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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  09:08:46  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm kinda using the century or two before Tchazzar rise to power to explain how assuran came to be worshipped in akanul and threskel and how the church of hoar came to be (George's excellent Daoud th Ahorz article filled in the missing blanks there).

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  14:44:35  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I was looking through the Forgotten Terror adventure when I noticed that one of the portals in that place went between Hazlan and the Vilhon Reach.
Then I looked up Hazlan as a domain in Ravenloft and found that it is ruled by a mulan.
So does anyone here have any Ravenloft knowledge and do they know how Hazlan came to exist and how the Mulan got there and any other general info about the whole thing so I can try and the it to Faerun.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  17:34:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's Ravenloft. It's already connected to Faerûn - Ravenloft's Mists can reach into any campaign setting, and Hazlik is not the only person from the Realms who has wound up in the Domain of Dread.

A simple Google search should give you all you need to know about Hazlik and his domain in Ravenloft.

It's always better to check Google, first, anyway, and then come here with more specific inquiries or stuff that can't be found on the first page of Google search results.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  17:46:30  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I gave it a quick Google last night but the two or three sites I looked at only detailed the geography and dates and places in the domain and not how the domain came to exist or how the Mulan got there. I'm hoping if the origin is not already claimed to link it to an event in faerun, perhaps the taking of Inixrien (I bet the invaders were not generous to the losers).

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  18:41:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I gave it a quick Google last night but the two or three sites I looked at only detailed the geography and dates and places in the domain and not how the domain came to exist or how the Mulan got there. I'm hoping if the origin is not already claimed to link it to an event in faerun, perhaps the taking of Inixrien (I bet the invaders were not generous to the losers).



The Mulan didn't get there. One dude did. Are you entirely unfamiliar with Ravenloft?

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  18:49:32  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know it exists and have passing familiarity with a few domains and stories but I've never read a Ravenloft sourcebook.
I could have sworn one of the sites mentioned Mulan nobles ruling over rashemoni peasants but it could well have been can based (and even if it isn't the mix of Mulan and rashemmi implies Thay)

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  19:11:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Short version: Ravenloft is a demiplane, and it grabs people -- sometimes entire lands -- from other worlds. No one goes there voluntarily or even intentionally, and getting back out is insanely difficult.

If there are Mulan there, aside from Hazlik, they didn't migrate there, the Mists grabbed them and pulled them in, and it was a one-time thing.

Really, the only times in Realms history that Ravenloft is even worth mentioning* is when someone prominent from the Realms winds up there -- and even then, from the perspective of the Realms, that person just disappeared, fate unknown.

Gondegal the Lost King, would-be ruler of Arabel, is a wonderful example of this. He was defeated by King Azoun IV, fled, and no one in the Realms knows what happened to him afterward. He was still alive and kicking in Ravenloft, but no one in the Realms had any way of knowing this.

*Not a diss on Ravenloft; I like the Domains of Dread. But it's not worth mentioning in Realms history because it's not in the Realms, much like Krynn or Oerth. Aside from the Misty kidnappings (and maybe a portal or two), Ravenloft does not have any impact on or other connections to the Realms.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Apr 2018 19:15:19
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  20:24:01  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I had another read and assuming its not fanmade lore it definitely seems that a group of Mulan and Rashemmoni arrived in the past and conquered Hazlan from the then occupiers.

This occurred 1100 years ago and given that its Mulan and Rashemi at the same time (a mix that only takes place in Thay) I've narrowed it down to the defeat of Eltab by an incarnation of Anhur (and him being imprisoned beneath the Thaymount) or its to do with the Order of the Black Flame (most likely its destruction).

I can kind of see the mists coming to claim the group of good guys that were foolish enough to bind a demonlord to the land. The first mulan king lived for 300 years so perhaps he was the incarnation.


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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  21:19:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I had another read and assuming its not fanmade lore it definitely seems that a group of Mulan and Rashemmoni arrived in the past and conquered Hazlan from the then occupiers.

This occurred 1100 years ago and given that its Mulan and Rashemi at the same time (a mix that only takes place in Thay) I've narrowed it down to the defeat of Eltab by an incarnation of Anhur (and him being imprisoned beneath the Thaymount) or its to do with the Order of the Black Flame (most likely its destruction).

I can kind of see the mists coming to claim the group of good guys that were foolish enough to bind a demonlord to the land. The first mulan king lived for 300 years so perhaps he was the incarnation.





I still don't see how that's relevant to the Realms, since Hazlan is not in the Realms. And there's no evidence that anyone in Hazlan, aside from Hazlik himself, is from the Realms (when the Mists grabbed him, they dropped him off in Hazlan -- like other domains, where the populace actually comes from is not addressed).

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  21:26:41  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it's a homebrew site then but the mention of Mulan and rashemmi as the native populace is too much of a coincidence to not be realmsian. I shall have to find myself some Ravenloft sourcebooks and read up on the domain

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sleyvas
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  21:34:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

So I was looking through the Forgotten Terror adventure when I noticed that one of the portals in that place went between Hazlan and the Vilhon Reach.
Then I looked up Hazlan as a domain in Ravenloft and found that it is ruled by a mulan.
So does anyone here have any Ravenloft knowledge and do they know how Hazlan came to exist and how the Mulan got there and any other general info about the whole thing so I can try and the it to Faerun.



Hazlik was a red wizard who got bullied by other red wizards, got tattooed with female tattoos, and ended up in Ravenloft where his inadequacies basically fueled his hatred.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Hazlik

However, reread that module. It doesn't say that there is a link from Hazlan to the Vilhon. It says "if you want the players to leave ravenloft, send them to the vilhon. If you want to keep them in ravenloft, send them to Hazlan." Basically, it gave a bunch of random locations for where to send the PC's next whether it be in ravenloft or in the realms.


Exactly where the characters arrive when they depart this place depends upon the enchanted rubies that they used to open the gate (and the plans of the Dungeon Master). To determine where the portal out of Aggarath leads, the Dungeon Master should add up the number of sides on the gems (each stone has a number of faces equal to the facet number from which it was recovered), then consult the following chart. If the Dungeon Master wishes to conclude the adventure with a return to the Forgotten Realms, he should refer to the right column; if he prefers to keep the adventurers in the Demiplane of Dread, he should use the center column. If the Dungeon Master wishes to transport the characters to another campaign world, he can create a similar chart. Of course, should the Dungeon Master have a specific location in mind for the party's next adventure, he can deposit the heroes wherever he chooses.

For example, consider the case of a party escap- ing from Aggarath using the rubies from the Fifth, Eighth, and Tenth Facets. The number of sides on these stones adds up to 23 (5+8+10). According to the chart, the group is transported from Aggarath to Nova Vaasa (if remaining in Ravenloft), or Spulzeer Vale (in the Forgotten Realms).



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  02:20:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Maybe it's a homebrew site then but the mention of Mulan and rashemmi as the native populace is too much of a coincidence to not be realmsian. I shall have to find myself some Ravenloft sourcebooks and read up on the domain



As I said, it doesn't address where the population came from. Suddenly there was a domain, and it was populated -- that's pretty much the story for all of the domains of Ravenloft. There is literally nothing that even implies that Hazlan was ever connected to the Realms.

I kinda suspect the common people of the domains aren't really people... They're either constructs of the dark powers, or they're souls given bodies as a temporary thing. Maybe souls that haven't been used by mortals yet, or maybe the demiplane is a kind of purgatory.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2018 02:21:36
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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  08:53:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the point where I make Wooly nuts...

What if Abeir IS Ravenloft?

I mean... we don't really know where Abeir is, aside from it being 'in another plane' ("out of sync") from Toril. For all we know, its floating around in the Shadowfel. Lord knows everything else is these days.

But the real reason why I came to this thread just now was because I have kind of a BIG question, but I don't want a BIG answer. LOL

Does anyone have the 'Cliffs notes' (abridged) version of the history between Unther, Cessenta, and Chondath? I remember the last time I was trying to work it all out I got a headache and gave up. Something about Chessenta having been (a part of) Unther, and then it broke away and spread into Chondath, which then broke-away itself, but I think maybe Chessenta then reconquered it, but I think at some point Chondath conquered Chessenta as well. All I really know is that after reading up on the Old Empires a few years ago, I was more confused afterwards.

There just seems to be a lot of back-and-forth with what country belonged to who at different points in the timeline. And Unther just gets really weird - I always think of it on the 'left side' of the Alamber Sea there (because of 3e), when really, if you look at older maps, it was WAY down south, around the Black Ash Plains, and into the Shaar. Those cities along the coast there were really the anomalies of the original empire (which ended-up being the whole empire, when it began to disintegrate).

Now that we've gotten all that land back (that we lost in 3e), you can see just how vast the region/kingdom was, and yet there almost no settlements in the heart of it. I find myself wanting to add a bunch. And looking at the roads from 1e/2e (which imply where all the main trade routes were), I get this feeling that Unther traded a lot with Calimshan via the Lake of Steam - could Innarlith actually have been an Unther-founded 'trading post' that just kept growing? I mean, we have Torsh - which is a small city - in the middle of nowhere! That should mean a LOT of stuff is passing east-west around there for cities to have grown along the route.

Thoughts?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2018 19:40:51
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  09:02:22  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as you can rationalise the conflicting info in old empires, chessenta was an autonomous nation within the empire of unther.
Chessenta darted with jhaamdath prior to the orcgate wars and conquered inixrien the tenth city of the sword which it occupied for a long time. When the orcgate wars happened jhaamdath quickly took inixrien back. That's just a simple version of centuries of warfare though. I'd be willing to bet the north west region of chessenta and north east of jhaamdath were just to many battles and lots of swapping of territory.

Unther the nation controlled land as far north as thesk and as far South as dambrath. It controlled lands in the shaar but I don't believe it ever reached the lake of steam, that was a region controlled by shoon and jhaamdath.

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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  21:09:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except that Innarlith - being on the 'far end' there may have been a trading post set up both merchants of both empires, that grew into a metropolis. Chondath 'wasn't a thing' until after Jhaamdath fell (I always forget about Jhaamdath... damn psionics interfering with my brain LOL), but I imagine that when Chessenta was more 'fully' a part of Unther, Chondath was probably something like 'The Chondathan Wilds' - a 'marchlands' kind of region for the empire. They seem to have been all over that area there just below The Chondalwood - there is a major trade road (not trail) - down there, and someone had to have built that. Even in RW ancient times, it didn't matter if empires hated each other, merchants still did their thing and made a profit (in fact, they made MORE profit during times of war... which is why we are where we are at in current RW history). Wars are always fought over resources, and the most basic resource is land (because that contains the other resources). History is entirely based upon geography - the land tells a story (at least, it does for me while i am mapping). Thus, our entire human heritage is wrapped around greedy merchants (bankers) controlling everything and instigating wars to inflate prices and force countries to take out loans. So when you look at ancient maps and see a major city, you know thats a spot merchants picked to make the most profit. Smaller settlements were dependent upon water sources, but the ones that became metropoli are the ones with the most trade flowing through them. Innarlith seems to be an an insanely ideal spot - not only can it easily dominate the east-west trade via the Lake of Steam (and AFAIK Calimshan wasn't over on that end - they shifted south by the time they got that far east), but it later became poised to control a huge chunk of north-west trade moving from the Vilhon Reach to the Shining South. After the fall of Jhaamdath (and the creation of the Vilhon), it should have been poised to become one of the richest, most powerful cities in the world.

And I see it being first established by a consortium of Calishite and Mulan merchants.

As for Chessenta - I try to look at Unther like Ancient Rome (even though the culture was supposed to be Mesopotamian, we don't have as much info on that). Rome had vast 'provinces' it barely controlled, and I think Unther was probably very similar (and I feel this was taken directly from the Imaskari - a very loose collection of provinces surrounding the main kingdom, and as long as they paid their 'taxes' - which could have even just been levies of soldiers - they pretty-much let those provinces run themselves). The Mulhorandi, on the other hand, were more about TOTAL control, right down to the religion (and controlling population THROUGH religion, just like ancient Egypt). So Mulhorand was more like a huge kingdom than an empire, except for Murghôm (although I think they had a much firmer grasp of Murghôm in the distant past). Unther was true empire, with a bunch of semi-autonomous states. I think - borrowing form the Greek model - the 'citystates' of Chessenta were each assigned governors, who rules however they wanted, so long as they sent their taxes back home. This lead to them feeling more and more independent, until they finally threw off the yoke of Unther.

Looking at the timeline, I just realized there's been a major error in my thinking - Jhaamdath fell long before Unther became a thing. And yet... they also fought as well. The history is just a mess - I am finding conflicts between tGHoR and LE (a source I am liking less and less over time). Neither source really details what went on after Imaskar fell; in fact, LE goes out of its way to detail an empire that has little relevance today (tis was before the later 4e/5e material), which means the info therein isn't all that useful to DMs. Yet, Unther and Mulhorand get barely a mention and ZERO detail, and those are active kingdoms people really needed to know about in 3e. Its so bizarre - its like the designers didn't even know what to do what that region. Anyhow, I think it wasn't Unther-proper fighting Jhaamdath at all - it was the province of Chessenta, acting completely independent of Unther (which was busy fighting its own wars and several fronts and couldn't reign-in its wayward province). In fact, Jhaamdath had a history of fighting with Calimshan, so it might make a lot of sense that Unther and Calimshan were 'uneasy allies' against Jhaamdath (IIRC, Mulhorand also had some run-ins with Calimshan, in regards to the Channath {Elsir} Vale, because Calimshan was pushing inland from Lapaliiya, so there would be another place Unther and Calimshan could help each other).

What I don't get is, the Jhaamdathans seem to have been defending themselves against Calimshan and later Chessenta (so also Unther, indirectly), and they are the ones that got attacked by the elves and destroyed? What did everyone have against Jhaamdath? Is psonics really that scary? I always thought it was Chondath that had picked a fight with the elves, but Chondath - a nation that came later and DID 'mess with the trees' - was actually created by the elves when they destroyed Jhaamdath (and thus, perhaps, creating a bigger threat for themselves down the line).

I though the giants/dragons wars and empires were a confusing and unreconcilable mess, but this Old Empires stuff is really broken. No wonder the designers have just been skating around it for years - its a mind-field of bad continuity.

I wish I had time to do one of those historic, time-lapse empire maps right now. I just can't wrap my head around how all these borders kept moving around. I actually found an entry in OE that says Narfell tried to invade Mulhorand and Unther.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2018 21:18:22
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  21:33:58  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm pretty sure I've ironed out the old empires as much as I can.

I made Chessenta into a 3rd empire for precisely the reason you mentioned. As a province it acts far to independent to be part of Unther. So I made it a separate people and nation and pantheon from Unther but was later brought into Unther's empire and history rewritten (the books were rewritten not time) so that it was always part of Unther.

Jhaamdath was a contemporary of Coramshan and Mir and it took the uniting of both nations to stop Jhaamdath's expansion south. It then expanded east (cutting down the trees a bit) to encounter the equally expansionist Akanu (Chessenta) and war broke out.
With large empires to the south/west and east it could only expand across the water so it started chopping down lots of wood and thus it annoyed the elves too much and they killed them all.


As for Narfell invading Mulhorand. It was an attempted and very shortlived invasion if I recall. They built a massive navy to invade from the sea while a smaller army tried to invade through the narrow land route.
Mulhorand called in a favour and Unther attacked the Narfelli armada in the rear as it was landing while Mulhorand dealt with the land army.
Unfortunately before Mulhorand and Narfell could counter the advance I think Raumathar invaded Narfell occupied Thay and Wizards' Reach so it wasn't until the Great Conflagration that Mulhorand and Narfell could divide up the lands as agreed (Mulhorand gets Thay and Unther gets Wizards' Reach and Aglarond).

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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  22:01:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So now that I've gotten my head wrapped around a couple of things, I can see Mulhorand - being the very rigid, 'lawful' culture that it is, staking out its borders ans staying that way. later it annexed Murghôm (and then Semphar), but I think that was more of a tax-grab on their part; they didn't really ever 'rule' either. But I think the Untherites were a much more 'energetic' group. I think the percentage of 'Dathites' (my theoretical Mediterranean group, which IS hinted at in canon) was much higher than we realize, but the Greek gods didn't come over with the others* so they just got folded into the 'Mulan' (as a 'western mulan' sub-ethnicity). This is no big deal, because in those early days when those groups were kidnapped, the Mesopotamian gods were beginning to spread to the Hellenes, and later became their own Greek Pantheon - Zeus is actually derived from the Vedic (Indo-European) Dyeus Ph'ter (which also gives us Dispater, of the underworld, and 'Jupiter' in Latin). Thus, just like my earlier musings on Nergal being both a sun god and a god of the underworld (and also considered both a fiend AND a god, depending on the culture involved), we have another ancient, proto-deity who seems to have been a 'Skyfather' and yet ruled the Underworld.

But I don't want to get into mythology & Gods right now - I just wanted to demonstrate that Mesopotamian culture WAS very early mediterranean culture - they were the FIRST to have spread into those areas. Thus, if my 'Dathites' were stolen even before the ancient Greek period (like the Phoenicians), then it really is all one and then same group that later spread further afield RW. Unlike RW Greeks & Romans, the Dathites would not have known gods by their Greek or Latin names.

Anyhow, I went down a path I hadn't meant to {sigh} - apologies. What I wanted to do is give a 'broad strokes' picture of the OE region at its infancy. Mulhorand got organized and became kingdom, with laws and formal borders, etc. Unther had more a free-form thing going on, until Gilgeam took over. They were much more like our ancient Greeks than they were the Babylonian/Sumerians (although, we don't really know how different they were - the Sumerians appear to have had a similar 'Citystate' model as well), at least culturally.

So while Mulhorand became FR's version of the old and stodgy 'British Empire', unther was more like the Americas... at first. Wild and untamed and freedom-loving, with more freedom of religion (and thus, expression). All that changed after Gilgeam showed up, which is probably when the outlying region started to break-away from Unther. The people of Unther (pre-Gilgeam) probably felt Mulhorand was just 'Imaskar: the sequel'; the 'God-priests' (wizard/priest Gish) simply replaced the Artificers as the 'ruling, magical class'.

I need to place the cities of Jhaamdath on my current mpap to get a better idea of where they were in regards to Chondath and Chessenta. Right now I am just trying getting a mental picture of history unfolding along the southern coast of the Inner Sea.

And the idea of golem-powered Biremes just came into my head. BIG golems, with four arms, so they can row both the upper and lower banks of oars. And then you can also use them to fight when you get to where you're going.



*Or did they?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Apr 2018 07:14:02
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  02:20:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This is the point where I make Wooly nuts...

What if Abeir IS Ravenloft?

I mean... we don't really know where Abeir is, aside from it being 'in another plane' ("out of sync") from Toril. For all we know, its floating around in the Shadowfel. Lord knows everything else is these days.

But the real reason why I came to this thread just now was because I have kind of a BIG question, but I don't want a BIG answer. LOL

Does anyone have the 'Cliffs notes' (abridged) version of the history between Unther, Cessenta, and Chondath? I remember the last time I was trying to work it all out I got a headache and gave up. Something about Chessenta having been (a part of) Unther, and then it broke away and spread into Chondath, which then broke-away itself, but I think maybe Chessenta then reconquered it, but I think at some point Chondath conquered Chessenta as well. All I really know is that after reading up on the Old Empires a few years ago, I was more confused afterwards.

There just seems to be a lot of back-and-forth with what country belonged to who at different points in the timeline. And Unther just gets really weird - I always think of it on the 'left side' of the Alamber Sea there (because of 3e), when really, if you look at older maps, it was WAY down south, around the Black Ash Plains, and into the Shaar. Those cities along the coast there were really the anomalies of the original empire (which ended-up being the whole empire, when it began to disintegrate).

Now that we've gotten all that land back (that we lost in 3e), you can see just how vast the region/kingdom was, and yet there almost no settlements in the heart of it. I find myself wanting to add a bunch. And looking at the roads from 1e/2e (which imply where all the main trade routes were), I get this feeling that Unther traded a lot with Calimshan via the Lake of Steam - could Innarlith actually have been an Unther-founded 'trading post' that just kept growing? I mean, we have Torsh - which is a small city - in the middle of nowhere! That should mean a LOT of stuff is passing east-west around there for cities to have grown along the route.

Thoughts?



Throw Jhaamdath in there too... and the League of Samathar and Threskel.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  07:31:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I'm pretty sure I've ironed out the old empires as much as I can.

I made Chessenta into a 3rd empire for precisely the reason you mentioned. As a province it acts far to independent to be part of Unther. So I made it a separate people and nation and pantheon from Unther but was later brought into Unther's empire and history rewritten (the books were rewritten not time) so that it was always part of Unther.

Jhaamdath was a contemporary of Coramshan and Mir and it took the uniting of both nations to stop Jhaamdath's expansion south. It then expanded east (cutting down the trees a bit) to encounter the equally expansionist Akanu (Chessenta) and war broke out.
With large empires to the south/west and east it could only expand across the water so it started chopping down lots of wood and thus it annoyed the elves too much and they killed them all.


As for Narfell invading Mulhorand. It was an attempted and very shortlived invasion if I recall. They built a massive navy to invade from the sea while a smaller army tried to invade through the narrow land route.
Mulhorand called in a favour and Unther attacked the Narfelli armada in the rear as it was landing while Mulhorand dealt with the land army.
Unfortunately before Mulhorand and Narfell could counter the advance I think Raumathar invaded Narfell occupied Thay and Wizards' Reach so it wasn't until the Great Conflagration that Mulhorand and Narfell could divide up the lands as agreed (Mulhorand gets Thay and Unther gets Wizards' Reach and Aglarond).
Yeah, 'something' being where Chessenta is now before it became part of Unther makes a lot of sense. Chessenta's history goes back too far for it to be that recent, especially if they were exchanging blows with Jhaamdath.

I find the interaction between Narfell and the Old Empires fascinating. Had Raumathar not come along at the right time, history might have gove very differently back then. The weird thing is that the northern history paints Narfell as the aggressor against Raumathar, which means it was picking fights on EVERY front - Nazi Germany, much? It overreached and got flattened. Plus you had Netheril 'buzzing' them (via Larloch)... Narfell must have been a power to be reckoned with if it had them worried. And at the end of the day, it all revolved around everyone wanting Thay for some reason - centaur power? LOL

So weird that Unther stopped bothering to expand south - which should have been a cake-walk, and instead butted heads with other powerful empires in a region across the sea. It makes little sense to me - was the land so much better there? The 3e maps show that whole coast covered with swamps - doesn't sound too enticing to me. There had to be some reason why they stopped their southern expansion and allowed Mulhorand to skirt around them in the Shaar. Giving who ruled them, it seems more like an ego thing by Gilgeam rather than anything based on logic ("if someone else wants that stuff, then I want it too!") Of course, I see the dwarves as a major player back then, with many surface settlements in the Channath (Elsir) Vale region, so maybe Unther pissed off the dwarves, lost some fights, and decided not to poke them anymore?

Yet Mulhorand has no problem moving through the region - maybe they had some sort of deal going on? Although all three groups should have banded-together to stop those barbarian invasions (Mul and Unther did, but curiously there is no mention of the dwarves involved in any of that).

Trying to come up with a logical story for them (Mul & Dwarves) working together. Some of the Pharonics have bird-heads... maybe they gave the dwarves their griffons? Something like that? Like, "here's some flying mounts for you guys... go kick nasty Unther out of the Shaar".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Apr 2018 14:24:48
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  09:13:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The best I can make out is unther lost control of the shaar twice. First time unther occupied the eastern shaar when email was in charge, they left the other half of the shaar to the dwarves.
Then the orcgate wars happened and Unther had to pull almost everyone back leaving the far provinces almost totally abandoned.

When Gilgeam took over he rapidly expanded the empire again, taking eastern and central parts of shaar (earning the eternal enmity of the dwarves). The empire grew to huge proportions but it was too big for the empire to handle.
Then eltabranar came along and occupied the junction at the shaar which held all the southern empire together. Eltabranar even conquered parts of unther and mulhorand.
Unther and mulhorand took their lands back and Unther followed the fleeing arkauins all the way to dambrath and occupied that region for a time. Then Shoon came and took central shaar off unther.
Unther and shoon went to war and shoon won. Both empires put so much into the war their empires began to crumble. Unther lost all it's southern territories in quick succession and then the northern territories rebelled followed by chessenta.

Basically Gilgeam was very unwise and conquered too rapidly before everything fell apart.

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  14:58:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The downfall of all tyrants, eventually - EGO.

Thank you for that brief outline - its just what I was looking for.

I also forgot there is a very easy way to get the dwarves and Mulhorand to cooperate - Religion. Ptah is a dwarf. In fact, in my homebrew stuff, I have him as a Supernal and Annam's 'daddy' (more like creator - the familial aspects weren't really a thing back then).I used to have it where Moradin was the son of Annam, but I've decided they should both be the product of Ptah (the dwarven 'High God' alluded to in 2e CGtD). I guess that makes Annam and Moradin 'siblings' (but as I've just said, the whole 'familial' aspect to relationships didn't become 'a thing' until after mortals came on the scene). I didn't want to make Moradin that high-up the foodchain, but unfortunately the 4e lore places him squarely amongst the 'Elder Gods' (Estelar) along with Corellon and others. So Annam gets to be a primordial, and Moradin gets to be and Estelar. That makes me think Annam was simply created whole-cloth by Ptah alone, whereas Ptah may have 'worked together' with someone else to make Moradin (likely the Earth-goddess, Yondalla).

Hmmmm... that just triggered some thoughts for the cosmology thread.

Anyway, I liked my idea about the Pharonics having given the dwarves the power to control griffons, so I won't lose that, even though I have Ptah to connect them now. I can see the dwarves 'retreating' (like the elves did, but the dwarves did so underground) from the surface of Shaar over time, and relinquishing those areas to Mulhorand (which didn't last long, because Mulhorand's own over-expansions eventually came back to bite them in the arse, when they started having problems on other fronts). So, to add to what you said - Unther starts messing with the dwarves' surface holdings (much as Calimshan was doing to the Dwarves of High Shanatar), and the dwarves begin to fall back. the Mulhorand go behind Unther's back and make deals with the Dwarves, so even after the dwarves finally win against Unther, they continue to withdraw from their holdings and the Mulhorandi take over... for a short time. Calimshan and Mulhorand probably only got to have a couple of small 'brushfire wars' before both empires had to redraw because of problems back home. That leaves a rather eclectic sampling of cultures in the western Shar - somehting akin to the Berbers of N. Africa (which is how I've always pictured the Tashalar anyway, so it all works out).

I'm thinking the Shaar barbarians - Arkauins and Sharrans - were probably MUCH larger groups back then, but after many wars of attrition they're population dwindled to what it is today. Add-in that the Loxo and Thr-Kreen arrived at some point, and they went from being forces similar to the Goth hordes of Northern Europe to being the few scattered tribes they are now. Their own aggressions wore them down until other, smaller groups were able to become dominant (plus, most of the Arkauins wound up in Dambrath for some reason. I would hazard to guess there was something/someone already there for them to have just gone in and taken over, rather than them simply creating their own civilization right in the Shaar (but on the other hand, they WERE running from Unther and Mulhorand). Maybe the dwarves were also settled there in ancient Dambrath? And then they withdrew and allowed the Arkuins to settle there? That could work. There does seem to be some evidence that there was some other culture along that coast a LONG time ago (see Chasolné).

Hmmmm... it seems they connected Chasolné to the Sarrukh - that doesn't actually make sense. Why would Sarrukh carve human-looking heads? I don't like that spin at all (1e/2e just described them as carvings of giant human heads). I may have to ignore the 'skin with markings that look like scales' to the work of mistaken scholars (it was just normal erosion).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Apr 2018 15:04:06
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  21:33:51  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Decided on the half orcs of Airspur.

So I'm the ancient akanu take orcs as slaves following the orcgate wars, as a curiousity and new pet. They aren't nice to them and most die but the rest prove hardy and so are put to use in the lands that bore the brunt of the fighting between Akanu and Jhaamdath. THe land was a bit ruined and so the orcs are kept in slave forts in case Jhaamdath comes knocking again.

When Akanu dissolves and the Turami and Chondathans move in they find the orcs here already and release them. THe orcs are kept as slaves again but prove their worth and eventually lead to the halforc population we have.


The orcs in the Akanapeaks are mountain orcs that arrived during the Orcgates Affair in 955DR. They destroyed the dwarf holds beneath the mountains a few centuries ago and are now raiding nearby villages.

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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  08:26:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats so funny - we seem to revolve around the same things a lot. Just a short time ago I was working on that region (had to 'fix' Airspur - it needed to be on a river-crevasse, and after fixing the coast to match 4e's in that spot, I lost my original placement).

Anyhow, Airspur was the only thing in the 2e OE source that really caught my attention back when I read it - I loved that it was ruled by a half-orc! I absolutely HATED what 4e did to it... but aesthetically, its grown on me (the whole 'Earthmote' thing). So here are my current thoughts - a large chunk of the Ocrish population (heck, a large chunk of all of Chesenta's population) went to Abeir (this was an area where LOTS of stuff got swapped-in). Thus orcs flourished and did well wherever that went to (some little corner of Abeir where nasty humans and others didn't bother them), and then they returned, and a charismatic half-orc Earth genasi took over in the confusion... and he just so happens to be a descendant of Khrulis.

So the 4e(and 5e) fans get to keep their genasi version of Airspur, but us grognards get to have our halforc back. I'm picturing him (or her) looking like The Thing from Marvel Comics... should we call him B'ngrim?

"Its clobbering' time!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2018 08:27:56
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  16:39:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The best I can make out is unther lost control of the shaar twice. First time unther occupied the eastern shaar when email was in charge, they left the other half of the shaar to the dwarves.
Then the orcgate wars happened and Unther had to pull almost everyone back leaving the far provinces almost totally abandoned.

When Gilgeam took over he rapidly expanded the empire again, taking eastern and central parts of shaar (earning the eternal enmity of the dwarves). The empire grew to huge proportions but it was too big for the empire to handle.
Then eltabranar came along and occupied the junction at the shaar which held all the southern empire together. Eltabranar even conquered parts of unther and mulhorand.
Unther and mulhorand took their lands back and Unther followed the fleeing arkauins all the way to dambrath and occupied that region for a time. Then Shoon came and took central shaar off unther.
Unther and shoon went to war and shoon won. Both empires put so much into the war their empires began to crumble. Unther lost all it's southern territories in quick succession and then the northern territories rebelled followed by chessenta.

Basically Gilgeam was very unwise and conquered too rapidly before everything fell apart.



Also, at SOME time, Peleveran existed down in the Shaar, and it fell sometime around the 900's. I would imagine that it had at least some kind of involvement with or against Unther.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  18:55:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Peleveran was probably part of dwarven held shaar (who knows what it was called) and gilgeam took it from the dwarves when he reestablished unther control of the eastern shaar.
It may have passed between unther and shoon a few times during their war and then finally gained independence along with many other Shaaran settlements when both empires rolled over to die a slow death (Unther a century before shoon).

After 600 DR peleveran was one of those petty kingdoms that commanded the land around it for a few days ride but was otherwise nothing special (except for the corrupting secret beneath it), until the rage of dragons wiped it from existence.

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