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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2017 : 06:27:14
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To be fair, Dendar and Jormungandr have no real similarities. She's closer to Apep or Nidhogg than ol' Jormy, who's probably either stuck on the primary world of the Norse pantheon or otherwise in some aquatic plane.
Apep probably shouldn't be a demigod either; he's a cosmic horror that goes toe-to-toe with Set and is capable of killing Ra. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2017 : 10:29:54
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Dendar does (imperfectly but rather obviously) resemble Nidhogg. Nidhogg was only one of eight named serpents gnawing at the roots of the cosmos, Dendar could perhaps be an unnamed ninth sibling in the brood (one unseen in the nine worlds of Norse mythology but present in other worlds touched by the Yggdrasil world tree).
I don't see any resemblance to Apophis. He was sometimes described as a serpent deity. But serpent (and dual-serpent and dragon) deities were a common archetype and he otherwise has nothing in common with Dendar.
And why do you say Jormungand? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Oct 2017 12:49:25 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 04:43:44
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I've generally seen Jormy being touted as being similar to Dendar, probably due to the Kezef = Fenrir connection/World Serpent mythos. Apep for the whole "end of the world" thing that's sometime in her legend.
Dendar being Nidhogg's sibling or child probably fits more. Creepy armageddon dragon has creepy nightmare snake for a kid. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 06:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Bane - at least, FR-Bane - is a half-orc. Core Bane doesn't appear to be, but if ours is the original (and I don't see why he couldn't be... since in reality, HE IS), it could just be that he has taken on a 'more polished look' for other worlds.
Bane being a half-orc slavemaster is entirely a work of 3.5e's artists. His 2e avatar was a human that turned demonic when angry or anticipating battle, and his actual religious art portrays him as a shadowy, robed figure with only his gauntlet figured prominently.
Iyachtu Xvim, on the other hand...
Well, if we bend the timeline just a tad, we could always say Xvim was a half-orc, and the art we see depicted that way represents the 'new' Bane that erupted from Xvim's body (so basically, those are pics of Xvim, but he became Bane, so its Bane...)
Bane 'turning demonic' when angry is kinda cool; we can run with that. What if Bane was a Tiefling (or Cambion, etc)? That would put him on-par with GH's Iuz (except Iuz just stayed a demi-power). If we wanted to keep the 'orc' thing he may have even been a Tanarukk (and since of the 'Dark Three', he is the one most likely to have actually arisen in the Moonsea - or maybe Vastar - region, that does make some sense, since those 'empires' seem to have been run by uber-orcs of some kind).
And mentioning that group made me think about Bhal, who's origins are shrouded in even deeper mystery. So while trying to find some sort of connections to assassins somewhere within the Old Empires, I of course thought about Kali, especially now that I am considering linking the proto-Imaskari to that ethnic group {Ang/Mar} now, rather than the Durpari one (which probably migrated up from Zakhara). So I was reading through her entry in Wikipedia, and not only did I find some very interesting parallels between her and some of my own homebrew Overcosmology, but I also came across a few things that made me think of another popular D&D goddess... and sometimes demon. Multi-limbed? Check. Red eyes? Check. Bad attitude? Check. 'Drinker of Blood'? Well, that depends if you want to say Lolth = Lilith (who's linked to vampires - in fact, she is supposedly both the first demon AND the first vampire).
And I've had a theory for a while not that Lolth is Graz'zt's sister, which makes Pale Night her mother... and Kali is also called 'Black Night'. Heck, they even got the same last name. 
I need ZeromaruX to help me with finding some Dawn War stuff - where would most of that info be located? There was a very cool discussion awhile back where a whole bunch of interesting details came to light - I think it pertained to the 'God of humans', and who that might be. There were a few new names/terms I hadn't heard before, and one of them would have made an ideal replacement for my version of 'Ymir' (The Prime Material, Uranus, 'The Firmament', Shiva, etc). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2017 16:20:48 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 07:50:17
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I never really liked the whole notion of "turning demonic".
It's the whole trope from superheroes/comics, anime/manga, Power Rangers, Buffy/Angel, etc. The character has two different "modes". There's "Normal Mode" for day-to-day business and social purposes. And, after speaking the magical command word, invoking the secret power, activating the artifact, finding a phone booth, etc, there's "Power Mode" or "Ugly Mode" for when it's time to kick some serious butt.
Back in Olden Times, characters only had one "mode". Their good/evil sides were usually obvious, this guy is hero and that guy is villain, but plenty of subtle explorations to subvert the obvious assumptions were viable. Usually if a character transformed into a monstrous evil appearance it was because he was in fact being violated, possessed, or controlled by a monstrously evil (and entirely different) character. Characters couldn't gain their special powers by somehow donning a fancy costume or semi-voluntarily toggling their "other side" under appropriate conditions. They were intrinsically what they were - all the time - and their appearances/powers weren't divided across two distinct character sheets. I feel that a character can be more heroic/villainous if he maintains a thoroughly consistent heroic/villainous identity, none of this wiffle-waffle comic/anime/television contrivance to explicitly and conveniently display the inner nature as an outer facade.
I'd thought Bane (as a mortal) was very definitely human? Being a tiefling/cambion would fit his character and background, and would make sense, but still it was written as human. It might even be argued that a "pure human" ancestry would be a requirement for ascendancy to deific status within a "pure human" pantheon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Oct 2017 10:32:50 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 12:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I've generally seen Jormy being touted as being similar to Dendar, probably due to the Kezef = Fenrir connection/World Serpent mythos. Apep for the whole "end of the world" thing that's sometime in her legend.
Dendar being Nidhogg's sibling or child probably fits more. Creepy armageddon dragon has creepy nightmare snake for a kid.
Powers and Pantheons states "To the ancient Rus, Dendar was known as Nidhogg, the serpent who gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil" as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 14:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I never really liked the whole notion of "turning demonic".
It's the whole trope from superheroes/comics, anime/manga, Power Rangers, Buffy/Angel, etc. The character has two different "modes". There's "Normal Mode" for day-to-day business and social purposes. And, after speaking the magical command word, invoking the secret power, activating the artifact, finding a phone booth, etc, there's "Power Mode" or "Ugly Mode" for when it's time to kick some serious butt.
Back in Olden Times, characters only had one "mode". Their good/evil sides were usually obvious, this guy is hero and that guy is villain, but plenty of subtle explorations to subvert the obvious assumptions were viable. Usually if a character transformed into a monstrous evil appearance it was because he was in fact being violated, possessed, or controlled by a monstrously evil (and entirely different) character. Characters couldn't gain their special powers by somehow donning a fancy costume or semi-voluntarily toggling their "other side" under appropriate conditions. They were intrinsically what they were - all the time - and their appearances/powers weren't divided across two distinct character sheets. I feel that a character can be more heroic/villainous if he maintains a thoroughly consistent heroic/villainous identity, none of this wiffle-waffle comic/anime/television contrivance to explicitly and conveniently display the inner nature as an outer facade.
I'd thought Bane (as a mortal) was very definitely human? Being a tiefling/cambion would fit his character and background, and would make sense, but still it was written as human. It might even be argued that a "pure human" ancestry would be a requirement for ascendancy to deific status within a "pure human" pantheon.
This idea makes me wonder about something. Are there any really powerful magic items in 5e that a basically normal person might accidentally come across (say a powerful NPC, fleeing a fight, ports into his hidden cave sanctuary, only to bleed out) that would essentially turn them into something akin to a minor super hero? Later, some normal person comes across these items in the cave... and decides he can change the world. I'm literally talking the concept of making "Joe the Grocer" into an "avenging superhero" against small time crime overnight... but making it extremely campy.
Just to throw out the concept... you could do a lot of things with lesser versions of some well known magic items, so that if the party gets their hands on them they're not overwhelming. It could be done even more with one-shot items like dust of disappearance, but the idea here would be a "hero" that's not dependent on some finite resource.
perhaps when the guy finds the body in the cave it somehow summons some minor elementals that he actually ends up killing using some item that the dead body has (say a modified necklace of fireballs... a necklace of snilloc's snowball swarms ... and maybe even one that replenishes a single orb every day... so a lot less power than the necklace of fireballs, but one which can be reused and doesn't require attunement).
ring of invisibility or cloak of invisibility (requires attunement)
ring of regeneration (requires attunement)... thinking you could even make this a lesser version that heals slower and maybe won't regrow body parts... say you get back 2 hit points every 10 minutes... that's plenty for a low level person who isn't dungeon crawling
wings of flying or cloak of the bat (requires attunement) - the cloak of the bat is more useful, but only at night
below are some items that don't require attunement
robe of useful items
rope of entanglement
rope of climbing
stone of controlling earth elementals/censer of controlling air elementals/bowl of commanding water elementals/brazier of commanding fire elementals (or maybe a lesser version... the pebble of controlling magma mephits / tea kettle of controlling steam mephits / broom of controlling dust mephits / ice pick of controlling ice mephits)
wand of magic detection (maybe even have multiple)
wand of magic missiles (definitely have multiple)
pipes of haunting
keoghtom's ointment (may have a couple jars)
quiver of ehlonna holding say 6 to 18 javelins of lightning
iron bands of bilarro
heward's handy haversack
goggles of night
glamoured studded leather (so they can go into costume mode and normal clothes quickly)
serpentine owl figurine of wondrous power (it spies for the "hero")
other figurines of wondrous power (from the onyx dog, to the golden lions, to the bronze griffon... all can be used for combat aid that can be called upon before he attacks)
silver horn of Valhalla (or maybe even an even lesser version... the copper horn of Valhalla that only summons 2 berserkers)
circlet of blasting
cap of water breathing
cape of the mountebank
broom of flying
bag of tricks (may have one of each kind and before a fight he just pulls things out until he can get something he can use)
bag of holding - the hero may use this bag by hurling it behind some crates then climbing in it to hide from pursuers
In what I listed above, the "hero" I'm describing would try to never close with the victims. They would try to blast "bad guys" from range and use summoned beings to aid them or protect them. This could make for a fun low level adventure where the party is suddenly aided by some guy in a flamboyant super hero outfit, but later they have to rescue him when his secret identity is discovered by the local criminals.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 16:27:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd thought Bane (as a mortal) was very definitely human? Being a tiefling/cambion would fit his character and background, and would make sense, but still it was written as human. It might even be argued that a "pure human" ancestry would be a requirement for ascendancy to deific status within a "pure human" pantheon.
Well, there was a time when tieflings could hide their nature, back before all the silly 4e 'uber-horned' versions came around. So now that they're a 'race' that breeds true, I suppose we need to repurpose cambion for our generic, first-generation 'half-fiends' (which I believe was its original meaning, before we wound up with two terms, and they tried to make one a half-demon and the other a half-devil, sometime in 2e... and then succubuses were also involved... PS lore is SO confusing, especially when you mix it with the 4e re-writing of most of it). Does anyone know if thats the case, or are we saying that tielfling can be used either way, and 'cambion' now means 'offspring of a succubus' (again).
That would be awfully stupid, having one term SO specific, and the other overly generic. Kind of like how they messed with Ogrillons and Orogs too much (I prefer what Tom Costa and Eric Boyd had done). Now, I believe, 'Ogrillon' refers to a breed-true 'race', like how Tieflings are (now), and the Orogs are the first-generation ones.
And yet, we've never gotten terms for long-time communities of human/demihuman crosses, like the halfelves of the Yuirwood (Helves?), or the multi-genrational halforcs (Horcs?) of settlements like Palishuck. I guess orcs rate higher than humans. LOL |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2017 16:44:50 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 17:37:34
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FR Wiki has pages for Planetouched (which includes tieflings, fey'ri, maeluth, tanarukk, and azerblood), Outsider (which includes tieflings, fey'ri, and tanarukk), Tieflings (which are similar to fey'ri, maeluth, tanarukk, and wispling), Half-fiends, Alu-fiends (similar to cambion), Cambion (a type of half-fiend, similar to alu-fiend) ... it's all very messy and obviously written and rewritten by multiple authors coming from multiple edition perspectives.
I note that the 4E-era "core race" of tieflings has not prevailed, they seem to have been a generally unpopular conception (online, anyhow) in terms of race/game mechanics while their distinctive appearance has been retained for much (or most) post-4E artwork depicting tieflings.
I come from a 2E Planescape background. I think of "tiefling" meaning a 2E-era tiefling. I refer to the 4E Realms version as "hellspawn" or "hellborn". I've met 4E players who refer to 2E-era tieflings as "low tieflings", "fiendborn", or "demi-fiends". To be honest, I'm just happy we can all get along because there's plenty of room in the cosmos for tieflings of any edition. I imagine this could be extrapolated in-game by characters (of the Realms, Sigil, wherever) preferring "tiefling" as the the descriptor for the sort of tiefling they are familiar with. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Oct 2017 18:03:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 18:59:46
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While I would personally prefer for them to go back to the old meaning of tiefling (just a 1st-geeration half-fiend), I think it would be 'bad business' to do so at this point. Too many 4e gamers now identify the HUGE-horned ones as the Tieflings, and as a separate 'race' (they did manage to fix some of that with some pretty decent lore - ones of specific bloodline - Asmodeus - got 'activated' at some point, I think as part of Asmodeus absorbing Azuth; thus, all the ones that were in a direct line to Asmodeus became 'godborn', and that empowerment is what 'made the horns come out', literally).
I forgot about Alu-fiends - good catch. Those can just be the old-school cambions now (half-succubus).
And then we can just use 'Cambion' for our generic, half-fiend term (just as 'genasi' is a generic term for half-elemental, even though both groups - and others - are all 'planetouched'). Fey'ri are just elven tieflings - I don't see why we had to have different names. Oh yeah, thats right, they made tieflings a 'race' {sigh} rather than a template. Are templates back? I briefly ran 5e, but I didn't get that far into the lore (of the rules). Templates were a very good thing, in many ways. All we need is a 'half-fiend' template and we do both Fey'ri and old-school tieflings (which I would prefer to call cambion now... which is probably because I started out with GH and thats what Iuz was... when they mucked with the names, they had a problem with his backstory, so they had to make Graz'zt a devil instead). Thus, if they just make 'cambion' the generic term now, it fixes everything, and Graz'zt can be whatever the hell he wants.
Thanks to Eberron, we even got some of these 'halves' as full races in 3e - the half-dopplegangers (changlings) and the half-weres (shifters). The doplganger halves make a lot of sense, but the lycans, not so much. And yet we still don't have 'race names' for half-elven communities and half-orcs. If RAS hadn't repurposed 'Ogrillon' to mean Underdark orc (*cough* Uruk-Hai *cough*), we could have left that for the Ogre/orc crossbreeds and stolen 'Orog' for the multi-genrational half-orcs crosses (as a race, not 1st generation - they could have more than just human blood, as RAS did state in some of his descriptive text regarding Palishuck). Of course, that would make Orogs very similar to mongrelmen, except at least some blood had to have been 'Orc' at some point (which seems to be a dominant gene, in fantasy genetics LOL). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2017 19:00:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 19:55:51
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The Planescape lore suggested that (2E) tieflings were not necessarily all 1st-generation half-fiends, 3/4 human and 1/4 fiend. They were basically "humans" whose bloodline was forever tainted by fiendish ancestry, their offspring would also be tieflings, no matter how dilute the fiendish blood it was always dominant enough to assert itself in some obviously fiendish manner and impose a stigma (at least a social stigma) of "evil" or "polluted" blood recognizable to all planar beings. I suppose it's fair to say that fiends would instead identify the stench of human fear and weakness in their otherwise strong lineages, lol. Much like elven blood, once mixed with human blood, would produce half-elves and could eventually produce normal humans (with perhaps slightly better eyesight and slightly pointed ears) but could never again breed true to proper elves.
Again, different editions bring different rules and different lores (and different tieflings, different fiend-blooded mixtures) with different names. What they are and what they're called depends greatly on the bias of the speaker. As a non-4E player (and as someone largely unimpressed by the contrivances in the novels) I largely reject 4E lore about Asmodeus and his "new" tiefling race. But I still recognize that my canon preferences are exactly as valid as those I reject.
I do ask why we should need to propose even more confusing distinctions onto already confusing distinctions? It seems counterproductive, lol. The whole reason things are as messy as they are is because they've already been deliberately and dramatically altered by WotC (multiple times) for transitory and exigent rather than lasting and contingent reasons.
It always was and even still is possible for WotC to work out explanations acceptable to the divided-fanbase consensus without compromising or sacrificing or outright steamrolling the existing (2E, 3E/3.5E, 4E, etc) lore. But I don't really expect it to happen, the days of D&D fanservice (and Realmservice) are as buried in the dark and forgotten past as the lore itself is buried under the layered seeping sediment of multiple editions. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Oct 2017 20:11:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2017 : 23:21:07
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I've always thought that all planetouched had a trace of outsider heritage in their blood, but that it wasn't a dominant trait. In fact, in one of the Hooks I wrote up back in the day, I had two brothers -- one who was a tiefling, and one who was not.
Page 112 of Races of Faerūn backs that up. It says two planetouched parents will always have planetouched kids, but "The offspring of a planetouched and a normal creature of its type (such as the child of a fey'ri and an elf) has an equal chance of being planetouched or "normal," but carries the potential for planetouched children in either case. Sometimes the outsider bloodline becomes dormant for one or more generations, only to manifest many years later."
I wouldn't mind the 4E tieflings (or the neon genasi) if they'd done pretty much anything other than "oh, disregard anything from before, they're all like this, now!"
If I had to explain all that, I'd say a side effect of the Spellplague was that the Realms was briefly washed with planar energies, causing a couple generations of more distinctive planetouched -- but that the common conception that all planetouched were like that was a mistake, and that as the years since the Spellplague have past, new planetouched children have had less and less pronounced planar features, until it gets back to the 2E build.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2017 : 00:05:30
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I vaguely recall a character who was a blue-skinned or blue-tinged human, treated as a human for racial abilities/template, but with a distant and diluted genasi heritage.
Fiendish (and draconic, and dwarven, and orcish) blood is usually asserted as "dominant" over human blood (as human blood is dominant over elven blood). Just no avoiding it, just no hiding it.
I suppose it's possible for fiendish ancestry to essentially disappear from the bloodline after enough generations. But I doubt a fey'ri or daemonfey could ever sire a line ever leading back again to "pure" elves. When speaking about Planescape tieflings I try to stay consistent with Planescape lore, lol.
These sorts of heritages sometimes came into play through special feats and abilities in 3E/3.5E. Sometimes came into play through "(in)compatibility" with magical items in all editions. Often came into play in 2E Planescape's Outer Planes. It'd be interesting to adapt the common sci-fi theme into fantasy, have a character possess some "other" (and even distasteful) substance in their blood/genes which turns out to be some sort of powerful cure or weapon or defense or tool. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Native multi-spheric gods
