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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 20:59:58
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| The problem with the unreliable narrator approach in source books is that, much like Irennan said, it seems to be the trend WotC is going with, to avoid actually dealing with canon. And, whoever the narrator may be, it's still presented as "this is the way things are". I don't really understand this approach, as DMs have always been able to do what they want, anyway. Yes, I am one of *those* people. I care about the lore, and I don't like the canon out the window approach. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 21:04:57
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quote:
I tend to be of the opinion that the deities are willing to accept whichever form of worship provides them with the most followers... and that can be different or contradictory from world to world, or even on the same world!
Helm is an obvious example of this... His core concept is as a guardian against evil. Helm's adherents in Faerun behave in ways to reinforce this concept as a vigilant protector... meanwhile, in Maztica, Helm's adherents behave in the exact opposite way, as aggressive brutal invaders... and we haven't even left Toril yet.
You see, there's a difference between that and what MToF says. Of course, a deity cannot stop people from praying to them, or labeling themselves as followers.
However, lets look at Helm. He's not good. He's about staying loyal to your duty, and protecting your charge no matter the cost. In Maztica, we see a sect of his followers being crappy humans and succumb to greed. This has nothing to do with Helm's teachings, and--more important--it's a minority of his followers. Even more so, the church of Helm suffered because of it, because it was clear that a sect was betraying some of the core concepts, and stuff needed to be fixed. That's simply an event that shook Helm's church, due to the failings of a part of it.
In MToF, Vhaeraun's core concepts (actually, only one of them) are accepted by only *some* of his followers, and not because they seem to believe in it, but because Vhaeraun apparently is Lolth's favored, so he must be in favor of gender equality (I even fail to see the logic there)??? Those who accept those concepts don't even try to rebel or stuff, they simply passively accept that this is life, and try to reach higher positions in the Lolthite society (which is exactly what *all* drow do, btw). Those who don't accept those concepts outright serve the matrons, mutilate themselves, and then fight for their favor (or something along those lines)! All of that is not an anomaly, it's the normal state of thing in MToF. They did indeed strip Vhaeraun of his identity. How is he different from Selvetarm now? If we set aside the blood-crazed part, their role seems to be very similar.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 21:12:14 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 21:15:14
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| If you want a relevant analogy, it would be like followers of Tempus avoiding battle, followers of Eldath wanting bloodshed, followers of Mystra striving to stifle the development of magic. Basically, actions that contradict the core concept of the deities. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 21:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In MToF, Vhaeraun's core concepts (actually, only one of them) are accepted by only *some* of his followers, and not because they seem to believe in it, but because Vhaeraun apparently is Lolth's favored, so he must be in favor of gender equality (I even fail to see the logic there)??? Those who accept those concepts don't even try to rebel or stuff, they simply passively accept that this is life, and try to reach higher positions in the Lolthite society (which is exactly what *all* drow do, btw). Those who don't accept those concepts outright serve the matrons, mutilate themselves, and then fight for their favor (or something along those lines)! All of that is not an anomaly, it's the normal state of thing in MToF. They did indeed strip Vhaeraun of his identity. How is he different from Selvetarm now? If we set aside the blood-crazed part, their role seems to be very similar.
This is not what I got out of it when I read it... The gender equality thing is presented as a heresy (at least from Lolth's perspective) voiced by a "few" of Vhaeraun's worshipers that the Matriarchy tries to crush whenever it is voiced... and the silent service to the Matrons thing is presented as a method used by "some" Drow communities (which means the Matriarchy) to control Vhaeraun's worshipers.
The things that I interpreted as the core concepts of Vhaeraun in the Tome were: Drow Superiority, Thievery, and Arrogance... and the core concepts of Vhaeraun that I interpreted from "Demihuman Deities" were: Drow Superiority, Thievery, and Arrogance... the same things. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 22:04:29
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quote:
Due to his high status in the Dark Seldarine (for a male) and because of his arrogance, a few of his worshipers look to him as an advocate of equality between male and female drow. That heresy, when it is expressed openly, is liable to be savagely crushed by the priestesses of Lolth. So most of Vhaeraun's male followers honor him simply by trying to carve out better lives for themselves, and that activity is tolerated. Even so, adherents of Vhaeraun don't appear in public without wearing masks. This practice exists in part because Vhaeraun is never portrayed unmasked, and partly because anonymity is a wise precaution when one challenges the social structure of the drow even in a small way.
To quash any challenge to the matriarchy that Vhaeraun might inspire in his followers, some drow communities preach that he wears a mask to hide the terrible scars from the wounds inflicted on him by Lolth as punishment for his arrogance. His silence, too, is part of his punishment, for his tongue was removed for questioning Lolth's orders.
Worshipers of Vhaeraun who believe this dogma sometimes ritually scar and silence themselves as signs of their devotion, and then serve as voiceless, masked bodyguards for the matrons of their house.
Aside from the things that you mention, in DD, Vhaeraun's core concepts--the key steps to achieve drow superiority--are:
1)Stop the infighting, unify the drow, even if that means temporarily setting aside grudges with other deities who could support him
2)Promote drow presence on the surface through whatever means
3)Fight the matriarchy in any possible way, through subterfuge, sabotage (or, when possible, straight revolution--as it has happened).
4)Gender equality.
In this version, 1 concept (equality) is supported by *few* of his worshipers. The rest of the concepts aren't even mentioned.
Most Vhaeraunites just do what all Lolthite do as well (meaning that his faith has no identity), some even entirely betray the DD beliefs by becoming subservient and self-mutilating.
Also, Vhaeraun's tongue was never removed, that's just random, and arrogance is a character trait, not his portfolio.
Now, tell me how this isn't trashing a character...
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 22:12:33 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 22:14:45
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Vhaeraun is one of the extremely few well written villains in D&D, one of that doesn't have idiotic motivations like "muahahaha, I will conquer/destroy the world"
Then they went, trashed lore that has been there for like 26 years (as effin' old as I am!), and made him a pale reflection of himself. Great job, really... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 22:17:51 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 22:24:00
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| I am pretty tired of WotC shoehorning Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. They brought them back, but don't deal with them unless absolutely necessary (and are twisting their lore to make it less likely that they will have to deal with them). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 22:29:54
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| Yep. I'm sick of that. It's extremely childish, to be frank. They prefer Drizzt? Fine, just tell what Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are about and leave them be, like they do with every deity that isn't named Shar, Mystra, or Lolth. No need to trash the beauty of those characters (at this point I feel relieved that Eilistraee has remained her own self). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 22:30:06 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 22:42:24
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Ironically, MToF actually mentions Drizzt earlier in the chapter, when it discusses the hatred between the drow and the elves:
Some elves do manage to transcend this hatred. They have met or heard of dark elves, like Drizzt Do'Urden, who find their own paths in life and few each elf as an individual, not as the representative of one side or the other in a cosmic struggle. (pg 41). Eilistraeens in particular, and to an extent Vhaeraunites would fall in this category too, and it said "dark elves", not "dark elf", as in plural, suggesting that Drizzt clearly isn't the only one.
Also, by lumping the fate of the drow into the uncertain category, they are essentially screwing Drizzt over, too, because he *is* a drow. If they are trying to cater and clear the way for Drizzt, they should have done it differently. I love Drizzt, but c'mon, really? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 23:03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
[quote]Aside from the things that you mention, in DD, Vhaeraun's core concepts--the key steps to achieve drow superiority--are:
1)Stop the infighting, unify the drow, even if that means temporarily setting aside grudges with other deities who could support him
2)Promote drow presence on the surface through whatever means
3)Fight the matriarchy in any possible way, through subterfuge, sabotage (or, when possible, straight revolution--as it has happened).
4)Gender equality.
In this version, 1 concept (equality) is supported by *few* of his worshipers. The rest of the concepts aren't even mentioned.
Most Vhaeraunites just do what all Lolthite do as well (meaning that his faith has no identity), some even entirely betray the DD beliefs by becoming subservient and self-mutilating.
Also, Vhaeraun's tongue was never removed, that's just random, and arrogance is a character trait, not his portfolio.
Now, tell me how this isn't trashing a character...
I totally agree, the tongue thing is random, and he definitely deserved a more thoughtful and detailed presentation... because he really is the most interesting Drow deity.
Regarding the key steps to achieve Drow Superiority:
1. If the amount of infighting can be reduced, or Drow unification is achieved more expediently by appearing to be subservient to Lolth, then he would set aside that grudge temporarily.
2. Same as number 1, if serving Lolth for the time being is the most effective means to this end, then so be it.
3. Straight revolution as a tactic has failed... besides Thieves are better at Subterfuge, Sabotage, Backstabbing & Sneak Attacks anyway... and who could possibly be in a better position to do those things than a Matriarch's Silent Guardian?
4. Don't be too surprised if one of these days Vhaeraun wins the Gender Equality Revolution by "stealing" Corellon's Blessing and having the Matriarchs become suddenly unmasked by Vhaeraun as "The Blessed of Corellon"... Were the Drow really betrayed and ruled by some sort of twisted Lolthite Patriarchy the whole time?!
When that day comes Vhaeraun can finally free the Drow from the terrible influences of both Corellon & Lolth, and they can finally emerge from the Underdark as a people unified by Vhaeraun! |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2018 : 23:26:58
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IIRC, DD clearly states that no compromises must be made when it comes to Lolth, and that Vhaeraun's hatred for her knows no boundaries. In any case:
1. How can unification be achieved by becoming subservient to a deity that wants infighting, and taking part in a society that is built *around* that very pointless infighting?
In the past, Vhaeraunits usually tried to achieve unification by showing the weaknesses of the matriarchy through various violent means. They worked to prove that the matrons are unfit to elevate the drow to the power that they deserve. They turned the unsatisfaction of many drow into their strength.
Eilistraee has the secret moondancers, who hide within Lolthite societies, find people who are in danger or who are in need, and help them. They then show those drow the beauty and joy that they have been denied, and provide them a new home.
In both cases, they don't take part in the society that they're fighting.
2. Lolth wants the drow to stay in the Underdark save for raids. Serving Lolth won't help Vhaeraun establish any presence up there whatsoever.
3. Straight revolution has taken many cities, actually. When it is possible, Vhaeraun supports it. Re: subterfuge, what you say is true. Like it is true for the Masked Traitors. It's only that you kinda have to drop at least a line to explain how it works, or to hint that it is there, because the book paints a *very* different picture otherwise (and how's a newcomer to even know about this subterfuge, when the book doesn't even passingly mention it).
Overall, ToF implies certain degrees of complacency with the status quo (the majority of Vhaeraunites limit themselves to... doing what all Lolthite do, thus even taking part in the inevitable infighting to gain status! In the former editions, they were either busy setting stuff up on the surface, or trying to demolish the matriarchy from within--and that was crystal clear in the lore). Nothing of what I read in that part suggests some scheme or conspiracy to subvert the matriarchy. We can make all the speculations that we like, but they're not really supported by that book (besides, if I am to speculate in order for the lore to make at least some degree of sense, I'd rather just ignore that crap... which I will clearly do, but that's not the point).
This "Vhaeraun" feels like a wolf that had teeth and claws removed, after being beaten into submission.
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun *are* the only thing that makes the drow interesting to me. I prefer the former, but I love the latter as well. They are my favorite characters in the FR. They truly are unique and define the FR drow (not surprising, given that Ed created them for his own game). Take them, you take what makes the FR drow realmsian, and all that you're left with is a copy of the GH drow (a worse one at that, because at least Gygax added some nuance by making the drow commoners lean towards being neutral, and even a potential ally to the players). Seeing them treated like crap really saddens me.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2018 23:47:57 |
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Nai_Calus
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2018 : 17:39:53
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| Hearing about this sickens me. :( Vhaeraun has long been one of my favorite gods, and this... utter travesty... is just... Ugh. It's not Vhaeraun, it will never be Vhaeraun, and yet they've made it him. Why? What does anyone anywhere gain from this random, senseless degradation and the utter destruction of both Vhaeraun himself and his church? Why bring him back just to retcon him into basically not even existing? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2018 : 17:45:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Nai_Calus
Hearing about this sickens me. :( Vhaeraun has long been one of my favorite gods, and this... utter travesty... is just... Ugh. It's not Vhaeraun, it will never be Vhaeraun, and yet they've made it him. Why? What does anyone anywhere gain from this random, senseless degradation and the utter destruction of both Vhaeraun himself and his church? Why bring him back just to retcon him into basically not even existing?
Don't tell me, I feel the exact same way. That's like LP all over. Ever since the end of 3e, WotC has always shown doggedness towards the Dark Seldarine. You can really tell that they just don't want them in the Realms, but are now kinda forced to. It's stupid and random, but it's what they do. F**k this, really. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jun 2018 17:47:16 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2018 : 17:49:29
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| Agreed. And as I said before, if they are trying to make room for Drizzt, they are going about it wrong, because they are screwing him over all well, by changing the drow lore (not that Bob will probably pay much attention, but still). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2018 : 17:52:35
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| It doesn't matter. Really, where his soul will go is a non-factor. They're not trying to help the character, lol, they just want him to be the icon (which he already is, ffs). Heck, I'm going on a leg here, but this whole thing about the drow souls might even make Drizzt "moar speshul" because he will transcend like Kane and his soul will become some godlike thing or something along those lines (you know, unlike those other losers who will just disappear or meet and unknown fate or whatever). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jun 2018 18:06:14 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:22:48
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| Wait, Vhaeraun is now an expy of Keptolo, his polar opposite? What? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:33:54
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| Yeah, half this thread has been a discussion about how Vhaeraun's concept was demolished. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I totally agree with this, and have advocated this for most deities even before MToF. And especially concerning something like the new lore for Vhaeraun, something like whether or not he was silenced should be clear. I mean, everyone knows Gruumsh lost an eye, and that is why some of his priests maim themselves by doing the same.
That wasn't how Gruumsh was described in Monster Mythology. Elves said Corellon took out one of his eyes in their battle, while orcs say Gruumsh was always one-eyed, and even see him as cyclopean (his avatars appeared that way).
Some of his priests took out an eye to emulate him being one-eyed, but not because they were emulating him losing an eye.
However, that's essentially two different religions with different myths and concepts, and their deities could be lying to them about it. But it's not really dogma, either, just iconography, which is far less important than dogma. Most of the dogma is crucial to advancing the material plane goals of the deity; having the dogma diverge dramatically risks the followers operating against the deity's goals, and most deities would send warnings to the followers.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:55:53
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| Keptolo is portrayed as Lolth's consort (or plaything), and Vhaeraun is seen as her favored son (yup, apparently she favors him now). Keptolo represents hedonism, style, as well as "subtle assassin and whisperer of rumors", worshiped by males who wish to emulate him. Vhaeraun represents a "different aspect of masculinity: strong, silent, obedient, swift, and deadly". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 05:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"different aspect of masculinity: strong, silent, obedient, swift, and deadly".
Again, hearing that is the hearing the sounds of nails on a blackboard. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 06:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I totally agree with this, and have advocated this for most deities even before MToF. And especially concerning something like the new lore for Vhaeraun, something like whether or not he was silenced should be clear. I mean, everyone knows Gruumsh lost an eye, and that is why some of his priests maim themselves by doing the same.
That wasn't how Gruumsh was described in Monster Mythology. Elves said Corellon took out one of his eyes in their battle, while orcs say Gruumsh was always one-eyed, and even see him as cyclopean (his avatars appeared that way).
Some of his priests took out an eye to emulate him being one-eyed, but not because they were emulating him losing an eye.
I know the priests removed an eye to emulate him having one eye. It's not the act of the removal. And either way, the point is that the orc priests maim themselves to emulate their god. Whether Gruumsh lost in eye in battle or has always had one eye--his being one-eyed has been in the lore for a while. Vhaeraun being mute, however, and followers silencing themselves in tribute, is new. And, again, by making it only believed by some, WotC is dodging the responsibility of establishing anything concrete.
I agree it isn't dogma, and dogma is important, but in regards to Vhaeraun, it is still a drastic lore change. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jun 2018 06:12:40 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 06:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"different aspect of masculinity: strong, silent, obedient, swift, and deadly".
Again, hearing that is the hearing the sounds of nails on a blackboard.
Mmhhm. Vhaeraun has never been known for his obedience, *especially* to Lolth. Silent? Sure, in the way an assassin is silent, but not in the "I have no tongue" silence that he supposedly has now. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 06:22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I know the priests removed an eye to emulate him having one eye. It's not the act of the removal. And either way, the point is that the orc priests maim themselves to emulate their god. Whether Gruumsh lost in eye in battle or has always had one eye--his being one-eyed has been in the lore for a while. Vhaeraun being mute, however, and followers silencing themselves in tribute, is new. And, again, by making it only believed by some, WotC is dodging the responsibility of establishing anything concrete.
I wasn't defending the change; the whole second part of my post was about that. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 14:54:37
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| Sorry, I must have misunderstood. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 16:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The problem with the unreliable narrator approach in source books is that, much like Irennan said, it seems to be the trend WotC is going with, to avoid actually dealing with canon. And, whoever the narrator may be, it's still presented as "this is the way things are". I don't really understand this approach, as DMs have always been able to do what they want, anyway. Yes, I am one of *those* people. I care about the lore, and I don't like the canon out the window approach.
On THAT, I will say for once that they've been listening to the people here and elsewhere. I know most people have stated that if they're going to be going off with weird ideas that may contradict canon, to put it in the tone of unreliable narrator. Haven't even started reading my copy, but I am glad to hear its written as such.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 16:11:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun is one of the extremely few well written villains in D&D, one of that doesn't have idiotic motivations like "muahahaha, I will conquer/destroy the world"
Then they went, trashed lore that has been there for like 26 years (as effin' old as I am!), and made him a pale reflection of himself. Great job, really...
OMG I'm old |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 16:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Vhaeraun is one of the extremely few well written villains in D&D, one of that doesn't have idiotic motivations like "muahahaha, I will conquer/destroy the world"
Then they went, trashed lore that has been there for like 26 years (as effin' old as I am!), and made him a pale reflection of himself. Great job, really...
OMG I'm old
That's what I said to myself, lol |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2018 : 22:37:32
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| well... I plan on buying this book. I am just am in no hurry to do so |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 18:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I wasn't defending the change; the whole second part of my post was about that. :)
Jeff
Well, I'm going to keep defending the change, because I like change... and so does Cyric.
Anyway, I had to think long & hard about all the consternation that Vhaeraun's change has fomented in this scroll... and I am certainly sympathetic about it, because I definitely see Irennan's point...
However, after further reflecting upon this I realized that I actually like the idea that although Vhaeraun came back from "death" it was not without a price to be paid... In this case, clearly the price was an end to his rebellion against Lolth.
...And it seems like Malyk has fully picked up the mantle of "Drow Rebellion", which is entirely consistent with the Lore regarding Malyk's apotheosis. He picked up part of Mystra (Wild Magic) when she was killed by Helm during the Time of Troubles... This time around it looks like he picked up part of Vhaeraun (Drow Rebellion) when he was killed by Eilistraee during the Spellplague...
This seems to me like an easily justified change that actually is being mindful of Realms Lore & Canon... Anybody that is upset by it should blame Eilistraee for her callous act of fratricide, and embrace Malyk's Rebellion against Lolth's Unholy Matriarchy! |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2018 : 18:56:12
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| Except that Vhaeraun's "death" wasn't even included. It might make more sense if, yes, he came back from "death", and the price was the end of his rebellion (I don't really like it, but it would make more sense). However, they rewrote his lore from the beginning, not from his supposed death. The MToF basically presents it like it has always been this way. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tome of Foes FR Lore
