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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2017 :  01:59:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There also has to be a 'why?'

What could Mulhorand possibly gain from a war with Okoth? Unless the Sarrukh there begin to act belligerently toward Mulhorand, its best to "let sleeping dogs lie".

Are people still interested in a 5e map for this region? To be honest, I grew bored with it. I had most everything worked-out until I got to the Shining South - I wasn't sure what to do there (since WotC plan to officially 'go' to Chult, I'd rather see what their interpretation is, rather than me putting a whole lot of work into something that would be wrong).



Bingo here.... what's to be gained down near the lake of salt? Salt?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2017 :  18:13:27  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ancient secrets, revenge, and removing a future threat.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  07:00:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They've been there for what? 25K+ years, and never bothered anyone.

I'd say they were pretty damn good neighbors.

They may be the only thing keeping the monsters of Veldorn from sweeping north - it makes a LOT of sense to keep a 'buffer zone' between you and something like that. A lot of those cities in Veldorn are run by Vampire lords, and vampires can be commanded by liches. You remove those Sarrukh and you could be opening up a huge can-of-worms. Plus, the Mulan are probably in awe of creatures that have been on the world longer than their gods have. And many of their deities have reptilian aspects... and they build pyramids (IIRC, so did the Sarrukh... unless those were just 'leftovers' from the spellweavers). I think there may be some sort of primal connection going on there (they'd feel the same way about going in there as they would about defiling one of their Mulan tombs - its both sacred and taboo).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2017 07:01:35
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  19:34:06  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

They've been there for what? 25K+ years, and never bothered anyone.

I'd say they were pretty damn good neighbors.

They may be the only thing keeping the monsters of Veldorn from sweeping north - it makes a LOT of sense to keep a 'buffer zone' between you and something like that. A lot of those cities in Veldorn are run by Vampire lords, and vampires can be commanded by liches. You remove those Sarrukh and you could be opening up a huge can-of-worms. Plus, the Mulan are probably in awe of creatures that have been on the world longer than their gods have. And many of their deities have reptilian aspects... and they build pyramids (IIRC, so did the Sarrukh... unless those were just 'leftovers' from the spellweavers). I think there may be some sort of primal connection going on there (they'd feel the same way about going in there as they would about defiling one of their Mulan tombs - its both sacred and taboo).



Never bothered anyone, they have they're spies infatrate other empires and they and take them over from the inside out.

Edited by - Gyor on 08 Sep 2017 19:41:36
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  19:43:38  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still if you prefer to keep Okoth as it was, fine, I just thought it would make a good province, along with a rebuilt Sekras, for the Darker Gods like Set and Sebek.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
933 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2017 :  22:41:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer a less humanocentric Realms, yes. There are a lot of humanocentric kingdoms in the Sword Coast and the Hearthlands. I like that the Old Empires of today have no encompassing empire, and are populated by inhuman races, such as dragonborn and sarrukhs living alongside humans. It gives the the Old Empires a Conan-esque vibe, that make them more alien than mainstream Faerūn.

And I believe that this was the original purpose of the Old Empires area: its the alien, strangest place in Faerūn.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Sep 2017 22:50:30
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  00:41:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Still if you prefer to keep Okoth as it was, fine, I just thought it would make a good province, along with a rebuilt Sekras, for the Darker Gods like Set and Sebek.



I actually wouldn't mind Set being back in Okoth. I actually liked the idea where Set had infiltrated them. I just don't picture the Mulan people wanting to sweep in and populate the surface. Having some nagas, yuan-ti, lizard folk, gnolls, tieflings, etc.. allied with surface priests, warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards in some hidden shrines and/or complex, but who infiltrate Mulhorandi society fits.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  13:52:01  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Still if you prefer to keep Okoth as it was, fine, I just thought it would make a good province, along with a rebuilt Sekras, for the Darker Gods like Set and Sebek.



I actually wouldn't mind Set being back in Okoth. I actually liked the idea where Set had infiltrated them. I just don't picture the Mulan people wanting to sweep in and populate the surface. Having some nagas, yuan-ti, lizard folk, gnolls, tieflings, etc.. allied with surface priests, warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards in some hidden shrines and/or complex, but who infiltrate Mulhorandi society fits.



Most of the inhabits of Okoth ARE Mulan, at least in 3e, it was 88% Wereserpents followers of Set, 11% Werecrocodiles, likely most if not all of Mulan human or tiefling hertitage. 1% Sarruakh (it'd likely be less now as they went from around 80 Sarrukh to just 11 Sarrukh because of in fighting.)

4e might have imported some Yuan Ti servants in Okoth, but I don't think many, its still basically Mulan in population.

Here is how I see things unfolding.

When the Mulhorand defeat the Imaskari the Sarrukh flee to Chult or the Serpent Hills region, leaving Okoth to the Wereserpents and Mulhorand. Maybe surviving Sarrukh Set loyalists take over, or maybe not, it never said they all died.

The Werecrocodiles move back to Sekras at the orders of Sebek to rebuild Sekras, the Mulhorand Pantheon are united again instead of fueding, so Set and Sebek aren't concidered enemies of the state any more, but are PART of the government again.

The way I see Mulhorand being organized this time, I see it kind of more feudal with different deities controlling different Nomes (provinces), Set rules Okoth, Sebek Sekras, with Ra being the high king, Pharoah.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  16:42:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Still if you prefer to keep Okoth as it was, fine, I just thought it would make a good province, along with a rebuilt Sekras, for the Darker Gods like Set and Sebek.



I actually wouldn't mind Set being back in Okoth. I actually liked the idea where Set had infiltrated them. I just don't picture the Mulan people wanting to sweep in and populate the surface. Having some nagas, yuan-ti, lizard folk, gnolls, tieflings, etc.. allied with surface priests, warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards in some hidden shrines and/or complex, but who infiltrate Mulhorandi society fits.



Most of the inhabits of Okoth ARE Mulan, at least in 3e, it was 88% Wereserpents followers of Set, 11% Werecrocodiles, likely most if not all of Mulan human or tiefling hertitage. 1% Sarruakh (it'd likely be less now as they went from around 80 Sarrukh to just 11 Sarrukh because of in fighting.)

4e might have imported some Yuan Ti servants in Okoth, but I don't think many, its still basically Mulan in population.

Here is how I see things unfolding.

When the Mulhorand defeat the Imaskari the Sarrukh flee to Chult or the Serpent Hills region, leaving Okoth to the Wereserpents and Mulhorand. Maybe surviving Sarrukh Set loyalists take over, or maybe not, it never said they all died.

The Werecrocodiles move back to Sekras at the orders of Sebek to rebuild Sekras, the Mulhorand Pantheon are united again instead of fueding, so Set and Sebek aren't concidered enemies of the state any more, but are PART of the government again.

The way I see Mulhorand being organized this time, I see it kind of more feudal with different deities controlling different Nomes (provinces), Set rules Okoth, Sebek Sekras, with Ra being the high king, Pharoah.



Yeah, the part where Set is no longer an enemy of the state does make things a bit weird, in that it makes me wonder what his church has turned into. Horus has definitely taken a power drop. Is Set basically chafing under the rule of Ra, but he dare not oppose him due to the power of him? Is Ra actually a colder deity whose focus is all on law and less on good/evil? For instance, does he see the followers of Set as infiltrators and spies as a tool for use by the state?

BTW, one of the things I never realized before is that there is a bit of a weirdness in the passing of the power of Re to Horus-Re. We can see from Powers and Pantheons that Geb is the father of Isis, Osiris, Nepthys, and Set (noting that Thoth is the sister of Isis, but not the son of Geb). Anyway, the "classic" story, is that

A) Set kills Osiris by putting him in a coffing -- check
B) Using a ritual provided by Thoth, Isis brings Osiris back to life long enough to become impregnated by him and he dies again. Later Set chops Osiris' dead body up, Isis puts the body back together, and with the help of other gods he is brought back to life. -- somewhat check... the realms version has Isis and Nepthys mummifying Osiris and bringing him back with "eternal life"... which comes back to that weird "undead god" status we've seen with a lot of death deities.... btw, Kelemvor could also technically fall into this status, since he was sucked into Godsbane.
C) Isis gives birth to Horus. Horus seeks vengeance on Set --- kind of hinted at, because Powers and Pantheons calls Horus a "young god" when Re bestows his power on him. It also says that Isis is the mother of Horus.

So, this means that Re died, but since the death of Osiris was AFTER Re died... and Isis didn't get pregnant until after Osiris died... and thus the birth of Horus was after Osiris died... then Horus wasn't alive when Re died.

How should we spin the above? Re actually gave his power to Osiris, but then Set killed Osiris? Isis the "took in" the power of Re by mating with Osiris' temporarily alive corpse, then later "rebirthed" Re into her infant Horus?

Also, according to realmslore, Nepthys and Set were married until Set killed Osiris. It was only after this horrifying incident that she turned against Set and helped Isis raise Osiris. Has this suddenly been forgiven and is she a returning wife?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
933 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2017 :  17:47:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, this means that Re died, but since the death of Osiris was AFTER Re died... and Isis didn't get pregnant until after Osiris died... and thus the birth of Horus was after Osiris died... then Horus wasn't alive when Re died.

How should we spin the above? Re actually gave his power to Osiris, but then Set killed Osiris? Isis the "took in" the power of Re by mating with Osiris' temporarily alive corpse, then later "rebirthed" Re into her infant Horus?


Re indeed died. He was the first casualty of the Battle of the Gods. He was killed by Gruumsh.

If there is a date of Osiris dead, that could help with the timeline. The Battle of the Gods happened in -1071 DR.

EDIT:
So, Osiris was killed by Set in -1050 DR, according to the Old Empires sourcebook... your story about Horus' birth is either a myth, or the timeline is screwed.

I guess we need to create something akin to the Dragon Breaks to fix those timeline problems.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Sep 2017 18:04:56
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  14:41:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, this means that Re died, but since the death of Osiris was AFTER Re died... and Isis didn't get pregnant until after Osiris died... and thus the birth of Horus was after Osiris died... then Horus wasn't alive when Re died.

How should we spin the above? Re actually gave his power to Osiris, but then Set killed Osiris? Isis the "took in" the power of Re by mating with Osiris' temporarily alive corpse, then later "rebirthed" Re into her infant Horus?


Re indeed died. He was the first casualty of the Battle of the Gods. He was killed by Gruumsh.

If there is a date of Osiris dead, that could help with the timeline. The Battle of the Gods happened in -1071 DR.

EDIT:
So, Osiris was killed by Set in -1050 DR, according to the Old Empires sourcebook... your story about Horus' birth is either a myth, or the timeline is screwed.

I guess we need to create something akin to the Dragon Breaks to fix those timeline problems.



Well, the story of Horus' birth actually isn't canon to the realms. Its based on the EARTH story of Horus' birth. However, everything else in the myth of Osiris lines up. Geb is the parent of Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nepthys. Set convinces Osiris to get in a coffin. Osiris dies. Isis raises Osiris from the dead. Horus is Isis' son. All of this is documented in Powers and Pantheons.

The only piece not technically documented is that Horus is birthed on Osiris AFTER Isis raises him from the dead and mates with him in real world mythology. However, this is a big part of the hatred between Set and Horus, in that Horus wants to punish Set for killing his father and he acts as a god of vengeance.

So, in essence, you are correct... there has to be something going on that's needs a little more definition. In fact, if you think about it... Set and Osiris were fighting over Ra's power after Ra's death. This is also canon, but not necessarily part of real world mythology. That means it wasn't a simple "Ra dying and handing his power off immediately to this waiting god" like is kind of described, because if it were why were Set and Osiris fighting? It becomes more that Ra dies.. and is rebirthed in his great grandson Horus. Which when you think about these facts, it is kind of interesting in 3e lore that both Isis and Osiris and Geb are all serving their son/grandson... and that Nepthys is serving her nephew....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  17:46:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always just assumed the Horus in The Realms is native - its not the original. It just took that name because it was simpler (the Mulan already had myths about him). In fact, he may have been Hoar FIRST.

If you want the 'best of both worlds' (quite literally, in this case ), you could say that the original Horus HAD sent an aspect over with the rest, and he was the one who combined with Ra. Than Isis had another kid - Hoar - and folks in the Old Empires just started worshiping him as 'Horus'. So why the animosity toward Set? Mommies sometime make their children nuts (he's got a bit of a Norman Bates' thing going on). Anyway, it would have been the original, pre-death Horus that would have shown-up and merged with Re. This also helps us keep our Hoar/Horus separate from the being that is Horus-Re (but Mulan humans would never question any of this, and would go on believing its all the same person).

Would it be easier to spin things if Isis was Mystra all along? Just another aspect? Or rather, both might be aspects of some 'magical weave archtype'? Or perhaps Isis was Wee Jas - she has death in her portfolio, which would make a lot of sense in regards to what went on there, and she's a bit more conservative than Mystra (and also 'bestest buds' with Mystra, according to On Hallowed Ground). Of course, Wee Jas is probably just the GH aspect of the 'magical weave archtype'.

EDIT:
In 3e's Deities & Demigods (I always forget that book exists), he is called Re-Horakhty. Some interesting stuff there. Thats where I learned to refer to the Egyptian pantheon as the 'Pharonic' one (because it makes more sense, in a multiverse).

So if Unther & Mulhorand got a conjoined 'Mulan Pantheon' (which I am still pushing for, because I don't want the Old Empires to continue to be 'Earth knock-offs'), and they started pushing their religion into other regions (like the shining South, and the Hordelands), would they refer to that initiative as 'Hooked on Pharonics'?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Sep 2017 15:35:14
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  18:16:58  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's simple this is the second time Set killed Osris. Once on earth in his full God form, while Ra was still alive.

Then a second time after Ra dies, Osris' Manifestation died and was brought back to life, but Osris's main Godly essence was still out in the planes, as was Ra's.

See this is how the Mulhorand Gods work.

THE GODS ESSENCE, before the barrier fell the Gods essence dwelled in the planes, unable to effect Faerun.

They sent Manifestation we're sent to Faerun, which had no contact with the, essence.

The Manifestations created incarnations, like an avatar creating avatars, out of mortals.

So Ra "dies" but isn't really dead, his manifestation is destroyed that is all, his incarnations survive, his divine essence still exists.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  01:39:57  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually maybe Sampranasz could be Set's Nome.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6461 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  12:40:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I have always just assumed the Horus in The Realms is native - its not the original. It just took that name because it was simpler (the Mulan already had myths about him). In fact, he may have been Hoar FIRST.

If you want the 'best of both worlds' (quite literally, in this case ), you could say that the original Horus HAD sent an aspect over with the rest, and he was the one who combined with Ra. Than Isis had another kid - Hoar - and folks in the Old Empires just started worshiping him as 'Horus'. So why the animosity toward Set? Mommies sometime make their children nuts (he's got a bit of a Norman Bates' thing going on). Anyway, it would have been the original, pre-death Horus that would have shown-up and merged with Re. This also helps us keep our Hoar/Horus separate from the being that is Horus-Re (but Mulan humans would never question any of this, and would go on believing its all the same person).

Would it be easier to spin things if Isis was Mystra all along? Just another aspect? Or rather, both might be aspects of some 'magical weave archtype'? Or perhaps Isis was Wee Jas - she has death in her portfolio, which would make a lot of sense in regards to what went on there, and she's a bit ore conservative than Mystra (and also 'bestest buds' with Mystra, according to On Hallowed Ground). Of course, Wee Jas is probably just the GH aspect of the 'magical weave archtype'.

EDIT:
In 3e's Deities & Demigods (I always forget that book exists), he is called Re-Horakhty. Some interesting stuff there. Thats where I learned to refer to the Egyptian pantheon as the 'Pharonic' one (because it makes more sense, in a multiverse).

So if Unther & Mulhorand got a conjoined 'Mulan Pantheon' (which I am still pushing for, because I don't want the Old Empires to continue to be 'Earth knock-offs'), and they started pushing their religion into other regions (like the shining South, and the Hordelands), would they refer to that initiative as 'Hooked on Pharonics'?



That is a tempting viewpoint, because of the similarities between Hoar/Assuran/Ahorz and Horus. However, I think it muddies the water much. It is a simpler matter that Isis essentially births a new god in-world, and that this somehow is able to bypass the god barrier. Maybe even in order to create Horus in realmspace, they had to actually duplicate the myth.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2017 :  15:44:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The first thing I had to figure-out back when I started my 'Over-Cosmology' musings was assume that all the myths we know about 'the Gods' RW did not necessarily happen in Earthspace. Some of the stuff in myths (and this REALLY helps with the conflicting myths) is that some of it may have happened elsewhere, and the priests receive this knowledge as 'visions' to be shared with their followings.

This is how I did the Finnish pantheon - all the stuff from their mythos actually happened ON TORIL. Kalevala was actually located in the Northern Taan, along the eastern edge of the Bay of Raum. The Raumvari (Gur) were proto-Finns. That way, "not everything came from Earth". Thus, the deaths of Re and Osiris may have happened in The Realms, and not in Earthspace, but we became aware of them through 'the Gods'.

I am not a big fan of parallel evolution.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2017 :  17:35:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Earlier in this thread I was talking about my (non-canon) theories concerning the Imaskari & Netherese and their connections to the Balunish & Suel, and I've been turning over a slightly related conundrum in my mind the past couple of weeks regarding The Old Empires and racial groups, and realized we could actually fix everything simply by ignoring one major source (and lots of 'smaller' ones, but those don't really count, in that they never really got in the specifics of racial groups).

Where does the word 'Mulan' come from? Mulhorand, obviously. But wait... we had 'Mulan' before there was a Mulhorand. So even though RW (meta-gaming) we know the name derived from the nation, in FR lore, it must have been the other way around - the empire was named after the group (note I did not say 'race', because I am about to prove thats patently ridiculous).

'Mulan' is/was the Imaskar word for 'slave', plain and simple. We have had other (racial) groups that were part of the Imaskari empire, like the Tuigan (Taangan, actually), and the Raumvari, among others (like my theoretical 'Anoque' and the firmly established 'native' KTers which I've dubbed the 'Haltai'), but NONE of them were ever called 'Mulan', and also, none of them were ever 'slaves' (non-citizens, perhaps, just as the ancient Romans had such social separations, but NOT slaves). The Mulan, as we know from canon, are from at least two different ethnic stocks (one might argue the Babylonians and Sumerians are the same ethnicity, but they are certainly at least different 'groups', because of the time periods and gods involved). Also in canon we have it where the Mulan aren't really those groups anymore either, because they've mixed with others - mostly the Imaskari themselves, but we also have to assume that they've mixed with other member-'races' of the Imaskari Empire as well. In fact, I think the various Taangan tribes are all different percentages of of this racial-mixing (the Tuigan probably being the closest to the original Haltai stock that came out of Kara-Tur via the Plain of Horses).

So 'Mulan' = 'slave' in Imaskari. Its not a race - that a BIG mistake in the lore, and should just be ignored. Its fairly easy to sweep under the table, given our 'new insights' (over a century and a bunch of novels which I'll get to), and we can simply say it was an in-setting mistake of 'northern Faerūnian scholars' (like how GB fabricated much of our world history based off of the 'insights' of racist old men who had no clue, and had an agenda of 'exploitation' in mind the whole time, which we so pleasantly have named "The Age of Exploration"). Sorry if that sounded harsh, but its absolutely TRUE, and has a lot of bearing on the point I am trying to make: 'Mulan' are NOT a race.

Now, why would I bother to rehash all this, and even bring-up some RW unpleasantness? Because I am currently reading Richard Bryer's Haunted Lands, and he is constantly referencing the 'Mulan' racial group as being light-skinned and fair of of features. That doesn't sound like the 'Mulan' racial group at all. At least, not the one we've heard about before. And we can't even blame him, when just about every illustration we've had of a Red Wizard (or any Thayan for that matter) has shown them to be light-skinned, to the point of albinism (and RLB actually used that word to describe how they look!)

So maybe its a case of Indians. Somebody made a big mistake way back when (IG), and now people are still using the wrong terminology. The Thayan 'Mulan' consider themselves 'ethnically pure' (VERY racist, VERY much like the Scarlet Brotherhood... and I'll get to that as well).{checks sources} The 'Mulan' racial group from Races of Faerūn are decribed as tall, slim, and 'sallow-skinned'. That not only doesn't sound like a Mesopotamian (Semitic) people, it doesn't sound ike the Imaskari, either. Or does it?

I was going to make a point, but then I found that RoF actually agrees with RLB's version, which DOESN'T agree with what they should be, at all. I feel like the 'Mulan race' is actually the slave group that was better-treated, and had a MUCH higher percentage of Imaskari blood (to the point where, over dozens of centuries, they were just as 'fair' as the Imaskari themselves). They were actually the 'elite' slaves, and according to RoF, the 'darker' variety were the ones that mixed with the Turami, and even the Chondathans (or, my theoretical Dathites, who would have been an early Mediterranean people).

So now I have to rethink things. Years ago I pictured the Netherese as the typical 'pale wizard' types, but they turned-out to be dark-featured. And the Imaskari I had always assumed had a olive skin tone, and came from Zakhara, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The Imaskari may have very well been indigenous. While that presents quite a bit of lore-problems for me with all my 'histories', it does make a few other things simpler (like connecting the pasty-faced Imaskari to the fair-skinned Suel). I need to 'go back to the drawing board', as it were.

And the point I had attempted to make, before I waylaid myself mid-post, was that I think that there was a fair ethnic group within the Mulan group (a sub-group), but I no longer need to make that point. I really need to do some new connections, perhaps even linking the Imaskari to the Aryans (a group that I've never noticed before now is very similar to our Imaskari, both geographically, and now physically... both are a bit of an anomaly for their regions). Hell, the Imaskari are now very much like a magical version of the British Empire (in my mind), and the Netherese were like the Americans (quick to rise, quick to over-react and do so violently, and probably quick to fall). Or to put it another way, one was an enduring culture that came and went over time - like a comet - and the other was more of a 'shooting star', brilliant, but burning itself out quickly.

If I REALLY wanted to go nuts, I can connect the two to the Aesir (Assura)/Vedic (Vanir) War.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2017 17:53:41
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  02:53:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, they are definitely pale skinned, though sallow seems to have variations in definition from "pale brown" to "yellowish" and even "bloodless". However, they've always been shown in drawings as exceptionally pale.

British Dictionary definitions for sallow
sallow
adjective
1. (esp of human skin) of an unhealthy pale or yellowish colour

then others say this
(of a person's face or complexion) of an unhealthy yellow or pale brown color.
synonyms:
yellowish, jaundiced, pallid, wan, pale, anemic, bloodless, pasty;

However, I wouldn't say that this means that Mulan means slave. It could very well be something along the lines of that's the name of the continent or even world that they came from (because its not necessarily earth). There's probably a lot of other ways it could be spun.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  04:10:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I kind of derailed myself there - my post was heading in one direction, and then I realized RoF also said they were 'light skinned' (along with all the art I always thought was inaccurate, and the descriptions in Richard's books). So now what we have is a group that is supposedly of Semetic origins, and yet has very 'pasty' skin tones. The ONLY explanation from that is the other major group the 'Mulan' supposedly mixed with - The Imaskari themselves.

Which means that the Imaskari were not the psuedo-Persians I thought they were (although there is nothing saying they couldn't have had a similar culture, or at the very least, architecture). They were more of the atypical, fantasy-ish 'sorcerer race', which is usually depicted with sallow skin tones (because they are book-wormish and stay out of the sun, supposedly). The problem here stems from my own Earth-European sensibilities, thinking that the 'northern race' of mages should be fair-skinned (the Netherese), and the 'southern sorcerers' should be olive-complexioned, when apparently in FR its the opposite.

Still, Mulan seems to be the group that could be any race, that got 'blended together over time', so I don't see how it could have meant a specific ethnicity in the beginning, so what else could it possibly mean? servant? Even without any theories, homebrew, or inferred canon, we know they we from at least three different racial stocks (Egyptian, Babylonian/Sumerian, and Imaskari. In other words, people may consider it a 'race' now (like how 'Hispanic' has become an ethnicity), but that is an end-result, not how it all began.

I actually meant to break-into a semi-new theory of Imaskari Panspermia, saying how they probably had dozens of groups from dozens of worlds, and used them for different 'jobs', and that they had a bunch of Suel they had brought back (thats the fairly new part) to Toril with them, and those were the progenitors of the different, 'light skinned' Mulan. However, thats no longer necessary, so just disregard most of that above - obviously the entirety of the Mulan group - today - is fair-skinned. In fact, I would have to come up with an explanation for dark Mulan, except the entry in RoF also covered that, by mentioning 'lesser Mulan' who were from admixture of the Turami and Chondathan (a mixture of some olive-skinned 'Mulan' - whom I think were my 'Dathites' - and the Tethan racial group, which themselves were basically our FR version of the proto-Celtic peoples) groups.

The whole thing gets weird because what the Mulan consider 'purebloods' is actually the furthest thing from the original Mulan ethnic type - paradoxically, they seem to prize having the 'fairer skin tones' of their former masters above their own, original features (and at this point I am SO 'walking on eggs' here...). Thus, a 'pureblood' Mulan who has greater social status is actually the descendent of mostly Imaskari cross-breeding. The Thayan seem to be the ones who are the most concerned with this, so I would almost think they were driven from the Old Empires because they were practically pureblood Imaskari themselves.

So the ethnicities currently living in those regions around the Raurin, including the Golden Waters, 'came later'. The Dupari were NOT ancestors of the Imaskari - they were completely unrelated. This actually helps me fix another thing thats been bothering me for quite some time - the languages. 'Devic' is not Raurinese, and I think scholars have gotten that bit wrong - Raurinese came from the Dupari, who spread into the region after Imaskar fell, and 'Devic' was the language of Imaskar (which explains why it was spoken in Solon until very recently). Also, this meshes beautifully with my analogy to the Aryans, who were an Indo-European people, and had some ancient, pre-vedic traditions themselves (Deva/devic). That would mean all my theories about how the Vedic pantheon got into Malatra are also wrong - they are NATIVE, or at least, have existed on Toril nearly since the beginning.

So now that I am rewriting my proto-history, I have to figure out what made the Imaskari turn from their gods, which may have been the Vedic pantheon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2017 04:18:04
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  17:30:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are Dark Skinned Milan, it's just caused by intermixing with other human races like Turmish peoples.

And I agree the fair skin is likely the result of interbreeding with Imaskari.

Of course the old ideals likely don't still hold as there is likely few pure blooded Milan left outside of Thay's aristocracy.

The Untherites likely bred with other slalves races in Abeir, the Mulhorand with various people in their disporia, and the Chessentans we're already mixed with Chondathans, and the lower classes of Mulan of Thay with other people of That's lower classes.


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  17:39:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Wilderlands (Judge's Guild, at least back in the day) setting had persons of just about every color, including blue and green (pale version, not bright colors, but still).

I wouldn't mind seeing hate Mulhor (Mulhorandi Mulan) come back 'Red' (as in, like Native Americans or perhaps a bit redder than that), just to give us some variety. then again, that's how I picture the nearby Shaarans.

Blue Untherites would be pretty cool too, but it would harder to explain that (I believe elves already have some 'green', so that could just be some 4th-5th generation halfelves that look more human). Unless we can just make-up a very blue race on Abeir that they lived near (maybe an aquatic one - that would be a unique spin for the Untherites - make them semi-aquatic, with webbed toes and fingers, but still land-dwellers, for the most part.

I just really hate the idea Mulhorand and Unther came back and are now the same boring groups they were before.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2017 21:29:52
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
933 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  19:56:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just really hate the idea Mulhorand and Unther came back and are now the same boring groups they were before.



I don't know Mulhorand, but that is what happened with Unther, actually...

I don't want to be rude or offend someone here, but that was the whole purpose of the Sundering: return to the whole the ideal Realms without changes, because people hate change.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Oct 2017 19:59:39
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3662 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  20:04:38  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People like change, they just hate c**p design.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1183 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  21:01:41  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Wilderlands (Judge's Guild, at least back in the day) setting had persons of just about evry color, including blue and green (pale version, not bright colors, but still).

I wouldn't mind seeing hte Mulhor (Mulhorandi Mulan) come back 'Red' (as in, like Native Americans or perhaps a bit redder than that), just to give us some variety. then again, thats how I picture the nearby Shaarans.

Blue Untherites would be pretty cool too, but it would harder to explain that (I believe elves already have some 'green', so that could just be some 4th-5th generation halfelves that look more human). Unles we can just make-up a very blue race on Abeir that they lived near (maybe an aquatic one - that would be a unique spin for the Untherites - make them semi-aquatic, with webbed toes and fingers, but still land-dwellers, for the most part.

I just really hate the idea Mulhorand and Unther came back and are now the same boring groups they were before.



I think the Uthgardt tribes are native American in features.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  21:34:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uneccesary or illogical changes people don't like - "change just for change sake". Many of us were clamoring for years for them to do something interesting with the Old Empires, and I guess their idea of 'interesting' wasn't the same as ours (we wanted them BETTER, and instead, we got them replaced with a long-dead empire and a nation of genasi (which would have worked MUCH better in Calimshan).

It was akin to bringing your old car to a mechanic and asking him to fix it up and give it a new coat of paint, and instead he junked it and is trying to sell you a whole new car... one that isn't exactly your taste.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I think the Uthgardt tribes are native American in features.
I picture the Uthgardt being more like Germanic ('goths') tribes.

The Shaarans from Shining South.

Look a very much 'Native American' to me.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2017 22:03:13
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