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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  18:28:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Preview Books:
Yeah, I read those back when they first came out... within a few months, anyway - I was unwilling to PAY for something that amounted to a self-congratulatory giant advertisement for 4e, with lots of mutual backslapping going on (for destroying FR ). I felt like I was rolling around in someone else's narcissism. It was... unpleasant.


Yeah. That's true. Even I think that, and I'm a 4e fan.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for Melora


There was a Melora in a D&D movie... mmm.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I like the idea that Ao isn't as 'all power' as we were lead to believe (he could get rid of the entropy-thing, but even he couldn't just *snap* his fingers and make the damage go away). It may have something to do with that 'far Realms' (Tharizdun) corruption - Powers from the normal universe are very limited in what they can do about stuff from that one (and yeah, I am picturing the MotGS being something akin to a black hole - stuff it was 'eating' was pouring out over there, so it was actually like a Gate). So now that the thing is gone, we are just left with a patch of 'no rules' universe there.


That was the solution they used in Living Forgotten Realms as for why Ao didn't stopped the Spellplague from happening: the Spellplague was raw magic infused with Cyric's madness and contaminated by energies from the Far Realm (that also answered why the Abolethic Sovereignty was so interested in maintaining alive the Spellplague). But then, the LFR authors handled way better the Spellplague stuff than official WotC authors.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I am pretty-sure Ki/Mielikki is an ANCIENT Goddess. Maybe not a primordial, but definitely one of the very first deities to arise. Even the elves worship an aspect of her - she's extremely 'primal' (so maybe one of those confusing 'Primal Powers' 4e created?)


The Primal Spirits are the living embodiment of the living world. Like the spirits from Avatar the Last Airbender, in fact. Gaia would be perfect example. If Mielikki is something like that, maybe she started as a spirit before becoming a goddess.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  21:13:54  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Dunno if you know about the 4e preview books. In those books they share their development ideas and that stuff of "the making of 4e". I got them because most of the backstory of the races and places of Nerath is in those books.

In one of those books (the one about the world, IIRC) is revealed that they wanted to change the core world of D&D. They didn't want to use Greyhawk anymore, instead they wanted to use the Realms as the core world, and created the Nentir Vale as the starting place in the Realms for that purpose (well, this bit of info was revealed by Chris Perkins in Twitter). Then, they realized (with good reason) that using the Realms as the Core world will be problematic with the fans, but at that point had created the whole Nentir Vale and other stuffs, and said "this is too good to wasted it", so they re-purposed it into a new pseudo-setting, the Nentir Vale world (or just "the D&D world", as was called back in the day).

So, while most of the initial 4e core stuff seems "shoehorned" into the Realms (such as races or the cosmology), the truth is that it was first developed to be part of the Realms, and later re-purposed to become its own thing (and there is a Dragon article that specifically states that the World Axis cosmology was designed originally for the Realms, and later adapted into the Core world). This is also why most of the Nentir Vale stuff seems to be copy-pasted from the Realms. Nentir Vale was part of the Realms at first (heck, the World even has a "Weave" if we go by the novels).

With the gods was quite the reverse, though. They began creating their own gods, but later said "If we have a fey god, why don't use the old good Corellon instead?". So, they used most of the Greyhawk gods because players were most familiar with them (though they used Bahamut instead of Heirouneus because Bahamut is cool—they say that in the book, but I support their good tastes ), but a few of the new gods remained in the end (they favored the newly created Melora—somehow a fusion of Umberlee and Silvanus—over Obad-Hai, for instance).

Some gods used placeholder names. Such as Bane. The core god of war was more like Mars/Ares at the beginning, because without Heironeus, Hextor doesn't makes sense. But they used Bane as the placeholder name, and the name stuck... thus, Bane became a Core god.

BTW, Pelor's placeholder, at least initially, was Amaunator

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole).


Nezram is Mulhorandi. And seeing his actions in recent years, the guy will kill you if he knows you said he was Imaskari,

Halaster... yeah, I guess he is fine. The guy has so many clones, that players can even chose a 4e theme (something like the 5e backgrounds) were their characters are Halaster's clones.



Worse, he's a planeswalker, he knows where to shove you for maxium sufferibg without killing you.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  21:29:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, you just gave me an idea... for WotC.

They should create a 'Nezram the Planeswalker' card for MtG. That would be EPIC.

In fact... why not an entire 'Forgotten Realms' expansion? (or a Planescape one, which will give them more D&D concepts to cherry-pick from). Hand & Eye of Vecna, Strahd, Beholders & Illithids, a 'Mournlands' Card (a land card that randomly changes land-type each turn), Lolth, etc., etc... I want to see the Terrasque creature card.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  01:34:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

[b[ Ki's Cleft - [/b] It is said that Ki's avatar form appeared from the nearby forest of Chondalwood during the Sundering and that her presence sent great swells of green glowing energy throughout the Tharch. This cleft actually reaches all the way down to the Great Rift, where it has a small opening high up on the north wall of the Great Rift.


I can heat Grumbar saying "I didn't filled that **** Underscham" for you to come and create this shit!"

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Personally, you've heard my idea of having a copy of a portion of Abeir coming over. I called it the "Red Mineral Forest of Shyr", and I was going to include that it held the Citadel of Burning Ice that belonged to Karshimis (but Karshimis didn't come over).


The problem with this is that Ao wanted to restore both worlds, not just Toril. My point here is that he didn't repaired Toril at expense of Abeir. I'm pretty sure he repaired Abeir as well (because Mystra wants to protect Abeir as well in Ed's article about the Sundering*).

Another point is that we have to take into account is that he wanted to separate Abeir and Toril again (because status quo...**), so during the Second Sundering he didn't exchanged terrain unless it was absolutely necesary (like, there was something Torilian in that terrain during the "transposing"), and even so, when this happened the exchange was kept to the minimum (just land, not features). We also know that Ao didn't cared for individuals (because many people was just sent to Abeir or Toril during the SS indiscriminately, regardless of their original world), so he not transposed land just for bringing people back.

If there was no necessity for transposing, he just repaired (see, Grumbar filling up the Underchasm, or the Great Rain).

So, if you like to have this forest, you have to make it something that was transposed to Toril before the Second Sundering, and prepare a good reason for why it remained after it (like Enlil protecting Tymanther).

The issue here is that, there is no reason for a forest of Shyr to be there. Before the SS, there was a black hole there, not a forest. My suggestion is that you should move the forest from there. But I don't see a reason for Ao to have brought the whole Citadel of Karshimis to Toril. It will go against his whole "separation of worlds" philosophy. You need a really, really good explanation for this, beyond "is cool, we should use it".

For instance, I want to "bring back" Nentir Vale to the Realms (yeah, bringing back... it was supposed to be part of the Realms). But my idea is that the Nentir Vale was there (wherever this there will be... since there is a canon map that uses that spot , so perhaps we need a new one for the Ckanon) there since the Spellplague. So, I just need a reason to allow it to stay (and I'm going to plagiarize Erin's one... if a god with barely power can protect Tymanther, a full god with established religion in the Realms can protect Nentir Vale effortlessly)



*That, btw, I guess we should use for the Candlekanon. Is in Dragon 427, for those interested.

**This is why I see Laerakond lost in canon, and that is sad. Laerakond was way better than Mesoameri... I mean, Maztica.




A) in Canon, Laerakond MAY be lost. Personally, I recommend against that, and so long as enough of us say it, since its not officially canon, it leaves a gap.

B) I believe we can also work that Mystra wants to protect Abeir because she now has a fledgling hold there

C) On the forest thing, I will stress here, copy.. not steal.. if one area has a literal hole of absolute nothingness, I don't see a problem with a "twinning" of a section to fill said hole. I honestly see just doing a handwave and making it go away is a bad idea. Something happened there. Something should happen there as a result. The area was literally pretty much nothing before. Turn it into SOMETHING. Not saying the forest is the only idea.

D) One of the things we have to realize is that yes a lot of stuff has returned. However, a lot of it has not as well. Akanul and the most documented areas of Tymanther stayed. I'm betting Telos up in Vaasa will end up staying. Laerakond, I'm not so sure of, but I think it should... just displaced just as the "fake" Evermeet was displaced.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  01:41:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


@Sleyvas -
As much as I hate Goliaths, how about a group of red-tinged ones (makes it easy form them to hide amongst the trees). They could be red & black mottled, instead of the usual B&W.

"The Goliaths of Abeir are somewhat different than those of Toril and beyond. They've always lived in hiding, fearing the dragons would take them for true giants and slaughter them on sight. This not only causes them to be reclusive, and isolationist, but it also leads them to find any means to keep themselves from being seen at all. Take for example the Goliaths of the Red Mineral Forest: they managed to find and extricate Cinnabryl from the mineral trees, and by ingesting it, they take on the color of the forest, and are able to blend-in quite well. Of course, the exotic substance causes other... effects. But one can't be too choosey when hiding from one's enemies."




Hmmm, I like this idea maybe and will consider it. The earth is red, and maybe the tree bark on a lot of the trees as well. However, the leaves on the trees, I'm also picturing as being many different "neon-like"/"gem-like" colors, so there might even be options for other colors.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  01:55:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't think it was that I was 'unaware'. I'm not sure how to put it - GH was always 'core'. then in 4e they started coming out with stuff for something called 'Netir Vale', which looked for all the world like a 'D&D hodgepodge' setting, and was even referred to by WotC designers (early-on) as a 'non-setting' (they were just going to toss-out chunks of lore all over the place, which may or may not apply to the same world).

The part that I seem to have 'missed' was that at some point during 4e's tenure (which I had stopped paying attention to), the non-setting became an actual, cohesive setting... with novels! I was even aware of the Abyssal Plague novels, but I didn't look into them when I saw they were cross-world (in other words, 'generic D&D').

I had just assumed that if I needed a world where a bunch of 'core pantheon' worshipers came from, that would have been GH (even though I KNEW their were differences, my assumption once again was that "Greyhawk got some new gods". At no point in time did I think anything from the core rulebooks didn't pertain to GH (because I am very old, and "thats the way its always been").

So I guess what I am trying to say is that it wasn't so much that "I missed it", but rather, more like I just wasn't even looking in the right direction to see it. I had blinders on when it came to 4e.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The ones from High Imaskar? The survivors of the rebellion fled to the Desert of Purple Dust or to other planes, according to the SCAG. There is nothing more about them.

The ones from Deep Imaskar are sound and safe in the Underdark, saying to their High cousins "told ya".

No, this is someone different, before there even were 'Deep Imaskari'.

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole). Thats enough for an Imaskari bowling team! We'll call them the 'Imaskari immortals'.

We could put them up against the Nethere-Ease, an all-lich team consisting of Larloch, Aumvor, Iouluam, and Lady Saharal (okay, she's actually a ghost, but close enough).

Its gonna be a fun night at the trans-planer archmage bowling ally!



Nezram should be Mulan, as he's on the side of the Mulhorandi.... unless I'm wrong. However, you could also list Thayd amongst those Imaskari, along with the living body possessing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  12:45:51  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Nezram is a Mulhorandi Archwizard, perhaps powerful enough to challenge Sazz Tam or Elminister.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  19:11:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


@Sleyvas -
As much as I hate Goliaths, how about a group of red-tinged ones (makes it easy form them to hide amongst the trees). They could be red & black mottled, instead of the usual B&W.

"The Goliaths of Abeir are somewhat different than those of Toril and beyond. They've always lived in hiding, fearing the dragons would take them for true giants and slaughter them on sight. This not only causes them to be reclusive, and isolationist, but it also leads them to find any means to keep themselves from being seen at all. Take for example the Goliaths of the Red Mineral Forest: they managed to find and extricate Cinnabryl from the mineral trees, and by ingesting it, they take on the color of the forest, and are able to blend-in quite well. Of course, the exotic substance causes other... effects. But one can't be too choosey when hiding from one's enemies."




Hmmm, I like this idea maybe and will consider it. The earth is red, and maybe the tree bark on a lot of the trees as well. However, the leaves on the trees, I'm also picturing as being many different "neon-like"/"gem-like" colors, so there might even be options for other colors.
I actually got the name wrong, its been so many years since I looked through the Red Steel material. It was Vermeil I was thinking of, not Cinnabryl (which should also be present - that is the metal found in areas with Vermeil). I've also said elsewhere that I think Micha from Maztica is the same substance as Vermeil, just different colors. But that was a long time ago, and now with all this 4e/5e material, there are some GREAT ways we can spin this.

Lets say 'Micha' is the pure form - its golden. It enhances the magical powers and properties of anything it is coupled with. Nice stuff, eh? So where did it come from? According to the Maztican (Azuposi) legends, the stuff was 'left behind' by Masauwu* - some sort of Primal Spirit from 'the True World'. He had to leave his people, and in their legends, that was 'his gift'. Hmmmm... sounds to me like a primordial that went off to fight in the Dawn War and just never returned (yes, there is something in the Maztica stuff that says he's just mad at them, but I want to ignore that). What if he didn't return because like so many others, he was destroyed... he 'essence' reduced to the dust of Micha. Now, what if some of this dust wound-up in Abeir, after Ao 'split the worlds': created Abeir & Toril from The True World in Maztican Legend? (and BTW, I worked on my list again of Maztican Gods as the Draconic Pantheon - I'll post that elsewhere). Now lets look at the lore regarding Vermeil, from Red Steel:
quote:
The most obvious nonliving manifestation of the curse is vermeil, a reddish dust found in the air and soil of the region. Vermeil is sometimes referred to as dragon's blood. The substance radiates magic, and since it is omnipresent along most of the savage Coast, detect Magic and similar spells are all bust useless there.

So what if 'Vermeil' is tainted Micha? Tainted by the blood of dragons? (the 'dust' that is in Mystara could have been another primordial who died there during the war, or just another part of Masauwu that landed there).

Primordial blood that was tainted by a dragon... and turned an entire forest red.

And here's the best part - Smokepowder weapons do not work in Mystra (just like The Realms), YET, they work on the Savege Coast because they add a little Vermeil to the smokepowder. Now, if you read any of my musings on Smokepowder, you'd know that it has the same formula as Black Powder (according to the Watercourse Trilogy), which means it isn't the ingredients that are making it work, its some sort of magical agent/spell that is allowing it to "break Ao's rules". Something is added - be it ritual or some sort of extra powder - that is 'bending physics' just enough to make normal Black powder into 'magical Smokepowder'. Of course, the Lantanese mechasmiths and the Skyfire Guild in Kara-Tur (among a few scant others) keep that a well-guarded secret. In fact, the Lantanese use a minor dweomer bestowed upon them by Gond to do this (I may want to use the 'Primordial dust' angle in K-T, though).

So as soon as someone discovers there is a 'magical dust' in that forest that could make creating smokepowder much easier, there could be a war to seize it.

Aaaaaaand... we get all the coolness of adding the Red Steel stuff - the legacies - to that part of the world. In fact, they are really nothing more than a different flavor of Spellscars (Dragonmarks in Eberron). Every one of your giants can have a unique 'super-power'.
EDIT:
And now I've just reimagined your Red Giants: Instead of the normal 'mottled' pattern to the black splothes those guys have (MAN, I HATE that), why not have them covered with Celtic-like patterns (swirls and such)? Not only did the vermeil change their color, it changed the very nature of their coloring.


*'Masauwu sounds like he could be a 'cousin' of Ubtao, eh?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Aug 2017 21:25:39
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  23:53:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, I could definitely buy the red mineral forest being able to produce Vermeil. I could also buy that grinding up some of the leaves may produce different kinds of magical powder.

Yeah, now I'm really really thinking about swapping that little portion of Chondalwood that extends into the shaar and making it the red mineral forest.

BTW, one of the things I'm thinking about with Peleveran is that while they were in Abeir, Khass the rain god from Complete Book of Barbarians is restored and they embrace him (red wizards love weather guys). Anyway, so for a hundred years with the help of a god and their own magic, they make this section of the eastern shaar verdant and they even plant trees. However, if they have this small empire from all over the world AND they have a large open area.... what do you think about them importing trees from Abeir / Katashaka / Lopango Jungle / Osse ? I'm not picturing the Shaar being like a rainforest or anything, but I can see several small forests and/or groves being groomed to grow. What kind of stuff can you see them wanting to grow beside fruit trees and hardwoods and maybe rubber plants?


Oh, and Masauwu (aka Skeleton Man)... except for the fact that he led the Azuposi out of the earth... I'm not seeing him as anything to do with Ubtao's family. I'm not quite sure WHAT to make of him. He's a spirit of death and fertility and he gave the Azuposi fire. I also don't see the Azuposi as having been on Anchorome that long.


I strongly believe that the Azuposi came from Kara Tur because of the hints in City of Gold about how much they resemble the Wu-Haltai.

According to their myth of creation, the Azuposi believe they came from the ground; that they were called forth by Skeleton Man, who showed them plants to grow and fire for light and warmth. It may be that the Azuposi actually did come from the ground. #151;Perhaps, like the desert dwarves, they came through the Underdark of the world'#146;s crust. Given their physical appearance and language, however, the Azuposi ancestors probably did not come from the continent of the Forgotten Realms, but from the oriental lands of Kara-Tur. Indeed, future scholars may discover
remarkable commonalities between the languages of the Azuposi and the Wu-haltai and other races of Kara-Tur#146;s Northern
Wastes.


I honestly thing they're related to this from the Kara-Tur boxed set.

After battling a bakemono horde at the Hill of Namaskar, Queen Triala of the Tayamulchi decided that her homeland was no longer safe. Guided by a divinely-inspired vision, or so she claimed, her people would leave in search of a new land. It would be a rich land where the reindeer would thrive, where the streams are almost choked with salmon, where the winters are mild and in summer the forest overflows with nourishment.

The clans elected to follow her vision; it provided more hope than what was promised by the wolfish tribes that surrounded them in the Ama Basin. Therefore they journeyed north, vengefully razing some humanoid territory on the way, into the Land of Snow Demons.

No one has since heard from the Tayanulchi, and it is unknown whether they found the land of their vision, still wander the barren tundra, or all perished in the northern ice.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  23:57:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I could definitely buy the red mineral forest being able to produce Vermeil. I could also buy that grinding up some of the leaves may produce different kinds of magical powder.

Yeah, now I'm really really thinking about swapping that little portion of Chondalwood that extends into the shaar and making it the red mineral forest.

BTW, one of the things I'm thinking about with Peleveran is that while they were in Abeir, Khass the rain god from Complete Book of Barbarians is restored and they embrace him (red wizards love weather guys). Anyway, so for a hundred years with the help of a god and their own magic, they make this section of the eastern shaar verdant and they even plant trees. However, if they have this small empire from all over the world AND they have a large open area.... what do you think about them importing trees from Abeir / Katashaka / Lopango Jungle / Osse ? I'm not picturing the Shaar being like a rainforest or anything, but I can see several small forests and/or groves being groomed to grow. What kind of stuff can you see them wanting to grow beside fruit trees, Palm trees (because Khass has palm trees as fingers), and hardwoods and maybe rubber plants?


Oh, and Masauwu (aka Skeleton Man)... except for the fact that he led the Azuposi out of the earth... I'm not seeing him as anything to do with Ubtao's family. I'm not quite sure WHAT to make of him. He's a spirit of death and fertility and he gave the Azuposi fire. I also don't see the Azuposi as having been on Anchorome that long.


I strongly believe that the Azuposi came from Kara Tur because of the hints in City of Gold about how much they resemble the Wu-Haltai.

According to their myth of creation, the Azuposi believe they came from the ground; that they were called forth by Skeleton Man, who showed them plants to grow and fire for light and warmth. It may be that the Azuposi actually did come from the ground. #151;Perhaps, like the desert dwarves, they came through the Underdark of the world'#146;s crust. Given their physical appearance and language, however, the Azuposi ancestors probably did not come from the continent of the Forgotten Realms, but from the oriental lands of Kara-Tur. Indeed, future scholars may discover
remarkable commonalities between the languages of the Azuposi and the Wu-haltai and other races of Kara-Tur#146;s Northern
Wastes.


I honestly thing they're related to this from the Kara-Tur boxed set.

After battling a bakemono horde at the Hill of Namaskar, Queen Triala of the Tayamulchi decided that her homeland was no longer safe. Guided by a divinely-inspired vision, or so she claimed, her people would leave in search of a new land. It would be a rich land where the reindeer would thrive, where the streams are almost choked with salmon, where the winters are mild and in summer the forest overflows with nourishment.

The clans elected to follow her vision; it provided more hope than what was promised by the wolfish tribes that surrounded them in the Ama Basin. Therefore they journeyed north, vengefully razing some humanoid territory on the way, into the Land of Snow Demons.

No one has since heard from the Tayanulchi, and it is unknown whether they found the land of their vision, still wander the barren tundra, or all perished in the northern ice.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7247 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  00:01:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
oh, and I know... odd question, other than dates and coconuts and palm oil, is there any other kind of palm tree that produces a useful fruit or vegetation? I mean, not that I can't make something up, but just curious of real world.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Aug 2017 00:08:49
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  00:44:56  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wood?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  02:10:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except that maztica blurb says they might be Wu-Haltai, and in the K-T material the Tayanulchi are Issacortae - a completely unrelated human racial group. Although the two groups both live in the Ama-Basin region, the Issacortae have more 'western' features. In some of my earliest 'human migration' musings, I actually had it where the 'Cortae People' (a group similar to the RW 'Clovis People') split in two, with one half traveling in the then mostly-unsettled Kara-Tur region. The western branch split into several smaller sub-groups, the most famous of which would be the Talfir.

There were theories about that group becoming the Iulutiuns of the Great glacier (Pelvuria), and I believe that was actually confirmed somewhere eventually (maybe the GHotR).

The God(?) Monkey lead two different groups to Maztica/Anchoromé, one through the Underdark, and the other through the 'Land of the dead' (so assume that was the Sahdowfell). I doubt he is Masauwu - they are way too different.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thanks for the correction on Nezram - I wasn't sure, hence the '(?)' I had put there.

The Preview Books:
Yeah, I read those back when they first came out... within a few months, anyway - I was unwilling to PAY for something that amounted to a self-congratulatory giant advertisement for 4e, with lots of mutual backslapping going on (for destroying FR ). I felt like I was rolling around in someone else's narcissism. It was... unpleasant.

On the other hand, they actually had a bunch of very good ideas. Too bad they didn't use any of those. I loved the spin they put on undead (which matched my own thoughts of 'Body, Mind, & Soul' perfectly). I've already resolved the 'Core Bane' dilemma elsewhere (including the weirdness about who helped him achieve godhood). 'Core' Bane is the real Bane... OUR Bane, from FR. It was a 'cheap knock-off' that we've had for awhile (Xvim poising as daddy). NOW 'Core' Bane IS FR Bane... NO PROBLEM.

As for Melora - I hope they axed her. There was no point for her - she actually 'lessened' the setting (from the gods who's places she had taken). I felt like she was somebody's 'homebrew' that got forced into 4e (I am sure there were a couple of under-the-table deals being made - "You support me on this, and I'll support you on that".)

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

You do have a good point there... and honestly, I have been struggling with the red forest once I started putting pen to paper. You know... maybe I should have that little thin section of Chondalwood that's at the top of the eastern Shaar leading into the landrise get transferred. I did want to have red wizard involvement with the red mineral forest.
Suggestion: use the Maerchwood instead - we lost it for an entire edition (3e). Lets say it 'went to Abeir' during the ToT (and Brian James has said that some land-transfers DID occur during that period), and that's why it wasn't on the 3e maps. Now its 'come home'... CHANGED. This not only solves where to put it, but is resolves the 'where the heck did it go' from 3e, and also the lore-conundrum that Zeromaru has pointed out - unless gods were involved, everything was supposed to 'return home'. If it was originally from FR, then thats why its back... but weird. (Didn't like my Cinnabryl, angle, eh?)

Didn't like my Maerchwood suggestion? I thought both the forest itself and its placement were ideal for this 'Red Mineral Forest'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Aug 2017 02:19:43
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  09:08:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was reading Ed's answers on many topics, and I really wanted I have been here in the years he was actively answering in the Realms. I'd like to have a few answers on many stuffs, but at the least some of the answers addressed many doubts of mine (regarding gods, destiny and that stuff).

Also, in which year are you working in your campaign/idea, sleyvas? Current novels year (1491)?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  10:04:56  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im not sure you would get many answers on the gods from Ed, he tended to remain vague and unknowable when it came to the gods because his realms was all about the little people (with a smattering of godliness for flavour and mystery). His early answers in the archive reflect that and it is only when the sundering happened that he came up with explanations for godly events (probably to try and help FR out of the hole it is in).

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  10:14:27  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yet, many of his answers deal with the nature of gods in the Realms (Can they truly be killed? Are they spiteful? Are they sexual as we mortals?) I wondered many of that stuff (like, why Enlil was so powerful as to retain Tymanther in Toril if he had no clergy in the current Realms? Well, Ed answered why—Indirectly, obviously).

Perhaps Ed's Realms aren't about gods, but he has a clear definition of what the gods are.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Aug 2017 10:17:13
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  10:40:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think in the end he gave in and just answered the endless questions about the gods, the first few years he always said they were mysterious and unknowable.

Relgions he was quite happy to talk about because those are people constructs.

Plus some of his gods were only quasi deities and those arent the same as true gods in outlook or abilities.

But im biased against the god fest the realms has become (lazy design and storytelling), so maybe i am projecting my bias onto the posts i read. Perhaps Ed actually does love all the god stuff and likes the way they are portrayed in nuRealms.

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  13:43:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was reading Ed's answers on many topics, and I really wanted I have been here in the years he was actively answering in the Realms. I'd like to have a few answers on many stuffs, but at the least some of the answers addressed many doubts of mine (regarding gods, destiny and that stuff).

Also, in which year are you working in your campaign/idea, sleyvas? Current novels year (1491)?



Yeah, the stuff I'm writing assumes only a few years after the return, so a lot of uncertainty, maps that may be wrong, people scrambling to make alliances or break away, etc... a lot of flux.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2017 :  16:09:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was reading Ed's answers on many topics, and I really wanted I have been here in the years he was actively answering in the Realms.

He's busy with his own company now, which is unfortunate (I think - and I am going out on a limb here - for EVERYONE concerned).

Had we had the situation just five years ago that we have now, with the DM's Guild, I don't think TEGG wouldn't have ever happened. I think Ed would be happily cranking-out what god made him to do - produce Realmslore at an inhuman rate.

But he has other responsibilities now. If the man were even just a smidge unethical... but he's not. He'll keep all his promises.

Which is a damn shame where the Realms are concerned.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gyor
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Posted - 06 Sep 2017 :  13:55:03  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've looking into things and I still think Okoth would be absorbed into Mulhorand, Okoth had 18 Sarrakhs left, out of 80 so before the spell plague, and the population was low else where.

Yes they could call on the Yuan Ti, Lizardfolk, and Nagas from elsewhere for extra troops, but by the time High Imaskar was in hiding in their extradimesional spaces, it would no longer be worth the risk to hold.

Plus I don't see the Wereserpents and Werecrocodiles remaining loyal to Okoth now that they're traditional Gods had returned, and most of Okoths population was Wereserpents and to a lesser extent Werecrocodiles.

Even with the importantion of some Yuan Ti, most of the population had greater ties to Mulhorand by blood, then Okoth.

And the Yuan Ti are not as loyal in 5e to Sseth as they might have been in previous editions, I could see a mass revolt in Okoth.

Then the surviving Sarrukh and any Werereptiles and Yuan Ti still loyal to them fleeing to Chult.
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2017 :  15:06:24  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I've looking into things and I still think Okoth would be absorbed into Mulhorand, Okoth had 18 Sarrakhs left, out of 80 so before the spell plague, and the population was low else where.


Okoth has 18 left yeah. But they are not isolated. According tos sourcebooks like Shinning South, Okoth is linked to other sarruk enclaves across all Faerûn (and perhaps beyond) via portals. Like the one in Halruua (in Chasolné—that one is also mentioned in the FRCG*).

Perhaps that can explain how the other sarrukh and yuan-ti invaded so easily old Okoth: they have always had means of direct access to the city.

So yeah, Mulhorand can try to invade... they will have nearly every yuant-ti and sarrukh in Faerûn on their doorstep.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Plus I don't see the Wereserpents and Werecrocodiles remaining loyal to Okoth now that they're traditional Gods had returned, and most of Okoths population was Wereserpents and to a lesser extent Werecrocodiles.


Yeah, guys like Osiris, that kills them because reasons every now and them. While, they are citizens with rights in Okoth. I don't see that trade a wise.

Obviously, in your Realms you can make Mulhorand conquer the whole world if you want. But logically speaking, I don't see Mulhorand as powerful as they were.

They fear the Tymanther-Unther war. A war between an small nation vs a weakened nation. A powerful nation not need to fear in a conflict so small... yet, Mulhorand fears, and that says a lot.

Okoth is even a more powerful foe than those other two.

*FRCG, p.137
Chalsoné: Beyond the altar, a tunnel opens into a domed chamber. Three round passages lead into the earth from this chamber, leading to an ancient sarrukh site. Two sarrukh still reside here. They perform experiments on their lizardfolk servants and on captured travelers and sailors. Through magic portals, the site connects to Ilimar and Okoth.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Sep 2017 15:11:04
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 06 Sep 2017 :  16:57:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There also has to be a 'why?'

What could Mulhorand possibly gain from a war with Okoth? Unless the Sarrukh there begin to act belligerently toward Mulhorand, its best to "let sleeping dogs lie".

Are people still interested in a 5e map for this region? To be honest, I grew bored with it. I had most everything worked-out until I got to the Shining South - I wasn't sure what to do there (since WotC plan to officially 'go' to Chult, I'd rather see what their interpretation is, rather than me putting a whole lot of work into something that would be wrong).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1076 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2017 :  17:30:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still interested, but I understand you. Its frustrating to do something and then it will become obsolete in a few days. If you want to wait, I can wait as well.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 06 Sep 2017 :  18:36:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just looking at it - I REALLY like the way the Old Empires came out. Let me finish the coastlines on my new NEW Main project, and I'll see if I can't tinker with it a bit more. Not that I want to get back to it, but I may as well at least post what I have, so it is one less thing sitting on my 'back burner'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1309 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2017 :  00:12:31  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I've looking into things and I still think Okoth would be absorbed into Mulhorand, Okoth had 18 Sarrakhs left, out of 80 so before the spell plague, and the population was low else where.


Okoth has 18 left yeah. But they are not isolated. According tos sourcebooks like Shinning South, Okoth is linked to other sarruk enclaves across all Faerûn (and perhaps beyond) via portals. Like the one in Halruua (in Chasolné—that one is also mentioned in the FRCG*).

Perhaps that can explain how the other sarrukh and yuan-ti invaded so easily old Okoth: they have always had means of direct access to the city.

So yeah, Mulhorand can try to invade... they will have nearly every yuant-ti and sarrukh in Faerûn on their doorstep.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Plus I don't see the Wereserpents and Werecrocodiles remaining loyal to Okoth now that they're traditional Gods had returned, and most of Okoths population was Wereserpents and to a lesser extent Werecrocodiles.


Yeah, guys like Osiris, that kills them because reasons every now and them. While, they are citizens with rights in Okoth. I don't see that trade a wise.

Obviously, in your Realms you can make Mulhorand conquer the whole world if you want. But logically speaking, I don't see Mulhorand as powerful as they were.

They fear the Tymanther-Unther war. A war between an small nation vs a weakened nation. A powerful nation not need to fear in a conflict so small... yet, Mulhorand fears, and that says a lot.

Okoth is even a more powerful foe than those other two.

*FRCG, p.137
Chalsoné: Beyond the altar, a tunnel opens into a domed chamber. Three round passages lead into the earth from this chamber, leading to an ancient sarrukh site. Two sarrukh still reside here. They perform experiments on their lizardfolk servants and on captured travelers and sailors. Through magic portals, the site connects to Ilimar and Okoth.



The Sarrukh can't afford a protracted war with Mulhorand, their species is dying, they lost so many Sarrukh to the religious, war over Sseth vs Set the first time the they are an inch away from extinction, and even with an Yuan Ti and Lizardfolk buffer, they suffer casualties.

They can't even afford to risk even a handful of casualties now, every Sarrukh's life is precious.

And the Scalyfolk are far more divided now then in previous editions of Volo's GSarrukh any hint.

Before it was basically just Sseth/Set, M'dliess who was a minor good deity of soul purification, and an aspect of Talona, and a few Anthamas.

Then 4e added Zehir.

Now it's who knows how many Anthamas, Sseth, Maultk, Dendar, and other various Scalyfolk gods.

So I don't know how many Yuan Ti and Sarrukh Okoth could call upon.

And the Sarrukh have avoid direct conflict as much as possible to this point, they are not in a position of strength, even with all the portals.

And both Tymanther and Unther are stronger then you think, where as Okoth has to rely on servants it can't trust and ally who might not think it's worth a long brutal war with Mulhorand.

But maybe I'm wrong and Okoth buys Set and Mulhorand off, or they shift the capital location so Set can't find it.

Or Okoth offers an alliance in the hopes of appeasing Mulhorand.

At the very least Mulhorand would know it's there, it's secret existance is no longer a secret.

Also Nezram had been studying the Sarrukh for hundreds if not thousands of years, so maybe he is open to a deal.

Or Mulhorand just uses the Khaasta to wipe out the Sarrukh, I mean it's s powerful army willing to do the work for Mulhorand.
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