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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  00:15:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gond = Goibhnie (Celtic Pantheon)

It could have been as simple, Sleyvas, as a high priest of Assur foundinga temple on that spot, and then a settlement grew up around the temple, and it was named after the god.

Although I lOVE equating ascended deities to dragons, because thats how it worked in Athas - somehow 'dragonyness' is the 'ladder' one can climb to achieve godhood, so all this harkens back to my theories that ALL of the primal beings were 'dragons' (or rather, Drækons, which is just the supernal word for 'creature of unestimable power').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 00:18:13
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  01:01:15  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gond indeed sounds distinctly like Goibhnie, but Zionil is just so visibly meant to sound "pseudo-Sumerian",for a lack of better word...and Lantan, from were Gond comes, speak with an Imaskari language...

It's possible "Zionil" (Enki?Or maybe just his equivalent), was a god very supportive of mortals, particulary humans. And helped the Durpari, his worshippers, as the Imaskari arose from them. To point he even stood against other gods, while supporting his adoptive "children".

(One is to note, that Enki, was the God who stood with humanity, teaching, and protecting humans, especially against other Gods.

In the Mesopotomian Flood myth, Gods tried to eradicate humanity numerous times (via plague, fire from the sky, monsters etc), but Enki allways saved humans, untill the Gods decreed Enki CANNOT help humans to survive the Flood. So Enki warned Atra-Hasis/Utnapishtim
indirectly, and warned him to build the ark, and latter convice Gods to spare him and his wife, with a burnt sacrifice.)

This could be twisted into something darker Enki supported Imaskari, even against other gods, or knowing he will die (from lack of worship). When dying, he would give the Talfiran Power Goibhnie his porfolio, in turn for carring for his ex-worshippers, in future, in a time of need. (Fall of Imaskar).

This changed Goibhnie, causing him to become the God we know as Gond. Or that's my take how to reconcile "Gond is Goibhnie", with "Zionil (proto-Gond) is Enki, and Lantan is an Imaskari suvivor state" XD

[EDIT]

Well, to be precise, Lantan would be mostly "culturally Imaskari" - the population I think, would be of more Talfiran descent by this point, and also would merge with the Gnomish culture, via Gonds absorbtion/impersonation of Nebelun, and possibly even his Celtic connections...

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2018 01:11:18
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sleyvas
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USA
7375 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  01:17:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
just to note, there aren't supposedly a lot of gnomes in Lantan (or there wasn't).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  03:31:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gnomes are tricksy - don't trust them. They probably live in the Feywild, 'just outside of Lantan'.

As for Gond/Goidhnie/Hephastus/Tvashtri/Enki - I think its all the same being, just with aspects in so many different pantheons. Notice him and Sune aren't on great terms? Sune = Venus spelled backwards. He's been a little peeved every since Tempus cuckolded him.

And if you've followed any of my logic regarding Aspects (and 'Ubertars'), then aspects don't even have to be all that much alike - they are reflections of how the faithful see 'their' god. So all those Smith-gods I just mentioned (and many more) could all be the same being, and yet still all sit in a room together having a conversation - they're just pantheon-specific Avatars.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 05:24:28
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7375 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  13:37:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gond = Goibhnie (Celtic Pantheon)

It could have been as simple, Sleyvas, as a high priest of Assur foundinga temple on that spot, and then a settlement grew up around the temple, and it was named after the god.

Although I lOVE equating ascended deities to dragons, because thats how it worked in Athas - somehow 'dragonyness' is the 'ladder' one can climb to achieve godhood, so all this harkens back to my theories that ALL of the primal beings were 'dragons' (or rather, Drækons, which is just the supernal word for 'creature of unestimable power').



I'm not especially fond of ascended deities being dragons... BUT.... when it comes to the Untheric Pantheon... I'm inclined to throw that to the side for many of the deities. Let me throw out some reasons why below.

Enlil (aka Anu as an alias) - looking in the old Deities & Demigods, this god has a shadow that looks like a dragon, and he's known to be able to summon ANY dragon type to serve him. This makes me lean towards him having some kind of ties to dragons, and possibly an "ascended dragon".

Marduk - in FR he IS Bahamut, which is in essence an ascended dragon of some sort.

Tiamat is in this pantheon.

When Nanna-Sin came back in a mortal form, its as a dragon turtle.

The "Millenium Dragon" (Maldraedior, a great wyrm blue dragon) is in Unther of all places, where he's BECOMING an ascended dragon. He's more than 4 thousand years old... which if we do some accounting corresponds ROUGHLY to around the time the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons arrived (not sure where to take that). Just a note that I find interesting with Maldraedior if you permit me.... he fights through "projected images"... because his body is becoming "mummified" OR as I would like to call it "Petrified". What some would call "project images", I'm calling semi-formed avatars. What some call his mummified body, I'm calling "godstone body".

In Chessenta, there is a red dragon, Tchazzar, who ascended to become a deity.

This one's a little bit more of a stretch, but Dahak is presumably also from the Untheric pantheon. Dahak is the 3 headed dragon spirit of death. If we accept the Dungeon 148 Wells of Darkness by Eric Boyd as canon (and I do), then Dahak was imprisoned in the wells of darkness by his pantheon. Since I personally think the Pit of Maleficence in Peleveran is ALSO tied to the Wells of Darkness, which is very near Unther, I would personally blame Gilgeam as pushing Dahak into the Well (because we are told that he forced many of the other gods out of the world, but he couldn't make Ishtar or Ramman leave).

The aforementioned idea of Assuran of the Three Thunders being an ascended blue dragon.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Girru and Utu aren't also some form of ascended fiery dragon (one represents fire, the other is the sun).

Of the other gods in the Untheric pantheon, I wouldn't be surprised if many aren't some form of "Fiendspawn" (note, I don't say devil or demon... as I don't think they follow the chain to Asmodeus nor are they NECESSARILY tanar'ri). Ereshkigal and Inanna are sisters and Ereshkigal is noted in the 1st edition Monster Manual 2 as a demon lord. I wouldn't be surprised if Inanna had some ties to succubi. In the same listing of demon lords there is a demon lord named Nergel who ALSO appears in Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels as a "prince of Unlife"... I think its fair to call him the Nergal we're familiar with whom Gilgeam buried up near Narfell. So, by these thought lines, we may have Inanna, Ereshkigal, and Nergal as "demons".

There's also another being known as Druaga in the Babylonian pantheon who is specifically called a "ruler of the devil world", and who is the enemy of the gods (notice that Tiamat is in Hell as well). So, we have this enmity between many of the gods and the beings of Hell. I wouldn't be surprised if Gargauth wasn't also an enemy of the Untheric Pantheon, and his slaying of Astaroth (a demon who infiltrated Hell as Diabolus according to Wells of Darkness) not tied to some enmity between the Untheric Pantheon. In fact, given that Druaga "instills his spirit" into things as a back door to protect himself if he dies... I wouldn't be surprised if he and Gargauth (ruler of the tenth layer?) aren't closely associated if not the same being. However, its also kind of odd, because these Untheric gods tend to be less about chaos and a lot about loyalty.

Of all the known Untheric gods, Ki is the only canon one I don't mention above as a dragon, demon, or devil.... but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she weren't an ascended dragon.

It may have been that the entities that the gods had to fashion to inhabit to cross into realmspace were dragon forms or some kind of being formed of abyssal energies (noting here that the abyss has some weird ties to the elemental chaos). At the same time, they probably gave these "beings" the ability to change form to mimic something awe inspiring. Now, I'm not saying that would be ALL the gods that came over... and this may be WHY the Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons are split... the Mulhorandi probably don't like dragon and demon lords, but they can make peace with them and not interact with them.... maybe the Mulhorandi manifestations took a different path, which is why they had the God-Kings to rule instead of ruling directly.

Finally, of these "gods" we see Ishtar and Ramman coming later. I suspect them to simply be interlopers. However, Ramman could also be an ascended dragon who simply learned from the "gods" while they were here.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4065 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  14:21:12  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have very deliberately made the mulho untheric pantheon not true gods they are all only demigods which means they are just people with super powers rather than quasi material beings that occupy multiple planes of existence.

It also means i dont have to deal with gods of similar names and portfolios because that has no bearing for my demigods - the are just people with super powers.

I do however like finding new gods to include so i will try and add anshar in somewhere. Ive kept assuran and amarduk as two separate people from two separate pantheons/regions. Amarduk is from unther, assuran is from chessenta.

The real world histories are totally disconnected for me. These people came from elsewhere at some unknown point in time from elsewhere, after that the only thing that matters is what happens on Toril. Their history begins in the year before imaskars fall.

Thats the approach ive taken quite deliberately because ive seen too many conversations of x god is really y god is really z god is really v god is really w god is really x god bases on real world mythology that ultimately hinders development more than it helps. By seoarating the two we have much more freedom to create sensible stories and histories based on realmslore rather than realworld misinterpretation of events.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  14:57:30  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Enlil (aka Anu as an alias) - looking in the old Deities & Demigods, this god has a shadow that looks like a dragon, and he's known to be able to summon ANY dragon type to serve him. This makes me lean towards him having some kind of ties to dragons, and possibly an "ascended dragon".
................

There's also another being known as Druaga in the Babylonian pantheon who is specifically called a "ruler of the devil world", and who is the enemy of the gods (notice that Tiamat is in Hell as well). So, we have this enmity between many of the gods and the beings of Hell. I wouldn't be surprised if Gargauth wasn't also an enemy of the Untheric Pantheon, and his slaying of Astaroth (a demon who infiltrated Hell as Diabolus according to Wells of Darkness) not tied to some enmity between the Untheric Pantheon. In fact, given that Druaga "instills his spirit" into things as a back door to protect himself if he dies... I wouldn't be surprised if he and Gargauth (ruler of the tenth layer?) aren't closely associated if not the same being. However, its also kind of odd, because these Untheric gods tend to be less about chaos and a lot about loyalty.



Well, Anu was originally separate from Enlil, and is considered in general Enlil's father.

Curiously, the Desert of Desolation stated the faith in Anu, is/ws the core faith of the Durpari, they forced uppon the Raurindi, when they arrived from the south.

From this, I headcanoned Anu as being an ancient Durpari deity, possibly slain by Imaskari. Them being enslaving Anu's worshippers from another world (and others), would be just a further part of their revenge, for abandoning them in a part of need. And to fyrther prove how they suprassed their gods.

But with dragon, you might be really in Tiamat's fitrsborn - http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/adnd/monsters/adnd_monster_an-ur.html" target="_blank">An-Ur. (From the Dragon magazine)

quote:
An-Ur is the oldest of Tiamat's children. Legends say that it sprang into being from Tiamat's first breath. Despite existing for hundreds of centuries, An-Ur has steadfastly ignored the ongoing struggle between the courts of Tiamat and Bahamut.


An-Ur is directly named after Anu, spelled "An" in Sumerian, were he was seen as the son of Tiamat (or Nammu). This is also the case in some translation of Enuma Elish, were instead of being Apsu's and Tiamat's great granchildren, Anu and Ki are just the third set of siblings born from Apsu's and Tiamat's union.

About Druaga, he was essentially the Babylonian adaptation of Ahriman/Angra-Mainyu, Druaga's name possibly derivd from the concept of "Druj" (also having the Young Avestan derivation draoga and Old Persian derivation drauga - extremelly close to Druaga), closelly connected to Ahriman. And indeed, in the original Deitoes and Demigods, there are clues the writters intended Druaga to be Asmodeus - Druaga has a "Ruby Club", that is his symbol.

(compare Asmodeus and his Ruby Rod, which was also in old editions, the symbol of Asmodeus).

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal



The real world histories are totally disconnected for me. These people came from elsewhere at some unknown point in time from elsewhere, after that the only thing that matters is what happens on Toril. Their history begins in the year before imaskars fall.



Well, I can fully understand that, but I proposed the connection of Assuran to Enlil, specifically as it fit's your connection with the Gilgeam - Assuran conflict, as well as the Ramman - Assuran conflict. And would explain the "Law" related parts of the Assuran's portfolio/area of influence (poetic justice, vengence), which could be somehow related to Enlil's Law portfolio. That it fit's the reall details about Assur, is just a cherry on top XD

But I wonder dazzlerdal, what do you think of my ideas (I mean the ones on the previous page, not the Zionil-Enki one, which is a separate, if interesting train of thought).

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2018 15:06:44
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7375 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  15:23:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Forgive Daz, but I have to make this note. While it is godly in nature, its more about Dun-Tharos and how it might fit into Untheric lore.

From a canon perspective as well, it occurs to me that Nergal is specifically buried at the "Great Barrow" according to LEoF, which is way up in the Rawlinswood area... actually kind of near Dun-Tharos... and he's buried AROUND the time that Dun-Tharos is founded by the Nars, because he dies in the Orcgate Wars. Dun-Tharos aka Narathmault aka "The Dark Pit" (and aka in my homebrew Bheuristahl)... a place of utter evil and ties to demons.... Nergel/Nergal as a "demon lord". His whole family was buried with him as well. You know if the few of these Untheric gods that I'm mentioning were "some kind of demon created from elemental sources"... and that's only Nergel/Nergal and Ereshkigal and MAYBE Inanna... and I'm seeing Ereshkigal splitting and going south after the war with Imaskar but before the orcgate wars.... if the element that they were created from wasn't fire/earth/water/air, but rather negative energy from the negative material plane... we could have our first explanation for "undead gods". It could also explain Orcus' interest in the area with Narfell.

If we say that "the Dark Pit" also has ties to "the wells of darkness" and then have this "body" of Nergel/Nergal somehow hidden away in it... we may have something of an origin to the headscratcher that is Tenebrous (i.e. vestiges and the wells of darkness have ties). OR going another path... maybe the dark pit/Dun-Tharos/Narathmault SIMILAR to the wells of darkness has its own connection to Shattered Night, and its a big old prison for demons, devils, and other entities that's buried in the underdark of Toril. Given the idea of the "Hidden Layer" of Eltab and the idea of demoncysts... there's something useful here. It needs refinement though.

So, maybe there are links from this Great Barrow and Dun-Tharos. After all, we don't know how BIG the dungeon beneath the Rawlinswood actually is in the underdark. Maybe the "rotting man" who served Talona had some other motives that we won't know about now.

From Lost Empires of Faerun, page 69
GREAT BARROW
Just off the Great Road, near the southernmost portion of the Rawlinswood in the Great Dale, lies the Great Barrow, a massive burial mound ringed by numerous smaller mounds. The Great Barrow was built in the heady days of the First Untheric Empire as a tomb for the slain Untheric god Nergal. Gilgeam oversaw the god’s lavish burial and sealed Nergal’s still-living family and servants inside the lesser tombs surrounding that of the deity. Once all the tombs had been buried under earthen hills, Gilgeam slaughtered the builders, raised them as undead crypt things, and set them to guard Nergal and his family. Travelers in the area of the Great Barrow often report encountering skeletal undead that choke and gasp as if desperately trying to breathe. Whether these creatures are Gilgeam’s appointed crypt-things or the restless undead remnants of Nergal’s family remains a mystery.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Feb 2018 15:33:50
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4065 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2018 :  15:39:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like almost everything people write, even the real world mythology (although i dont use it i find it amusing), the only stuff that irks me is linking one god to every other god and using that to explain events in toril.

I have written that Gilgeam claims that Enlil adopted him before he departed thus making Gilgeams claim to the throne the strongest.
It may be amusing to have Assuran already adopted by Enlil to increase rivalry between the two, but given that i have separated the untheric and akanic pantheons entirely i cannot see how i could work the adoption in.
Ive already decided not to make the pantheons related in anyway except for a supposed kinship between Enlil and Anu (brothers perhaps) if only to further disconnect it from real world mythology and to stop my head hurting.


In my Raurin page i have proto mulhorand and unther kingdoms formed in that region before they abandoned it to the encroaching desert and headed southwest to current locations.

Keep throwing ideas out there, im always looking for nee stuff to steal.




Good catch sleyvas on the dun tharos nergal thing. I had pegged the death of nergal to a post orcgate wars cleanup and i think that should still stand but his death may have affected the nearby prison.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4065 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  21:01:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Added in a loose tie that E-Nlil once embraced Ass-Uraqn as a brother and Ass-Uraqn was widely believed to be next in line to succeed E-Nlil should the worst happen.

However Ass-Uraqn didn't want to be ruler and when the worst did happen he never pressed his claim. Thus he was really miffed when Gil-Geamesq betrayed him and helped Ram-Manu oust him from Unther (Gil-Geamesq believed Ass-URaqn was going to press his claim to the throne thanks to his paranoid delusions).



Now trying to link Bane into Chessenta and Assuran.

I think pre 700 DR Bane will be trying to establish a mini kingdom in Akanu, Ass-Uraqn will thwart that plan and the two will have a huge showdown atop Mount Thulbane from which neither are ever seen again.

The trouble with the League of Samathar keeps Unther from doing anything about it. Ass-Uraqn might be the cause of the terrible storm in 677 DR that sinks Unther's fleet on its way to the Wizards' Reach.

Now Bane creates names Stellac Benadi Imperceptor in 735 DR so I'm thinking the showdown between Bane and Ass-URaqn occurs after that (but not long after). It is the disappearance/death of Bane that is the catalyst for him achieving true godhood (worked for Tchazzar and he was alive at the time and active in Chessenta as well trying to make his own kingdom).

I'm thinking Ass-Uraqn has a set of gloves that allow him to call terrible storms. I'm thinking of mixing the Staff of Fury with the Gloves of Lightning to create the Gauntlets of Vengeance. An old Imaskari item that Ass-URaqn had enhance over the millennia. Every time someone injures the wielder they gain a charge. That charge can be used to send lightning at someone nearby but if charged enough then it can be used to call storms of potentially unlimited power (depending upon the number of strikes against the wielder).

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  12:13:08  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha, I'm happy you liked enough my idea to incorporate it, and I like how it was done

And I agree Unther might had influence in the Raurin region, and I think part of the proto-Untheric population never gone to Unther, but moved south, to Zakhara, as I mentioned years ago.

The language of Zakhara, Midani, is stated to derive from Untheric, and according to Thomas M. Costa “Speaking in Tongues” article, the Midani languages branched off from the other Untheric languages by mixing with the Jannti languages of genies.

An aspect of Ereshkigal, might have moved to Zakhara, or at least Sahu, seeing the Isle of Necromancers, Sahu, has the ruins of a city named "Ereshkigal". As well having a city named "Uruk".

(Although some have suggested the Necromancers, as well as Nog and Kadar, might have been connected to Imaskar, so possibly Ereshkigal was on Toril before other Mesotamian, which might had been why she was cursed, and stuck as a Lamia noble in the first place, but that's rather incompatible with your lore, so it's just a bit of my musing XD)

But continuing from that - I just think Anu, is the fairly possible to have come to Toril way before other Mesopotamian gods - as the Desert of Desolation firmly painted the faith in Anu, as the native religion of Durpari, they forced upon the Raurindi after arriving in the Raurin Desert.

From Desert of Desolation:

quote:
The Raurindi/Durpari Conflict

The Durpari saw the re-establishment of trade across the desert as a way to return to their her-itage. Traders to the core, they had plied their wares in the At his river valley before the curse had made it barren. They saw caravan trade between the remaining oases as the manner in which they could return. They were driven by two motives beyond those of trade alone: as members of the one god Anu, they were sworn to the destruction of the idols of the older gods of the Raurindi, and they were secretly ashamed that they had deserted the land to the Raurindi. Thus they came back to the desert with the glint of gold in their eyes, and a hatred of the Raurindi and all they stood for in their hearts. While the Raurindi had protected the temples of the old gods, the Durpari's were bent on their destruction. As the Durpari swept into Bralizzar, the Dustwall Mountains, and the Desert of Desolation, they pushed the Rarindi before them...or destroyed them.

The Durpari

The Durpari are a civilized people who are traders to the core. Because of this, they have developed great cunning in business, and their commitment to the truth is less than total. They prefer to talk, rather than fight, though they have some of the most fearsome troops in the southern lands, their dreaded Lancers and Airlancers. It was the Durpari who established trade through the deserts of the south, and it was the Durpari who re-established it when trade became nearly impossible following the curse of Amun-Re. The Durpari are the only group of people who venture through the Desert of Desolation with regularity. Although they often go on trading missions, they prefer to remain at home, usually at an oasis fortress or other trade center. The Durpari worship one god. whom they call Anu. Their religion deems as heretical the worship of many gods, and they are duty-bound to destroy idols and temples dedicated to the "old" religions. The Durpari Airlancers fly on pegasi they breed for the purpose. They can communicate with their beasts in very complex ways.

The Raurindi And The Dervishes

As a people, the Raurindi became nearly extinct when their lands turned to desert millennia ago. Those who were left became desert nomads, a dark people, rough from the desert winds and sands. Hot-tempered and emotion-al, they do not generally care for outsiders. They are somber, pessimistic, and almost always bad-mannered, but they are scrupulously honest and completely fearless. To their friends, they are generous and forgiving, except of a personal insult. Many Raurindi have since been assimilated into the Durpari, particularly in areas within and bordering the great deserts. Most of these have converted to the "True Faith" of the Durpari, who worship the one god Anu. Neverthe-less, some of the Raurindi cling secretly to the old ways. Called Dervishes, they are aliens, outcasts, and even outlaws wherever they go. In fact, because they feel that their god has turned away from them in relegating them to the desert, not only do they worship the old religions, but they now fanatically protect the religious freedoms and holy places of all peo-ples, whatever their practices or beliefs. They hate robbers of graves and tombs, and protect such places from "infidels," tending to make encampments nearby. If they find a holy item or place has been looted or damaged, they will
fighting to the death. This has spawned a desert proverb: "Woe be unto him who puts blood in the eye of the Dervish."


So to recoile the latter lore with Adama, I moved the Raurindi/Durpari religous and cultural conflict to extremelly dostant past, before Imaskar formed or very early on it's history, when the Durpari fairly recently colonized the Raurin region.

(I basically copied it from other works doing it, like Warhammer 40,000, moved a lot of the early edition elements, to the etting distant past ie the 31th to early 32 millennium.)

But again, I also think Anu, or at least the aspect that came before –2489 DR, was dead by this point, or could be as good as dead, starving from the lack of worship, and possibly bound to the Prime Material plane.

Something for Sleyvas though, as I think I found more possible fiends. I think A'tar might had been a female guise of Astaroth.

A'tar is obviously named after the deity Attar, who was the male version of the Semitic goddess Astarte.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_(god)

Curiously though, the name Astaroth, is just the Hebrew version of the name Astarte, and the entity became male (possibly because of Attar?), through confusion, but because of it, Astaroth is often thought to be a demon that switches sexes.

So I think if Astaroth in his masculine form, is known as Astaroth (which in reall life was feminine), he could be as well known when in a female aspect, as A'tar.

A'tar has elemets of Astarte, being a lustful goddess, that cheats on her husband Kozah (who in this role, seems to play the Role of Ba'al Haddad, and whose wife was Astarte).

In generall, I think both Amaunator (or rather, then "Amun") and Inanna, subsumed aspects of Astaroth as A'tar, which ended up corrupting them, possibly as some part of Astaroth's, or Gargauth's plan. (depending when Gargauth killed Astaroth.)

Amaunator had some lawful evil tendencies, as his priest could be only Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil in 2e.

So my take with him, is that Amun subsumed some elements of A'tar, and became known among Gur as Amun-A'tar, which overtime, evolved into Amaunator.

(Amaunator was even kinda identified with Amon the vestige in the 3.5 Tome of Magic, as it was told if using Amon in the Forgotten Realms, he should be substituted with Amaunator. And Amon, even in the neutral setting, hates one curious vestige - Karsus).

Possibly later, Inanna took the alias of A'tar, but it ended up corrupting her, partially eing what caused her split into herself, and Ishtar (like of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba), which corrupted Inanna so visibly, she's one of the few deities taking residence in Baator.

(Astaroth was a Demon Lord, but one masquerading as a devil, and I think it could be again Gargauth behind all of this).

But that's just my whole take on all of this

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Mar 2018 12:46:13
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  13:04:42  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well im definitely not having Anu arrive earlier.

The Anu/Adama thing ive pegged to an Imaskari god (yes the commoners and slaves had them, only the artificers were atheistic) which went south after imaskars fall. The imaskar diaspora saw the slaves head back to their homelands (including peoplr that would become the durpari) but it was not immediate. The slaves stayed in raurin ruled over by the proto mulan kingdoms. The proto mulan of course venerated their heroes (anu, enlil, re, gilgeam, assuran, marduk, etc) and so when the desert came and people fled they took the worship of mulan and imaskari gods with them.

Thus the imaskari gods name was mixed with anu to create Adama. The durpari of course influenced raurin when they returned as traders and the raurindi approximated this adama concept to anu.


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Baltas
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Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  14:19:39  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I'm not forcing you, just stating my take on this...

And I'm happy enough you use ekements of my ideasat all :)

Adama/Anu being a native Imaskari god, before the Mulan god Anu is a possibility, seing such suff happened earlier.

(Adama though, curiously, also comes from a Sumerian word - meaning either the soil/earth (compare to Akkadian Adamatu - "Dark Red Soil"), Adama can also mean/describe the first group of humans, created by Enki.

Yes the name Adam, and the biblical character of the same, as well in part his story, ultimately derive from that).

It's also possible that Anu and Adama were just the Imaskari/Durpari Gods Heaven and Earth respectively, maybe even just names/aspects of Akadi and Grumbar (compare Teylas and Etugen), who overtime, combined with the memory of the Mulan Anu into a God of everything (of heaven and earth), and possibly some other influences, like the Padhrab faith, or the Zakharan belief in Fate.

Or it's possible Adama was already a god connected to Sky and Earth, and Anu just subsumed him.

Scott Bennie (creator of the Old Empires sourcebook) also added a group of gods that he suggested could have been worshipped by the Imaskari once. Among them, Suleo:
quote:
Suleo, Mountainfist. Greater Power. The king of mountain, storm, avalanche, and earthquake (he has a
large portfolio) was seen as an aloof uncaring god. Suleo is said to have been so offended by the evil of
humanity that he built the Pillarmount so he could rise above their concerns. Suleo’s shrines are built
deep in the earth, and are said to be filled with riches to placate his wrath. His symbol is a
thundercrowned mountainpeak. Suleo was Lawful Neutral. Suleo has long been forgotten.


Who fit's as a god of heaven and earth (storm, mountains and earthquakes), and he could have been named Adama (with Suleo being his Addercurse alias/name?), before Anu subsumed him.

Also, I once linked it, but I think you may find Scott Bennie's apocrypha useful:
http://kingstears.tripod.com/downloads/OldEmpiresMay2003withbackground.pdf

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Mar 2018 14:54:44
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  16:30:11  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ive been going through all the old empires stuff with a fine comb. The amethyst sodality is a good idea.

I dont think adama or anu is the original name of whatever the imaskari worshipped, it has changed and corrupted over time and i may use a god tom costa created for murghom.

I like to keep the religious stuff fluid and ever changing. Without direct interventiin (which i dont allow) names and ideals get corruoted over time and so the gods of today may be unrecognisable from the gods of the past

The exception to this are the mulan gods who are actually living with the mulan so they remain fairly static.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  16:36:17  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And apologies if i sound brusque, just imagine that everything i write is done so with a smile (because it always is)

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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  17:37:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Haha, I'm happy you liked enough my idea to incorporate it, and I like how it was done

And I agree Unther might had influence in the Raurin region, and I think part of the proto-Untheric population never gone to Unther, but moved south, to Zakhara, as I mentioned years ago.

The language of Zakhara, Midani, is stated to derive from Untheric, and according to Thomas M. Costa “Speaking in Tongues” article, the Midani languages branched off from the other Untheric languages by mixing with the Jannti languages of genies.

An aspect of Ereshkigal, might have moved to Zakhara, or at least Sahu, seeing the Isle of Necromancers, Sahu, has the ruins of a city named "Ereshkigal". As well having a city named "Uruk".

(Although some have suggested the Necromancers, as well as Nog and Kadar, might have been connected to Imaskar, so possibly Ereshkigal was on Toril before other Mesotamian, which might had been why she was cursed, and stuck as a Lamia noble in the first place, but that's rather incompatible with your lore, so it's just a bit of my musing XD)

But continuing from that - I just think Anu, is the fairly possible to have come to Toril way before other Mesopotamian gods - as the Desert of Desolation firmly painted the faith in Anu, as the native religion of Durpari, they forced upon the Raurindi after arriving in the Raurin Desert.

From Desert of Desolation:

quote:
The Raurindi/Durpari Conflict

The Durpari saw the re-establishment of trade across the desert as a way to return to their her-itage. Traders to the core, they had plied their wares in the At his river valley before the curse had made it barren. They saw caravan trade between the remaining oases as the manner in which they could return. They were driven by two motives beyond those of trade alone: as members of the one god Anu, they were sworn to the destruction of the idols of the older gods of the Raurindi, and they were secretly ashamed that they had deserted the land to the Raurindi. Thus they came back to the desert with the glint of gold in their eyes, and a hatred of the Raurindi and all they stood for in their hearts. While the Raurindi had protected the temples of the old gods, the Durpari's were bent on their destruction. As the Durpari swept into Bralizzar, the Dustwall Mountains, and the Desert of Desolation, they pushed the Rarindi before them...or destroyed them.

The Durpari

The Durpari are a civilized people who are traders to the core. Because of this, they have developed great cunning in business, and their commitment to the truth is less than total. They prefer to talk, rather than fight, though they have some of the most fearsome troops in the southern lands, their dreaded Lancers and Airlancers. It was the Durpari who established trade through the deserts of the south, and it was the Durpari who re-established it when trade became nearly impossible following the curse of Amun-Re. The Durpari are the only group of people who venture through the Desert of Desolation with regularity. Although they often go on trading missions, they prefer to remain at home, usually at an oasis fortress or other trade center. The Durpari worship one god. whom they call Anu. Their religion deems as heretical the worship of many gods, and they are duty-bound to destroy idols and temples dedicated to the "old" religions. The Durpari Airlancers fly on pegasi they breed for the purpose. They can communicate with their beasts in very complex ways.

The Raurindi And The Dervishes

As a people, the Raurindi became nearly extinct when their lands turned to desert millennia ago. Those who were left became desert nomads, a dark people, rough from the desert winds and sands. Hot-tempered and emotion-al, they do not generally care for outsiders. They are somber, pessimistic, and almost always bad-mannered, but they are scrupulously honest and completely fearless. To their friends, they are generous and forgiving, except of a personal insult. Many Raurindi have since been assimilated into the Durpari, particularly in areas within and bordering the great deserts. Most of these have converted to the "True Faith" of the Durpari, who worship the one god Anu. Neverthe-less, some of the Raurindi cling secretly to the old ways. Called Dervishes, they are aliens, outcasts, and even outlaws wherever they go. In fact, because they feel that their god has turned away from them in relegating them to the desert, not only do they worship the old religions, but they now fanatically protect the religious freedoms and holy places of all peo-ples, whatever their practices or beliefs. They hate robbers of graves and tombs, and protect such places from "infidels," tending to make encampments nearby. If they find a holy item or place has been looted or damaged, they will
fighting to the death. This has spawned a desert proverb: "Woe be unto him who puts blood in the eye of the Dervish."


So to recoile the latter lore with Adama, I moved the Raurindi/Durpari religous and cultural conflict to extremelly dostant past, before Imaskar formed or very early on it's history, when the Durpari fairly recently colonized the Raurin region.

(I basically copied it from other works doing it, like Warhammer 40,000, moved a lot of the early edition elements, to the etting distant past ie the 31th to early 32 millennium.)

But again, I also think Anu, or at least the aspect that came before –2489 DR, was dead by this point, or could be as good as dead, starving from the lack of worship, and possibly bound to the Prime Material plane.

Something for Sleyvas though, as I think I found more possible fiends. I think A'tar might had been a female guise of Astaroth.

A'tar is obviously named after the deity Attar, who was the male version of the Semitic goddess Astarte.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attar_(god)

Curiously though, the name Astaroth, is just the Hebrew version of the name Astarte, and the entity became male (possibly because of Attar?), through confusion, but because of it, Astaroth is often thought to be a demon that switches sexes.

So I think if Astaroth in his masculine form, is known as Astaroth (which in reall life was feminine), he could be as well known when in a female aspect, as A'tar.

A'tar has elemets of Astarte, being a lustful goddess, that cheats on her husband Kozah (who in this role, seems to play the Role of Ba'al Haddad, and whose wife was Astarte).

In generall, I think both Amaunator (or rather, then "Amun") and Inanna, subsumed aspects of Astaroth as A'tar, which ended up corrupting them, possibly as some part of Astaroth's, or Gargauth's plan. (depending when Gargauth killed Astaroth.)

Amaunator had some lawful evil tendencies, as his priest could be only Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil in 2e.

So my take with him, is that Amun subsumed some elements of A'tar, and became known among Gur as Amun-A'tar, which overtime, evolved into Amaunator.

(Amaunator was even kinda identified with Amon the vestige in the 3.5 Tome of Magic, as it was told if using Amon in the Forgotten Realms, he should be substituted with Amaunator. And Amon, even in the neutral setting, hates one curious vestige - Karsus).

Possibly later, Inanna took the alias of A'tar, but it ended up corrupting her, partially eing what caused her split into herself, and Ishtar (like of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba), which corrupted Inanna so visibly, she's one of the few deities taking residence in Baator.

(Astaroth was a Demon Lord, but one masquerading as a devil, and I think it could be again Gargauth behind all of this).

But that's just my whole take on all of this





Hmmmm, let me digest on some of this a moment.

I definitely agree on the Ereshkigal going south thing. I had not realized the Uruk city name was also a tie to Akkadian lore until you just mentioned it, but I had tied the city of Ereshkigal lore. I basically see her and Inanna not being willing to be in the same area ruling after past history, so after her arrival, she and possibly other gods headed south. I think having many of the forgotten gods of Zakhara "working together" to some degree in the ruined kingdoms of the Nog and Kadar and having involvement with the Necromancer Kings of old would make sense. For instance, Ereshkigal, Kiga the Predator, Ragarra, Shajar, and Migal would make sense together to me. Of these, Ereshkigal is death, Kiga is a huntress, Ragarra is a goddess of the wild savagery of the jungle, Shajar is a Ragarra's husband and a more peaceful god of rivers, and Migal is both a "mentor of the gods, who has winged assassins to enforce his orders". I have no clue where Migal comes from other than his entry in land of fate... but he does fit the concept. Other gods that later show up in Unther and the Shaar, such as Ramman or Khass, may have also had some time here.

I agree that Amon and Amaunator are related, and basically I think Amon somehow got himself released from the place where vestiges go... kind of like Tenebrous did... I had been courting the idea of Amon and At'ar being two halves of the being that is Amaunator a while back. The Dawn Cataclysm doesn't just have to involve Tyche being split into two sides after all.... and perhaps the "darkness swallowed Amon".... I wouldn't throw Astaroth into that mix though. The more I've studied the central American mythologies, the more I think Ed and company intended the story of their being multiple ages and multiple suns. In other words, we know of ONE shadow epoch in realmspace... there may have been earlier ones. Each of these may have involved a different "sun god". Hell, for all we know, the idea that Abeir and Toril are different "phased" worlds could just be absolutely wrong. The sky may be different and such simply because they're different eras, and what we thought was two worlds colliding was simply two timestreams interacting. This could explain some of the godly "rebooting" as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Mar 2018 17:47:04
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Baltas
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Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  03:51:02  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-dazzlerdal

Don't worry I didn't think you came of as brusque.

And about Murghom religion, by Tom Costa, I couldn't find anything...do you maybe mean Muham from the fanmade Murghom Murghôm Campaign Setting?
http://dnd.merchi.org/murghom.pdf

- sleyvas

Interesting ideas. If we try to tie the gods of Nog and Kadar, to Mulan deities, we can get some interesting things -

- Ragarra and Shajar, can come of as gender switched Sobek and Taweret, especially that Tawaret was seen as more benevolent latter on. Ragarra also resebles Ammit to a degree. It's possible that Ragarra and Shajar might be children of Mulhorandi deities with Archfey,or Primal Spritis, seeing the Realms version of Sobek, was established in the 4E Chessenta article as actually the son of Set, and an Archfey, who is paralell to the Egyptian Sobek.

Although on the other hand, one could say overally Ragarra, as winged savage goddess of chaos, asociated with chilbirth (her symbol is a baby crocodile) resembles arguably Lamashtu the most.

- Kiga has paralells to both Bast (in her most savage aspect) and Sekhmet, wo were themselves at times conflated. The panther aspect though, reminds me of Bast, because of Marvel though XD

- Migal is interesting, as his name does resemble those of several Mesopotamian deities, with the -gal part of his name - most notably Nergal, Gugal (Great Riches, a title of Marduk.), Ningal (a goddess of reeds), Manungal/Nungal (a Goddess of the Underworld, who held the tablet of life, carried out judgement on the wicked), Ereshkigal herself etc. Migal also reminds me of Jergal, but that may be just me XD

Of course, it's quite possible many of these, were just native Zakharan gods, who joined with Ereshkigal, and others.

[EDIT]

Another idea, might that even some of the 8 Gods, are actually Mulan Gods, who became "enlightened". Hakiyah specifically, reminds me of the Goddess Asherah, due to her connection to sea, as well both being mother goddesses of their religion (Hakiyah, also contains the the Semitic "Yah" elements, short for Yahweh and Asherah was seen as Yahweh's wife). Asherah was known in the Akkadian and Babilonian pantheon as Ashratum, and identified/seen as the same as Antum/Antu/Anutu, them being seen as the wife of Anu.

Antu, as Anutu, appeared somewere in D&D materials, but I'm not sure were, it seems somewere in 1E, or 2E materials...

(Antu was well as seen as the mother of Inanna/Ishtar and Ereshkigal at times).

Hakiyah though, might also be a Celestial Paragon, that reached the status of a Power/Deity though, seeing -el in Angelic or Hebrew names, could be substituted as times for '-yah (again, from Yahweh).

Edited by - Baltas on 02 Mar 2018 04:38:48
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  07:53:30  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tom did quite a lot of deity articles in faiths and avatars style that never made it into publication so im mining those for ideas as well. There is an insect god i think which fits great with my spellweaver influence for mulhorand, and there is another sun god in murghom/semphar that was part of the mulhorandi pantheon when it first formed but i will be changing it to an imaskari god.

Im pretty sure that murghom and semphar were the home of slave races conquered by imaskar

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Baltas
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Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  14:26:25  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the thing is, I google searched (via the (site: function), but I didn't find any article on Murghom by Tom on the archived Realms-L site (http://www.secretsofthearchmages.net/Forums/Main_Pages.html)(which saddly, will go down tommorow - http://www.secretsofthearchmages.net/), and on net. Can you send me the article?

With "not-Anu", I', not sure if he would be a Murghom (Muhjuri) deity, as as he would be still seemingly the main god of Durpari, and non-Artificer Imaskari. Then again, there are clues Durpari are related to the populations of Semphar and Murghom (Muhjuri). (The Grand History of the Realms states Imaskar was a civilisation founded by Durpari.)
(Curiously, the Durpari warlord whose actions kickstarted largelly the start of Imaskar, Nemrut, is named after the Biblical figure of Nimrod - a spelling of his name essentially - who was a king in Mespotomania, of disputed historical identity.)

With the sun deity, I'm not sure if the pre-Mulan/pre-Mulhorand God, would be Amuanator.

I think the Gurri/Gur took from the region the worship of Amuanator into Netheril, while Amaunator's worship among Muhjuri (Semphar and Murghom), and Durpari was subsumed by Re.

There some clues for it - in the Anauroch campaign book, written by Ed himself, suggested to use Horus-Re manifestation as an avatar of A'tar (a corruption of Amaunator?), and the 4E article of Chessenta, had the Mulan of Chesenta recognize the return of Amuanator, as the return of their old god Hokatep (Horus-Re) - only that Horus-Re went missing very recently. Which I think could be interpret Amaunator was the return of a god seemigly long subsumed into Horus-Re.

But that's just my idea with it
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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  19:16:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to note on the Amaunator / Ra / Lathander / At'ar / Tezca / Horus-Re / Utu, etc... front. In the same year, we had both Utu and Ra die in the orcgate wars and "Ra" give his power over to Horus to make him become "Horus-Re".... and the sun DOES "eclipse". We effectively may have seen a new "death of the sun" but it quickly recovered fast enough because some other "sun god" was forced to step up quickly. Ironically, we don't see Utu handing off his "sun powers" to another individual in Unther.... so maybe they went somewhere else.

Ironically, there seems to be multiple sun god "types", and we've had discussions on there being 3 different times of the sun and having things rotate between them. I kind of wonder if its not close to that but different. Perhaps there are always 3 different sun gods active (a lawful one, an evil one, and a good one), and so long as one still survives, the sun still shines.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  21:44:31  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trying to develop mourktar a bit.

Ots home to two large temples one to assuran one to Bane.

Its built on a sandy plain in an area where farming is quite difficult because the winds strip away vegetation.

I would imagine building a city in this place is quite a stubborn undertaking.


I know that there was a mourktar around 241 DR because Faerndar was from there and became the first to refuse the post of magister (i think).



That being said i think id like mourktar to be the settlement founded by Assuran so in order to allow that what if mourktar was originally an army camp settlement. Assuran left Unther in the second century DR and moved to Akanu but Akanu was part of the greater Untheric Empire at this time so im thinking he was a nomadic freedom fighter that bedeviled the forces of Gilgeam.

Mourktar was the name of his encampment where his band of freedom fighters lives and it wandered all over chessenta.
The laat place of Mourktar was in the shadow of Mount Thulbane when he was cornered by the Warlord and his army. The two forces clash and slaughter one another and the two generals disappear up the mountain in a thunder storm.

The followers of each army settle on the present site of mourktar making it a holy city for worship of both assuran and bane with relics of both warriors found nearby.


I am thinking i might have mourktar originally be called ma'atusthar which roughly translates as the soul throne which im thinking might be named for the throne of Akanu and was once the throne of Imaskar that was claimed by E-Anu as the spoils of war.
Gilgeam left the throne behind in Adanu when he went to rule Unther and Assuran stole the throne from the ruin of Adanu when he flooded it in the same year as he flooded Unthalass in vengeance for Gilgeams betrayal.

Perhaps the soul throne can be used to trap the souls of those who perish nearby and funnel them into the person sat on the throne. So the Warlord (Bane) wanted that throne to help him steal power from other to fuel his demi divinity (as he had been doing for a millennia).

I might put the throne beneath the amphitheatre.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  21:36:54  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I'm trying to flesh out Mourktar and Threskel and Chessenta and its really hitting home how there is absolutely no history in the region relating to any of the cities.

For instance Airspur we know has a significant halforc population and fights with Cimbar but nothing about when it was established why it has halforcs or anything significant. Looking in 4e lore I can find mention of ancient catacombs so im guessing it was an old Akanic/Untheric settlement but nothing concrete at all.

Cimbar was Tchazzar's capital, that's all I know.

Akanax is where Hoar appeared during ToT. Nothing else

Luthcheq is home to mage hating nutters.

Mordulkin is ruled by mages

Mourktar is home to Hoarite and Banite temples.


That is all I have on any of the cities in Chessenta. The whole lot of them might as well have sprang out of the ground a century ago.



So heres a few ideas and conundrums.

Cimbar was Tchazzar's capital but why? Its too far north and west of Chessenta to be a lynchpin for trade. I note Erebos is sat on the very tip of the western arm of land leading into the Bay of Chessenta that would make a good port to toll people entering the Bay and thus influencing all trade in the region. A city on a rocky outcropping is not a great capital but if Cimbar controlled Erebos then its a winner. The alternative is that there is something Tchazzar wanted beneath Cimbar. I note he had some regalia crafted (a sceptre, a crown, a ring) so perhaps he found the sceptre in Cimbar.


Akanax given its name I'm having be an old Akanix/Untheric settlement, perhaps one conquered by Assuran when he was booted out of Unther (hence him appearing there because he has lots of kin there).

Luthcheq I can't fathom a reason for the rabid mage hating at the moment but there does seem to be a large concentration of craziness in that city and weird occurences - Witchweed, vampires, entropy. Perhaps there is something about the place that is weak with respects to reality - something old and evil buried beneath it. There is mention of a lot of mudmen in the Bay of Chessenta from some powerful artefact, perhaps it lies just off the shore of Luthcheq and its magic is leaking.

Mordulkin it seems to me was aided by mages from the League of Samathar (after its successful revolt) but again why there and why not elsewhere.

Mourktar I've already mentioned seems a pretty poor position as a city so I'm making it a site of religious significance to explain its founding (just before the Alliance of Chessenta was founded).



I'm still working on the Warlord from Swords of the Iron Legion turning up in Chessenta after he was defeated (chasing godkings he could drain for more divine power) - Assuran became his next chosen victim but it didn't go according to plan. He carved a small kingdom in the north of Chessenta (conquering Airspur, Cimbar, and founding Dun-Orebos - which became Erebos), before destroying Akanax and forcing Assuran to flee east. The Warlord then shipped his forces across the Bay of Chessenta in pursuit of Assuran and had a showdown around Mount Thulbane. With the Warlord gone his kingdom swiftly vanished but it helped kickstart the independence movement for Tchazzar.



Anyone have any ideas on making history for Chessentan cities or anyone spotted any references in any novels (that I wont have read) or any random articles that I can use for inspiration?

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  22:55:54  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, officially, Luthceq hating mages, is because Luthceq was defeated in a war against Mordulkin and the Karanoks (who rule the city) blamed the wizard for being spies of Mordulkin, starting their crusade against arcane magic, which latter lost seemingly it's original reason though.

My guess is Entropy could have a role in this, as well all of the other madness in the area.

I mean, Entropy even appeared directly to the Karanoks, and they started to worship it.

The thing is, how sapient Entropy is? I guess though even if mindless, it could influence the outside.

The thing is, what is Entropy?

George Krashos suggested it was originally supposed to be a aspect of Shar (a popular theory for years), and that it would be best to have Entropy be the Mistress of the Night.

Despite Brain R. James Chessenta article stating Entropy is a Primordial imprisoned by Ao, it's I think very possible he intended Entropy to be the Realms aspect/version of Tharizdun. Tharizdun was in the Points of Light setting confused by most for a Primordial after all (which points out it might be intentionally part of the article's lore, to "misguide" Entropy is a Primordial), and Entropy Unaligned alignment, could be just due to Entropy/Tharizdun being unconscious/dormant (and Entropy was described as Neutral Evil when it was first described (in Old Empires), just like Tharizdun pre-4E, and Shar). Shothragot, the avatar of Tharizdun, also resembles Entropy quite much, and also produces minor versions of itself.

This would also definitely explain the madness around the area.

Sadly, latter writers from what I know, completely ignored the suggested Tharizdun-Entropy connection, and the novels had Tharizdun being attempted to be summoned from outside the Realms (someone correct if I'm wrong, and there was some connection).

Alternately, Entropy being a Primordial, could fit with it being Shar, with it being the Primordial body/part of Shar, she was separated from when she became a goddess/Estellar. But I don't think you will use this suggestion as if I remember in Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions you intended for Shar (and Selune) be connected to Ssharstrune.

Other fans have theorized Entropy is the body of Pandorym.
Which would explain the hate of mages around Luthceq further - while Entropy would be "mindless", it could still have some resident feelings left, and resentment towards Imaskari, which degraded to hatred of all mages due to it's mindless state, it's hatred influencing the population of Luthceq, with the loss of with Mordulkin, being thn only the "seeiming" reason for the hatred of mages.

Curiously though the Imaskar fan lore book by Snowblood, had Pandorym being an aspect of Ghaunadaur the Imaskari artificers summoned, specifically Pandorym being the "remains of the very first dream sphere of Ghaunadaur".
https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/IMASKAR-166507649

Ghaunadaur was identified with Tharizdun in late 3.5E and early 4E, but latter that idea was abandoned, but the above idea could be used, with just Entropy/Tharizdun, being substituted for Ghaunadaur.

Edited by - Baltas on 05 Mar 2018 00:22:05
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  01:02:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, going full-bore personal homebrew here...

In my Overcosmology (Monomyth, etc), I have it where there were two Supernals (the sentience of entire dimensions/'rules' of the Universe). One was best know as Ymir, and the other was Gaea, but they both have hundreds, if not thousands of names. But recently I made a sleight tweak to Gaea, and have renamed the original being Aeon (although calling either by either name is perfectly fine as well... trust me, they don't care ).

Now, for each dimension/Supernal there is an energy type, some of which are still unknown to mortals. And there were twelve of these. The 'Ymir energy' was elemental in nature, because the four elemental planes - plus the Prime - were all a part of it; the 'Material Plane' (Firmament). Aeon was 'life itself' - the concept that energy and compounds could interact and create life. This is the equivalent to the old notion of 'Positive Energy', and that plane would have been hers. But then Ymir 'died', and in order to save reality (the physical universe) - which 'the gods' had grown so fond - Aeon merged her essence with The Ymir, in order to sustain it. But the job was only half-done, and the Lattice of Heaven collapsed (that taken from 4e canon), and the universe (First World) began to break-apart. Ahura-Mazda (Jazirian is an aspect) and Angra-Mainyu (Ahriman) - two other Supernals - used their power to join together, creating a swirling vortex that would recollect all the disintegrating matter and energy and force it back together. This is how The Great Wheel came into existence. But even so, the universe never full reformed. Great swaths of it were saved (many of the other planes), and as for the Material planes, the four elements were sorted out from that (for a time), and 'The Prime' became distilled from Elemental Maelstrom (The Phlogiston) as well, forming into bubbles of matter & energy know as 'Crystal Spheres'. This process is slowing still going on, and new Crystal Spheres are forming even now.

But getting back to the dead/dying Ymir and Aeon. Ymir itself was gone, its sentience 'snuffed out' and shattered with its planes. This equates to the splitting of the World serpent in D&D. Some think its is merely in a coma, while others believe it will never revive, but there is no way of knowing until nearly all of its 'soul stuff' is recollected, and that's become a nigh-impossible task. From the conjoined being came a new dimension - the new Physical Planes, composed of both material, and the life energies of Aeon, and this is now 'The Gaea'. Its is very similar to the original Aeon in many ways, thus why the two names are interchangeable. But being merged with Ymir has also caused her consciousness to fracture, and the original has 'gone dormant' as well. She has many aspects though, on numerous worlds - she is 'The Earthmother'. From the conjoined energies of the two comes Mana, which is the new form of 'life energy', although not nearly as permanent as the original Vitai (Prana). Thus, 'mana' has two halves - the light, and the dark. What we know of in The Realms as 'Arcane' and 'Shadow'. The combined energy - Raw Magic - is too dangerous for mortals to handle. The Ymir-side of the equation is now laced with death - Umbral, or 'Negative' Energy - and the two together in that form - life & death, is nearly impossible to use without filtering one from the other.

And what of Ymir? In the agony of his dying moment - the death of a being that embodies all physical existence - came but one thought - "I am ending." And that thought became a vestige, embodying that very concept - ENTROPY. Entropy is all that is left of Ymir. Its is the barest fraction of its original power, and it is 'mindless'. its only 'goal' is the thought which sparked its creation - The End of All Things. Shar may try to control Entropy, but it is too 'pure', even for her. She doesn't possess the single-mindedness of Entropy itself, and that's why no one being will ever be able to control it. They may exert influence over it for a short time, but that, too, shall end. For such is the way of things with Entropy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2018 01:09:05
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4065 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  07:30:42  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well entropy is basically a sentient sphere of annihilation and there are plenty of dead godlings around the empires to account for its creation.

Perhaps luthcheq is a corruption of luth chesq meaning home of chesq.
This could have been the home of the first grand viceroy of chessenta (who i made a madman).
Now way back in the early years, akanu conquered the east of jhaamdath, what if it stole its udoxia and brought it back to akanu. Ram Chesq later started experimenting on it and twisted into something else, something sentient.

This twisted udoxia is what has been leaking magic into the groundwater and creating witchweed. It also creates odd psychological pathologies in people, such as irrational hatreds based on the tiniest of stimuli.


Of course given the number of time luthcheq was sacked its no suprise that the udoxia was discarded into the sea by some ignorant soldier.

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