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Demzer
Senior Scribe
692 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2018 : 21:24:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also forgot there is a very easy way to get the dwarves and Mulhorand to cooperate - Religion. Ptah is a dwarf.
[...]
Anyway, I liked my idea about the Pharonics having given the dwarves the power to control griffons, so I won't lose that, even though I have Ptah to connect them now.
Sorry, I am late on this point but I would like to add the following.
From Demihuman Deities we know that the dwarven god Vergadain subsumed the Mulhorandi deity Bes, we know from other sources (like On Hallowed Grounds) that they were on good terms before so it must have been a voluntary merger or relinquishing of power. Also Geb his allied with Moradin.
So there are quite a lot of deific points of contact between the Mulhorandi and the dwarves which to me says that there was an healthy relationship of mutual respect between the two people (probably Mulhorand is the only human society as tight-knit and granitic as the dwarven one). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2018 : 02:22:44
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They both like to build really BIG things out of rocks. 
EDIT:
So I am STILl trying to put some finishing touches on a map, and I decided to include the ruins of the Twelve cities of the Sword (Jhaamdath), and after I pasted the GHotR map into mine (and they lined up far better than they should have - I thought that map was based on the 3e one  ), it turns out several of those cities are under 'current' cities. Surprise, surprise.
Jhirrent is under Daroush - I mean directly under. Daroush itself is a ruin, so its a ruin on a ruin (in Turmish).
Golmuth falls out under Hlondeth, which is interesting. Yuan-ti and psionics.
Corrant is under Mimph, which I believe is an independent citystate (not part of either Chondath or Sespech).
Inixrien is a tough call. Its obviously on land (unlike most of the others, but it looks to be just east of Samra (in Chondath). This can go either way, since the maps aren't all that precise, and I am torn. We could simply say Samra was built on top of the ruins of Inixrien (like those others above), or we could say its a ruin a few miles east of Samra, right on the coast. Unfortunately, the second choice makes the most sense with me looking at the map, but it doesn't make sense that such a ruin was never shown to have been there before. My thoughts here are that I can use 4e to fix this - it was under water, just off the coast (and people knew there was a ruin there, but they didn't know its nature and just ignored it), and after all the weirdness of the Spellplague the ruins were exposed (as were all the others that weren't under newer cities), and after The Sundering fixed the Vilhon Reach, the ruin is only partially submerged now - half under the water, and half out, right on the coast there.
The only other of note is Porrenoth, which is just off the coast, directly SE of Amah (not sure if Amah is a part of Turmish or not). Its close enough to the coastline to perhaps be visible from the surface now (maybe a couple of taller towers sticking out of the water - something like that).
you know, If Ao fixed the Vilhon reach just like it was, and people started to occupy - or at least investigate (archaeology) - those ruins, then they all got drowned again.
Moving on to Sespech - it got pretty beat-up in 4e. Spellplagued lands everywhere. My thoughts here is that most of that stuff went to Abeir (or elsewhere), and a lot of it came back, but its changed (like how we pictured parts of Chessenta and Unther). Nothing too crazy like dragonborn, tieflings, and Genasi - more of an aesthetic change. I'm thinking red. Not as in 'Native American' red... I mean RED red. We can't really do blue or green because then they'll just look like seafolk. Drow already have black, dark brown, dark blue, and purple covered. We have all the other normal human skin tones covered. I don't think 'Yellow' would be dramatic enough (everyone would just look jaundiced - I had Hepatitis and I was bright yellow for three weeks). And orange.. well... maybe just the leader (but we'd have to give him some medusa-like epic hair).
But seriously, what does everyone think of that? The Wilderlands campaigns setting had people in every color, and I thought that was cool back in the day. We wouldn't need to make any rules changes. But I suppose we should make some sort of differences with the culture because a century living on another world changes people. I am also considering bringing over the Red Steel setting's Cinnabryl, in order to explain the Red pigmentation. Wherever these folks went, it had tons of the stuff, and a lot of it could have come back with them (which means we can still use the Spellscar rules, but instead have them as Legacies, so we can have a region of mutants').
I know you were thinking of using something similar with the Red Forest. Where was that from, BTW? Was that canon? I just realized I hadn't placed that forest. Anyhow, we can easily connect the two - say this whole region on Abeir is loaded with some sort of red-tinged mineral that soaks into everything.
Anyhow, I just figured Sespech could use a little sprucing up - its never received any official love, and is right in the middle of the setting. Something strange and awesome needs to be going on there.
EDIT2:
Scratch red -I just realized tieflings are red, and then these folk would just look like hornless tieflings. I was thinking more 'Darth Maul', but without the horns (why does everything with red skin HAVE to have horns?!) So now I am thinking even more exotic - Catfolk? there is a 'catfolk area' just to the north, so that might be redundant. I'm still thinking a 'Savage Coast' (Redteel) vibe would have worked best. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Apr 2018 08:49:32 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
4522 Posts |
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 12:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also forgot there is a very easy way to get the dwarves and Mulhorand to cooperate - Religion. Ptah is a dwarf.
[...]
Anyway, I liked my idea about the Pharonics having given the dwarves the power to control griffons, so I won't lose that, even though I have Ptah to connect them now.
Sorry, I am late on this point but I would like to add the following.
From Demihuman Deities we know that the dwarven god Vergadain subsumed the Mulhorandi deity Bes, we know from other sources (like On Hallowed Grounds) that they were on good terms before so it must have been a voluntary merger or relinquishing of power. Also Geb his allied with Moradin.
So there are quite a lot of deific points of contact between the Mulhorandi and the dwarves which to me says that there was an healthy relationship of mutual respect between the two people (probably Mulhorand is the only human society as tight-knit and granitic as the dwarven one).
Though they didn't adapt to it as fast as Raumathar/Narfell, they also learned of steel manufacturing from the dwarves of the great rift. They did a lot of trading with the dwarves.
I had not noted that with Bes though, and that is interesting. If I had to do anything with that, I'm not sure what I would do. Maybe Bes died in the Orcgate Wars? I'd once theorized that the orcs somehow learned to use the gate up in Ashanath that connects to the Council Hills in the Shaar (and this is WHY the humans just 5 years after the orcgate wars know how to open the portal to create the city of Shandaular). I'd thought that maybe this is WHY Unther lost so much territory down in the Shaar and how the orcs perhaps killed so many of the Untheric gods (they caught them off guard and from behind). If this were true, then having Bes appear in the path of the orc horde streaming towards the great rift could be possibly interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 12:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They both like to build really BIG things out of rocks.
EDIT:
So I am STILl trying to put some finishing touches on a map, and I decided to include the ruins of the Twelve cities of the Sword (Jhaamdath), and after I pasted the GHotR map into mine (and they lined up far better than they should have - I thought that map was based on the 3e one ), it turns out several of those cities are under 'current' cities. Surprise, surprise.
Jhirrent is under Daroush - I mean directly under. Daroush itself is a ruin, so its a ruin on a ruin (in Turmish).
Golmuth falls out under Hlondeth, which is interesting. Yuan-ti and psionics.
Corrant is under Mimph, which I believe is an independent citystate (not part of either Chondath or Sespech).
Inixrien is a tough call. Its obviously on land (unlike most of the others, but it looks to be just east of Samra (in Chondath). This can go either way, since the maps aren't all that precise, and I am torn. We could simply say Samra was built on top of the ruins of Inixrien (like those others above), or we could say its a ruin a few miles east of Samra, right on the coast. Unfortunately, the second choice makes the most sense with me looking at the map, but it doesn't make sense that such a ruin was never shown to have been there before. My thoughts here are that I can use 4e to fix this - it was under water, just off the coast (and people knew there was a ruin there, but they didn't know its nature and just ignored it), and after all the weirdness of the Spellplague the ruins were exposed (as were all the others that weren't under newer cities), and after The Sundering fixed the Vilhon Reach, the ruin is only partially submerged now - half under the water, and half out, right on the coast there.
The only other of note is Porrenoth, which is just off the coast, directly SE of Amah (not sure if Amah is a part of Turmish or not). Its close enough to the coastline to perhaps be visible from the surface now (maybe a couple of taller towers sticking out of the water - something like that).
you know, If Ao fixed the Vilhon reach just like it was, and people started to occupy - or at least investigate (archaeology) - those ruins, then they all got drowned again.
Moving on to Sespech - it got pretty beat-up in 4e. Spellplagued lands everywhere. My thoughts here is that most of that stuff went to Abeir (or elsewhere), and a lot of it came back, but its changed (like how we pictured parts of Chessenta and Unther). Nothing too crazy like dragonborn, tieflings, and Genasi - more of an aesthetic change. I'm thinking red. Not as in 'Native American' red... I mean RED red. We can't really do blue or green because then they'll just look like seafolk. Drow already have black, dark brown, dark blue, and purple covered. We have all the other normal human skin tones covered. I don't think 'Yellow' would be dramatic enough (everyone would just look jaundiced - I had Hepatitis and I was bright yellow for three weeks). And orange.. well... maybe just the leader (but we'd have to give him some medusa-like epic hair).
But seriously, what does everyone think of that? The Wilderlands campaigns setting had people in every color, and I thought that was cool back in the day. We wouldn't need to make any rules changes. But I suppose we should make some sort of differences with the culture because a century living on another world changes people. I am also considering bringing over the Red Steel setting's Cinnabryl, in order to explain the Red pigmentation. Wherever these folks went, it had tons of the stuff, and a lot of it could have come back with them (which means we can still use the Spellscar rules, but instead have them as Legacies, so we can have a region of mutants').
I know you were thinking of using something similar with the Red Forest. Where was that from, BTW? Was that canon? I just realized I hadn't placed that forest. Anyhow, we can easily connect the two - say this whole region on Abeir is loaded with some sort of red-tinged mineral that soaks into everything.
Anyhow, I just figured Sespech could use a little sprucing up - its never received any official love, and is right in the middle of the setting. Something strange and awesome needs to be going on there.
EDIT2:
Scratch red -I just realized tieflings are red, and then these folk would just look like hornless tieflings. I was thinking more 'Darth Maul', but without the horns (why does everything with red skin HAVE to have horns?!) So now I am thinking even more exotic - Catfolk? there is a 'catfolk area' just to the north, so that might be redundant. I'm still thinking a 'Savage Coast' (Redteel) vibe would have worked best.
There was the red mineral forest of Shyr that I was creating, then there was also firetrees. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 21:43:53
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I was picturing something looking like THIS (minus the pointy ears), or THIS, or THIS for a male. Red-skinned, and maybe clothing/culture reminiscent of Persia (Yeah, I know we already have a Persia over in Semphar, but no-one every used the damn thing, and now there are dragons pooping all over it).
But with maybe some of the tattooing we see on the Dathomirian Zabrak (Darth Maul's race). So a psuedo-Persian vibe, but with tribal tattooing similar to Celtic. I suppose black shapes and symbols would be the most common, but there could be other colors (like white) to denote something special (like a religious order). Maybe something like THIS without the head-thingies for an example of white 'tattooing'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 23:12:12
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Given that its right near the Chondalwood, it could be interesting if my idea for the red mineral forest of Shyr were actually expanded. Basically, I had placed the red mineral forest next to Firetrees in Unther. However, what if there's another section of the exact same kind of trees and soil that transfers into portions of Sespech. I had been trying to figure out what to do with the ruins of Innarlith. Maybe these people transferred, but their homes didn't, and now they've taken over this old city.
I do like the imagery your describing as well and perhaps the two separate cultures may somewhat LOOK alike (i.e. red skin), but their cultures are vastly different somehow. I picture the ones in Sespech as more martial for instance. Maybe psionic as well.... of course, the sith imagery may be driving that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 17:48:20
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Its funny, but I just went looking for 'red skinned people' (and that's not easy - I had to word it so many different ways jst to find a few pics of something similar) - I hadn't intended to connect them to Jhaamdath or psionics, and there wasn't a lot of imagery for me to choose from.
And yeah, I was thinking along the same lines - whatever portion of of Abeir this region corresponds to, it probably has that 'red mineral' throughout it, so from Sespech across lower Chessenta on into Unther would have it, in different concentrations (depending on how much got swapped-out during the Spellplague - parts of Chessenta and nearly all of Sespech got hit hard).
So, like a Persian-esque style/culture, maybe Spanish (Moorish) architecture, but with a militant tradition (probably wherever they went in Abeir, they were under constant attack), and they're fighting style would be akin to the gracefulness of elves (like bladedancers, but with various, Asian-style weapons).
EDIT:
I am really loving This Vibe for Sespech, even though I've always complained we've had too any 'Middle-Eastern' style cultures already. The use of giant scorpions instead of elephants is pure win, IMO.
Maybe not Scorpions - I'll save that for somewhere else more fitting (like the desert region of Katshaka). But I do love the idea of something else taking the place of elephants. Maybe some sort of dino could work (although I wanted to save sauroids for katshaka as well). Something Like THIS would be kinda cool, and not dirivative or saurian-based. I need to look through the Athas creatures - I am sure I can find something there I can adapt. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2018 17:37:23 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
4522 Posts |
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2018 : 22:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its funny, but I just went looking for 'red skinned people' (and that's not easy - I had to word it so many different ways jst to find a few pics of something similar) - I hadn't intended to connect them to Jhaamdath or psionics, and there wasn't a lot of imagery for me to choose from.
And yeah, I was thinking along the same lines - whatever portion of of Abeir this region corresponds to, it probably has that 'red mineral' throughout it, so from Sespech across lower Chessenta on into Unther would have it, in different concentrations (depending on how much got swapped-out during the Spellplague - parts of Chessenta and nearly all of Sespech got hit hard).
So, like a Persian-esque style/culture, maybe Spanish (Moorish) architecture, but with a militant tradition (probably wherever they went in Abeir, they were under constant attack), and they're fighting style would be akin to the gracefulness of elves (like bladedancers, but with various, Asian-style weapons).
EDIT:
I am really loving This Vibe for Sespech, even though I've always complained we've had too any 'Middle-Eastern' style cultures already. The use of giant scorpions instead of elephants is pure win, IMO.
Maybe not Scorpions - I'll save that for somewhere else more fitting (like the desert region of Katshaka). But I do love the idea of something else taking the place of elephants. Maybe some sort of dino could work (although I wanted to save sauroids for katshaka as well). Something Like THIS would be kinda cool, and not dirivative or saurian-based. I need to look through the Athas creatures - I am sure I can find something there I can adapt.
A people that really favor pole weapons would be interesting (spears, short spears, some doubleheaded pole weapons, etc..) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2018 : 05:54:39
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| Have you seen Game of Thrones? I just realized the picture I have in my head is very similar to the culture in Dorne. I picture the men and their fighting like Oberyn Martell in this scene, so we are on the same page here (pole weapons rather then swords like usual) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2018 : 12:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Have you seen Game of Thrones? I just realized the picture I have in my head is very similar to the culture in Dorne. I picture the men and their fighting like Oberyn Martell in this scene, so we are on the same page here (pole weapons rather then swords like usual)
Yes, I've seen it, and yes, its a good fit. Since they'd be on the border between jungle and the shaar, having them not carry swords or axes, but rather machete like weapons to be used as tools would also fit. Sespech was also a land of cavalry, so having horsemen would fit. However, if the horses have been eating the grass grown in the red earth, maybe its affected them as well. It might also fit quite well to not have this be "one people", but to have the population split between the people that possibly got transferred over to Abeir a year ago. Maybe even the two populations intermingled, and there's now some subtle shade between the red skin and the Chondathans with their mahogany skin and the other people of Sespech with their olive skin |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2018 : 18:53:55
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Hmmmmmm... I didn't want to create any sort of 'racial tension' thing. However, Ormpetarr seems to have been unaffected (mostly), while the rest of Sespech went bye-bye during the Spellplague, so folks in the capitol would still be 'normal colored' (and GAWD, did it feel uncomfortable typing that just now... which is why I wanted to avoid racial stuff).
Interesting - I had never thought about Sespechians having dark skin, and it was stupid for me not to. I pictured it having a bit of a Portuguese vibe (due mostly to Mapolq's work on the place). Its a good fit - a 'Moorish' (displaced Middle-Eastern) culture in a mostly Europe-like (Mediterranean) region. The Tashalar have the same vibe, and they are also Turami, and it makes sense the Turami got literally 'split' when Chessenta spear-headed into a mostly Turami-settled region.
So now I have to wonder, were the Jhaamdathans Chondathan (Dathite), Turami, or a mixture? I'm thinking a mixture would work best for us (hybridization often leads to superior mutations... like psionics).
I also found some interesting stuff regarding the history in SoFS, of all places. Apparently Steven Schend was actually using Jhaamdath (did he create it then?) to explain-away the confusing history in Old Empires. Many Vilhon scholars - purposely or not - have 'forgotten' Jhaamdath, and a lot of Jhaamdath's history has been respun as 'early Chondath' history (so the parts about Chondath trying to conquer Chessenta was really Jhaamdath, which makes sense now).
And thanks to your comment, I went looking to make sure I spelled Mapolq's name right, and looked at his Sespech thread, and found that I had discovered a few sites for him that I forgot to put into my own notes. Serendipitous, no? I have another fallen Realm (where Sespech is now - Maurmurra), as well a cool ruin (Castle of Beasts). SWEET.
And rereading the pertinent section in SotM, I found Nagarr had an old name, which I am now going to use as a new name for it (since they renamed it 'Kagarr' in 3e, and I hated that so kept both). Thus, now that the Sespechans are back from their interplaner field-trip, they've taken to calling the town by its original name - Yacla.
Getting back to the racial thing and other changes - the capitol is mostly olive-skinned (I always felt that was an odd turn-of-phrase... ah, well) like Sespechans are expected to be, but the returned folk are reddish, and although there has been some mixing (its only been about a decade), there is still a growing attitude of Apartheid (real or imagined). Further afield (literally), I just a little while ago took all the regional text and dropped it down to one layer, and now I see I am going to have a problem with The Golden Plains, which turned into Plaguewrought Lands in 4e. I had simply turned it back into what it was, but that's no longer optimal. I may rename it the 'Redgrass Plains', or some-such. Or, since the original grasses were yellow there, maybe they've been absorbing the red stuff over in Abeir so now they are orange? I hate using 'orange' because it also already a plant (and its one of the few damn colors that doesn't have an alternate name). Hmmmm... in heraldry a brownish-orange is know as Tenné. Perhaps the Tenné Plains? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2018 06:11:15 |
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2018 : 00:59:47
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| Also, the racial mix of Chondathans with their brownish/tawny skin and these red skinned folk may end up being the kind of blotchy that you were showing with the Star Wars folk. Rather than a smooth mixing of their color, maybe it end up with more of a mix of the red and brown/black. That might in fact be a significant look difference than say the folks that I put in Unther, and its because of the racial mixing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2018 : 07:16:44
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Well, the reddish skin tone is because of the strange mineral in the soil, which leeches into the water and everything else. I would assume that - if enough of the mineral 'came over' (which is what I plan), then the existing Sespechans (Ormpetarr, etc.) will gradually change as well. So the next generation nearly everyone will be red, unless they live in some remote place where the mineral hasn't tainted things yet. On the other hand, the mineral could eventually 'run out', because its source is probably back on Abeir (maybe) - I would think its a primordial (dead, alive, or sleeping).
So anyway, a culture like Dorne from GoT, with red skin, a military mindset, Moorish architecture, and instead of using elephants like Persia, I am thinking the use turtles of varying sizes. Smaller ones like 'pack animals', and really huge ones like (very slow) war elephants. Not sure though about turtles...I can't seem to make up my mind. Maybe something closer (looking) to a dragon-turtle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2018 22:39:45 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
4522 Posts |
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2018 : 12:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, the reddish skin tone is because of the strange mineral in the soil, which leeches into the water and everything else. I would assume that - if enough of the mineral 'came over' (which is what I plan), then the existing Sespechans (Ormpetarr, etc.) will gradually change as well. So the next generation nearly everyone will be red, unless they live in some remote place where the mineral has tainted things yet. On the other hand, the mineral could eventual 'run out', because its source is probably back on Abeir (maybe) - I would think its a primordial (dead, alive, or sleeping).
So anyway, a culture like Dorne from GoT, with red skin, a military mindset, Moorish architecture, and instead of using elephants like Persia, I am thinking the use turtles of varying sizes. Smaller ones like 'pack animals', and really huge ones like (very slow) war elephants. Not sure though about turtles...I can't seem to make up my mind. Maybe something closer (looking) to a dragon-turtle.
You're going for cool, and I'm picturing this
https://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.1189554522
Sespech was known for horses and they got them from the Shaar, so I'd stick with that for the average soldier. However, maybe the elites are riding some dire animals... dire lions, sabre tooth tigers, dire cheetah, dire antelopes, dire wolves, dire jackals/hyenas, dire warthogs, dire ostrich (or axebeaks)... and some may have winged mounts (giant vultures, griffons, wyverns, etc...). Maybe even riding some normal but weird animals.. zebras, giraffes, etc...
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2018 : 00:20:33
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I guess I'll stick with horses for their cavalry then.
Still I want some 'kewl' large critters for at least pack animals, or to take the place of war elephants. I kinda like THIS GUY - would probably work even better down in the Shaar (which is right next to Sespech), plus that illustraton is already WotC property! (MtG - "Siege Rhino"). But for the BIG turtles I was thinking something like THIS. Something I can say lives in The Nagawater now (and doesn't like nagas/Yuan-ti).
And this is completely unrelated, but I just found it and I have to use it somewhere - Putting giant statues to good use. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Great Reader
USA
8028 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2018 : 15:17:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess I'll stick with horses for their cavalry then.
Still I want some 'kewl' large critters for at least pack animals, or to take the place of war elephants. I kinda like THIS GUY - would probably work even better down in the Shaar (which is right next to Sespech), plus that illustraton is already WotC property! (MtG - "Siege Rhino"). But for the BIG turtles I was thinking something like THIS. Something I can say lives in The Nagawater now (and doesn't like nagas/Yuan-ti).
And this is completely unrelated, but I just found it and I have to use it somewhere - Putting giant statues to good use.
Yeah, I like that statue. It reminds me of what I was trying do do down in the Cliffside City of Peleverai with the concept of the elf and dwarf statue on the two sides.... except this drawing looks a heck of a lot better than what I did. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
4522 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 16:25:08
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I think of them like 'Chosen' - VERY mortal demigods... but still exarchs.
They weren't actually those gods - they never were. Here's how I see it: Ao's rules (or the way he set up the rules of the Crystal Sphere) is that 'Gods' cannot enter without permission (from him), but it does NOT cover the quasi-divine, since they can arise spontaneously (hero-worship, like what happened to the Red Knight). He may not want powerful beings from other spheres entering and wreaking havoc, but he still has to allow for a natural, organic religious growth on the world(s). Thus, in order to enter Realmspace, the Mulan gods pulled a scam - they put part of their divine essence into 'Mortal Vessels' (Chosen) and sent them through Arcane Space* to Toril. So rather than aspects/Avatars which we always assumed, those were just mortal demipowers who were sent, to represent them in Realmspace (and hopefully grow their power there, enough for them to eventually enter in-person).
The first generation were probably quite powerful, like Elminster or Khelben, but their bloodlines became diluted over time, as the power was 'spread thin'. The worship of the Pharonic and other Gods may have grown, but they were inadvertently counteracting it by allowing the power to get spread around, rather than just choosing one heir to it. So no gods, but still insanely powerful representatives of those gods (so picture a whole pack of 'Elminsters' fighting the Imaskari Artificers - it would have went very much like that battle between the Chosen and the Princes of Shade... and Tilverton got nuked).
*And since I think Arcane space is really just part of the ethereal, this makes even more sense - I never liked the whole 'the Egyptian Gods arrived by spaceship' take on that.
EDIT:
And to take this line of thought one step further - Gods CANNOT 'enter the realms'. Not in person. They never really have. The 'Avatars' we saw in the ToT were just that, and not really much more than Chosen (demipowers). Actual gods are NOT ALLOWED to walk around on Prime Material worlds, which is why they send avatars, and have Chosen. Ed has even said that although the gods are 'very active' in the Realms, most of the manifestations witnessed are just that - minor little things so that people know 'the gods are watching'. The god itself never really shows up. Even in the few cases we have where it appears so, those are just avatars, which are little more than a piece of the god's awareness stuffed into a fleshy vessel. It's just an extension of the God's thoughts; the God itself is still in the Outer Planes.
Thus, there really is almost no difference between a 'Chosen' and a 'Avatar', power-wise. Its just that one is far more autonomous than the other (and both CAN be killed, but they are tough as hell). In fact, to take this line of reasoning one step further, we might make the assumption that Avatars are ALWAYS 'Chosen' - living Proxies of a god. Anytime a God needs to create one (and they do so RARELY), it has to possess a mortal worshiper to create the Avatar. That could be another really cool way to curtail godly involvement and nerf their power a bit (because there are a TON of dangers involved in this, not the least of which is that they could lose that portion of their power if the Avatar is killed before they reclaim it, and 'good' gods would be loathe to do so, because reclaiming their power would mean the death of the vessel... which is always one of their more zealous followers).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2018 16:43:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
4522 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 20:14:08
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If the barrier blocked ALL gods, of ANY power level, then elves would not be allowed in Realmspace (according to the newest information in 5e).
I take that a step further though - EVERYTHING is 'part of God', and thus, divine. So it comes down to power-level - its just a power-level cap is all. If something has obtained 'deity' status somehow, it has to be vetted. Anything below 'lesser god' gets in (because demigods are just that - not quite gods). Come to think of it, this could even be one more reason why some uber-powerful beings choose NOT to become 'Gods' (be a deity). The rules completely change when you get to that tier (no direct participation in the Prime Material).
At no point in time did those supposed 'Mulan Gods' ever act like Gods, or showed power like that. they didn't even instantly defeat the Imaskari - it was a WAR. And then they had their arses handed to them by the Orcish Gods... when they are presumeably some fo the oldest and most powerful gods in existance.
No, those weren't who we think they were. Its better that way, anyway - makes them more 'Realmsian' (especially if we just say it was the avatar-energy that was sent to Toril, and it bonded with native Mulan when it got there). Eventually those religion caught on enough where the actual deities were able to have a presence, but like every other God (in this theoretical setup), they cannot act directly. All of Toril's gods must act through living Proxies, hence the need for 'Chosen' (or Saints, or exarchs, or whatever else you want to call them).
This also makes the 'Gods Kings' of Unther and Mulhorand much more like the classical Egyptian model - those were still 'mortals', but at the same time, worshiped as gods. They probably hoped to someday join the real pantheon. It seems the simplest solution here is to just say 'manifestation' is the Mulan term for what is called Avatars/Chosen elsewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
4522 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2018 : 19:54:15
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We usually do talk ourselves into the same corner... eventually. 
For elsewhere in the Realms I didn't mind (well, I DID, but didn't really have any say about it) all the 'Godly Intervention', but OE has always given us a way out, because the lore specifically states that those weren't the 'Gods themselves', which gives us a LOT of play-room.
So they send Autonomous avatars to Realmspace (they'd have to be autonomous so that the Godswall wouldn't block them - the connection to the original god had to be severed), and then when they arrive, they immediately merge with locals, creating the 'Greater Manifestations' (basically, Chosen). This means that although we have some RW deities (which a lot of people never liked), they were never really those beings - they were always Realms-specific powers. I suppose the eventual plan was to re-merge with the 'The Godhood' in the outer planes, once they were entrenched on Toril, but that never really came about - several of them 'jumped ship' for other pantheons, many were killed, and the few that were left - most left in disgust for home (the whole enterprise just fell apart).
I like that take - it makes them seem more FR-friendly, and it also allows me to broaden some of that to the Heartlands (what I theorized above - that the ACTUAL God may NOT step foot in the Prime Material, as per some 'ancient accords', or some-such). A God must act through proxies, which means if they want complete control, they have to send an avatar and merge it with a devout follower, but maintaining that sort of control 'burns out' the mortal's physical form, so it is usually better for them to just relinquish control back to the mortal (leaving them with the 'spark' of their power). This is how Saints/Chosen are created. Its almost like a Suel-Lich possession. The God 'uses them', and then leaves them behind, forever changed by the experience.
In Elminster's case, this could have been when he was Elmara. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Reimagining Old Empires
