Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Is it Abeir-Toril or just Toril?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

DrGerm
Acolyte

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  15:08:20  Show Profile  Visit DrGerm's Homepage Send DrGerm a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
As I understand it, the world was once Abeir-Toril, then there was the first sundering and Abeir and Toril split by Ao.

My question is, after the second sundering, is it now Abeir-Toril again? Or, are Abeir and Toril still two separate planets?

Thanks!

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31516 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  17:34:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The whole thing of Abeir and Toril being two worlds is a retcon introduced with the 4E version of the Realms.

Ed Greenwood didn't name the planet, Jeff Grubb did. He dubbed it Toril, and then Abeir- was added to the front to put it at the top of the list of entries in the original boxed set. The Abeir- part was generally ignored, though, and the world was just called Toril.

When 4E came about, the whole Sundering thing was introduced, and there was a partial merging of worlds -- though they were still separate planets. Bits and pieces of the two swapped placed with each other.

And then we had the 5E Sundering, which was reverting things back to how they had been before -- meaning resetting the maps to prior editions.

Going by the most recent lore, Abeir and Toril have been two worlds since Ao first separated them. There was a little mixing and matching that went on, but that's been reversed.

Also, Abeir is slightly out of phase with Toril, meaning that it's not possible to travel betwixt them without portals. Spelljamming from one to the other is not doable.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  03:12:09  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't the early 2E Al-Qadim (Zakhara) stuff sometimes refer to Al-Toril?

Wooly downplays things a little.

Prior to 4E, "Abeir-Toril" was just the fancy full name of Toril, but "Abeir" was basically ignored by anyone who wasn't a pedantic scholar or gnomish cartographer.

From 4E onwards, Abeir and Toril are two separate (and separated) worlds which were originally one Abeir-Toril. Toril is still the Realms. Abeir is isolated in some special extraplanar place.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 31 May 2017 03:19:36
Go to Top of Page

Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
129 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  03:29:43  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Also, Abeir is slightly out of phase with Toril, meaning that it's not possible to travel betwixt them without portals. Spelljamming from one to the other is not doable.



Hmm, imagine if a spelljamming ship could phase between planes...

Phasejammer!


My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek

Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  03:35:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All the meta-gaming aside, technically it should just be 'Toril' now, since 'Abeir' still exists... as far as we know.

Didn't Abeir-Toril mean something? Like 'Cradle of Life', or was that Faerūn? I always get it mixed up.

EDIT:
If they overlap (occupying the same space but slightly 'out of sync' with one another - as they originally described it), Spelljamming would not be necessary. Now - after just commenting in the Mezro thread - I have to wonder if this 'other dimension' (that Mezro was hiding in) was really Abeir, and they just don't want to say it (because of all the lingering, anti-4e feelings still about).

Now I am starting to think of Abeir as more of a transitive plane, than a true world - sort of what I picture the Mittlemarch (the Border-Ethereal) to be. One more 'reflection' of the Prime Material. So instead of each (D&D setting) world having one of these 'side planes' as I recently theorized (for storing 'unused bits' of world), maybe its just one vast plane, sort of like how the Feywild and Shadowfell are - a reflection of the real world that sits next to it, just out of sync with it. Of course, then it becomes redundant with those other two I just mentioned, but at least it makes the whole concept of a 'world-piece storage area' more palatable/useful, by making it just a single plane all overgods/worlds (settings) can take pieces from (many worlds, ONE 'box of toys'). This also completely merges it with the 4e non-setting concept of 'Nerath' as well.

Hmmmmm... and since my idea of that 'First World' was just one near-infinite plane (and the Maztica material has stuff about the True World that could very well be Abeir). Perhaps Toril ISN'T really 'the world' at all. Neither is Oerth, or Krynn. Nor Mystara, Threnody, Aebrynis, etc... even Golarion. Maybe Abeir is actually the REAL world they are trying to put back together, and all the D&D settings are those clumps of puzzle pieces various overgods are working on, before trying to fit them back into the main work. Because of the fans we are, and how Abeir got introduced to us, we've only been looking at it from that perspective - as an 'adjunct' of Toril/FR, but if we step back and look at the 'big picture', it could actually be the other way around.

Abeir is like Yggdrasil...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 03:55:31
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31516 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  05:29:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Also, Abeir is slightly out of phase with Toril, meaning that it's not possible to travel betwixt them without portals. Spelljamming from one to the other is not doable.



Hmm, imagine if a spelljamming ship could phase between planes...

Phasejammer!





IIRC, pirates of gith (spacefaring cousins to githyanki and githzerai) can take elven ships into the astral plane. It's something to do with the ship being alive.

There was also an article in Dragon called "Voidjammers" that had ships sailing around on the astral plane.

And in Finder's Bane, an illithid nautiloid (minus its original illithid owners) was taken thru a gate in the Anauroch, and into the Outlands.

So in short, it's not a native functionality of spelljamming, but it is possible for 'jammers to function in the planes.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  06:21:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Gith captains could astral shift their entire vessel and crew. They require one of their special (psionic?) helms, they do not strictly require a living (elven) ship.

Although supplementary Spelljammer material seemed deliberately vague about whether such travel could only access the Astral or could access other planes/places. And we do not know if an analogue of Realmspace (or Wildspace) surrounds Abeir - we do not even know if this isolated world exists within a crystal sphere or is otherwise adjacent to the Phlogiston.

Planescape lore is equally unhelpful. We only know that Abeir's Primordials are (nominally) in charge of Abeir - as far as Ao allows, lol - so normal mechanisms of belief-based planar travel do not function.

Spelljammer and Planescape are 2E inventions. Abeir (as a world distinct from Abeir-Toril) is a 4E invention. And Realmslore from 4E onwards has thus far refused to offer real answers to this question.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

DrGerm
Acolyte

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  16:44:40  Show Profile  Visit DrGerm's Homepage Send DrGerm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Didn't Abeir-Toril mean something? Like 'Cradle of Life', or was that Faerūn? I always get it mixed up.



From the FR Wiki, that's what it says. And, it references the 1987 box set (which I don't have to check myself)

I do know that in the Roll for Initiative podcast from a few years ago with Tim Kask that I just listened to, he says something about choosing the "Abeir" part so that the name would show up at the top of alphabetical lists ;) And that Toril was taken from his home campaign.

Thanks for the discussion, you gave me some cool ideas :)

Edited by - DrGerm on 03 Jun 2017 16:49:05
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  17:33:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Jeff Grubb added the 'Abeir' part (the name of his own homebrew world) in front of Toril so it would come first. Thanks for taking the time to look that up.

So what does Faerūn mean? Was it 'the One Land'? Something like that, right?

Anyhow, the more I think of Abeir as a side-plane, rather than an actual world, the more I like it. Almost like a Ravenloft, except instead of 'Dark Powers' pulling the strings, its Overgods. Hmmmmm... maybe the 'Dark Powers' are a specific group of Overgods? maybe they are hiding certain puzzle-pieces from the others? So many ways to spin this!

Thus, 'Nerath' becomes the 'Domains of Dread' for the Abeir plane, just as 'Ravenloft' is for the Shadowfell, and 'Faerie' is for the Feywild. Could Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.

Three transitive planes, each with collections of 'pieces' gathered from other worlds. Maybe something can be done along an alignment axis? 'Good', Neutral, and 'Evil'? Not quite a good fit. 'Law & 'chaos' would be even worse. Anyway, I was thinking in terms of different groups of gods ('Dark Powers') all trying to recreate their own version of the 'First World' (because each of them would remember it from their own viewpoint, which could be very different than the others).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 17:34:39
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31516 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  17:42:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, Jeff Grubb added the 'Abeir' part (the name of his own homebrew world) in front of Toril so it would come first. Thanks for taking the time to look that up.

So what does Faerūn mean? Was it 'the One Land'? Something like that, right?

Anyhow, the more I think of Abeir as a side-plane, rather than an actual world, the more I like it. Almost like a Ravenloft, except instead of 'Dark Powers' pulling the strings, its Overgods. Hmmmmm... maybe the 'Dark Powers' are a specific group of Overgods? maybe they are hiding certain puzzle-pieces from the others? So many ways to spin this!

Thus, 'Nerath' becomes the 'Domains of Dread' for the Abeir plane, just as 'Ravenloft' is for the Shadowfell, and 'Faerie' is for the Feywild. Could Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.

Three transitive planes, each with collections of 'pieces' gathered from other worlds. Maybe something can be done along an alignment axis? 'Good', Neutral, and 'Evil'? Not quite a good fit. 'Law & 'chaos' would be even worse. Anyway, I was thinking in terms of different groups of gods ('Dark Powers') all trying to recreate their own version of the 'First World' (because each of them would remember it from their own viewpoint, which could be very different than the others).



It's an interesting idea... Though I would suggest having it squirrelled away somewhere aside from the Outer Planes. Maybe a demiplane hidden somewhere in the Inner Planes, or maybe a very large pocket dimension.

The reason I shy away from hiding it in the Outer Planes is simply because that's where the gods are, and Abeir didn't have gods.

I've also come to the conclusion that there are either multiple Prime Material Planes, all overlapping each other, or there is only one Prime and it has a lot of layers -- because we've got many examples of places on the Prime where things work one way, but differently in another place -- exactly the same way different planes/layers in the Outer Planes each have their own rules.

So Abeir could be a separate Prime (or layer of the Prime) altogether, one that simply isn't much bigger than a single world and with fewer connections to other planes.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  19:28:45  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From canon, at least, Abeir is in the same Prime of Toril, as both share Selune as their moon (4e Player's Guide). So, it seems that Abeir is in demiplane within Realmspace.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  19:31:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But that doesn't mean it couldn't be more.

In fact, that lends itself to being a plane, rather than a 'planet'.


"Abeir, the 'Demiplane of Dungeons'". LOL


EDIT:
It also makes more sense in terms of its silver sky, as well. Instead of having some sort of weird, 'protective dome' around it, we can just use the established rules for planes (that each has its own set of rules/physics). Perhaps Abeir is a plane where gods are not allowed (which opens up some other possibilities - is Sigil actually located in that plane as well? There are no 'doors' directly to the Outlands, AFAIK - just portals... the damn thing could really be anywhere)!

As for Selūne, I think that particular 'heavenly body' is MUCH more important to the Cosmology than we've been lead to believe. After all, she 'gave birth' to Mystryl, and the Weave seems to permeate everything (Mystra's fall - along with Azuth's - seems to have had catastrophic effects on the entirety of the D&Dverse). We can use some 'creative license' and say that every world has its 'Selūne' - that the goddess (primordial?) herself has some presence everywhere, and she manifests as the 'light in the darkness' (she 'reveals secrets', hence, Magic). Shar IS 'the darkness', and therefor obfuscates things. Then Mystra/Mystryl should be the secrets themselves. She is "that which lies in Shar's Darkness brought to Light".

Once again, I feel like I am treading very close to something...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 19:44:08
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  19:46:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, if Abeir-Toril means "Cradle of Life", and we know 'The Weave" = 'Life' according to Ed, and it surrounds all of Toril, that means while Toril literally means 'Life', Abeir must literally mean 'Cradle". Or Creche, or some other word that means 'the birthplace of all things".

Sounds like an appropriate word to describe The First World to me.

I love when new theories come full-circle.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 19:48:03
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31516 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  02:46:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

From canon, at least, Abeir is in the same Prime of Toril, as both share Selune as their moon (4e Player's Guide). So, it seems that Abeir is in demiplane within Realmspace.



Considering that we have multiple descriptions of what's in Toril's solar system, and none of them mention anything other than Toril and the Tears being in the vicinity of Selūne, then Abeir literally cannot be in the same Prime -- especially since it coming into phase with Toril would have meant two planets smashing into each other, which would have more of an effect than just a couple of transpositions here and there.

I would say that either Abeir got a copy of Selūne, or it was some sort of projection of the moon.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  03:56:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Considering that we have multiple descriptions of what's in Toril's solar system, and none of them mention anything other than Toril and the Tears being in the vicinity of Selūne, then Abeir literally cannot be in the same Prime -- especially since it coming into phase with Toril would have meant two planets smashing into each other, which would have more of an effect than just a couple of transpositions here and there.

I would say that either Abeir got a copy of Selūne, or it was some sort of projection of the moon.



What the Rich Baker said in the time about Abeir's location was:

quote:
I don't think we've spelled it out precisely, but I believe it to be a "dimensional phase" sort of thing -- you don't really see the one planet in the other planet's sky, but they are closely linked (most likely by portals and easy planar magic) so you can travel between the two more easily than you could go off to, say, the Nine Hells... provided you know how to do it.


So, is more likely within a demiplane in Realmspace's Prime plane, but close enough to have Selune as its moon. (or maybe even Selune is the entrance).

AFAIK, demiplanes aren't either in Astral Sea or Elemental Chaos, but that was 4e stuff. Dunno how those worked in earlier systems.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
335 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  04:31:29  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayCould Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.


Well, it has a steel sky. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then Mystra/Mystryl should be the secrets themselves. She is "that which lies in Shar's Darkness brought to Light".


Do you mean "Mystery"? ;)

I got this connection running The Tearing of the Weave. The false priests (Sharrans) at the Temple of Mystra tell you themselves: "Knowledge lies between the stars" and their Starry Gnosis represents a secret knowledge from the stars. The Mystrans have their own stargazing ceremonies, indicating the importance of stars and constellations. If Shar is the darkness and Selūne is the moon and the light, then Mystra is the revealed stars and secrets, that is, the mysteries of magic. Her own holy symbol is a mysterious mist descending from stars, after all.

I see the Mystran faith as a mystery religion, in which ascending to each level sees members initiated into new secret practices and knowledge, though it's less about keeping secrets and more about discovering new things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries

Or maybe it's all Sharran-inspired heresy. :)

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 04 Jun 2017 04:49:38
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31516 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  04:38:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan


I see the Mystran faith as a mystery religion, in which ascending to each level sees members initiated into new secret practices and knowledge, though it's less about keeping secrets and more about discovering new things.



You don't know how badly I want to break the rules and make a joking comparison to a particular real-world religion...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
335 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  04:44:36  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's how I ran the false temple. :D

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  05:15:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that ONE moon can be the moon for two different planets.

Even if the planets had some weird, hitherto undiscerned 'binary' relationship (and if one of the two was 'invisible', the orbit of the other would look pretty bizarre from space), they still wouldn't be able to share a moon. One might have a moon that was visible from the other world, but it could not - EVER - orbit both worlds.

Better to just say it's another plane (or in another plane/demiplane), and something unique about Selūne itself makes it visible even in the other plane (so that would be more like a 'ghost image' of Selūne). Of course, if it IS the Plane of Mirrors, well then, thats just the moon's reflection, isn't it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jun 2017 21:15:23
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  07:13:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Selune is both a satellite/moon and a goddess. And we know that no gods or goddesses have power over Abeir - although that doesn't strictly require they have no presence either. Mystra may be quasi-present in Abeir as well, given that it must have a counterpart to Toril's Weave. Remember that the central premise of the 4E Spellplague was Mystra's death causing all magic across all worlds to fail catastrophically - and Abeir seemingly "resonated" so strongly with Toril that big chunks of both worlds were transposed.

I like the idea of planar layers in the Prime. Much like Sigil might be viewed as a layer of the Outlands, yet utterly it seems utterly impossible to access or breach these layers without "permission" of whatever overdeity maintains control over the domain.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  09:09:11  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I also think that is maybe the nature of Abeir and Toril. Reading the Devil You Know, it seems like if the Realms were divided into two different timelines (one from Abeir and other for Toril) slightly desynchronized one another, but coexisting in the same "place" in spacetime.

In fact, is much like when the Doctor couldn't detect the planets of the Medusa Cascade because they were one second desynchronized with the rest of the universe.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jun 2017 09:16:38
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  11:10:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Clearly the Doctor's understanding of time, space, and the universe is far different from the sorts of physics I was taught, lol. But the same should be said of "physics" within D&D and Realmslore - it follows different rules involving magics and gods (and sometimes overgods) which can be observed as self-evident truths without requiring or admitting any "scientific" explanation.

The fact is that 4E lore describes Abeir's "location" as being somehow out of phase, isolated, and inaccessible from Toril. Ao locked Abeir "away", apparently the Primordials can't get out and the Gods/Goddesses can't get in (since I imagine they wouldv'e tried by now - especially those like Myrkul, Bhaal, Bane, Tyr, Mask, and Cyric known to have bent or exploited or defied Ao's decrees). It seems that any mechanisms which might allow scrying or travel between these worlds would only operate under Ao's conditions and Ao's authority, and Ao does not commune with mortals.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Jun 2017 11:26:08
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  21:35:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I would imagine Selūne is/was a primordial (despite three editions that says she was a deity), so that might 'bypass' the restrictions on 'no gods' (although primordials ARE 'gods', I think... its all so confusing...). I may have to swap my definitions 'deity' and 'god' yet again (but 'god' does make a better, non-specific catch-all term for 'greater than mortal'). Its fairly just to say that when the sources say 'god' they usually mean deity (a being capable of receiving energy through worship). Hmph... and having just said that, I think I may have hit-upon the mechanism of why that actually works.

Anyhow, not sure if I prefer spinning Abeir now (as a plane) as the Plane of Mirrors, or as my concept of the 'Mittlemarch' (a term borrowed from Michael Moorcock) - basically the 'world' that exists inside the Border Ethereal (and people who know how can concentrate and 'see into' one from the other, like 'ghosts'; the downside of that being that then they can also notice you as well).

The two timelines thing - now I am back to thinking about Toril's 'lost timeline' again. The 'would have been' had the Elves NOT (retroactively) interfered with the Sundering and created Evermeet. Entire peoples, actions, and cultures were simply 'lost' as if they had never existed. That means we would have had one timeline up to the point when the Elves cast their ritual, and then their would have been a divergent timeline that came into existence when evermeet did. So maybe 'Abeir' is the Plane of Possibilities? The 'might-have-beens'?

And maybe that's how Shar got her 'Dark Chronology' - she was able to steer Toril down a side-path (of 'prophesy') it should not have been on? (and now I am thinking what WotC did with Mystra is what Paizo did with Aroden... and both 'unforeseen disappearances of a god' happened "a century ago" to the setting's current timeline... interesting, no?) Basically, that was the same type of event - the timeline became diverted and now prophesy is 'broken'. Somehow she was able to use her 'shadow powers' to detect one of these side-paths. I believe Szass Tam cast some sort of ritual where he was able to do something similar (I still haven't read that series though... sorry RLB).

So maybe all of these 'side planes' (quantum realities 'out of sync' with our own) - (Border) Ethereal, Shadow(fell), Feywild, Plane of Mirrors, whatever (Planes of possibilities and of dreams?) - are all just 'echoes' of other timelines when they branches?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jun 2017 21:47:15
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2017 :  22:07:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or maybe Abeir is truly unique. The 4E Realmslore asserts that Abeir is a one-of-a-kind special case, resulting from the actions of primordials ands deities and Ao. Not intended in the beginning, not intended for eternity, only a design flaw which needed to be corrected (by amputating an entire world, lol) before undesirable conditions actually worsened.

My point being that if the lore makes so many special efforts to assure us that Abeir is a categorically unique case, why continue to speculate on how Abeir fits into existing models?

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  03:11:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, I would imagine Selūne is/was a primordial (despite three editions that says she was a deity), so that might 'bypass' the restrictions on 'no gods' (although primordials ARE 'gods', I think... its all so confusing...). I may have to swap my definitions 'deity' and 'god' yet again (but 'god' does make a better, non-specific catch-all term for 'greater than mortal'). Its fairly just to say that when the sources say 'god' they usually mean deity (a being capable of receiving energy through worship). Hmph... and having just said that, I think I may have hit-upon the mechanism of why that actually works.




My theory is that primordials is just a "race" of gods, much like there are humans, and elves, and whatnot. In 4e, primordials called Toril's gods "estelars". So, I believe that estelars are the race of gods that came from the Astral plane, while primordials are the gods that came from the Elemental planes.

As for Evermeet stuff... AFAIK, Evermeet's Sundering is related to the Abeir-Toril's Sundering and the Second Sundering (too much sunderings).

So, yeah, I guess Abeir is potentially the lost timeline you're talking about. Head-canoned, in fact.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jun 2017 03:14:10
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7433 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  13:59:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that ONE moon can be the moon for two different planets.

Even if the planets had some weird, hitherto undiscerned 'binary' relationship (and if one of the two was 'invisible', the orbit of the other would look pretty bizarre from space), they still wouldn't be able to share a moon. One might have a moon that was visible from the other world, but it could not - EVER - orbit both worlds.

Better to just say it's another plane (or in another plane/demiplane), and something unique about Selūne itself makes it visible even in the other plane (so that would be more like a 'ghost image' of Selūne). Of course, if it IS the Plane of Mirrors, well then, thats just the moon's reflection, isn't it?



Just a concept below:

In the other world, the moon actually looks like the image that Leira projects over the moon in "Toril space".... and in Abeir, the image of the moon looks like there's people living on it, when they don't.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000