Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Chosen of Mystra - 5e - Main ability you'd give?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2017 :  23:40:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

You're right, sleyvas. Eight-pointed stars, not eight stars. They still might represent eight cardinal schools of magic.



Yep, I agree there. I wonder if the nine stars might not represent the "bear" that held Mystra's essence and then the Simbul? If so, though, that would imply something about the earlier seven stars. Hmmm, might be taking it a bit far.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  02:53:11  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
umm.. the scag one has 8 not 9

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  04:38:28  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could all Chosen could wield silverfire AND spellfire? Or just some (like Elminster)? Never liked that, personally, just automatically adding every "new" kind of magic and every "new" magical advantage to Mystra's Chosen because (duh!) they're magically powerful - and doubly so for Elminster in particular, lol, because (duh!) he's Elminster.

But more seriously, I think there's a lot of individual variance among Mystra's Chosen. As in the powers granted to them follow a template to a lesser degree because each one would receive/possess something unique and distinctive. Larloch and Storm and Elminster may have the usual silverfire and spell immunities and ageless/sleepless vitality but that's about it; each would then have some other powers possessed by no other, call it a "personal" gift from Mystra.

I recall that spellfire could be blocked by a few magics like wall of force and sphere of annihilation types of effects. Yet it could penetrate/ignore almost all other magics, including prismatic barriers. Does silverfire have similar limitations vs specific magics?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31591 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  05:20:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Ed:

quote:
Elminster figured out how to manipulate the Weave to call forth spellfire. Any of the Chosen who became sufficiently attuned to the Weave (by using it for centuries), and took the time to experiment and study, could theoretically duplicate what Elminster did, and end up with spellfire too. Several of them (no, Iím NOT going to reveal which ones) already have. Such Chosen can avoid being blown apart by balancing Weave energies around themselves (and so teleport AND have spellfire). However, itís important to remember that just because a Chosen of Mystra CAN figure out how to do something, it doesnít mean they will ever have time or inclination to do so. Most of the Chosen are like very, very busy house painters: they COULD learn to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but theyíre REALLY busy with all of these other projects, over here, that are far more pressing and interesting - - and then this crisis hits, and that one . . . and so the centuries pass . . .


I also seem to recall -- though I don't have a quote handy -- that what Elminster could do and what Shandril could do were very different. I want to say he had the blasty option and not much else, where Shandril had the absorption and healing and all that. El didn't have the natural ability with spellfire that Shandril had, it was an acquired and lesser skill for him.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  06:00:46  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shandril developed her spellfire throughout the novels, starting up as a uncontrollable random blaster, ending up mastering the "crown of fire" and more.

Perhaps Elminster's (many) other magical abilities interfere with and impede the process of learning how to master spellfire. A sort of constant "background noise" Shandril never had to overcome.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  06:01:58  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This thread made me think of a couple questions I've been wondering about for a while.

First, are there other weave-ghosts than those of the seven sisters who died? Vangerdahast maybe? I feel like I remember reading about some, but I can't recall who they might be.

Second, did we ever learn anything more about "why a bear?" for holding Mystra's rebirth for 5E, at least until the Simbul joined her? I remember speculating with my brother and mom that bears were often shamanistic, which is an early type of magic (maybe the early Netherese had shamans before they interacted with the elves or the sarrukh, and they were bear-spirit shamans?). IDK, just totally guessing on my part. Or is it just one of those great unspoken riddles of the Realms?

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  06:12:19  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.

But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  06:19:05  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.

But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen?


Hm, I don't know if that answers it or just adds more questions.

But thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that thread.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  10:13:11  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

This thread made me think of a couple questions I've been wondering about for a while.

First, are there other weave-ghosts than those of the seven sisters who died? Vangerdahast maybe? I feel like I remember reading about some, but I can't recall who they might be.

Second, did we ever learn anything more about "why a bear?" for holding Mystra's rebirth for 5E, at least until the Simbul joined her? I remember speculating with my brother and mom that bears were often shamanistic, which is an early type of magic (maybe the early Netherese had shamans before they interacted with the elves or the sarrukh, and they were bear-spirit shamans?). IDK, just totally guessing on my part. Or is it just one of those great unspoken riddles of the Realms?



Vangey isnt dead. he has some plot armor too

I do think some of the shades are ghosts in the weave

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234

Edited by - sfdragon on 24 Sep 2017 10:15:35
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  13:28:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

umm.. the scag one has 8 not 9



No, in the SCAG, this is the text for her holy symbol, not the picture

Circle of seven stars, nine stars encircling a flowing red mist, or a single star

Which I'm reading as 3 different possible holy symbols.... and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that all of these stars are the ones with the 8 points and the circle.

Circle of seven stars
nine stars encircling a flowing red mist
a single star

I thought the same way when I first red sfdragon's post, only to realize he was looking at one thing, I was looking at another, and he was talking about the number of points on a single star and I was talking about the number of stars themselves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  13:34:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Could all Chosen could wield silverfire AND spellfire? Or just some (like Elminster)? Never liked that, personally, just automatically adding every "new" kind of magic and every "new" magical advantage to Mystra's Chosen because (duh!) they're magically powerful - and doubly so for Elminster in particular, lol, because (duh!) he's Elminster.

But more seriously, I think there's a lot of individual variance among Mystra's Chosen. As in the powers granted to them follow a template to a lesser degree because each one would receive/possess something unique and distinctive. Larloch and Storm and Elminster may have the usual silverfire and spell immunities and ageless/sleepless vitality but that's about it; each would then have some other powers possessed by no other, call it a "personal" gift from Mystra.

I recall that spellfire could be blocked by a few magics like wall of force and sphere of annihilation types of effects. Yet it could penetrate/ignore almost all other magics, including prismatic barriers. Does silverfire have similar limitations vs specific magics?



Yeah, I would like to kind of create a template that works for her chosen and gives them versatility without raw power (guess I should have stated that the point of this thread was somewhat to tone down the chosen). Thus, I'd include silver fire, because its well documented. However, spellfire... no... But, I find the few extra concentration slots to be a source of immense versatility.

Some basic other things I'm thinking we might want to include is the ability to "interpret all forms of magical formulae and encryption, including but not limited to Southern Magic and elven High Magic, even if they don't qualify to duplicate the effects". I don't find that overwhelming.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2987 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  13:39:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

speaking of Mystra, who do you think her replacement will be?

Elminster did tell Laeral and alustrial that one of the 7 were going to replace her



According to what Ed said, the new Mystra doesn't seem to be any of the 7. She's a new goddess, but encloses within herself the meories, experiences, and/or consciousness of her previous iterations. In addition to that she also has access to the "Voices in the Weave", who are those among the sisters whose physical form is no more, and many poweful arcanists who are no longer alive.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  13:41:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'd thought an answer to the "why a bear?" question had already been determined, as best as possible.

But what BEARing could it have on the powers of Mystra's Chosen?



Wow, totally forgot I started that thread. So, now I'm wondering was that bear Selune or Lurue.... it technically could have been an avatar of either.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2987 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2017 :  13:45:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

This thread made me think of a couple questions I've been wondering about for a while.

First, are there other weave-ghosts than those of the seven sisters who died? Vangerdahast maybe? I feel like I remember reading about some, but I can't recall who they might be.


Some of the princes of Shade should be among them, IIRC.

quote:
Second, did we ever learn anything more about "why a bear?" for holding Mystra's rebirth for 5E, at least until the Simbul joined her? I remember speculating with my brother and mom that bears were often shamanistic, which is an early type of magic (maybe the early Netherese had shamans before they interacted with the elves or the sarrukh, and they were bear-spirit shamans?). IDK, just totally guessing on my part. Or is it just one of those great unspoken riddles of the Realms?



Deities hiding in animals doesn't seem to be exclusive to Mystra. Helm was hiding in a goat, for example. If we're going to use Occam's Razor, then the most immediate answer is that it could be a way like another to safely hide from unwanted attention, and that the chosen animals don't necessarily have any particular meaning. They might even simply be the closest thing where the "wounded" deity could find a refuge. However, being this the Realms, there might very well be some hidden meaning behind all this.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 24 Sep 2017 13:46:05
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  00:37:07  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

speaking of Mystra, who do you think her replacement will be?

Elminster did tell Laeral and alustrial that one of the 7 were going to replace her



According to what Ed said, the new Mystra doesn't seem to be any of the 7. She's a new goddess, but encloses within herself the meories, experiences, and/or consciousness of her previous iterations. In addition to that she also has access to the "Voices in the Weave", who are those among the sisters whose physical form is no more, and many poweful arcanists who are no longer alive.



not what I was saying

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  07:24:42  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7509 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  12:57:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Should access to some portion of Mystra's godlike experience, knowledge, or memories be granted to her Chosen as needed? She might always communicate this knowledge through visions and other interactions ... but why not simply "grant" it (implant it within their minds) directly, as one of their "special gifts"?



I like this idea. It fits the concept and isn't necessarily overwhelming. So maybe a bonus to any knowledge skill rolls with the bonus getting smaller the farther back in history one goes? Like +3 for anything in the past two centuries, +2 between two centuries and past millennia, +1 between last millennia and the preceding 5 millennia. Beyond that, instead of a bonus, the DM comes up with flashes of imagery that he just says to the player, and if that gives them help, great.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  16:36:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol some of Mystra's Chosen are player characters?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  17:23:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

You're right, sleyvas. Eight-pointed stars, not eight stars. They still might represent eight cardinal schools of magic.
In the book Guide to Hell, it is suggested there is one layer for each school of magic, the Ninth being the Bardic School.

Whats interesting is that I am now reading the Haunted Lands trilogy, and in that, Bardic Magic seems to unaffected by the Spellplague (or maybe just barely - its not even noticeable). That would indicate that Bardic Magic is indeed some separate, perhaps 'more ancient' form of magic: I personally connect it to the Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord PrC's, 'True Name' magic, Fey Magic {the written form - Hamafae}, and the Rune Magic of the Giants and Dwarves. Its part of the 'language primeval' that was spoken in the First world, which itself is a debased form of the mental 'Language of the Gods' (The Dark Tongue would be a corrupted form).

So basically - if you've followed my other musings - all part of 'Raw Magic'. That stuff that divine and semi-divine beings used to be able to throw around willy-nilly, before the Dawnwar and the shattering of the True World.

Thus, Mystra should not have the Ninth school in her repertoire - it is 'above and beyond' The Weave (although she herself may use it, and certain 'gifted' mortals - it would be Silver/Spellfire). Also, if we connect Necromancy to shadow, she may not have that in the 1e/2e/3e time period either (because Shar's Shadoweave probably rose to prominence with the death of Mystryl)*. Although thats a tough call, because 'shadow' is actually connected to illusion. Its a shaky theory, but it could help explain the changing number of stars.

The Compass Rose I now use for all my maps has SEVEN stars, and shall always remain so. That is how Ed intended it.



*The main problem with this is that we've never actually seen any real difference betweent eh spells an arcane caster can cat, and one using the Shadoweave, aside from some odd abilities Troy Denning gave his characters in the RotAW. In Haunted Lands Szass Tam even specifically tries to use the Shadoweave (which he states is NOT his normal way of casting) when he can no longer access The Weave (he knew of it, and how to use... he just chose not to). However, he found it was even 'more gone' than The weave was (no trace of it).

Of course, The Weave (and Shadoweave) have waffled all over the place lore-wise, so who knows.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Sep 2017 17:30:03
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  18:38:43  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra should not have psionics within her portfolios, either. Psionics are internally powered and seems very un-Weave-like. But (when psionics is discussed at all) it is usually stated that she does.

Bards can worship pretty much any deity they like, but they're generally associated with Milil or Oghma, not Mystra. I don't recall any examples of bardic magic during the Avatar Crisis or other such Mystra-died-Weave-disrupted events.

If anything, I'd think wild magic would be a suitable ninth school, not bardic magic. Bards have their own magical ways, but in general they're just artsy dabblers who practice proper magic at lesser level and competence than wizard/priest counterparts.

And remember that Guide to Hell is wonderfully inconsistent with other Planeslore and Realmslore. A "Bardic School" not dependent on Mystra's Weave, taken from this book, would be just as valid as Jazirian/Asmodeus possessing ultimate power over the entire cosmos (and over all the gods or overgods of places like the Realms in it).

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31591 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  20:48:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Mystra should not have psionics within her portfolios, either. Psionics are internally powered and seems very un-Weave-like. But (when psionics is discussed at all) it is usually stated that she does.



Auppenser is the god of psionics. Mystryl put him to sleep to keep him from dying off entirely.

Psionics in the Realms has been handled as if it is magic powered by a personal, one-person Weave. That's how it was in 3E; I don't know if it was addressed in later versions... I like psionics a lot, but aside from Dark Sun, psionics has always never been properly integrated into D&D -- it's always a rough bolt-on.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2218 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2017 :  23:20:08  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
9 should be sorcery not bardic

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31591 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  03:34:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

9 should be sorcery not bardic



Sorcery isn't a school, though -- it's a different way of casting the same spells.

And I'm weak on bards, but I'm fairly certain they're casting the same spells, too, though also in a different way.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6697 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  04:27:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3528 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2017 :  04:52:36  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Are 4E-style warlock pacts based on Weave magic? Pacts with fiends or fey or elementals or whatever, creatures (and magical powers) from somewhere beyond the Realms. Do they need to involve Mystra or the Weave at all?



Depends, is this post-Spellplague or post-Sundering? Spellplague-era no, its not Weave based. Sundering-era, I'd assume it would be similar to Divine magic

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000