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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 18:59:59
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Except that Ed explained that Eilistraee actually spared her brother when he attempted to assassinate her, and only borrowed his portfolio for a while (on a side note, Malyk couldn't have picked up on rebellion anyway, because Eilistraee did at that time. And Malyk wasn't even there to do that at that time. Currently, he seems to have separated by Talos, but the rearrangement in portfolios was supposedly handled by Ao--see Myrkul and Kelemvor as an example).
Second, a price should be paid in portfolios, but portfolios are not always related to the goal. In fact, checking things out, the point above doesn't stand anyway, because Vhaeraun never held the portfolio of rebellion, so his change remains random (btw, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are two examples that I mention when people say that gods can only act in regard to their portfolios). Even more, because Vhaeraun was the *only* one to receive such a change. I mean, combining SCAG and MToF Eilistraee even gained a massive portfolio (freedom), while the others remained more or less themselves? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jun 2018 19:17:47 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 19:02:11
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Do you want my (jaded) take on the reason for that change? In the latest novel, Drizzt was stated to be the beacon of hope for all drow males (even though he *never* even gave a flying about the drow and wholly spurned his people). Guess who would get in the way? Yeah, Vhaeraun.
Next thing you know, WotC will have Eilistraee working for Lolth by taking to her all the drow who choose a different path only to send their souls to her mother (because that's more or less the extent of how they changed Vhaeraun). Her good heart was a ruse all along!!!1!!! |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jun 2018 19:24:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 20:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Except that Ed explained that Eilistraee actually spared her brother when he attempted to assassinate her, and only borrowed his portfolio for a while (on a side note, Malyk couldn't have picked up on rebellion anyway, because Eilistraee did at that time. And Malyk wasn't even there to do that at that time. Currently, he seems to have separated by Talos, but the rearrangement in portfolios was supposedly handled by Ao--see Myrkul and Kelemvor as an example).
Second, a price should be paid in portfolios, but portfolios are not always related to the goal. In fact, checking things out, the point above doesn't stand anyway, because Vhaeraun never held the portfolio of rebellion, so his change remains random (btw, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are two examples that I mention when people say that gods can only act in regard to their portfolios). Even more, because Vhaeraun was the *only* one to receive such a change. I mean, combining SCAG and MToF Eilistraee even gained a massive portfolio (freedom), while the others remained more or less themselves?
Oh, I agree. I like Ed's version much better, I am just saying, if they were going to change things, it would have made more sense to do it that way, rather than rewriting the whole thing. And the rebellion refers to his rebellion against Lolth, not having it in his portfolio. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 20:35:33
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| ^Yup, he never had rebellion, so even potentially losing power with his rebirth would not change his mindset. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 21:23:50
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Given that this is the "Tome of Foes", I get the gith and blood wars chapters. I even get the elf and dwarf chapters (for dark elves, duergar, and this spin on Shadar-Kai). BTW, I think I'll also have the "Elle Folk" or those "shadow elves" aka the Arak of Ravenloft, having some ties to the Raven Queeen as well. Anyway, why the chapter on halflings and gnomes? I'm not upset, but if they were looking to do a book on the gods, I would have rathered more of a religion book in the tone of "Demihuman Deities" combined with "Monster Mythology".
BTW, I was intrigued with the story of Laduguer getting his divinity from Asmodeus taking a divine spark from Abbathor. While that's not realms canon, I don't think we actually have a history for Laduguer's rise, and it could well be true that he rose as a god there or somewhere else, and the mind flayers of that community came to Toril or shared their information with the elder brain on Toril and they performed similar experiments. However, what I find intriguing about it is why would Asmodeus have access to a spark of divinity from Abbathor?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 15:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
^Yup, he never had rebellion, so even potentially losing power with his rebirth would not change his mindset.
Sorry, Irennan & CorellonsDevout... I wasn't trying to say that "Drow Rebellion" was an official portfolio element of Vhaeraun that got passed to Malyk, I was trying to say that it seems like they're pushing Malyk (and his faithful) as the "Voice" of Drow Rebels... and I didn't realize Ed clarified that Eilistraee hadn't killed Vhaeraun, so I'll go back to the drawing board on it.
But, because Cyric is an eternal optimist, I am still determined to make Lemonade out of the Mordenkainen's Lore! |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 15:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, I was intrigued with the story of Laduguer getting his divinity from Asmodeus taking a divine spark from Abbathor. While that's not realms canon, I don't think we actually have a history for Laduguer's rise, and it could well be true that he rose as a god there or somewhere else, and the mind flayers of that community came to Toril or shared their information with the elder brain on Toril and they performed similar experiments. However, what I find intriguing about it is why would Asmodeus have access to a spark of divinity from Abbathor?
Because it sounds cool.
Well, it probably does to the designers. I think 'because Asmodeus/Shar/Lolth/Sir Wigglebottom the Third did it' is a poor excuse for storytelling. Maybe it's what the dwarves tell themselves, rather than admit that Laduguer rose to prominence on his own merits. Abbathor, after all, is their god, while Laddy is the the god of their surly cousins who can't possibly be as powerful as ol' Clangeddin, so he had to have gained that power through treacherous non-dwarven means.
Laduguer is justifiably rather surly about the whole ordeal, and baatezu are rather careful not to linger too long in Hammergrim, or in Thuldanin in general. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 12 Jun 2018 15:51:56 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 15:50:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
^Yup, he never had rebellion, so even potentially losing power with his rebirth would not change his mindset.
Sorry, Irennan & CorellonsDevout... I wasn't trying to say that "Drow Rebellion" was an official portfolio element of Vhaeraun that got passed to Malyk, I was trying to say that it seems like they're pushing Malyk (and his faithful) as the "Voice" of Drow Rebels... and I didn't realize Ed clarified that Eilistraee hadn't killed Vhaeraun, so I'll go back to the drawing board on it.
But, because Cyric is an eternal optimist, I am still determined to make Lemonade out of the Mordenkainen's Lore!
Nothing to be sorry about. My apologies if it sounded like I was angry, or offended, or something. I mean, I was, but not because of your attempts at getting something good from the book, simply because of what WotC did to Vhaeraun.
Constructive input and discussion are always appreciated, even though when an official source warps a character to this degree, I'll very likely ignore the new source anyway. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jun 2018 15:58:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 19:03:19
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I do find it interesting that they're pushing Malyk as if he's existed for a while, considering he's a relative newcomer who was then consumed by Talos. My understanding was that he was elevated after the ToT, and by 1372 or thereabouts he was already consumed.
I'm not upset about this, because I consider him another feather in Mystra's hat that I can use, since I've been building up this pool of gods that I feel helped in some way bring Mystra back and now are "secondary" servants to her (unless they're primary servants like Azuth and Savras). So, at present, with returned gods as possibilities, I'm looking at Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Malyk, Deneir, Kereska the Wonderbringer, the Red Knight (as a goddess of spell strategy), Finder.... and I could possibly include other racial gods like Eilistraee, Corellon, and possibly gods from other pantheons such as Isis and Thoth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 19:15:06
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Malyk had basically become an aspect of Talos, but his worship did indeed continue. GIven how Amaunator and Lathander have separated after the Sundering, or how the elven "aspects" (which *never* made any sense whatsoever) have returned to being their former selves, it's likely that Malyk too separated (similarly to how the Talos=Gruumsh 4e nonsense has also ended).
As for racial gods as Mystra's helpers, Eilistraee does indeed fit. It is explicitly stated that she is one of the deities with whom Mystra's sharing the Weave as of now. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jun 2018 19:15:41 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 19:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do find it interesting that they're pushing Malyk as if he's existed for a while, considering he's a relative newcomer who was then consumed by Talos. My understanding was that he was elevated after the ToT, and by 1372 or thereabouts he was already consumed.
I'm not upset about this, because I consider him another feather in Mystra's hat that I can use, since I've been building up this pool of gods that I feel helped in some way bring Mystra back and now are "secondary" servants to her (unless they're primary servants like Azuth and Savras). So, at present, with returned gods as possibilities, I'm looking at Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Malyk, Deneir, Kereska the Wonderbringer, the Red Knight (as a goddess of spell strategy), Finder.... and I could possibly include other racial gods like Eilistraee, Corellon, and possibly gods from other pantheons such as Isis and Thoth.
I am going to remain optimistic and propose that the elements of Vhaeraun's presentation that are such a clear 180-degree departure from everything we know, are a deliberate & very temporary change in strategy by Vhaeraun... which will finally bring about Lolth's destruction & Vhaeraun's ascension to become the Shadow King of the Dark Seldarine.
Ed's Lore is Law. So, I'm thinking that the push of Malyk is related to Vhaeraun now suddenly cultivating an image of a silent/obedient cultural protector... If Vhaeraun is going to truly succeed in overthrowing Lolth & seizing control of the Drow, he should be in a position to be perceived as a protector, rightful heir, and unifying force, instead of a usurpur or perpetrator of a coup... leave that role to Malyk.
It stands to reason that Vhaeraun would be not only be silently allied with Eilistraee, but with Malyk as well... Vhaeraun is identified with Shadow Magic, just as Malyk is identified with Wild Magic... And since both are deities that are historically identified with Rebellion, a secret alliance between the two sounds like a real possibility. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Malyk had basically become an aspect of Talos, but his worship did indeed continue. GIven how Amaunator and Lathander have separated after the Sundering, or how the elven "aspects" (which *never* made any sense whatsoever) have returned to being their former selves, it's likely that Malyk too separated (similarly to how the Talos=Gruumsh 4e nonsense has also ended).
As for racial gods as Mystra's helpers, Eilistraee does indeed fit. It is explicitly stated that she is one of the deities with whom Mystra's sharing the Weave as of now.
Yeah, my view of these servant gods of magic is one of helping wedge up Mystra while she's weak... giving her "assistance" in ways that pertain to their own portfolios. In return, I'd imagine these gods are going to expect a little more control in those areas as well, or possibly offerings of shrines in her churches, etc... Maybe these gods will serve in a means similar to what the chosen did, as in they may get access to certain divine power as an overflow, but maybe its somehow locked away for desperate times. In fact, having some "evil" gods in this mix (like Velsharoon / Leira / Malyk) may be a bit of a cornerstone to releasing this power (as in the gods may have to work together to release the power necessary to keep Mystra stable).... so the evil nor the good gods can just siphon the power without the consent of others. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:16:50
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| I am not upset about them bringing in other gods or restoring old ones. That is fine with me (I prefer it). What I *am* upset about is their complete 180 of lore for well-established gods, like Vhaeraun. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do find it interesting that they're pushing Malyk as if he's existed for a while, considering he's a relative newcomer who was then consumed by Talos. My understanding was that he was elevated after the ToT, and by 1372 or thereabouts he was already consumed.
I'm not upset about this, because I consider him another feather in Mystra's hat that I can use, since I've been building up this pool of gods that I feel helped in some way bring Mystra back and now are "secondary" servants to her (unless they're primary servants like Azuth and Savras). So, at present, with returned gods as possibilities, I'm looking at Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Auppenser, Karsus, Malyk, Deneir, Kereska the Wonderbringer, the Red Knight (as a goddess of spell strategy), Finder.... and I could possibly include other racial gods like Eilistraee, Corellon, and possibly gods from other pantheons such as Isis and Thoth.
I am going to remain optimistic and propose that the elements of Vhaeraun's presentation that are such a clear 180-degree departure from everything we know, are a deliberate & very temporary change in strategy by Vhaeraun... which will finally bring about Lolth's destruction & Vhaeraun's ascension to become the Shadow King of the Dark Seldarine.
Ed's Lore is Law. So, I'm thinking that the push of Malyk is related to Vhaeraun now suddenly cultivating an image of a silent/obedient cultural protector... If Vhaeraun is going to truly succeed in overthrowing Lolth & seizing control of the Drow, he should be in a position to be perceived as a protector, rightful heir, and unifying force, instead of a usurpur or perpetrator of a coup... leave that role to Malyk.
It stands to reason that Vhaeraun would be not only be silently allied with Eilistraee, but with Malyk as well... Vhaeraun is identified with Shadow Magic, just as Malyk is identified with Wild Magic... And since both are deities that are historically identified with Rebellion, a secret alliance between the two sounds like a real possibility.
I could actually be pretty on-board with this. Once again, the problem is that the book doesn't support this at all. I mean, if just it said that the followers of Vhaeraun are feigning complacency... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2018 : 22:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Malyk had basically become an aspect of Talos, but his worship did indeed continue. GIven how Amaunator and Lathander have separated after the Sundering, or how the elven "aspects" (which *never* made any sense whatsoever) have returned to being their former selves, it's likely that Malyk too separated (similarly to how the Talos=Gruumsh 4e nonsense has also ended).
As for racial gods as Mystra's helpers, Eilistraee does indeed fit. It is explicitly stated that she is one of the deities with whom Mystra's sharing the Weave as of now.
Yeah, my view of these servant gods of magic is one of helping wedge up Mystra while she's weak... giving her "assistance" in ways that pertain to their own portfolios. In return, I'd imagine these gods are going to expect a little more control in those areas as well, or possibly offerings of shrines in her churches, etc... Maybe these gods will serve in a means similar to what the chosen did, as in they may get access to certain divine power as an overflow, but maybe its somehow locked away for desperate times. In fact, having some "evil" gods in this mix (like Velsharoon / Leira / Malyk) may be a bit of a cornerstone to releasing this power (as in the gods may have to work together to release the power necessary to keep Mystra stable).... so the evil nor the good gods can just siphon the power without the consent of others.
Yeah, I had already read about this take of yours on Mystra/the Weave. It's pretty interesting, tbh. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Tome of Foes FR Lore
