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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31298 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  02:45:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

no, we hate orcs too.. and actually many shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to orcs. Elves actually usually get treated as friends from the get go.



In-setting, yes. I'm talking about some of the discussions here.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  03:16:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally see it as 50/50, but on the other hand, we do seem to have lost many of the 'elf lovers' over the years. Its almost as if the Grognardism here at CK lends itself to elf-hate (because WE KNOW better than most fans all the crap the elves have pulled). Or not... I am trying to figure this out objectively, and I think maybe we do tend to drive-away people who like elves a lot, and that's NOT a good thing.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

no, we hate orcs too.. and actually many shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to orcs. Elves actually usually get treated as friends from the get go.
Speak for yourself!

As the founding member of M.I.L.F*, I am all about 'monster rights'!


*Monster International Liberation Front


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1459 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2018 :  12:10:58  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, AFAIK wild/wood elves in the Realms were just like in every other D&D setting: all would hide from invaders, and while some tribes would kill those they could not avoid, others would use other methods, like putting them to sleep magically and carry them out of their territory (sometimes striping them of any valuables which would be a menace to them). The elven resistance to sleep is very useful in these situation.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6623 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2018 :  04:37:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markus

It's not at all that Grognardism lends itself to elf-hate. Haters gonna hate without needing any help at all from the Grogs. It's just that Grognardism lends one to admire the robustness of dwarves, the elasticity of humans, the deviousness of gnomes, etc - a model in which the virtue of elves is their grace and beauty and elegance, which are not insignificant things, but which quite simply don't properly take the forefront priority in a game of hack-n-slash adventure/survival.

[/Ayrik]
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1669 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2018 :  15:02:24  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Corellon's Descent exiled and "contained" drow outcasts within the Underdark.

I've seen the subject and wanted to answer "badly", but couldn't remember anything mishandled quite as horribly as that one.
The case of House Tsornyl, while on a much smaller scale, is similar in some ways, however.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I knew when I clicked on this that it would turn into another elf-bashing thread. I honestly do not understand where this dislike comes from.

Because of guess whom. Near-universal dislike of mary sues, mostly. And then it becomes a shared joke and gradually memmifies.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
450 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2018 :  16:33:17  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

@Markus

It's not at all that Grognardism lends itself to elf-hate. Haters gonna hate without needing any help at all from the Grogs. It's just that Grognardism lends one to admire the robustness of dwarves, the elasticity of humans, the deviousness of gnomes, etc - a model in which the virtue of elves is their grace and beauty and elegance, which are not insignificant things, but which quite simply don't...


Umm, to be fair…. did you forget about the Elven penchant for the magical arts (i.e. spellcasting in metagame terms), as well as their requisite Intelligence? Those things actually are quite helpful for PCs to survive their adventures.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2018 :  17:18:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

@Markus

It's not at all that Grognardism lends itself to elf-hate. Haters gonna hate without needing any help at all from the Grogs. It's just that Grognardism lends one to admire the robustness of dwarves, the elasticity of humans, the deviousness of gnomes, etc - a model in which the virtue of elves is their grace and beauty and elegance, which are not insignificant things, but which quite simply don't properly take the forefront priority in a game of hack-n-slash adventure/survival.
I didn't mean 'grognardise' in-general. A lot of settings have Grognards (Greyhawk, for example), and yet, Elves don't get that level of hate.

I mean CANDLEKEEP Grognardise in particular, because as avid (rabid?) fans of the lore, all the glaring, over-the-top catastrophes they've caused (wiping-out entire civilizations!) REALLY stands out to us - much more than the casual gamer who's 'just running stuff in The Realms'.

In other words, we hate on the elves much more so BECAUSE we love the setting so much - a person who doesn't like FR might not even know all the stuff they have done. I am trying to get at the core issue here, and other FR-based fan sites just don't get the level of disdain for elves we do here.

Now Orcs, on the other hand, "get a free pass" as Wooly says, because of the liberal side of the equation. 'Bigotry through reverse discrimination', or some-such. We EXPECT the elves to know better - they're so SMART and cute. We think of Orcs as 'stupid brutes', so we don't expect good behavior from them. We've basically lowered the bar for them. I was around in the RW in the 70's when we had this brand new thing called 'affirmative action', which was probably the most subtle form of bigotry possible. By 'lowering standards', you are basically saying the group you are doing so for is 'substandard'. We just don't expect them to behave themselves.

In the words of General Vrakk (an Zhentish Orc who received a medal of honor from King Azoun) - "You treat as like monsters, we BE monsters!"

So we wind up saying things like, "its okay that they kill babies, because its, like ya know, their culture and stuff". They will never be held to the same standards as elves.

And although I was trying to avoid RW comparisons, since I've taken the plunge (and probably pissing people off anyway), let me swing fully the other direction (being the die-hard anarchist I am) - Elves have 'Elf Privilege', and that's whats pissing us off. We expect the orcs to behave like monsters, but we expect the elves to behave nicely, so they are the ones who ACTUALLY get the 'free pass'. Create Tidal Wave that annihilates an entire country? Bad elf! Let me give you an admonishing look! Orcs form a horde and raid all over the North: Bad Orcs! let me me chase you back into the mountains where you belong, you filthy savages! And once there I will slaughter your families to make sure you never breed again!"

And there's the difference. Comparing them to RW situations might have rubbed a few nerves raw, but its the only way we can figure-out whats going on with US psychologically here, and why we look at these groups (and judge them) so differently. On a global scale, the orcs receive the better end of the deal. But taken individually, the elves do - while in the former we forgive the race but condemn the individual, with the latter, we condemn the individuals, but forgive them as a race.

Cheers

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2018 17:21:40
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31298 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2018 :  17:51:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see it that way. From what I see, elves are being held to a much higher standard than orcs -- people are hating on the entire race for the actions of an ancient few. The elves active in the Realms today are, even by their own standards, generations removed from the actions we're getting so upset about. And those actions weren't committed by a united elvendom -- they were the actions of the elite few from just one or two nations.

So 35,000 years ago, 100 elves do something very bad -- and we hate the entire race for it, to this day.

On the flip side, just a decade or two ago, 350,000 orcs come pouring out of the North, destroying everything in their path -- and we let that slide.

That's the free pass I was referring to.

There are people here who condemn all elves, living or dead, for the millennia-ago actions of a few -- but ignore the same amount of more recent destruction at orc hands because hey, there's handful over here that don't act like that, so we can't assume the entire race is that way.

That's why the elf-bashing pisses me off. It's a double-standard.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

615 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2018 :  20:58:03  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was staying away from the conversation to avoid derailing it further but I see it went fully in one direction so I might as well elaborate on the "elf-hate".

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The elves active in the Realms today are, even by their own standards, generations removed from the actions we're getting so upset about. And those actions weren't committed by a united elvendom -- they were the actions of the elite few from just one or two nations.

So 35,000 years ago, 100 elves do something very bad -- and we hate the entire race for it, to this day.

On the flip side, just a decade or two ago, 350,000 orcs come pouring out of the North, destroying everything in their path -- and we let that slide.

That's the free pass I was referring to.

There are people here who condemn all elves, living or dead, for the millennia-ago actions of a few -- but ignore the same amount of more recent destruction at orc hands because hey, there's handful over here that don't act like that, so we can't assume the entire race is that way.

That's why the elf-bashing pisses me off. It's a double-standard.



The problem here Wooly is that the elves as an entire race and their most important political and religious institutions never ever spent a word with the rest of Fearun to apology or even to admit the heinous crimes their ancestors did. Worst, most of the time they actively discourage talking about any of the elven-caused disasters with "the lesser races" and even among elves.
The thing is that with this politics in place, beside never owning up to their crimes with the rest of Fearun, they're guaranteeing that even among their own kind, the elves, almost everyone ignores their crimes. So those individuals (probably the majority of the "common" elves we routinely see around Faerun) that would rightly be disgusted at those action and at the lack of any kind of reparative measure, even in the form of apologies, remain blissfully ignorant of everything.
And the trouble is that we here know about these things and can "hate" (I keep quoting this because it's such a strong word to use for a discussion on an rpg) the elves for that but in-setting, they got away with it, almost nobody knows and of those that know most prefer to keep things quiet even if they should be paragons of righteousness and blessed by multiple deities reputed to belong to the "good" side of the spectrum (yeah, I'm looking at Queen Amlauril and the rest of the king/queens in the last thousands of years, sorry if I can't exactly remember who they are).
These kind of things in the real world happen only with organized crime and that's why I "hate" them even more. They f***ing did it, they got away, nobody knows they've got genocides in their past, climate changes on global scales, continent shattering shenanigans and so on and so forth (and yet they yell at any woodcutter they see).

Also, I don't think your orc comparison holds, because everyone in-setting hates (no quotes, they do for real) orcs. They have been the most abused race because they plunder and pillage and then everyone else bands together to eradicate them in the most absolute way (and they all fail, which should tell somebody something about "master race" since this guys keep surviving one genocidal spree after suicidal horde right after the other).

So the situation is that in-setting everyone hates the orcs for what they do (which is completely understandable) and nobody knows tha the elves have committed worst crimes and have never paid the due price for them, so they're fine.
Out-of-setting we know what both orcs and elves did, we already know orcs get routinely kicked in the jimmies with their own families massacred so personally I don't really see the point on piling on them, the elves on the other hand are untouched and that's not good in my book. If you engage in genocide, you should pay, not cover up everything and wait for everyone to forget, if you sunder continents destroying civilizations that you didn't even care for you should pay. If you turn the land into gooey inhospitable paste to win your wars you should pay.
The orcs pay all the time, the elves still have to even own up to their past crimes.
Also, time should not be a factor, if your crime is against humanity in real world, the fact that X hundred of years have passed doesn't mean you didn't do anything.

Now, to get kinda of back into the OP, I don't know it you are still following this thread but about elves containing evil things I can add this: there are dozens of case of elves using their attunement to the Weave/nature/the land and their mastery of magic to bind and control powerful evil forces (off the top of my head I can think about the fey'ry, an avatar of the god Moander, the Trio Nefarious at their first try, I'm sure the elven experts can list way more) but the problem is (and we kind of fall back to my above problems with the elven race) that they almost never care to inform anyone even about the mere existences of these prisons/containers and then they leave so by accident, the work of evil cultist or simply the passage of time, most of those evils contained in the first place resurface and bother the rest of the world (excpet mostly the elves that are far away by then).
I don't know if this happens because elves are reluctant to snuff out such powerful forces (seems strange that they should think higher of evil outsider than, say, human populations) or they lacked the power to destroy them in the first place and then simply forgot.

When thinking about elven prisons for evil a passage from Douglas Adams comes to my mind, I'm sorry I can't cite it correctly but the gist of it was that usually when engineers design something they never design it idiot-proof so they maybe foresee and prevent a lot of bad outcomes but don't foresee exactly everything that can go wrong especially if it sounds absurd and preposterous (like no good-hearted chromatic dragon would ever fly above Myth Drannor, right? Yeah ... then you have one elf obsessed in doing exactly that ...)

Anyway, I hope this contribution garners better reaction than the other, surely took a lot more time to write it.
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
94 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2018 :  21:54:24  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see it that way. From what I see, elves are being held to a much higher standard than orcs -- people are hating on the entire race for the actions of an ancient few. The elves active in the Realms today are, even by their own standards, generations removed from the actions we're getting so upset about. And those actions weren't committed by a united elvendom -- they were the actions of the elite few from just one or two nations.

So 35,000 years ago, 100 elves do something very bad -- and we hate the entire race for it, to this day.

On the flip side, just a decade or two ago, 350,000 orcs come pouring out of the North, destroying everything in their path -- and we let that slide.

That's the free pass I was referring to.

There are people here who condemn all elves, living or dead, for the millennia-ago actions of a few -- but ignore the same amount of more recent destruction at orc hands because hey, there's handful over here that don't act like that, so we can't assume the entire race is that way.

That's why the elf-bashing pisses me off. It's a double-standard.



I agree. I also don't understand why we are holding the elves up to such a high standard, but not other races such as *ahem* humans. Both are equally inclined towards good or evil as individuals, despite the belief that "nah, most elves are good". It appears to me that this standard is, at least in the setting, set by the elves upon themselves by their apparent disdain for the "lesser" races; though even then it's as Wooly described - an opinion borne mostly by the nobility or those who have been directly harmed by humanity.

I feel that the elven mentality stems from Tolkien's work in that they pity humanity for its short lifespan and are aghast at humanity's propensity for rapidly expanding their 'unnatural' civilizations. Yet the problem therein is that FR is not Middle Earth, and has a completely different feel. That's why if we attribute Tolkienesque qualities to FR elves - which I feel is done all too often - it makes them feel shallow and, put simply, look like a bunch of a-holes.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
94 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2018 :  22:06:15  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


The problem here Wooly is that the elves as an entire race and their most important political and religious institutions never ever spent a word with the rest of Fearun to apology or even to admit the heinous crimes their ancestors did. Worst, most of the time they actively discourage talking about any of the elven-caused disasters with "the lesser races" and even among elves.



While it's true that there is little evidence to suggest that they actually ever apologize for their past misdeeds or arrogance, I would propose that this has to do with their nature and not out of any malicious intent. We must remember that as long-lived entities, they probably all have such events fresh in their minds and would probably rather not speak of it in public - like removing a Band-Aid off as fresh wound. I would not be surprised if the elves around at the time of the dark deeds did apologize to those whom they affected, and therefore did not consider that they would need to apologize again to future generations.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31298 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2018 :  22:20:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

The problem here Wooly is that the elves as an entire race and their most important political and religious institutions never ever spent a word with the rest of Fearun to apology or even to admit the heinous crimes their ancestors did. Worst, most of the time they actively discourage talking about any of the elven-caused disasters with "the lesser races" and even among elves.


Most of the folk in the Realms don't even know what the elves did. Why should modern elves apologize for something do so long ago that no one knows about it? Honestly, I'd say most modern elves don't even know about some of those things.

Most of the people in the Realms wouldn't care, anyway -- oh, they wiped out a nation that was threatening them? Oh, they kicked a bunch of elves underground? What does it matter to a farmer in the North that elves took out Jhaamdath?

And it wasn't the ancestors of all of the elves -- again, it was the leadership that did those things. The rank and file elves did not.

Lastly, when was the last orc apology?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


And the trouble is that we here know about these things and can "hate" (I keep quoting this because it's such a strong word to use for a discussion on an rpg) the elves for that but in-setting, they got away with it, almost nobody knows and of those that know most prefer to keep things quiet even if they should be paragons of righteousness and blessed by multiple deities reputed to belong to the "good" side of the spectrum (yeah, I'm looking at Queen Amlauril and the rest of the king/queens in the last thousands of years, sorry if I can't exactly remember who they are).


So all elves should be punished, for all eternity, for the actions of a few?


quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Also, I don't think your orc comparison holds, because everyone in-setting hates (no quotes, they do for real) orcs. They have been the most abused race because they plunder and pillage and then everyone else bands together to eradicate them in the most absolute way (and they all fail, which should tell somebody something about "master race" since this guys keep surviving one genocidal spree after suicidal horde right after the other).


The comparison does hold, because I wasn't talking about in-setting. I was talking about these discussions. Even here, you're castigating all of elvenkind for the crimes of the past and saying that orcs are abused because people don't like being murdered by orc hordes.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


Out-of-setting we know what both orcs and elves did, we already know orcs get routinely kicked in the jimmies with their own families massacred so personally I don't really see the point on piling on them, the elves on the other hand are untouched and that's not good in my book. If you engage in genocide, you should pay, not cover up everything and wait for everyone to forget, if you sunder continents destroying civilizations that you didn't even care for you should pay. If you turn the land into gooey inhospitable paste to win your wars you should pay.


When have elves engaged in genocide? They've taken out nations they were at war with, but the last I checked, there were still orcs, and elves, and humans in the Realms.

And I'd hardly call it covering up something when no one cares to even look it up. Again, who in the Realms is going to hold a beef over something done 35000 years ago?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


The orcs pay all the time, the elves still have to even own up to their past crimes.
Also, time should not be a factor, if your crime is against humanity in real world, the fact that X hundred of years have passed doesn't mean you didn't do anything.


This right here is a good example of how elves are held to higher standards. An orc horde wipes out a human nation that had never done anything to them, meh, who cares? Elves wipe out the human nation that was attacking them -- that's a crime against humanity, and one that they should apologize for.

And I would say the elves have paid for what they've done. Elves are their own greatest enemies. They'd done more damage to themselves than to anyone else.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Apr 2018 22:23:16
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

615 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2018 :  22:54:42  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No elf alive at the time moved a finger to give aid to the people that survived the drowning of Jhaamdath, no elf alive at the time did anything about the fact that their crazy cousins took out tens of thousands of humans in an instant.
No elf alive at the time protested with his/her priest of choice that innocent dark elves were being hunted down.
No elf gave a f**k about what they did to Toril because they got their pretty little island.

The orcs are too busy being dead to apologize, they don't outlast their victims by much.
Elves outlast their victims and don't give a s**t about them.
Repeatedly.

You seem to think I like orcs, I don't give a rats arse about the green skins. But they are unfairly brought up as the "real" monsters when they're at worst like a lot of human societies that are both present in the Forgotten Realms and were present in the real world.

Also I'm not saying that elves should be punished, I'm saying that people still likes to bash Netheril and other human empires that did far less damage than a couple of all-mighty elves, yet when you say something about elves it's "elf-hate". Talk about double standard.

Yes, I would be extremely happy with Queen Amlauril broadcasting a mental image of all the f**k up the elves did to all elves and say something like "Yep guys, we did this, so stop being pricks to the rest of the world and remember that only dragonkind and Ao did as much damage or I will spank you with all my godly given powers", I bet she can do it but that will never happen.

I struggle to think of any form of punishment, I don't think any descendant of the worst elven offenders even survives to the "playing eras" of 1350s onward and I would not hold anything to them either (that would be like holding Nazi crimes against some nephew that saw SS grandpa twice in his life). But a big part of reconciliation in history is made up of official apologies, truces, agreements, shows of goodwill at the highest ranks of the political/social/religious hierarchy.
The elves stick to the "congress" of demihuman races without any of that. By contrast the orcs still want to tear down that "congress" so I don't care if they keep being stuck in the loop of hordes, it's unfair to their victims and the orcs get executed, end of the story.
Some of the elves that did those past atrocities went to Arvandor peacefully, I don't find that acceptable.

EDIT: about the genocide bit, you know about many people from Jhaamdath after the wave? Me neither. It was an human ethnicity that was practically wiped out in one single stroke. The fact that there were few scattered survivors doesn't mean it was not genocidal intent to drown the whole nation for the crimes of their leadership

Edited by - Demzer on 29 Apr 2018 23:00:57
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31298 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  01:26:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

No elf alive at the time moved a finger to give aid to the people that survived the drowning of Jhaamdath, no elf alive at the time did anything about the fact that their crazy cousins took out tens of thousands of humans in an instant.
No elf alive at the time protested with his/her priest of choice that innocent dark elves were being hunted down.
No elf gave a f**k about what they did to Toril because they got their pretty little island.


Ah, you know for a fact, then, that there were no elven protests? You know for a fact that the entire race knew about all of these things before they happened, knew exactly what was going to happen (when even the spellcasters didn't), and none of them said a word?

Pray, where does this info come from?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

The orcs are too busy being dead to apologize, they don't outlast their victims by much.
Elves outlast their victims and don't give a s**t about them.
Repeatedly.


Sources, please. If you're going to tell me that elves are evil for their attitude, I want to see this documented.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer



You seem to think I like orcs, I don't give a rats arse about the green skins. But they are unfairly brought up as the "real" monsters when they're at worst like a lot of human societies that are both present in the Forgotten Realms and were present in the real world.


No, I'm not saying you like orcs. But you are apologizing for them and saying that large numbers of orcs coming together to wipe out entire nations just because they were there, repeatedly, is somehow nowhere near as bad as wiping out an enemy in an act of self-defense.

Innocent nations wiped out by hordes that form for the point of destruction, compared to nations at war that were destroyed by their enemies. The end results are the same, but I can't understand how the latter is so much worse than the former.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Also I'm not saying that elves should be punished, I'm saying that people still likes to bash Netheril and other human empires that did far less damage than a couple of all-mighty elves, yet when you say something about elves it's "elf-hate". Talk about double standard.


No, but you are accusing them of hiding the past from everyone and saying they should be apologizing -- which would, of course, have the effect of making people fear them and think maybe they should hunt down and kill the elves before such things could happen again.

And again, the double-standard is letting everyone else off the hook for the same thing -- or worse! -- but going on and on at great length to explain how it's wrong when elves do it. Forgiving X for something and punishing Y for the same thing is a double-standard.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Yes, I would be extremely happy with Queen Amlauril broadcasting a mental image of all the f**k up the elves did to all elves and say something like "Yep guys, we did this, so stop being pricks to the rest of the world and remember that only dragonkind and Ao did as much damage or I will spank you with all my godly given powers", I bet she can do it but that will never happen.


What would the point of that be? And again, why are elves the only ones that should get this treatment?

And aside from gold elves, the remaining elves are not, in general pricks to the rest of the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I struggle to think of any form of punishment, I don't think any descendant of the worst elven offenders even survives to the "playing eras" of 1350s onward and I would not hold anything to them either (that would be like holding Nazi crimes against some nephew that saw SS grandpa twice in his life). But a big part of reconciliation in history is made up of official apologies, truces, agreements, shows of goodwill at the highest ranks of the political/social/religious hierarchy.


So you don't want them punished, but you want them to go out of their way to apologize and form truces to make up for these things that are thousands of years gone. Who should they form these truces with? Descendants of humans who came to the affected areas millennia later? The drow that were happily trying to kill them before being forced underground? The long-since-dead elves that were often the main targets of these crimes you can't let go of?

And this isn't punishment, when no other race is expected to do this?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


The elves stick to the "congress" of demihuman races without any of that. By contrast the orcs still want to tear down that "congress" so I don't care if they keep being stuck in the loop of hordes, it's unfair to their victims and the orcs get executed, end of the story.


So it's the end of the story because the orcs that do bad things die from it, but thousands of years after the deaths of the elves that did these things, it's not the end of the story. And this isn't a double-standard?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


Some of the elves that did those past atrocities went to Arvandor peacefully, I don't find that acceptable.


You can prove this? You have canon information that says they were welcomed to Arvandor with open arms, and not sent elsewhere or forced to do some sort of penance? Sources, please.

Rampaging orcs go to their afterlives, too, but I guess that's okay.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

EDIT: about the genocide bit, you know about many people from Jhaamdath after the wave? Me neither. It was an human ethnicity that was practically wiped out in one single stroke. The fact that there were few scattered survivors doesn't mean it was not genocidal intent to drown the whole nation for the crimes of their leadership



One nation, that was attacking the elves, and the elves responded with a single counter-strike. It wasn't a series of attacks, and they didn't go in afterward to make sure they'd not missed anyone. It was just one attack.

Maybe it's just me, but self-defense in a time of war is not what I'd call genocide.

If the elves had launched multiple waves, and then gone in on land to make sure, then I'd agree that it was genocide.

But I guess it's okay for someone to go out of their way to wage war upon elves. Elves should just apologize and die, apparently, because doing anything else is a crime against humanity.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Apr 2018 01:27:46
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Ayrik
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Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  02:07:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1E Unearthed Arcana has a "Racial Preferences Table" which indicates that humans generally have a "Neutral" attitude to (all types of) elves, while elves generally have varying "Neutral" or "Antipathy" attitudes towards humans. Not the more positive attitudes of "Preferred", "Goodwill", or "Tolerance" ... nor the most negative attitude of strong "Hatred".

"Neutral" meaning somewhat tolerated, when thought of at all, although some mistrust and suspicions are evident.

It seems Candlekeep generally holds true to this, lol, Gygax was a genius.

[/Ayrik]
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BenN
Learned Scribe

Japan
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Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  06:09:17  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From my understanding, the reason why elves are reluctant to discuss their ancestors' crimes is a mixture of pride and shame; they are ashamed to admit to their not-so-good past, especially to other races. If you view yourself as superior (or maybe 'blessed') compared to other races, it is especially hard to admit some great failing & misdeed.

And surely the important thing to remember is that current elves have no intention of repeating the past crimes, which cannot be said of orcs......
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sleyvas
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Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  12:56:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

No elf alive at the time moved a finger to give aid to the people that survived the drowning of Jhaamdath, no elf alive at the time did anything about the fact that their crazy cousins took out tens of thousands of humans in an instant.
<snip>
EDIT: about the genocide bit, you know about many people from Jhaamdath after the wave? Me neither. It was an human ethnicity that was practically wiped out in one single stroke. The fact that there were few scattered survivors doesn't mean it was not genocidal intent to drown the whole nation for the crimes of their leadership



You know, I have always thought this was horrible, but until just now I hadn't seen a possible "undocumented" horror here. The potential for sorcery and possibly even wizardry are seen by many as possibly relating back to elven blood in the lines of humanity (or dragon blood, or some other blood).

However, in Jhaamdath, it MIGHT have been that this particular "strain" of humans had finally evolved to the point that they were developing psionics on their own. Furthermore, they may have had more individuals showing psionics percentage wise than they were producing as viable wizards and sorcerers. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jhaamdath didn't discover the ritual process that turns a normal human into an Elan.... possibly adapting a ritual used in the creation of some of the yuan-ti from humans (yes, some of that was breeding... but we also have lore of a ritual used to change humans as well). I've always pictured Jhaamdath as very much like the Deryni, but not the ones where the Haldanes rule and the Catholic religion tries to push them down.... more like their opposing country of Torenth, in which Deryni are appreciated.

In fact, Eytan Bernstein's article on psionic races and classes does tie the Elan race to Jhaamdath. It also says that the secret ritual to ritual to their creation was lost with Jhaamdath.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070620



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
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Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  16:08:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dwarves have long maintained a genocidal war vs orcs. They'll happily and ruthlessly slay every orc they can reach with an axe, no mercy, no exceptions.

Humans likewise exterminate trolls, kobolds, goblins and goblinoids without a thought. Whole villages or "nests" of these "dangerous vermin". At least whenever these creatures dare to encroach ("infest") areas near human territories and resources.

Indeed, all the "civilized" human and demihuman races (except perhaps halflings) have campaigned against other sentients ranging from their own kind to each other to giants and dragons - even when these other beings prefer to remain peacefully isolated and ignored. And everyone kills drow, duergar, etc, on sight with a fanatically religious-like passion that isn't always justified. It's understandable to fight genocidal wars vs creatures like fiends or illithids or vampires - really, with such adversaries one typically has little choice beyond "kill or be killed" - but there have been instances where orcs, drow, and dragons have actually been quite decent fellows and "extermination" is a euphemism for "murder", and there have been many other instances where the boundaries and definitions seem much blurrier.

Just saying that a history of ruthless cold-blooded (or hot-blooded) genocide isn't an exclusively elven fault. Each of the other sentient races in the Realms (except perhaps halflings) has put plenty of skeletons into their closets.

[/Ayrik]
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TBeholder
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Posted - 30 Apr 2018 :  16:13:57  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see it that way. From what I see, elves are being held to a much higher standard than orcs

In-universe, they are treated not the same way as the orcs.
Also out-of-universe, we don't have to deal with the same number of vocal "I dig brutish men in leather!" fans as "OMG androgynous ubermenschen like in Final Fantasy XXX!!!1" fangirls (or anywhere within 2 orders of magnitude). Which, most likely contributes more. Hence the result.
The latter is more important. Similar dislike Warhammer 40k fans have for the Tau, and it even coexists with humorous fan-[self]-service. While the 40k Eldar are as much of uppity jackasses as elves anywhere else - but then, everyone is, and there's no annoying crowd is squeeing in their direction. Coincidentally, the crowd squeeing at Tau are mix of universally reviled "weeaboo" due to plastic mechas and socialists due to "common good", while the "classic" elf crowd tend toward "green pinkos" and androgyny fetish, i.e. overlaps with the latter.
And speaking of things that could be improved by generous use of flamethrowers -
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

In fact, Eytan Bernstein's article on psionic races and classes does tie

...anything with anything, whether it serves either of those things well or not. And if Pearl Diver class did exist in Wizards' 3.x, some Eytan Bernstein's article would give instructions on how to shoehorn it into desert setting. I dislike excessively fancy classes (though mostly single-gimmick ones), but come on, the level of shoehorning his articles promoted is ridiculous.

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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 May 2018 :  00:47:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

In fact, Eytan Bernstein's article on psionic races and classes does tie

...anything with anything, whether it serves either of those things well or not. And if Pearl Diver class did exist in Wizards' 3.x, some Eytan Bernstein's article would give instructions on how to shoehorn it into desert setting. I dislike excessively fancy classes (though mostly single-gimmick ones), but come on, the level of shoehorning his articles promoted is ridiculous.



Think what you like, I don't see anything wrong with saying that the Elan (a race of humans who are ritually "opened" to psionics) would be tied to Jhaamdath. The fact that I found that it was already being proposed by someone else before I brought it up makes me like the idea even more. The concept is very very much like the Deryni, and I'd love to see it "fit" into other areas of the realms. In fact, since a lot of Jhaamdathi refugees fled to Impiltur, it would be interesting to me if the royal family and nobility of Impiltur are protected by "hidden in plain sight" royal guards who are Elans (in the form of psions, psychic warriors, and soulknives).... but the ritual itself is treated as some kind of "Divine" right by priests of Siamorphe for members of the royal family who are not in line for the throne.


From Expanded Psionics Handbook
Elans are not born; they are made. Living humans are selected
from a pool of applicants and screened by a special elan
council. Those who pass muster undergo a secret psionic
process in one of several hidden elan enclaves, where they
abandon their humanity for a new, psionically energized existence.
Thus, elans do not reproduce biologically, but rather
psionically, through a mysterious psionic ritual known only
to elans. Even then, their “children” are usually already fully
formed adult humans. Nonhuman elans are never created,
and it could be that the ritual simply doesn’t work for any
creatures but those who were originally human.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sfdragon
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Posted - 01 May 2018 :  00:52:51  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
jhaamdath.... not my favorite lost empire.... not now, not 2 years ago, not ever.

one thing though you must remember out elves. they reply somethings with disdain, but respond to violence
in kind.

the moment jhaamdath started killing elves and cutting down trees in elven territory, the moment that sealed their fates after they had so many elves murdered and for what, resources?

if you think that jhaamdath;s fate was genocide, and start talking about the innocent( not that you were, but others have) jhaamdathan, than one is looking at only 1 half of the pie. what about the other half, what about the innocent elves?

no elf in taht area would ahve helped the survivors of fallen jhaamdath.

and if you read taht aforementioned article, it does say even the good citizens were too far caught up in their empire to see the destruction it was causing .

no elf should have to come out and appologize for defending their own against militaristic desires of tehir neighbors.


so how do elves contain evil forces?
if they can defeat it, they will do so brutally( like they did with jhaamdath, and house vyshaan)
if they can not defeat, then they imprison it

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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moonbeast
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Posted - 02 May 2018 :  09:59:16  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, very divisive topic it seems.

Can we all just agree that the single most reckless and indiscriminately-genocidal race is the species of creatures called the Murderhobos?
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Misereor
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Posted - 02 May 2018 :  10:19:36  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Hmm, very divisive topic it seems.

Can we all just agree that the single most reckless and indiscriminately-genocidal race is the species of creatures called the Murderhobos?



Dunno. After first watching "Bright" and then reading this thread, I'm getting kinda inspired for a Shadowrun WW2 campaign with elves in SS uniforms as the bad guys. Slightly off-topic though...


What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 02 May 2018 :  18:17:55  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyhow, the major known cases are: vs. fiends - nycaloths ("Trio Nefarious") imprisoned somewhere near Cormanthor, vs. outbreaks of Moander - Tsornyl and Yulash.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 02 May 2018 :  19:10:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't forget the fey'ri.

And it's been a while since I read those books... Was Malkizid also imprisoned?

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