocation can and cant do as it is the manipulation of magic to create or harness other types of energy. It went into detail comparing the difference between spells for each law and why it was that you couldn't have the best of every world in one spell.

@TBeholder So I would like to know if there was a Realms specific breakdown of the standard practices of wizards and wizard academies in teaching apprentices. The only real comparison to Star Trek is that I would like it to be based off the "Real" laws of magic as they do with their babble, but I cant just go look at a academic paper myself. More to the point I specifically want to challenge those who play spellcasters in my game to try and know about the lore of magic instead of saying "I cast X" and not really actually knowing or caring what school that is from or the implications of variations to those spells.

@Thraskir Skimper I will on all counts

@Wooly Rupert I personally have a very similar opinion to how magic functions in setting as mechanics and lore support this.
quote:
magic does have strict rules and laws that it adheres to... These are not always the laws of physics, though, and can appear to violate the laws of physics. The laws of magic are in some ways more complex than physical laws, which is part of why even most of its practitioners don't understand it.

I was hoping for some basic rules in this vein actually something along the lines of Newton's 3 Laws of Motion etc. Even if they aren't written out anywhere or intoned from the book of Canon, that's ok so long as there isn't deep lore specifically barring me from creating them myself.

@Ayrik I will definitely look into it. I feel the Realms can support really any variation to practice of magic so I tend to assume they all exist in there to some extent its just forgotten lore (I don't know it )

@Lordofbones I actually really enjoy the scientific style due to me being a engineer but I definitely have the more artistic or "feeling" style of wizard in my Realms. I have actually gone all around trying to either rationalizing what is there or slipping in cultural magic styles from the real world in there as well so that not every magic caster is a Assistant-professor preaching about the laws and rules of magic. I also tend to favor character alignment having a pretty big influence on what style they gravitate to. I have actually already made a pretty big distinction at my table between Cha based casters, its honestly a my own in house faction war as the players who have taken to my scientific version of magic have and those who play cha based spellcasters throw shoes at each other from across the table as their characters get into heated debates lol.

@Zeromaru X I will look into it anyway. Even if it isn't specifics I can use in game it is probably exactly what I am looking for as a DM. Cheers!


Phew...
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3166 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  04:12:38  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I had written something up from a character I made a long, long time ago, I'll try to find it. It was a wizard who spent a prolonged period of time of Mechanus and believed that he unlocked the "rules" of magic.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3166 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  04:29:15  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found it, but not as "in-depth" as I thought it was:

The Metareality Hypothesis, also known as Metareality Philosophy, is the belief that reality is governed by a specific set of laws. If these laws can be discovered, properly observed, and some kind of pattern established, one can divine the future unerringly. Those who believe in, and research the subject rely heavily on mathematical formulas, magical theories, physical laws, and astronomy.

Who first theorized of the Metareality Hypothesis is unknown. It is believed that the concept was developed somewhere in a place of higher learning on either Sigil, or on the plane of Mechanus. Marrying the two, it is widely believed that the principle was first theorized on by members of the Fraternity of Order on Sigil, who eventually founded the Fortress of Discipled Enlightenment on Mechanus to better study and test the hypothesis. A less common belief is that the Fraternity of Order did not discover the concept their selves, but rather, learned of and adopted the idea from either Formians or Modron already on Mechanus.

The first recorded mentions of the Metareality Hypothesis being brought back into Realmspace was in –5,193. One hundred years earlier, Sundryl Starmantle, a Moon Elf, and his companion, Schnippa Loopmottin Stumbleduck, a Lantanese Gnome, traveled to Mechanus, to observe and document the exotic clockwork creatures residing on the plane, to better create their own clockwork items on Lantan. While on the plane, the two came across the Fortress of Discipled Enlightenment, and eventually became members of the Fraternity of Order. While Schnippa Loopmottin Stumbleduck never returned to Faerūn, Sundryl did. When he came back, was remarkably changed, and took residence in his homeland of Uvaeren.

Sundryl’s home, known as the Clockwork Tower, was quite unlike any other in the Elven nation. Sundryl had the tower designed using precise mathematic formulas and procedures, which stood in great contrast to the following architecture that most other Elves use. It was powered by technomagical and clockwork devices, included all sorts of machines, and sported a massive telescope at it’s top. Using careful research, planning, and mapping, Sundryl had the tower built on what he believed was a Torillian leyline, being that the tower stood directly in the path of two Earth Nodes deep below the ground.

It is not known how much research Sundryl came to possess before disappearing, or how close he came to proving the Metareality Hypothesis valid or not. It is said by eyewitnesses, however, that he predicted the destruction of Uvaeren by a celestial body in the sky, and shunted his tower and all of his research out of the doomed nation, before the meteor struck.

Since these days long ago, the Metareality Hypothesis has gone largely ignored by Faerūnian scholars and philosophers. The archives and tomes in Candlekeep, known as the greatest library on Faerūn, contain few mentions of this abstract philosophy. It has very few adherents on Abeir-Toril. Most who believe in the Metareality Hypothesis either hail from someplace other than Realmspace, and have come to live in the Crystal Sphere, or have spent considerable time on a Plane or Crystal Sphere other than Realmspace.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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