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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:07:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a cult of worshipers of Gilgeam in the Black Ash who are killed in 3e. In Lost Empires of Faerûn (I also got that book for my campaign) they say (p.70):

quote:
When Gilgeam's loyal clerics and high champions were forced to flee the riots that followed their god-king’s death, the citadel became their secret sanctuary. For years, the generals plotted their return to power while the priests prayed for the return of their god-king. Meanwhile, soldiers mined the mountain’s tunnels extensively for gems to finance the upcoming war.

The efforts of Gilgeam’s faithful ended in 1372, when volcanic activity covered the citadel in a superheated cloud of fiery ash, killing almost everyone inside. The structure is now almost completely buried in ash, which helps to protect the gemstones, weapons, and divine magic items that lie within its vaults. Dozens of huecuvas—the undead remains of Gilgeam’s clerics—now haunt the place.


So they died many years before the Spellplague. We can make a few of them survive though.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6442 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:07:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to do something I rarely do, put some notes inline below

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Thanks to everyone who responded so far. This is a lot to wrap my head around, especially since there is lots of talk of Akanûl and Tymanther. I know very little about these regions since I did not keep up with the 4th edition lore. So, there are lots of words being thrown around that have little meaning to me. I am going to have to go read up.

So, anyway... let me see if I understand some of the basics.

- The nation of Mulhorand did not go to Abeir. It was just largely destroyed during the events of the Spellplague, and then conquered by the Imaskari from Deep Imaskar. Supposition by the people of Toril. We don't know with any certainty yet what was copied over or not.

- Some of the conquered lands of Unther WERE transported to Abeir. Once there the Mulan peoples became slaves. The Mulhorandi, who had conquered Unther, became high ranking slaves and the oppressed Untheric people became lower ranking slaves. They were all slaves to genasi tyrants who ruled the nation of Shyr on Abeir. (Is there any more information on how this went down, or is it open for speculation?) This little tidbit came from some "Untherites" who were following "Gilgeam" the "Son of Victory". How much they knew about the surrounding lands and where they were being kept was not explained. My supposition would be that they were up in the areas that were transferred Mourktar and Messemprar.


- Tymanchebar was a nation of Dragonborn on Abeir who rebelled against the Dragons there who had enslaved them. It was a free nation of Dragonborn. A portion of Tymanchebar was transported to Toril during the Spellplague, and it literally fell upon the lands of Unther, essentially killing everyone there--including many Dragonborn. Tymanchebar in Abeir likely fell to the dragons of that world, and this transported land renamed itself Tymanther in honor of its former nation.

- Tymanther's capital city is named Djerad Thymar. It is located roughly southeast of where Unthalass was once located. It is a massive large ziggurat-like city, divided up into roughly four districts. Tymanther's government can best be described as a stratocracy, where the military and the government are one and the same, and the head of the nation is known as the Vanquisher. Tymanther is very much a collection of Clans who have gathered together for strength. They elect a leader periodically to be effectively provide guidance and a vision, and during times of conflict they become the ultimate authority to prevent infighting between the clans


- Tymanther is further sub-divided by various clans that trace ancestral lineage. There are at least two known Clans of Dragonborn, Kepeshkmolik and Shestandeliath. Clan Kepeshkmolik has associations with the former Untheric God-king Nanna-Sin. Clan Shestandeliath has a powerful artifact known as the Breath of Petron.

- Unthalass and Messemprar remained in the Realms but are in ruins. The Messemprar that was "in Toril" was fallen beneath the waves and inhabited by sahuagin. One of the things to note is that when lands transferred it wasn't necessarily "contiguous" pieces all the time. It is almost like areas were copied and dropped into some areas rather than transferring cleanly (as happened with Maztica and Laerakond). Therefore, we may find that Messemprar and Mourktar had portions copy and portions transfer, and the result was unstable earth leading to the collapse into the alamber sea. Unthalass is filled with lamia.


- A powerful Mulhorandi Wizard known as Nezram--who is a planeswalker--is somehow responsible for overthrowing Returned Imaskar. This somehow also led to a return of the Mulhorandi God-kings.

- We have, as confirmed in the lore, the following God-kings returned: Gilgeam, Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and...? From the SCAG ::: Today Mulhorand is ruled by demigods that call themselves by such names as Re, Anhur, Horus, Isis, Nephthys, Set, and Thoth . They take different forms, some human and others tieflings or aasimar, but all speak and act like the gods of legend come to life, which they must be. This family of deities bears the scars of all the past loves,
rivalries, and wars between them, but for now they have set their differences aside for the betterment of Mulhorand and its people, and the people of Mulhorand love them for it.
It should be noted from this that the gods being presented are the gods PRE Thayd and the Orcgate wars. Re is back, and Horus is just Horus. Enlil is back. So, in theory, so are all of them including any that died in the orcgate wars, but personally I wouldn't do that. However, one wonders if there is some weird linkage of the orcgate wars and possibly a previous time leading into godly upheaval in the world, culminating with things like the death of Mystryl, the binding of Eltab's hidden layer of the Abyss to Toril, and the summoning of Kossuth that destroyed Raumathar and Narfell. Maybe even the death of Re during the orcgate wars kicked off something related to the Dawn Cataclysm

- Asmodeus is somehow involved in what is going down in this region, apparently cutting a deal with Enlil, and in exchange transported the immortal essence of Nanna-Sin into the body of a dragon turtle. Asmodeus absorbed Azuth. With the sundering, Azuth was "reawakening" and the "godhood" could only have one personality guiding it. Basically, Asmodeus and Azuth were going insane by trying to occupy the same godhood. A ritual was performed, allowing the "divine spark" of Nanna-Sin to be given to Asmodeus so that he could remain a deity, and Azuth was returned

=================

Okay, this is what I seemed to understand. Did I misunderstand anything?

So, some additional questions: When the Untheric people returned from Abeir, how long had Gilgiem been around? Did their "land" swap places on Toril again, or were the people just transported? How did the Mulhorandi and Genasi conflict with the Utheric people get solved? Was that solved before or after their return from Abeir? Basically, in the final novel by Erin Evans, "Gilgeam" was leading a band of Untherites to assault Shyr. They effectively saw "Gilgeam" as a person leading them to freedom. He also had a sizable force of demons aiding him, as he had made negotiations with Graz'zt. They were surprised (including "Gilgeam") when they appeared in Toril near Unthalass. They don't explicity state when "the Son of Victory" appeared, but it is almost as though he is a relatively recent development. The Untherites reveal that the Mulhorandi were working as the masters of the Untherites, but serving Karshimis of Shyr, though one must take into account these are the words of the oppressed, so they may be colored.

What is the state of Tymanther now that the God-kings are back? It seems that some of the God-kings are supporting Tymanther... why would they do this against their own people? One of the dragonborn "hears" Enlil, and he tells his people that if they will give respect to Enlil that he will provide protection in return. You have to read the novel to really get it, but in essence, they treat it like a mercenary contract... they provide him worship to strengthen him, and he provides them protection. They represent this by blowing "breath" into their cupped hands, almost as if they are giving their own "breath" to the god in thanks for his aid. Also, it should be noted that Enlil appears in the dreams of the dragonborn as a dragonborn.... and it should also be noted that many of the Untheric gods have turned out to be dragons... remember Bahamut is said to be Marduk in the realms, and Tiamat is amongst this pantheon


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6442 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:13:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The connection between Ishtar and Isis as well as between Rammon and Anhur we're based on deals between these Gods.

And Mask being part of the Mulhorandi Pantheon (which was lacking a God of theives) was part of the deal that allowed Bast (Sharess) to join the Faerun Pantheon, but there are reasons for those, I'm not big on conjoining the Mulhorandi Pantheon with the Faerunian Pantheon.

Still it's never really explored what Masks joining the Mulhorandi Pantheon really meant, did Mulhorand give him and his priesthood a position of authority, recigonize his church,give him a mystical connection to the Mulhorand people?

Also there appears to be two Mulhorandi peoples Abeiran Mulhorandi and Toril Mulhorandi, so that makes things interesting in Mulhorand. Did the Abeir Mulhorandi worship the Karshimis Primordial?





Yeah, I'm using this to actually send Mask to Abeir.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6442 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:21:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Also there appears to be two Mulhorandi peoples Abeiran Mulhorandi and Toril Mulhorandi, so that makes things interesting in Mulhorand. Did the Abeir Mulhorandi worship the Karshimis Primordial?


Correct me if I am wrong, but the Mulhorandi that returned from Abeir were those that had conquered Unther, right? Therefore, they would not be in Mulhorand proper, they would be located in the former region controlled by Unther and Tymanther.

I was under the impression, based on what was previously posted, that Mulhorand did not physically go to Abeir. It was just largely destroyed when the lands that would become known as Tymanther came over. In chaos and ruin, the former Mulhorandi lands were eventually conquered by the Imaskari from Deep Imaskar.



It was written up this way in the 4e FRCG

"Ancient kingdoms fell in the Spellplague’s aftermath, among them Mulhorand. Many of the Mulan people were lost when the landscape
rocked and changed. The few remaining fled to other lands, including Chessenta. With Mulhorand’s gods departed and the altered landscape completely barren of civilization, a descendant of ancient Imaskar named Ususi Manaallin founded the new realm of High Imaskar. She did so by relocating the ancient (and movable) Palace of the Purple Emperor to the wildscape of former Mulhorand."

So, the people were "lost" does that mean they died or they transferred to Abeir. It is kind of open to interpretation. Also, I hadn't noticed this until just now, but she moved the Palace of the Purple Emperor.... beneath which was part of Pandorym (elder evil that many of us believe was related to Entropy). Makes me wonder now about the Godswallower reforming in Chessenta and consuming a large swathe of the southern portion of the country (that grey swirl you see on the 4e map).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:24:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The Emperor of Shyr is also dead, as is the entire royal family.


There is a problem with this: the emperor of Shyr is Karshimis itself. A primordial. In the Dawn War, the gods had to band together in groups of 5 or more to kill a single primordial, and not always succeeded. The Untherite don't have the power to kill Karshimis.

Also, Namshita, while she was a rebel, she doesn't rebel openly until the Untherite came from Abeir, and she meets Dahl (one of the protagonist of the novels) and the dragonborn prisoners. Before that, her rebellion was more subtle.

If you like, I did a summary of the first Tymanther-Unther war, that will help you to grasp the current situation of the Old Empires better.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jul 2017 03:29:12
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6442 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:32:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First off, Darkvision had almost NOTHING to do with Imaskar, except for the main character having come from Deep Imaskar (which was still 'deep' at the time). There was a small scene (I loved) wherein she camps-out in an Imaskari ruin (funny how no-one found it before an actual Imaskari was wandering around), and they also get into a bit about the Palace of the Purple Emperor (another ruin...sort of*), and how all that relates to Pandorym. Its very specific plot-points, and there is pretty much nothing about how Imaskari interact with Mulhorandi (in fact, come to think of it, that novel was late 3e, NOT 4e - they were still underground!)

Second, as for people having their memories of Abeir: YES, that does happen. Not everyone's 'memory fades', but we can use that plot-device to explain how some people remember things differently ("Didn't Unther blowup? How can you guys still be alive when the whole thing blew up?") In other words, it would appear that it was the people Left behind on Toril that had 'false memories' (and thats how we explain-away the retcons). People also remember Halruaa blowing up as well.

Mostly I just wanted this as an excuse as to why people saw 'ruins' of Mulhorand and Unther on Toril, and yet, those same exact places were just fine over in Abeir. people saw ruins and recalled the stuff getting destroyed, but that was part of the 'interdimensional trickery' that was going on. Overgods play a 'shell game' with geographic regions like this, apparently.

Man, I hope they left Chult detached, but given their recent focus on the area, I doubt it. How are they going to 'UN-blowup' something like THAT?


*And this just made me realize I can use this to fix a snafu I ran into while reading the novel. The PotPE is an actual, ancient ruin in the sourcebooks, *** Spoiler Alert! *** and yet, that's not what it was at all in the novel. It returned - in a different spot no less - intact (IIRC). So NOW I'm thinking it may have gone to Abeir (or elsewhere) when the Mulan Gods were wrecking the place, and a 'false ruin' was left in place for folks to find. All those gods stomping around (from three - later four - pantheons!) was almost like a region-specific ToT, and probably had a lot of the same 'magical chaos' going on. I think its a good fit.

Its no weirder than Elminster going around and restocking dungeons in his spare time.



I actual want to see that little peninsula that contained Samarach, Thindol, etc.. restored. However, the areas that "collapsed beneath the oceans" I want them returned, but full of Abeirans. Then rework those areas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6442 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:43:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Bane could if the Toril Bane is actually not "Bane" but the godson,Iyachtu Xvim, posing as Bane. If the artifact known as "The Black Lord's Cloak" that's in Mourktar which is said to be intelligent actually maintains some link to the actual Bane, and if Mourktar transferred to Abeir.


Ohh! That is interesting. What happened to Mourktar, according to canon? Wasn't it involved in a novel somewhere and was still on Toril?

Although, even if it went over to Abeir, and we managed to link all that stuff up, it would be odd for Bane to strike up an alliance with a demon lord rather than an arch devil. Unfortunately, that much--the bit about Gilgeam striking up an alliance with Graz'zt--appears to be written into canon.

That being said, I always loved Mourktar and the Church of Bane there. Since it was never described in the Realms how Bane returned, in my home Realms Bane came back in a similar manner to what you described with the aid of this cult. They ultimately conquered Threskel and then the lands of Unther.



To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?

Yes, the part about "Gilgeam" working with Graz'zt is canon. Just to make things interesting... you should note that this implies a very serious planar change to Abeir. It had access to the abyss. Remember that prior to the spellplague, the world was supposed to not have contact to any outer planes, etc.... Of course, the abyss temporarily became a part of the elemental chaos during 4e. What this has said to me is that a lot of the things that the people of Toril believed about Abeir MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE FOLLOWING THE SPELLPLAGUE. So, for instance, this idea that no gods could be on Abeir..... just may be untrue. The idea that there is no weave on Abeir at all, may be untrue (Erin's novels has them go to an area that contains the bones of a primordial, so it wouldn't be surprising if said area were magic dead while the rest of Abeir has been developing a weave for the past hundred years).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:50:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

(that grey swirl you see on the 4e map).


Many of these grey areas of the map were plaguelands as well.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  03:58:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mourktar is mentioned in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels. It was part of Threskel when this was a independent nation, and then became part of Chessenta when Tchazzar conquered Threskel. Now that Chessenta isn't an unified country anymore, I guess Mourktar is an independent city state.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  04:07:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yes, the part about "Gilgeam" working with Graz'zt is canon. Just to make things interesting... you should note that this implies a very serious planar change to Abeir. It had access to the abyss. Remember that prior to the spellplague, the world was supposed to not have contact to any outer planes, etc.... Of course, the abyss temporarily became a part of the elemental chaos during 4e. What this has said to me is that a lot of the things that the people of Toril believed about Abeir MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE FOLLOWING THE SPELLPLAGUE. So, for instance, this idea that no gods could be on Abeir..... just may be untrue. The idea that there is no weave on Abeir at all, may be untrue (Erin's novels has them go to an area that contains the bones of a primordial, so it wouldn't be surprising if said area were magic dead while the rest of Abeir has been developing a weave for the past hundred years).



Well, you have to take into account that, before the Spellplague, Abeir was closest to the Elemental Chaos, while Toril was closest to the Astral Plane/Sea. And, as you said, after the Spellplague, Asmodeus moved the Abyss to the Elemental Chaos in a failed attempt to win the Blood War. So, at that point, the Abyss, beign in the Elemental Chaos, became closer to Abeir.

On the other hand, according to Chirs Perkins in one of the WotC podcasts while and after the Sundering 2.0, the passage between Abeir and Toril, and other planes, became easier. Currently, one can "move easily" between those two worlds.

As for the Weave on Abeir, Ed said this.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jul 2017 04:10:19
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14852 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  06:06:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot there was something about Ususi(sp?) becoming the leader of New Imaskar. There was absolutely nothing in the novel (that I can recall) that gives any indication that this would have been a possibility. Sounds kind of silly, actually. She was just a 'scout' checking out the surface world, to see if they could return. Although I think the ending may have turned her into a hero (thats sometimes happens in novels. Me? I prefer when the main character dies in the end; A 'good' death).

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

lol, my post was for Markustay and his theory of the simulated Abeir.
Actually, I think Ravenloft is only part simulation - it can't just steal everything it wants, so it has to copy some things, and either Overgods or through some sort of automatic process of the universe, when large swaths of geography (and the peoples living there) got swapped-out through 'magical chaos' (or interdimensional chicanery, if you prefer), some sort of 'blur' tool is used to make peoples memories hazy or even outright false, and 'ruins' are left in place of what was there, to help explain-away the event (because poor little mortals can't really handle the fact that EVERYTHING is "just made up", and reality itself gets rewritten all the time). Two good examples of this - the creepy movie Dark City, wherein everything changes every night, and no-one ever remembers, and in the recent Westworld series - the robots ('Hosts') don't remember their past lives. At least, they're not supposed to (when they did, well, that's what the series is all about). One 'woman' goes looking for a daughter she had in a past life, even though she knows none of it is real.

But I'm not saying any of the stuff that gets swapped back and forth between Abeir and Toril isn't real, except for maybe the fake ruins... or are they fake? Or are they the real thing, but from an alternate set of probabilities? So that is what was supposed to be left behind, before some Overpower snatched away the stuff just before it was destroyed?

Powerful magical items, specific mortals, sacred relics, etc., can't be duplicated precisely - there will be flaws, and they'll never be as good/powerful as the original. In fact, the dead bodies don't even matter - they're just physical material that is part of the plane - all that matters are the souls. They can just have new bodies generated for them when they arrive (like how Rezzing works). A person could probably even see their own dead body if they get back fast enough (I used to love seeing my own skeleton in one particular video game, after I respawned).

So you strip the souls out just before the event, and then fabricate a new place for them to live on the other end (so maybe the ruins are the real part). Not really a whole lot of difference between this, and regular dying and going to an afterlife. When everything comes back, you are just 'rezzing' everyone and magically recreating their environment. At Overgod-levels of power, the line between reality and illusion no longer matters.

In fact, you can even go so far as to 'borrow' bits of another reality (a different branch of prophesies/probabilities) and 'fill in the gaps' on your world, where stuff went missing. But now I am getting a little Rick & Morty here. Basically, the Unther and Mulhorand we now have may be a 'might have been' version of them. Anything really goes when Gods & Magic are involved.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 19:43:39
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
928 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  13:30:13  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, more like nearly exact, but still branching timelines? I like that theory, but still we need to explain why the staff of Azuth seems to be a singularity to use this theory.

BTW, something I forgot to add to the Old Empires clarifications:

1. Akanûl. I've mentioned it, but didn't clarified its role.

Akanûl is a kingdom of Abeiran genasi from Shyr that were sent to Toril in the aftermath of the Spellplague. While not affected by the Spellplague proper, in 1386 one part of Abeir violently exchanged/transposed parts with Toril, in the Chessentan/Chondathan frontier. A great portion of the kingdom of Shyr was brought to Toril in that event and the original lands in those parts of Toril, including the city of Airspur, were destroyed. The surviving abeiran genasi founded a lot of cities in the newly blended lands of the Chesentan/Chondathan frontier and their lands of Shyr, and fought among themselves for two decades until a genasi noble was able to become king and unite the abeiran genasi as a new nation: Akanûl.

In 1429, the Abolethic Sovereignity (an organization of sorts made up by the primeval, first aboleths from the original world of Abeir-Toril) destroyed Akanûl capital, Brassune, forcing the genasi to relocate themselves to the ruins of Airspur. They rebuilt the city and made it their new capital.

We don't know what happened with Akanûl in the Sundering 2.0, as the SCAG don't mention it at all, and says Airspur is part of Chessenta. However, current Airspur seems to be same as it was in 4e. The SCAG mention is a "flying city" (as it was in 4e), as the earthmotes (flying chunks of earth caused by the Spellplague) that make up the rebuilt Airspur somehow still float, even after the Sundering 2.0 caused others across Faerûn to fall.

We also know that the SCAG either downplays or outright ignore 4e stuff, maybe to appeal to grognards, but when we read other sources (like novels and such) we find that some 4e stuff still applies, so... we can assume Akanûl still exist in some form (the Candlecanon will have to deal with this).

Chondath was utterly destroyed, BTW. Between the arrival of Tymanther and most of Shyr, the place was either destroyed, transposed to Abeir, or both. Its not mentioned in the SCAG, so, it wasn't canonically revived like other lands destroyed by the Spellplague. Like if Ao forgot about it...

2. Okoth, the REAL Old Empire, is rebuilt by 1479, however the sarrukh maintained this as a top-secret. For the rest of the world, Okoth is "still in ruins". The sarrukh in 4e were "re-invigorating" their race, breeding a new generation of sarrukhs and yuan-ti, and those serpent-races... they also worship Set, and were also waging a secret war of sorts against the serpent-races of other places, who worshiped Sseth and Zehir*.

We can use Okoth to the fullest in the CKCanon. Maybe as the puppetmasters of the Old Empires of the new age.

*Zehir is an interloper serpent god from the 4e Core World/Nentir Vale, that got himself in the Realms because, by mistake, the developers of Neverwinter Nights 2 used him as the god of the yuan-ti in the game. WotC acknowledged the mistake, but still mentioned Zehir as one of the Faerunian gods in the 4e FR Campaign Guide. Some products hint that Zehir and Set are one and the same.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jul 2017 13:52:08
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  14:48:52  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Forces of Sseth had, already over thrown the Set worshippers in 4e in Okoth partly because Set had disappeared in 4e along with the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14852 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  20:47:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the 'World serpent' is just another name for what I call 'The Ymir' (the First world, which is very similar to the Norse cosmology), and when that First World (dimension, really) got 'shattered' (Sundered), it is reflected in the consciousness of the plane itself, thus, the World Serpent sentience was shattered into dozens, if not thousands (millions?) of pieces as well. This is reflected by the canon we have in Serpent Kingdoms - just about all 'scaly' gods are aspects of the World Serpent.

So if we go with my (D&D) Body, Mind, & Soul theories about the nature of the universe, we have the Shattering/Sundering reflected in the Body (multiverse) and Mind (World Serpent), but what of 'the Soul'? What if the damage of that first death to The Ymir was different in each - The Mind was only fragmented in a few dozen parts, the body into millions of pieces (all the 'matter' in the Prime Material Plane - the worlds and other chunks), but the soul of that Elder God was shattered into trillions upon trillions of tiny bits? What if, every time a mortal is born, a miniscule fraction of that ancient, Elder Soul winds up inside them? What if thats all mortals souls are?

It could be why they're so valuable (even used as currency) in the Outer Planes. Its the one priceless, finite, resource. The only piece of one of the Sidereals that lesser beings can have and control. And maybe they are 'magnetic' in nature (the Law of Contagion in magic, or 'Spooky Physics' {Quantum Entanglement} in RW physics) - it attracts more of that 'soul energy' to it, and the 'biggest, brightest' souls attract the most (like an electromagnet, the more power you put into it, the more its going to pull).

ANYHOW, this all related to the Old Empires through those 'Manifestations' (either spelled with a capital 'M', or just say Greater Manifestations, since any little thing a god does that mortals notice is technically a 'manifestation'), among other things (like the fact that a lot of those scaly gods/aspects of the World serpent are/were highly active in the region). Set might be the most paramount of the aspects, having achieved dominance over many of the other aspects over time (is it reconstituting itself in this manner? Is it like the Immortals in the Highlander series?) I see similar things happening with other Gods, like Malar for instance (he absorbed Herne, or would that be 'reabsorbed'? Who really knows...)

As for the Staff of Azuth: Going with everything I have above, and how I picture the universe working, the staff is unique. Physical matter (Body) is NOT - its says in many early D&D products that creatures of the inner and outer planes are just created out of the 'Planestuff' itself. So why wouldn't this be true of the Prime Material - we see how people can get new bodies, and we can build structures out of thin air. The 'physicality' of something doesn't really matter at all. Thats just the universe giving you something to look at while you are dealing with it. So the staff itself - what we see - isn't whats unique. it has to contain some bits of something - Mind and/or Soul - of something very powerful. Shar & Selûne are ancient powers - maybe its been collecting some of that energy that went astray when the two had their battle. Or maybe its just been collecting souls, like an uber-phylactory (all those 'Weave Ghosts' maybe come from it?)

Whatever the case may be, it contains something ancient and powerful. Something that can't be duplicated with raw physical matter, or even ordinary divine or arcane magic. Maybe all artifacts (and relics) are like that - back in the day a caster had to imbue magical items with a bit of their 'soul stuff', which I believe was done mechanically by losing some Constitution (IIRC). I would imagine an artifact would be even more of a drain - perhaps linked directly with the creator while they still lived, and then their 'soul stuff' gets absorbed by it when they die? I know quite a few artifacts have sentiences of their own, and 'Legacy items' are like spontaneous artifacts - they just 'happen over time', and absorb the energy (souls) of their users. Since relics contain bits of Gods (or at least Saints/demipowers), they would also have this connection.

So imagine an artifact connected directly to Mystra's Weave, that has access to all that 'soul energy' thats ever been poured into it (and not just her Chosen, there's also all the Magisters, and possibly even a few gods and even her mortal followers, to some extent). Maybe the staff is a way to directly access all of that.

Non-Godly matters: Basically, everything about what is 'real' and what is just a 'copy' doesn't really matter. In fact, if something is a perfect duplicate (just the physical matter involved), why does it even matter? Both with be just as 'real'. The universe is nothing more than an infinite number of sub-microscopic particles that can be rearranged anyway we want... we just need the power to do so. 'Reality', therefor, isn't even real (and now I am starting to wax RW metaphysical). Its just all being held together by something else, and the moment that something else stops holding it all together, it ceases to exist. The 'Planestuff' is just playdoh for the 'Powers on High', especially those out beyond the tier of 'Deity'. And the Prime Material is just as malleable as everything else, once you start to scratch the surface.

So all the inconsistencies, retcons, 'New Lore', etc., etc., don't really matter; What was true before was true. What is true now is true. If they disagree with each other, it doesn't really matter. Something (powerful) somewhere just decided to make a change, and thats just the way it is. From a meta-game perspective we know its just some folks over in Renton, WA, but in-game, we can just blame it all on 'forces beyond our ken'. Stuff happened, and Overgods and what-not patched it the best they could. That's what happens when UBER-Powers have disagreements. When you get into a car accident (and its not 'totaled'), you just have a new fender slapped on and some fresh paint. Its just like that. Unless someone saw it while it was still broken, most folks aren't even going to know you did anything at all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 20:48:45
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  11:58:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Mourktar is mentioned in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels. It was part of Threskel when this was a independent nation, and then became part of Chessenta when Tchazzar conquered Threskel. Now that Chessenta isn't an unified country anymore, I guess Mourktar is an independent city state.



I'll be damned. Yeah, I just went into the google books copy of captive flame and sure enough its in there. Doesn't make sense because on the 4e map that whole place is just water (i.e. it extended more eastward than Messemprar, and the water extends westward of Messemprar as you go north). This becomes one of those things where "is an author's mention of something more important than the fact that that whole swathe of the map is gone". So, we have one of 4 options as I see it

A) Eastern Threskel transferred to Abeir along with Northern Unther and there was no Mourktar and the novel is wrong.

B)In the weirdness of the Sundering, Threskel shrank and somehow Mourktar was pulled a few hundred miles westward, not liking this.

C)Eastern Threskel transferred to Abeir along with Northern Unther and the people of Threskel built a new port city, which they named Mourktar, in honor of the fallen, after the spellplague.

And in the above transferred could easily be replaced with copied to create other options such as

D) in the weirdness of the Sundering, Threskel shrank. A copy of Mourktar was moved a few hundred miles westward, closer to Mt. Thulbane. Meanwhile the vast majority of the copy of Threskel transferred to Abeir. In this copying, many parts of Threskel ended up in ruins, some disappeared, and roughly half the population was gone.
I think C or D would work the best.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Jul 2017 12:14:03
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  12:01:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

(that grey swirl you see on the 4e map).


Many of these grey areas of the map were plaguelands as well.



Yeah, this came from the 4e dungeon magazine article on Chessenta. It turned that grey swirl into the Maw of the Godswallower. However, that doesn't mean the "Godswallower" only had one maw either, and that COULD be used to introduce something interesting as well, especially if the plaguelands were dangerous enough that few came close to them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  12:18:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

So, more like nearly exact, but still branching timelines? I like that theory, but still we need to explain why the staff of Azuth seems to be a singularity to use this theory.

BTW, something I forgot to add to the Old Empires clarifications:

1. Akanûl. I've mentioned it, but didn't clarified its role.

Akanûl is a kingdom of Abeiran genasi from Shyr that were sent to Toril in the aftermath of the Spellplague. While not affected by the Spellplague proper, in 1386 one part of Abeir violently exchanged/transposed parts with Toril, in the Chessentan/Chondathan frontier. A great portion of the kingdom of Shyr was brought to Toril in that event and the original lands in those parts of Toril, including the city of Airspur, were destroyed. The surviving abeiran genasi founded a lot of cities in the newly blended lands of the Chesentan/Chondathan frontier and their lands of Shyr, and fought among themselves for two decades until a genasi noble was able to become king and unite the abeiran genasi as a new nation: Akanûl.

In 1429, the Abolethic Sovereignity (an organization of sorts made up by the primeval, first aboleths from the original world of Abeir-Toril) destroyed Akanûl capital, Brassune, forcing the genasi to relocate themselves to the ruins of Airspur. They rebuilt the city and made it their new capital.

We don't know what happened with Akanûl in the Sundering 2.0, as the SCAG don't mention it at all, and says Airspur is part of Chessenta. However, current Airspur seems to be same as it was in 4e. The SCAG mention is a "flying city" (as it was in 4e), as the earthmotes (flying chunks of earth caused by the Spellplague) that make up the rebuilt Airspur somehow still float, even after the Sundering 2.0 caused others across Faerûn to fall.

We also know that the SCAG either downplays or outright ignore 4e stuff, maybe to appeal to grognards, but when we read other sources (like novels and such) we find that some 4e stuff still applies, so... we can assume Akanûl still exist in some form (the Candlecanon will have to deal with this).

Chondath was utterly destroyed, BTW. Between the arrival of Tymanther and most of Shyr, the place was either destroyed, transposed to Abeir, or both. Its not mentioned in the SCAG, so, it wasn't canonically revived like other lands destroyed by the Spellplague. Like if Ao forgot about it...

2. Okoth, the REAL Old Empire, is rebuilt by 1479, however the sarrukh maintained this as a top-secret. For the rest of the world, Okoth is "still in ruins". The sarrukh in 4e were "re-invigorating" their race, breeding a new generation of sarrukhs and yuan-ti, and those serpent-races... they also worship Set, and were also waging a secret war of sorts against the serpent-races of other places, who worshiped Sseth and Zehir*.

We can use Okoth to the fullest in the CKCanon. Maybe as the puppetmasters of the Old Empires of the new age.

*Zehir is an interloper serpent god from the 4e Core World/Nentir Vale, that got himself in the Realms because, by mistake, the developers of Neverwinter Nights 2 used him as the god of the yuan-ti in the game. WotC acknowledged the mistake, but still mentioned Zehir as one of the Faerunian gods in the 4e FR Campaign Guide. Some products hint that Zehir and Set are one and the same.



Personally, on the Akanul front, this was an underdeveloped area of the realms. It had some villages that were fighting over lumber rights. Airspur was a city filled with a lot of half-orcs. I'm perfectly happy letting this portion of 4e stay. It was good development.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  13:15:11  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Doesn't make sense because on the 4e map that whole place is just water (i.e. it extended more eastward than Messemprar, and the water extends westward of Messemprar as you go north).


I remember Markustay said (when I was pestering him about his maps ) that he once asked about the 4e map to the WotC guys, and they said that the map was more "evocative" than realistic. Well, he said this about Laerakond/Returned Abeir's map, but I guess this can apply to all of the 4e map.

If you look the map of BRJ's Chessenta article is unlike the 4e map. Tymanther's map in Erin's novels, also doesn't look like the 4e map (Erin's one is more realistic). So... I wouldn't be taking the 4e map so seriously. Is just to give the players an idea of the area, but not something so exact like the maps of previous editions...

That was the main reason I drawn my map of the Old Empires using the older editions' maps as references instead the 4e map.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2017 13:20:50
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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  16:39:35  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re: Mourktar and the Maps.

Zeromaru X's suggestion will probably keep us the sanest--just ignore the 4E Maps, and try and draw them as best we can by using what we know from the canon.

I think the bigger issue we are facing is not the maps themselves. It is where canon contradicts itself--where a place is both a ruin on Toril and somehow transferred to Abeir.

I think it was Zeromaru X who also suggested that we say that we are not dealing with "one" for "one" giant land transfers, but rather bits and pieces swapped. This allows us to say certain sections of the city were swapped to Abeir, parts of Abeir were swapped to Toril and destroyed the rest of the city that was left behind. Those who made it to Abeir, if the place appears to still exist, simply rebuilt it.

...we say something like that, then we can sort of just yada, yada, yada away and pretend that it all makes sense. Trying to over explain something will drive us insane, especially since the original decision to do what was done was so hamfisted. Just find the most simple explanation possible that does not require us to think too deeply about it, then quickly move on--no point in spilling ink over someone elses mistake. We will just paper over it with future lore, and maybe try and find some way to write serious mistakes out of existence. (I.E. A city exists in two places, so we use the Candlekanon to explain how this is possible, and then destroy one of them.)

....Meanwhile, I am working on writing something for the Cult of Gilgeam. I will share it when it is done. I have been reading and going through old lore, and I have been super busy the past couple of days. Everything that has shared has been immensely useful.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  16:47:22  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?


The original sketch map I designed for the 4E Chessenta article originally covered a much wider area (covering the same square miles as Vaasa and Cormyr maps that proceeded it). In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.

Sadly, there was no traffic cop coordinating content between the designers and novel department, so RLB was unaware this map existed when penning his novels set in the region.

And just for fun, here is a pic of the sketch map I started working on for Tymanther.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game

Edited by - Brian R. James on 25 Jul 2017 16:58:55
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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  16:57:46  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?


The original sketch map I designed for the 4E Chessenta article originally covered a much wider area (covering the same square miles as Vaasa and Cormyr maps that proceeded it). In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.

Sadly, there was no traffic cop coordinating content between the designers and novel department, so RLB was unaware this map existed when penning his novels set in the region.


Going off what I said above, is it possible to do the following: claiming that the land around Mourktar transferred to Abeir / was destroyed, but the city itself survived on an island. Then there was major damage to the city (as happened for the entire region) in the immediate aftermath of the land swap, but the survivors rebuilt the destroyed parts of the city.

Is there any travel/siege sequences for the city in the novels that would refute that it exists on an island? If so, I guess we will just have to retcon the maps.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  17:15:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, in the novel Jhesrhi and Ulraess reach Mourktar on horses, so... yes, island stuff contradicts canon. However, in the novels Mourktar was Threskel's main port-city.

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.


If you don't mind, can I use your map to update my own map?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2017 17:19:10
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Aldrick
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  17:24:53  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, in the novel Jhesrhi and Ulraess reach Mourktar on horses, so... yes, island stuff contradicts canon. However, in the novels Mourktar was Threskel's main port-city.


Well, I guess that settles it then. We gotta retcon the map to make sure Mourktar stays. We can just say that the port district of the city sustained damage from high tidal waves or something, and had to be rebuilt. Sigh.

Edited by - Aldrick on 25 Jul 2017 17:26:22
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14852 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  19:08:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.

Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.

Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.

And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jul 2017 21:54:38
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  21:29:41  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yes, that's a good approach. We have to remember that between 3.5 and 4e there are almost 100 years of difference (94 years, to be exact), and something like that can happen.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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