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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  17:03:02  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So they announced that Paizo will be releasing a playtest in August for a public playtest for the 2nd edition of Pathfinder, a system that apparently won't be compatible with the current system.

Here's the link on ENworld:
Pathfinder 2e

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2960 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  17:31:01  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
10 years is a good run.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30976 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  18:35:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That doesn't surprise me, given the fact that Starfinder is already Pathfinder 2E.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  19:11:48  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what Ive read, they'll be distinctly different.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Scots Dragon
Seeker

17 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  22:33:42  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This kinda amused me from the Pathfinder 2E FAQ;
quote:
Will world-shattering events change the basic assumptions of the setting?
People familiar with Andoran, Cheliax, Osirion, Qadira, Taldor, and all the rest will still recognize these nations in their Second Edition iterations. No global cataclysm will alter the fundamental assumptions of the setting, and we aren't planning on killing off your favorite deity. However, some plot points from past Adventure Paths will become part of the setting's core assumption, like new rulers in Korvosa and Taldor, and a shifting political landscape in northwestern Cheliax. The forthcoming Return of the Runelords Adventure Path and the as-yet-unannounced final First Edition Adventure Path will plant new seeds for the setting going forward; any significant changes to the setting will happen "on screen" so players can participate in them at the table.


Yeah, this isn't a specific reference to anything. Nooo sir.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2960 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  00:08:05  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Golarion will get NUKED for 3E Pathfinder.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 08 Mar 2018 00:08:33
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3126 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  03:06:31  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-There goes the neighborhood.

-I wonder how far from the 3e rules they will go. New edition means you gotta do new stuff, but the whole reason Paizo is still a thing is because people didn't want to abandon the 3e rules, so I guess we'll see.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3078 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  11:54:17  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking through Starfinder, there are quite a few differences (getting rid of iterative attacks), but it's not as drastic as 4E was from 3E.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6915 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  13:02:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's starfinder? I gotta give them props, they saw that they were losing people back to D&D because their power levels were jumping the shark at the upper levels mathematically. 5e has a lot of flaws still, which could have been fixed had they put out material, but they chose to not do so. If Pathfinder 2e can become a new system that works, it could get money from me. Plus, if they're going to put out new base books to introduce people who HAVEN'T been following Golarion a whole lot, that will also get my bucks. A lot of the pathfinder concepts I find interesting (such as mythic ranks.... or basically an alternate form of leveling that you do at the same time as your regular leveling... which is something you see in most "modern" MMO's like EQ2 and warcraft... and yeah, laugh... I haven't played any MMO heavily since probably 2010).

What I would wonder is if D&D would be willing to license the rights to produce "rules" for say Forgotten Realms deities, etc... not say changing the LORE, but rather just making up whatever rules would be necessary to run a some kind of cleric of say Tempus, Mystra, Red Knight, etc... even if were just to say list out the gods, list things like "portfolios" and show what "standard toolkit options" are available for god X versus gods Y and Z. It could actually be a windfall for them, because they could focus on Lore and not mechanical crunch.... and that would be a decision of Hasbro and not necessarily WotC.


Oh, and I forget the "buzz word" that D&D was using for their reduction in how fast your numbering advanced by level (i.e. going from +1 to +20 in 20 levels to going from +2 to +6 in 20 levels). I hope they realize that was one of the big fixes for D&D, but I feel that D&D got a little TOO bounded mathematically. Going from +2 to say +8 maybe might allow for more flexibility. Also, the idea of having this "ability score adjustment" like every 4 levels and then tagging on an OPTIONAL feat system that replaced an ability score adjustment was a poor idea. The idea of ability scores and getting "advancements of choice to make your character different" should be part of the game. 5e's idea though of making feats a lot less focused but more broad is welcome, even if you get these options less often. For instance, someone should be able to get some kind of multi weapon fighting and do all kinds of options with two (or more) weapons. Similarly someone should be able to take some kind of heavy weapon fighting that takes two (or more) hands. Similarly, magic item creation should still require some kind of "feat", but it should be very broad... not one for wands, one for staves, one for rods, one for weapons.... instead one for all 4... maybe one for all sorts of clothing, gloves/gauntlets, helms, belts, and armor... then one for say any kind of jewelry or miscellaneous. Make some magic items "natural" to learn, like potions and scrolls. Then make some other choice for contingent / spell-triggered / spell storing / personal warding effects.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Mar 2018 13:18:21
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Scots Dragon
Seeker

17 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  13:41:28  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

What's starfinder?


It's a role-playing game put out by Paizo as a spin-off of Pathfinder with a focus on the science fantasy and space opera genres. It's set an untold number of millennia into the future of the Golarion setting and is basically D&D in space, but with more conventional advanced technology (that can be enchanted, mind) rather than the fantasy-spaceships approach of Spelljammer.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3126 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  02:30:25  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Anyone who knows Starfinder think it's decently compatible with Star Wars (with some modifications)?

-I started a campaign using the old Star Wars d20 system, because those are all the books I have. A lot of the rules feel kind of clunky, and I've been heavily homebrewing so much stuff. I was thinking about looking into the Saga rules, but it's all out of print and hard to find/super expensive. I saw there's some other, newer books (Age of Rebellion, Edge of the Empire, Force and Destiny), but they don't seem very campaign-y, as opposed to scenario-y, and I have no interest in supporting any kind of Disney-licensed Star Wars product.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1234 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  20:05:16  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I surmised about the rules changes I am looking forward to the new three actions economy system and active shielding.

Casting a spell with all three components takes all your turns three actions (verbal, material and somatic components would each take up an action), giving a great tangible spellcasting style to spells in combat. A shield spell is verbal only, but requires one action to hold up for an active bonus to defense (just like a regular shield needs an action to hold up in melee).

Also 10th level spells...


My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders

Edited by - Bladewind on 10 Mar 2018 20:09:13
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6915 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  22:41:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

From what I surmised about the rules changes I am looking forward to the new three actions economy system and active shielding.

Casting a spell with all three components takes all your turns three actions (verbal, material and somatic components would each take up an action), giving a great tangible spellcasting style to spells in combat. A shield spell is verbal only, but requires one action to hold up for an active bonus to defense (just like a regular shield needs an action to hold up in melee).

Also 10th level spells...





That's kind of fruity, because the shield spell in previous editions didn't require a free hand or guidance. It effectively acted almost like an animated shield.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15639 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  23:26:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It looks like they may be playing with some concepts I myself have toyed with over the years; the biggest - how to eliminate 'power creep' and still keep leveling fun. They mentioned playing with HP, which I always found to be the fundamental problem that leads to power-creep. Instead of making people have 'more health' (which is REALLY stupid past a certain point), they should just be harder and harder to damage. It also makes Criticals so much more important, since they can bypass all the level-spawned 'protections'. I'll have to see what they do before I decided if they are 'getting it right' (I am hoping some company someday creates what I picture as the 'perfect set of rules' - the ones I could create but am too lazy to).

What's interesting is their approach - whereas I felt that WotC was trying to make D&D more 'gamey' (and they went WAY overboard with 4e in that regard), Paizo is focusing more on Roleplaying, saying they are creating a lot of rules for 'downtime' - something which D&D players have mostly always been told to just ignore. As a person who original came from C&S (Chivalry & Sorcery) - a system who's 'downtime' was just as important - if not more-so - than your playing time - I think this might be a very good thing, and it will also keep WotC on their toes (if they start losing players to a more 'fluffy' approach).

EDIT:
Oh, and for GODS SAKES - I truly hope they call in Monte Cook as a consultant. I know he left the 4e design team about halfway through, and I can't help but feel its because they would only implement some of his ideas. Best thing I ever bought from his company - The Book of Experimental Might - HE is a guy who COULD create a perfect set of rules. He separated the spells into 20 levels, rather than the usual 9 levels - the spell levels and class levels ARE THE SAME! What? It only took someone 50 years to figure out how stupid it was to have wizards of one level gaining new spells of a completely different level? It makes EVERYTHING so much easier!

It seems there are some old D&D 'tropes' that just refuse to die. Like Charisma - they've respun it into a stat called 'presence' (or whatever) in other games, so it isn't even really Char. any more, but heaven-forfend someone touches the 'six sacred cows' of attributes. Just call it 'Presence' already! ('Inner Strength' might be closer, and some ki/Chi using games come close to simulating it). Charisma is just a very small outward manifestation of whats really going on there. Its the person who enters the room and has their own 'social gravity' (like Ed Greenwood). Edit: Its the stat that would be used to see if someone has the 'force of personality' to ascend to godhood - think of it like 'power level' in an anime).

And can we finally get a willpower stat, because then psionics becomes so much easier to incorporate?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Mar 2018 00:42:18
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3078 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  12:06:37  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

It seems there are some old D&D 'tropes' that just refuse to die. Like Charisma - they've respun it into a stat called 'presence' (or whatever) in other games, so it isn't even really Char. any more, but heaven-forfend someone touches the 'six sacred cows' of attributes. Just call it 'Presence' already! ('Inner Strength' might be closer, and some ki/Chi using games come close to simulating it). Charisma is just a very small outward manifestation of whats really going on there. Its the person who enters the room and has their own 'social gravity' (like Ed Greenwood). Edit: Its the stat that would be used to see if someone has the 'force of personality' to ascend to godhood - think of it like 'power level' in an anime).

And can we finally get a willpower stat, because then psionics becomes so much easier to incorporate?

I've always felt that the Will save should be based off Charisma (Force of personality) instead of Wisdom (Able to make good judgements).

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  01:01:56  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

It looks like they may be playing with some concepts I myself have toyed with over the years; the biggest - how to eliminate 'power creep' and still keep leveling fun. They mentioned playing with HP, which I always found to be the fundamental problem that leads to power-creep. Instead of making people have 'more health' (which is REALLY stupid past a certain point), they should just be harder and harder to damage. It also makes Criticals so much more important, since they can bypass all the level-spawned 'protections'. I'll have to see what they do before I decided if they are 'getting it right' (I am hoping some company someday creates what I picture as the 'perfect set of rules' - the ones I could create but am too lazy to).


Well that would lead one to believe that HP = Meat and no version of D&D has this ever been the case. The HP inflation is meant to describe someone's ability to turn serious blows into minimal ones. Further it's far more about the description of the loss of HP that's important vs. the meta of the concept. If I have 87 hp and the DM describes a sword blow I take that deals 11 damage as a stab through my bicep....well now that pretty much ruins verisimilitude.

If they go "any" route, I really hope it's the Wound/Vitality system in Unearthed Arcana/Star Wars: Saga. It keeps vitality important but doesn't undercut how dangerous critical hits are.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What's interesting is their approach - whereas I felt that WotC was trying to make D&D more 'gamey' (and they went WAY overboard with 4e in that regard), Paizo is focusing more on Roleplaying, saying they are creating a lot of rules for 'downtime' - something which D&D players have mostly always been told to just ignore. As a person who original came from C&S (Chivalry & Sorcery) - a system who's 'downtime' was just as important - if not more-so - than your playing time - I think this might be a very good thing, and it will also keep WotC on their toes (if they start losing players to a more 'fluffy' approach).


Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 123 - Chapter 2: Downtime Revisited (detailes in about 10 pages of stuff you can do in your down time).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


EDIT:
Oh, and for GODS SAKES - I truly hope they call in Monte Cook as a consultant. I know he left the 4e design team about halfway through, and I can't help but feel its because they would only implement some of his ideas. Best thing I ever bought from his company - The Book of Experimental Might - HE is a guy who COULD create a perfect set of rules. He separated the spells into 20 levels, rather than the usual 9 levels - the spell levels and class levels ARE THE SAME! What? It only took someone 50 years to figure out how stupid it was to have wizards of one level gaining new spells of a completely different level? It makes EVERYTHING so much easier!


I like Monte, as he's been very influential in the gaming community but as a game designer.....eh I dunno. He was one of the chief engineers of "trap options" as a positive thing in D&D, forcing System Mastery for those who put more time in. Maybe he's changed quite a bit since then, I haven't played much of his homebrew setting/rules but in regards to 3rd Edition, there's a LOT wrong with that design direction.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

It seems there are some old D&D 'tropes' that just refuse to die. Like Charisma - they've respun it into a stat called 'presence' (or whatever) in other games, so it isn't even really Char. any more, but heaven-forfend someone touches the 'six sacred cows' of attributes. Just call it 'Presence' already! ('Inner Strength' might be closer, and some ki/Chi using games come close to simulating it). Charisma is just a very small outward manifestation of whats really going on there. Its the person who enters the room and has their own 'social gravity' (like Ed Greenwood). Edit: Its the stat that would be used to see if someone has the 'force of personality' to ascend to godhood - think of it like 'power level' in an anime).

And can we finally get a willpower stat, because then psionics becomes so much easier to incorporate?



Toying with "sacred cows" is something that should not be taken lightly. Speaking as someone who LOVES (seriously, I get delight in watching it) the slaughtering of Sacred Cows, I hope Pathfinder 2.0 makes decisions wisely. 4th Edition slaughtered a...LOT....of sacred Cows and it's one of the many reasons people outright rejected it. I love that it's different, I love that it's a different take and something unlike what's come before (mostly because i don't buy re-hashed stuff simply because it's newer) but Pathfinder doesn't want to alienate too many fans in this regard.

Here's what I'd love to see for a 2.0
• Better balance across all levels. Do we 'really' need spellcasters with four to five 9th level spells a day? No, no we don't.

• Remove Iterative Attack penalties. For one, it's dumb on a narrative level. Two, it's punitive to weapon-based classes. Three, it causes unnecessary math and/or requires multiple die OR takes longer to compute the math at the table. No No NO. IF they want to penalize multiple attacks per turn, simply make the second or third attack be a static number you have to match on the d20. SO for example a Fighter makes his 1st attack with a +7 to the d20 roll. His second attack he needs to roll above an 11 on the d20 (no need to compare attack to AC) and the third attack he needs to roll a 16 or better. OR just make all attacks the same and apply one penalty (i'd say -2) across the board. So the same Fighter gets a +7 to his attack, if he multi-attacks he'll make those attacks a +5/+5/+5. Done.

• Retool saves so that one failed save doesn't = boredom for the rest of the battle. I don't know how many times a player fails a save and then basically tunes out because on his turn, he's (insert status effect here) and goes back to his phone. It's boring.

• Make at-will/Cantrips scale with level.

• Make Fighters ACTUALLY useful. PF had taken good strides with the Fighter but it wasn't till about four dozen options that it sort of comes close to casters and that still falls short at 12th + level. In 4e and 5e Fighters actually feel like they're awesome again.

• And for God's SAKES give Rogues and Monks full BAB.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2960 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  02:19:15  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did like Saga Edition's Condition Track. You could die and still have over half of your Hit Points. All it took was a couple of big hits. Some of the builds on the Saga Boards on the WotC Forums were crazy.

Funny thing, after looking at 5E and Pathfinder and hearing about the new Edition of Pathfinder, I have decided to go OLD SCHOOL. Back to 0e(Swords and Wizardry) or 1e(AD&D). I have the OGB and FR 1 through FR6(And the Volo Guides). TBH what more do I need.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  04:55:06  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

I did like Saga Edition's Condition Track. You could die and still have over half of your Hit Points. All it took was a couple of big hits. Some of the builds on the Saga Boards on the WotC Forums were crazy.

Funny thing, after looking at 5E and Pathfinder and hearing about the new Edition of Pathfinder, I have decided to go OLD SCHOOL. Back to 0e(Swords and Wizardry) or 1e(AD&D). I have the OGB and FR 1 through FR6(And the Volo Guides). TBH what more do I need.



In my attempt to learn more about D&D of days gone by I picked up the DMG, Monster Manual, and PHB for 1st edition. Lets just say that I was mostly confused in reading it, especially the combat section, initiative, etc. and how the to-hit tables worked.

I have some 1e adventures (Horror on the Hill, White Mountain, Sinister secrets of Saltmarsh series, Four from Cormyr, etc) and they look fun so I think I'm just going to convert it to 5th Edition lol

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6915 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  12:05:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diffan,

I'd throw in a few other things which kind of "ding" with yours.

The trope of level 20 being the ultimate level should be thrown out. Make the ultimate level 40, but then NEVER present an NPC who is higher than say 33 or 34 and describe these individuals as pretty much awe inducing. Beings like the crčme de la crčme of fiendish powers and lesser deities should fall out in the upper levels of these ranges for rough scale, but they shouldn't be created with these rules.

Keep the Pathfinder concept of Mythic leveling, but work on the concept more.

I agree on the multiple upper level spells thing. The spell progression should roughly follow 5e's spell progression up to level 20, and from 20 to 30 is when those multiples of high level spells should happen. The introduction of some kind of Epic/High Magic should be hinted at in the early release, with notes that this will be developed later to DM's and some general notes on the concept. Players shouldn't need this necessarily at the outset, and this allows some playtime beyond the beta for feedback. For that matter, they should follow 5e's standard for multi-classing to a degree when it comes to spellcasting. Basically, you don't get spell slots from multiple classes, but rather a set of spell slots to share between classes, and you instead prepare spells from available classes. However, where 5e fails is they don't allow you to truly "theurge" where you'd have spells prepared from multiple spellcaster classes both advancing (and you don't need them both to go to max spell level, but one should be capable of it, and then you should be able to get another class to 5th or 6th level). Also, multi-classing shouldn't matter whether you're doing wizard/cleric, wizard/sorcerer, cleric/druid, etc.... especially if you're still getting the same number of spell slots.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  13:47:03  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hm, I'm not sure fans of Pathfinder would be cool with a higher level ceiling to achieve to. Looking at the common PF player, one who's accustomed to the levels of power and crazy manipulation of cosmic forces, I feel that it would just be another bench mark for those to aspire to vs. plain ol 20th level with some Epic levels thrown in. Me personally, I'm fine with that idea! I wish they continued 4th Edition's trend of Tiers from 1-10 (heroic) / 11-20 (paragon) / 21-30 (Epic) and it was awesome.

I'm not too up to date with the Mythic parts of Pathfinder. My only character in PF (rogue/stalker/shadow dancer) has 1 level of Mythic in which he has some nifty abilities but we haven't delved too deeply into that part.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3126 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  23:05:43  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Vitality/Wounds the worst, but only because Star Wars tied Force abilities to Vitality, basically hamstringing Force users. Yeah, they can't be gods and goddesses while everyone else are just basic archetypes, but it limits players way too much, especially at lower levels. I had to basically homebrew divorcing the Force from vitality (and Force powers tied to skill points) in order to make lower levels of the system workable.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 13 Mar 2018 23:06:21
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Diffan
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USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  01:31:05  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Vitality/Wounds the worst, but only because Star Wars tied Force abilities to Vitality, basically hamstringing Force users. Yeah, they can't be gods and goddesses while everyone else are just basic archetypes, but it limits players way too much, especially at lower levels. I had to basically homebrew divorcing the Force from vitality (and Force powers tied to skill points) in order to make lower levels of the system workable.



Hmm, my experience with Star Wars (both d20 and Saga) are limited and when we played I was a Soldier class in the Knights of the Old Republic era so I don't remember how much of the Force worked. That being said I doubt they'd tie spells or spellcasting into using Vitality/Wounds for their system, it's too "un-D&D like" to gain any sort of traction.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
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USA
3477 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  01:36:19  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some previews of their design process:
Playtest Design
Alchemist Class Preview
Fighter Class Preview
Rogue Class Preview

I've only read the overall playtest and Fighter reviews and.....*sigh* I'm just not impressed at all.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 12 Apr 2018 01:38:05
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Diffan
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  02:12:59  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Concepts that I've read and liked:

"In a group of four exploring a dungeon, two characters might have their weapons ready, keeping an eye out for danger. Another might be skulking ahead, keeping to the shadows, while the fourth is looking for magic. If combat begins, the first two begin with their weapons drawn, ready for a fight, and they roll Perception for their initiative. The skulking character rolls Stealth for initiative, giving them a chance to hide before the fight even begins. The final adventurer rolls Perception for initiative, but also gains some insight as to whether or not there is magic in the room."

Pretty cool. Makes certain skills applicable to other aspects of the game. Stealth giving someone a jump in on the action vs. just perceiving a threat right before it occurs is pretty cool. Or using a spell like Detect Magic to sense magical effects or things in a room before the fight (like traps?). Anyways, I think this is a fun idea.

"Gone are different types of actions, which can slow down play and add confusion at the table. Instead, most things, like moving, attacking, or drawing a weapon, take just one action, meaning that you can attack more than once in a single turn! Each attack after the first takes a penalty, but you still have a chance to score a hit. In Pathfinder Second Edition, most spells take two actions to cast, but there are some that take only one. Magic missile, for example, can be cast using from one to three actions, giving you an additional missile for each action you spend on casting it!"

Breaking away from 7 different action types to just 3 is a huge leap forward. No one wants to eek out EVERY single action on their (and others) turns and it slows down play considerably. Keeping things neat and clean is certainly the way to go!

But.....then they drop a big bad dumb decision here - attack penalties. *ugh* Seriously I was HOPING we were done with these. Nothing bogs down combat more than rolling 3 d20's then trying to figure out which one the -2 , -4 , -6 etc applies to. It's dumb, overly penalizing to weapon-based classes, and has zero narrative reasoning behind it. This decision seriously makes me even consider playing the game it's THAT bad.

Next there's multiple action-casting. Like the description says, most spells take components and somatic/verbal aspects to cast which implies that you spend an action using that and then another to cast a spell. You use up your move (ala Full-Round Action) and you get an additional effect. Pretty nifty and makes hiding behind cover or being stationary a more appealing tactic.

In another blog (All about Actions) they talk about using your Reaction to raise your shield (getting your should bonus to AC, etc) because you raised it and having so many of them per round/encounter to do. Which, while tactically intriguing, is ultimately just cutting into things warriors previously just assumed were things they could do.


The Fighter preview is even more disappointing.

First up - AoOs (attacks of opportunity) is a class feature they get because they're warriors, which other classes don't get this until later or at all. Not only is this "meh" but it's made with a -2 penalty. *sigh* So they're going to punish Fighters at doing what they're naturally designed to do? Ok - dumb.

Weapon Mastery at 3rd level with a weapon group. Ok what we learned from 3e/PF is that while a step up from specific weapon specialization, whole weapon groups still isn't the answer. This was fixed with 4th Edition -sorta- AND 5th Edition. Maybe their designers should try playing them and see what I mean. Weapon "Properties" are far more important than the type of weapon used. But maybe I'm just over pessimistic and they'll group things more easier (Bludgeoning, Piercing, slashing instead of a HUGE list of weapons under "heavy blades").

"As mentioned in the blog last week, the real meat behind the classes is in their feats and (as of this post), the fighter has the largest selection of feats out of all the classes in the game! Let's take a look at some."

-AH yes, FEATS is the answer! (not). I'm going to assume they're keeping Exception-based design (meaning you can do stuff but at such a ridiculous penalty that it's basically moronic to attempt) and Feats make it easier to do. So more design flaws of 3.5/PF leaking into the system that I don't really know where to begin.

Feats suggested:

"Sudden Charge. You can pick up this feat at 1st level. When you spend two actions on it, this feat allows you to move up to twice your speed and deliver a single strike. There's no need to move in a straight line and no AC penalty—you just move and attack! This feat lets the fighter jump right into the thick of things and make an immediate impact."

You know, Fighters in 4th Edition AND 5th Edition can effectively do this without any widgets. Hells ANY class can do this in 4e/5e without a feat. Why is this a "good" feature?

"Next let's take a look at Power Attack. This feat allows you to spend two actions to make a single strike that deals an extra die of damage. Instead of trading accuracy for damage (as it used to work), you now trade out an action you could have used for a far less accurate attack to get more power on a roll that is more likely to hit."

Why would ANYONE attempt a second attack (at a penalty) when you can make the first one (with a good bonus) do more damage?

"We've talked before about how fun and tactical shields are in the game. To recap, you take an action to raise your shield and get its Armor Class and touch Armor Class bonuses, and then you can block incoming damage with a reaction while the shield is raised. At 6th level, fighters can take the feat Shield Warden, which allows them to use their shield to block the damage taken by an adjacent ally. At 8th, they can even get an extra reaction each turn, just to use shield block one additional time. (And yes, they can spend this extra reaction on another use of Shield Warden.) At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves."

Again, all of this is done without special effects in other editions. Why is drawing a weapon and attacking a person in a turn 1 action and simply moving your arm 6" a whole different action? Maybe a class or 3 in Physiology is in order??




I'm just woefully unimpressed and completely flabbergasted about why they think these are good? The reason why 5E is beating the crap out of Paizo in sales is because 5E provides a great system without dumb penalties, without constant shifting of mechanics, because the math is light and simple, and because concepts are reinforced instead of requiring system mastery to fully explore.

I'm still going to try it and read it but I don't see how any of this is even goign to come close to what other system already provide?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 12 Apr 2018 02:18:52
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  02:31:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do have to ask one question based on what you just stated "The reason why 5E is beating the crap out of Paizo in sales"..... is it? I mean I like 5e over pathfinder now, but 5e isn't releasing anything. In essence, I've just stopped spending. I buy a few things on dmsguild every once in a while, and about every 4 months WotC releases something for me to buy.... but I used to buy at least 3 products a month (between game books and novels), and was getting both dragon and dungeon magazine. They quit producing dragon and dungeon magazine, so that's out too. For the last year, I've actually found myself researching things from previous editions more than anything.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  06:33:57  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I do have to ask one question based on what you just stated "The reason why 5E is beating the crap out of Paizo in sales"..... is it? I mean I like 5e over pathfinder now, but 5e isn't releasing anything. In essence, I've just stopped spending. I buy a few things on dmsguild every once in a while, and about every 4 months WotC releases something for me to buy.... but I used to buy at least 3 products a month (between game books and novels), and was getting both dragon and dungeon magazine. They quit producing dragon and dungeon magazine, so that's out too. For the last year, I've actually found myself researching things from previous editions more than anything.



ICv2 sales - as of Fall 2017 - put WotC as #1, StarFinder at #2, Pathfinder at #3.

Amazon best sellers list the top 7 products as D&D 5e books and supplements and 8 of the top 10. Pathfinder comes in at #24.

Now of course these aren't great definitive numbers but its about the best objectionable data we can go by without either company saying "We're #1!"

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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