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shades of eternity
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Posted - 18 Apr 2018 :  15:04:49  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
As I'm doing my reading, I'm noticing often elves are responsible for containing demons, devils and other things from beyond the pale.

I'm trying to see if there are any specific details or examples for my own cross comparison.

failing that here's what I'm thinking.

1. use an acorn/urn to contain the essence so it cannot return to its original plane.
2. wards to entrap it so it cannot summon more of their ilk.
3. I don't think trees of any sort would be particularly smart. too easy to corrupt, but maybe a series of circle of stones.

what are your guys thoughts?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Apr 2018 :  15:41:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trees have been used before; the ghazneths of Cormyr were in/under trees.

Magical entrapment, including pocket dimensions, seem to be the preferred tactic.

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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Apr 2018 :  16:07:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The trees make sense - if you want something 'rooted' to the spot. Its a form of Thaumaturgy (you can use the characteristics of one thing and apply them to another). Of course, them 'getting corrupted over time' is just part of the D&D fun.

For regular fiends it should work fine, but the stronger the fiend, the greater the corrupting influence, but in some cases the elves may not have had much choice, and just left it to later generations (which could even still be THEM) to deal with. A lot of good story potential in that one.

I like that you mentioned 'acorn' - I just now decided the Acorn of Wo Mei was originally a fey artifact.

Aside from using natural things (like trees and terrain features) to entrap fiends and other ebil beings, I think they would have some knowledge of seperating a creature into different pieces for the purpose of weakening and entrapping it. Pandorym jumps to mind (trapped by the Imaskari, but the Imaskari seemed to have learned at least some of their tricks from the Fey). There are other instances of this in D&D, including the storyline with Tharizdun - separating the body and mind of a creature and keeping them in separate places. In my homebrew stuff (partially based on some stuff WotC themselves were doing back in the 4e preview books), I have it where nearly all living beings are composed of three parts - a Body, Mind, & Soul. In a fantasy setting, I've relabeled 'mind' to 'spirit', but its the same thing - a 'sense of self'. These also correspond to psychology's Id, Ego, and Superego (subconscious). So if you truly want to disperse something, you separate all three pieces and hide them in different planes.

And this just made me think about some cosmological stuff - I think maybe Primordials (and related beings, like Elder Evils) don't have the 'Soul' component, and those can only be broken into two parts. That would fit some of the previous lore better, and its got some nice flavor to it.

So yeah, I can see them taking some great threat (archfiend, Elder Evil, etc) and binding the body in-place (to a natural thing, much how Fey 'anchor' themselves to the Material world - its kind of 'their thing', and they should be experts at it), and then taking the thing's consciousness and sending it elsewhere (the ethereal or astral planes would be the most common, but Limbo or any other place without a lot of 'landmarks' to go by would be ideal). The idea is to hide that stuff someplace that would take an eternity to find.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Apr 2018 :  16:11:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As an aside, I was just mulling over in my mind why it seems the elves have -in the past - taken to almost always binding such things rather then just banishing them, unlike humans, who prefer to banish, and it actually makes perfect sense.

If a human banished something and it "can't return for 99 years", or whatever, it's pretty likely the human won't ever see it again. Sure, it can eventually come back, but they'll likely be long gone. An elf, on the other hand, has to worry about something returning, because they themselves are around for so long. The last thing they want to do is send some archfiend home, and a century later (which is like a decade to us), the thing returns to harass them again. In the case of elves, it makes more sense to bind something (which usually last right around a thousand years before it starts to break down - coincidentally about the same amount of time the elf lives for).

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 18 Apr 2018 :  19:56:15  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Everyone else kicks the can of problems down to the next generation, so why not?

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Ayrik
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Posted - 19 Apr 2018 :  03:23:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Corellon's Descent exiled and "contained" drow outcasts within the Underdark.
High Mages "sealed the daemonfey in [extradimensional] magical prisons ... in a perpetual state of near-slumber".
Evereskan Tomb Guardians seem to have access to unique wards and traps of a magical nature.
Mythals can define a boundary which keeps things out or which keeps things in.
Baelnorns might be assigned as immortal "keepers" of anything precious, awesome, powerful, or terrible.
Star elves created the "Sildėyuir" - some sort of extraplanar refuge (possibly some sort of planar Realm or layer within the Feywild).
Finder was condemned to an ageless imprisonment in the Citadel of White Exile (on the "border" between the Positive Energy Plane and the Plane of Radiance) ... nominally by the Harpers, but we all know elves did it.

Elves have devised all sorts of ways to keep "dangerous" things hidden away from each other and from the "lesser" races. Extradimensional/extraplanar exile seems to be their main approach. But imprisonment within some sort of incredibly long-lived entity - like a mythal, a tree, a forest, whatever - seems to be a common fallback. They seem reluctant to actually kill, destroy, or dissipate beings ... but then again, they seem content to feed troublemakers to dragons and treants and humans whenever it's desperately needed.

[/Ayrik]
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Demzer
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Posted - 19 Apr 2018 :  22:20:01  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elves do not contain evil forces, elves are the evil forces.
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Brimstone
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Posted - 20 Apr 2018 :  21:00:17  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Elves do not contain evil forces, elves are the evil forces.


This!

Wasn't there a 3E Prestige Class for Elves like the Loremaster PC, yet only relating to Demons?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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shades of eternity
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Posted - 20 Apr 2018 :  23:00:51  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While there is a historical precedence :p

I think I'm going to go for a fey mound surrounded by trees that connects to a tower/portal into a dimension that looks somewhat like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Sign#/media/File:Elder_sign.jpg

I'm so looking forward to corrupting it. :p

ty kindly guys for the insight. :)


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Edited by - shades of eternity on 20 Apr 2018 23:04:27
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sfdragon
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Posted - 21 Apr 2018 :  01:16:39  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Elves do not contain evil forces, elves are the evil forces.


This!

Wasn't there a 3E Prestige Class for Elves like the Loremaster PC, yet only relating to Demons?


meaning that some thing something of screts in lost empires of faerun.

elves are listed as monsters in FAerun yes that is true, but they are not evil forces, just really really stuck up ( insert word of choice here, Id put one , but it would be removed by a mod saying to not to go name calling)

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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moonbeast
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Posted - 21 Apr 2018 :  14:51:23  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Elves do not contain evil forces, elves are the evil forces.



The most evil forces in the multiverse are the ones that successfully pass themselves off as the good guys. In other words, Elves.
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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Apr 2018 :  18:09:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So what you guys are basically saying is, if Elves want to "contain evil forces", they keep it in their pants?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2018 18:09:36
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shades of eternity
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Posted - 21 Apr 2018 :  19:15:25  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
otherwise it does have a tendency to branch out. :p

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 21 Apr 2018 :  23:44:16  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew when I clicked on this that it would turn into another elf-bashing thread. I honestly do not understand where this dislike comes from. Yeah, elves can be arrogant, and their past has some less than glamorous points, and there have been some nasty individuals, but I feel like I one of, like, three people here who doesn't despise them. I'm sorry to use a real-world example, but that's like hating all Germans for what the Nazis did. Any honest discussion relating to elves always turns into an elf bash.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Apr 2018 00:15:54
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2018 :  00:22:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I knew when I clicked on this that it would turn into another elf-bashing thread. I honestly do not understand where this dislike comes from. Yeah, elves can be arrogant, and their past has some less than glamorous points, and there have been some nasty individuals, but I feel like I one of, like, three people here who doesn't despise them. I'm sorry to use a real-world example, but that's like hating all Germans for what the Nazis did. Any honest discussion relating to elves always turns into an elf bash.



Yeah, all the elf-bashing does get tiresome -- especially since we've seen it so many times previously.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 22 Apr 2018 :  02:32:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I look at that kind of thing as similar to people making jokes about the Irish males and sheep with soft eyes. They don't really mean it, although they can agree that there are SOME instances with elves that may warrant it. Honestly, the first thing I thought when I saw the title of the thread was "they lock themselves in their rooms" (to which I heard an imaginary drum player in the background making the noise "ba dum bum"). Then I saw someone beat me to it, and I was like "damn, second fiddle... too late". Some people do it to roleplay the personae that they adhere to (I used to "talk" in the "voice" of Sleyvas all the time 15 years back, bashing Aglarond, Rashemen, and Mulhorand since he WAS a red wizard back then... for those that don't know my history, he faked his death and moved to Soorenar and later started spending time in Waterdeep watching over his daughter-in-law and his grandchildren... in between still working as a mercenary, bounty hunter, and mageslayer). So, I know there's a couple here who "talk" often in the "voice" of orcs or as a follower of specific deity, etc.... I wouldn't put a lot of venom when someone says something like that, as it may more be banter than anything.

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Demzer
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Posted - 22 Apr 2018 :  22:40:21  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I knew when I clicked on this that it would turn into another elf-bashing thread. I honestly do not understand where this dislike comes from. Yeah, elves can be arrogant, and their past has some less than glamorous points, and there have been some nasty individuals, but I feel like I one of, like, three people here who doesn't despise them. I'm sorry to use a real-world example, but that's like hating all Germans for what the Nazis did. Any honest discussion relating to elves always turns into an elf bash.



Yeah, all the elf-bashing does get tiresome -- especially since we've seen it so many times previously.



If dropping one-liners is seen as "bashing" you need to redefine the code of conduct and rules of this forum.
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shades of eternity
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Posted - 22 Apr 2018 :  23:30:44  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
besides

the best way to respond to the elf haters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxY8lpYAUM

:p

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Apr 2018 :  00:02:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I knew when I clicked on this that it would turn into another elf-bashing thread. I honestly do not understand where this dislike comes from. Yeah, elves can be arrogant, and their past has some less than glamorous points, and there have been some nasty individuals, but I feel like I one of, like, three people here who doesn't despise them. I'm sorry to use a real-world example, but that's like hating all Germans for what the Nazis did. Any honest discussion relating to elves always turns into an elf bash.



Yeah, all the elf-bashing does get tiresome -- especially since we've seen it so many times previously.



If dropping one-liners is seen as "bashing" you need to redefine the code of conduct and rules of this forum.



When the responses are consistently and repetitively negative, it doesn't matter if it's one line or not, it's bashing. Bashing is not defined by the length of what is said.

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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Apr 2018 :  19:49:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, this was more of 'joking' thing than what I've seen in many other threads. At least, that's how I meant it.

And I didn't even make a joke (directly responding - and trying to defuse - the comments above mine) until AFTER I had contributed positively (IMO, of course).

And then there is this line from Ed Greenwood in The Annotated Elminster (in his annotations): "Elves ARE monsters!"

Taken completely - and unashamedly - out of context, of course.

And I think the problem with Elves, CorellonsDevout, is that although ALL races have had their really 'dark moments' (and I won't even say orcs/Goblinoids are any worse than the others... because they are NOT), when Elves do something wrong its usually done in a BIG, flashy way (they are the 'Michael Bays' of 'BOOM magic'). While others have done similar things (I can show you in Dwarves Deep where dwarves used rune-magic to completely destroy an entire city), they do not deny their past. They are not 'apologizers', like the elves are. They own up to the horrific deeds they have done*. Elves refuse to; they maintain that what they did - in nearly every instance where they went completely overboard - that they were "within their rights to do so". I think that is why so many people feel dismay toward FR's elves (and BTW, this attitude doesn't really exist in other settings... at least not nearly as much). Its more of the 'we are so much better than you' attitude (which IS apparent in other settings), when there is so much obvious proof that they are not. If they had just owned up to what they have done and said, "gee guys, that was a bit much, We were total d***s, and we are sorry", I think people could move on. But instead, their attitude seems to imply they can do whatever they want, anytime they want... like 'little gods who walk the earth' (and that right there is canon). So maybe their attitude is just a little justified, because they really are 'little gods', but then they come-off like Sheldon in Big bang Theory. Is he smarter than everyone else? YES... but he doesn't have to constantly rub everyone's faces in it (and he, too, has problems admitting anything was a mistake or his fault).

An this was NOT A BASH. CorellonsDevout asked a perfectly honest question, and I gave her an answer as best I could, at least from my own viewpoint, as to why I personally feel the way I do. I think it's very similar for others here, but I cannot speak for them. Basically, it comes down to this - you can't go through life acting like your feces don't stink, when it smells just as bad as everyone else's. At least when you go out drinking with an orc, he is perfectly honest about what he is, and what he has done. He wears that like a badge of honor.


*Its awfully hard for me to think of any 'big things' Hin and gnomes have done. Like everything else about them - its lots and lots of 'small stuff' over time. They are very sneaky, the both of them, and often operate feely with the human underworld, also feigning innocence at every turn. Thus, I guess it pays to not be 'so flashy'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2018 19:54:43
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BenN
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Japan
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Posted - 24 Apr 2018 :  01:00:02  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that my main issue with all the elf-hating is that it is too generalized - i.e. all elves get tarred with the same brush. Sure, there are plently of examples in FR history of elves doing extremely bad things (Vyshaanti etc), but I think its a mistake to condemn all of them as a result.

I think that elves' main collective failing is hubris. The "we're better than you" attitude means that elves may not consider the consequences of their actions for other races, and when they do screw up (e.g. get corrupted by arch-devils), they refuse to admit the weakness, at least in front of 'lesser' races.

Also, while sun elves are stereotypically arrogant, why does the same hate extend to moon elves & wood elves? I really like the portrayal of wood elves in the "Return of the Archwizards" novel series - while they avoid/dislike humans, they're easy-going (if somewhat amoral), hedonistic, & throw themselves unashamedly into enjoying all sorts of physical pleasures. And they gleefully troll/take the piss out of stuck-up sun elves.

(Yes, Takari is one of my favourite FR characters)

Edited by - BenN on 24 Apr 2018 01:00:50
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Varl
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Posted - 24 Apr 2018 :  13:03:36  Show Profile Send Varl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I knew when I clicked on this that it would turn into another elf-bashing thread. I honestly do not understand where this dislike comes from. Yeah, elves can be arrogant, and their past has some less than glamorous points, and there have been some nasty individuals, but I feel like I one of, like, three people here who doesn't despise them. I'm sorry to use a real-world example, but that's like hating all Germans for what the Nazis did. Any honest discussion relating to elves always turns into an elf bash.



I've always thought of elves as a core good-aligned race, with the exception of the Drow, of course. But surface elves, just as with humanity, has no restrictions from having a myriad of aligned members of their race, so there must be allowable exceptions to the standard elf rule of being good. Think of all the things that could go wrong in an elf's life, things that could be a catalyst to turning evil. I imagine elves have similar tipping points that send them over the edge into evil.

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Balmar Foghaven
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Posted - 24 Apr 2018 :  19:06:38  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I think that my main issue with all the elf-hating is that it is too generalized - i.e. all elves get tarred with the same brush. Sure, there are plently of examples in FR history of elves doing extremely bad things (Vyshaanti etc), but I think its a mistake to condemn all of them as a result.

I think that elves' main collective failing is hubris. The "we're better than you" attitude means that elves may not consider the consequences of their actions for other races, and when they do screw up (e.g. get corrupted by arch-devils), they refuse to admit the weakness, at least in front of 'lesser' races.

Also, while sun elves are stereotypically arrogant, why does the same hate extend to moon elves & wood elves? I really like the portrayal of wood elves in the "Return of the Archwizards" novel series - while they avoid/dislike humans, they're easy-going (if somewhat amoral), hedonistic, & throw themselves unashamedly into enjoying all sorts of physical pleasures. And they gleefully troll/take the piss out of stuck-up sun elves.




I recall reading Ed's "Elminster in Myth Drannor" and thinking to myself 'my god these elves are insane, trying to murder Elminster openly in the street!' But in retrospect, it was mostly an isolated example of the hubris of the nobility. The whole race can't be described by the actions of a sub-set of the population.

But still, thinking back on the brazen murder attempts in the middle of the street in civilized society makes me laugh.


Edit: I believe the event in question involved nobles of both the sun elven and moon elven families of Myth Drannor, btw (if I'm not mistaken).

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."

Edited by - Balmar Foghaven on 24 Apr 2018 19:12:38
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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Apr 2018 :  19:58:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I think that my main issue with all the elf-hating is that it is too generalized - i.e. all elves get tarred with the same brush. Sure, there are plently of examples in FR history of elves doing extremely bad things (Vyshaanti etc), but I think its a mistake to condemn all of them as a result.

I think that elves' main collective failing is hubris. The "we're better than you" attitude means that elves may not consider the consequences of their actions for other races, and when they do screw up (e.g. get corrupted by arch-devils), they refuse to admit the weakness, at least in front of 'lesser' races.

Also, while sun elves are stereotypically arrogant, why does the same hate extend to moon elves & wood elves? I really like the portrayal of wood elves in the "Return of the Archwizards" novel series - while they avoid/dislike humans, they're easy-going (if somewhat amoral), hedonistic, & throw themselves unashamedly into enjoying all sorts of physical pleasures. And they gleefully troll/take the piss out of stuck-up sun elves.
MOST of the wood Elves in Faerūn are 'kill on sight' when someone enters their territory. Some will even kill other elves who trespass, no questions asked (like the ones in the south - the Forest of Amtar, Misty Vale, etc. - you are just used to the somewhat more tolerant northern ones).

Moon Elves really aren't a lot better then Gold Elves - they are just the other end of an extreme. Instead of hating on humans, they pity them, and that's just as bad, if not worse. At least, if I know someone hates me they consider me a potential threat. Better that than 'pitiful'. And you can overcome hate a lot easier than you can overcome pity.

Once again, I am trying to contribute to the current conversation, explaining WHY I feel the way I do about FR's elves (an attitude I didn't have about GH's elves). As a whole, they have zero accountability, and if its okay for them to not only pass judgement on others (for better or worse), but also, to act on that judgement and 'punish' if necessary. I am trying not to just knock them out-right.

And this relates DIRECTLY back to the actual topic - why elves? Why not ask the same thing about dwarves, or humans, or any other races (including humanoids, who have had more than their fair share of tyranny at the hands of 'powerful evils')? The question GOT ASKED because we just assume it's the elves' job... because they do. We've literally become brainwashed in the RW by the propaganda of a fictional race! We've been convinced that when a powerful being or group needs to be 'judged & punished', the elves are supposed to do that. Hows that for a kick in the head?

I am SO tempted to draw RW parallels right now........

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2018 20:21:11
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Apr 2018 :  20:39:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never assumed that it's the job of the elves to contain evil forces... I just figured the times they did it, they did it because they were around and were strong enough to do so.

I've also never felt that moon elves pitied humans -- the impression I've always gotten about moon elves is that they really dig and enjoy being around humans. I've never even felt like moon elves felt superior to humans; I've seen more admiration than anything else.

As for the accountability thing... Most of the things that elves have done that were huge mistakes were done by their leadership or their most powerful members, not the race as a whole, and most of these things happened thousands -- if not tens of thousands -- of years ago. The original perpetrators are long gone, and so are the victims. It doesn't erase what happened, but accountability is far less of an issue when everyone on both sides is dead, and even less when there are few in-setting who even know about it.

Lastly, why are only elves held accountable? Orc hordes swarm out of the North on fairly regular basis, and that's tens of thousands of willing participants, looking to pillage and kill anything that gets in their way.

Sure, orcs will own up to this -- they think they're in the right.
Exactly like the elves that foo'ed the moose on those most notable past occasions.

For some reason, orcs on the warpath against innocent people get a free pass on that, while everyone directs their ire at the mistakes elves made in the past.

I've seen it said more than once, here, that elves get a free pass because they're pretty. From what I can see, though, they wouldn't get a free pass if they used the minimum amount of force necessary for self-defense. It's like they're hated for being pretty, while ugly races get the free pass.

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sleyvas
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USA
7426 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  01:24:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
no, we hate orcs too.. and actually many shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to orcs. Elves actually usually get treated as friends from the get go.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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