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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  10:51:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes i view quasi power as everything not a god. The power levels of them can indeed exceed that of actual gods in certain circumstances (see lords of the nine or demon lords) but they have a single physical presence that can be killed unlike a god which has multiple vessels and can only be slain on his home plane when the main vessel is slain.

As for giving up power i dont see why not. The totem beasts of uthgardt donated power to uthgar to make him a quasi power. The seven lost gods donated some or all power to the dark three with the same purpose.

Some of those creatures survived and those that did remained quasi powers. But why could one not relinquish almost all your power to become mortal once again.

I reckon any mortal achieving 30HD becomes a quasi power. At that point they are too powerful for thwir mortal form and so it changes them. That power can be stolen or donated to another being.

Ubtao found a way to donate his power by shattering himself which created a new being.

There shouldnt be one way to gain or lose quasi power or godhood. Have multiple (ie hundreds) methods keeps things interesting.

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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
741 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  11:15:15  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do we really know about what the primordials are?

We know that's not what they were originally called, it's just a name sages applied to them later (4e FRCG p42)
We know they were powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (4e FRCG p41)
We know they were powerful enough to fight against the gods in the Dawn War (4e FRCG p42)
We know they originated in the Elemental Chaos as the gods originated in the Astral Sea (4e DMG p160)
We know they created the substance of the first worlds, as well as the Feywild and the Shadowfell as byproducts (4e DMG p161)
We know that they can be worshipped as deities (Akadi, Kossuth, Ubtao etc throughout editions)
We know that mortals can ascend to become primordials (eg. Bazim-Gorag, 4e FRCG p79)
We know that they are cognizant enough to be able to weave plots and deceive each other (eg. Ubtao, 4e FRCG p42)
We know that the primordials that lost the Dawn War were slain, imprisoned, or driven away from Toril (4e FRCG p42)
We know that some of the imprisoned primordials were later released by the batrachi, and ultimately ended up in Abeir (4e FRCG p41)
We know that many of the primordials that ended up in Abeir were slain by dragonkind (4e FRCG p200)

I still like the theory that although they are beings of great power that seem to care less for mortals than deities do, the term "primordial" is more apt for their current state (after their Dawn War loss) than their original state.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  12:56:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im not sure we can state any of that as a thing we know. They come from the myths and legends and ed has said in the past they should not be treated as fact

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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
741 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  13:54:05  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very true. But it's still all we have to go on, so hopefully the post will stimulate some discussion. I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten too.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5636 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  15:11:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

What do we really know about what the primordials are?

We know that's not what they were originally called, it's just a name sages applied to them later (4e FRCG p42)
We know they were powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (4e FRCG p41)
We know they were powerful enough to fight against the gods in the Dawn War (4e FRCG p42)
We know they originated in the Elemental Chaos as the gods originated in the Astral Sea (4e DMG p160)
We know they created the substance of the first worlds, as well as the Feywild and the Shadowfell as byproducts (4e DMG p161)
We know that they can be worshipped as deities (Akadi, Kossuth, Ubtao etc throughout editions)
We know that mortals can ascend to become primordials (eg. Bazim-Gorag, 4e FRCG p79)
We know that they are cognizant enough to be able to weave plots and deceive each other (eg. Ubtao, 4e FRCG p42)
We know that the primordials that lost the Dawn War were slain, imprisoned, or driven away from Toril (4e FRCG p42)
We know that some of the imprisoned primordials were later released by the batrachi, and ultimately ended up in Abeir (4e FRCG p41)
We know that many of the primordials that ended up in Abeir were slain by dragonkind (4e FRCG p200)

I still like the theory that although they are beings of great power that seem to care less for mortals than deities do, the term "primordial" is more apt for their current state (after their Dawn War loss) than their original state.



I think that the sage who called Bazim-Gorag an "ascended primordial" was simply incorrect. Primordial'ness should not be something you can ascend to. I can buy someone becoming an elemental quasi-power. I can buy a new primordial being formed even today. I'm of the idea that primordials should be "formed" as a primordial from the moment of their creation. I guess after this thread has progressed, I'm seeing we simply need to have some new terms to describe things, and primordial was getting a bit overused.

On Bazim-Gorag in particular, the idea put forth that mortals can "combine" with primordials may be possible, and maybe that's what happened.... the batrachi released primordials.... and maybe they did so by "binding" themselves to said primordials.

HOMEBREW WARNING
In fact, this would kind of fit with the idea I had put forth about the Katashakan humans and their empire, where they were binding with nyama-nummo (which were imprisoned beings/vestiges/far realms entities of all sorts, not necessarily just primordials). However, maybe the humans had a better control over the link since the link was formed via dream magic.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13775 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  18:28:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if we are going to have 'demi-' and 'quasi-', we have to have 'para-' (so that we have being-titles that correspond to all the planer variations).

Anything beyond 'deity' level of godhood I've just been lumping into my own 'Ordial' category (just becaue I like the way it works out - Prime Ordials work in/on the Prime Material). Of course, that means there should be astralordials and perhaps even etherealordials (Ætherdials?)...

...and now my head is starting to hurt again.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2017 18:29:03
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  18:30:49  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i was proposing that demi and quasi are essentially the same thing, sages just misunderstood things and got it wrong.

Demipowers are not gods, they are quasi powers - beings on the cusp of godhood that are limited to a single form.

A god is absolutely tied to the outer planes, is not tied to a single body/vessel, and is powered by belief.

A quasi power is not tied to the outer planes, does have a single body/vessel which if slain will end their existence but otherwise they are immortal, and they are not powered by belief but can use it (to become a god).

Quasi powers are not mortals. They are something way beyond mortal. However being a quasi power is not an indication of power level. Quasi powers can exist that are more powerful (comparatively speaking) than most gods. Similarly there are some quasi powers that are seemingly weaker than some mortals (Elrem springs to mind, and the Dark Three were certainly able to overpower their quasi power victims).

Some things we just arent supposed to understand. Creating 1000 categories for things will just confuse things.

You should be able to acquire and lose quasi power status just as you can acquire and lose godhood. Its the specifics of the process we dont know about that should be as varied as the stars. That way it can keep players guessing for ages as to how to achieve it.

I always go back to the 1e realms campaign setting guide for the closest version to eds dream and it usually helps.

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 01 Mar 2017 18:42:48
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sleyvas
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USA
5636 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  18:47:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, if we are going to have 'demi-' and 'quasi-', we have to have 'para-' (so that we have being-titles that correspond to all the planer variations).

Anything beyond 'deity' level of godhood I've just been lumping into my own 'Ordial' category (just becaue I like the way it works out - Prime Ordials work in/on the Prime Material). Of course, that means there should be astralordials and perhaps even etherealordials (Ætherdials?)...

...and now my head is starting to hurt again.



Well, demigod should go back to what it was.... person born of a god. D&D kind of coopted that word and changed it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13775 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  19:01:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for 'tiers', this is what I have

Normal person (NPC), heroic, Paragon, Epic = 'Mortal'
celestial, powerful fiend, demigod, saint, Chosen = 'Exarch'
lesser, intermediate, greater god = 'deity'
'high God' is a special rank I created, to differentiate the 'pantheonic leaders'. They may just be an extremely powerful deity (DvR 21-25), or they could be a primodial that has become a deity as well.
Any god that does not fit fit either the exarch or 'deity' (ascended mortal) tier is an Ordial. You guys' 'Quasi-deity' category is actually a greater umbrella category, because it could include exarchs. Yours is more like an offshoot-category: A powerful outsider who has obtained deity status. So it doesn't really have anything to do with 'power level'.

'god' itself (not to be confused with God, or even GOD) just means a very powerful outsider. For example, commoners of K-T consider even nature spirits to be 'gods' (Kami). The word 'kami' I prefer to 'outsider' myself, but I doubt it would catch on; they mean the same thing, pretty much. In English, the closest approximation would be 'supernatural'. In fact, 'god' doesn't even have to mean its all that powerful (there are plenty of mortals that can easily defeat demigods) - at ts core, its just means "its a boss" - it commends others inside the 'Celestial food-chain'. So you can have a demigod - who's technically 'a god' - in charge of large numbers of people, and you have an archangel that is far more powerful than the 'god', and yet, not be a god itself, because it 'flies solo'.

So 'god' is not a level of power, its a job description. It just means 'boss' in outsider-speak.

EDIT:
Thinking a bit further on this, I think we are making a classic mistake here all along. With mortals we have two different descriptors - class & race. Why are we combining that with gods? Shouldn't gods also have a race/class? Or does that even matter at those levels of power (because 'race' is something physical, although perhaps 'race' can apply to something different, like energy forms)?

So 'deity' is just a job. 'Primordial' is a created being (sorry batrachi dude, but you are not what you think you are!), and 'ascended mortal' is just that - a being that was born in the prime material. We need a new category; maybe 'denizen' - a denizen could be an outsider who was born through a natural process, not created out of thin air. That would take care of most of the folk living in Planescape (I never really liked that they were all 'outsiders', because most are just normal people who happen to be born on some other plane than the prime material). Maybe this was something that PS messed up on? Maybe we should have kept to a more religious/mythological model, and said all the people living in the Great Wheel are 'dead'? hey shouldn't age, and they shouldn't have children.

So there should be some sort of god 'races', and then job descriptions - that might better sort-out all of this confusion.

Looking at a list of 'Angelic hierarchy', I am tempted to apply this to Celestials the way 'type' used to be applied to fiends. To me, Angels are like Ordials - created beings. Interestingly, the list goes - Angels, Archangels, Principalities, Powers...

Powers? Perhaps using these classifications might help us? Catholic Church to the rescue (of D&D)! LMAO

The next are - Virtues, Dominations, Thrones, Cherubim, & Seraphim. Weird, I would have put those last two first (Michael - an archangel - is low on the totem pole?)
But that works for us, because that means everything above those first two tiers is 'a god' (Christianity is polytheistic - who'd have thought?) What they call 'Pricipalities' (Saints?) would be our Demigods.

EDIT2
Maybe the Batrachi CAN be a primordial - I keep forgetting, everything that came into being in that First World (2nd universe? We actually have no way of knowing what # universe we are on) was created by something else. 'Mortality' did not exist until after the Godwar and The Sundering, which mean 'birth' came into being at the same time as 'death'.

The only problem with all that is Sarrukh liches... there shouldn't be any. They should be immortal, by default. And YES, that means there should be a handful of 'First Men' running around as well, but they're probably busy chopping each other's heads off, the crazy bastiches.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2017 19:42:20
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

237 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  20:49:41  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Bazim-Gorag in particular, the idea put forth that mortals can "combine" with primordials may be possible, and maybe that's what happened.... the batrachi released primordials.... and maybe they did so by "binding" themselves to said primordials.



I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a long time now, but it finally clicked... I think we're onto something here that can coherently tie together the cosmology and reveal the significance of the batrachi in the multiverse...

I think the batrachi are symbiotic organisms similar to the Goa'Uld from Stargate... If this kind of a symbiotic organism were able to find ways to possess entities on the scale of Primordials, this explains a ton... And it makes the concept of multi-spheric deities much more coherent as well.

The ancient greek poet Homer wrote a parody of the Illiad called the "Batrachomyomachia", which is about a war between Frogs & Mice... hence the association of the word Batrachi with Frogs. However, after reading the plot I am thinking that the connection to Frogs is an accidental association... and that the Batrachi species is actually the Water Snake in the story that frightened the Frogs (especially because the Mice never saw the Water Snake, and the symbiotic creatures from Stargate could easily be described as Water Snakes)...

Additionally, I suspect the name "batrachi" is related to their use of crystal structures for their cities. This occured to me when I was reading about the ruins of Petra... "Petra" is the greek word for "Rock", and in arabic it is pronounced "Al-Batra". This makes me think "Batra"="Rock/Crystal" and "Chi"="Soul/Energy"...


...or maybe the howling winds of Pandemonium are finally getting to me.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
741 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  23:08:29  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I think that the sage who called Bazim-Gorag an "ascended primordial" was simply incorrect. Primordial'ness should not be something you can ascend to. I can buy someone becoming an elemental quasi-power. I can buy a new primordial being formed even today. I'm of the idea that primordials should be "formed" as a primordial from the moment of their creation. I guess after this thread has progressed, I'm seeing we simply need to have some new terms to describe things, and primordial was getting a bit overused.

For better or worse, that "ascended batrachi" wasn't presented as a sage's view of myth and legend, it was just stated as fact. Of course, it can easily be argued that ALL lorebooks should be taken as from a sage's viewpoint. So YMMV. However, I don't think we can easily dismiss the idea of a mortal ascending to become a "primordial".

And it fits so well with my primordials = gods of the Elemental Chaos theory...
quote:
On Bazim-Gorag in particular, the idea put forth that mortals can "combine" with primordials may be possible, and maybe that's what happened.... the batrachi released primordials.... and maybe they did so by "binding" themselves to said primordials.

I think this "combining" idea is the best explanation for those who aren't a fan of the idea of a mortal batrachi ascending to become a primordial.

You could also potentially argue that Bazim-Gorag has become what mortals call a primordial, but they're mistaken. He's primordial-like, in that he's "a being of manifest entropy", but he doesn't fit the original template.

I think we're in another one of these situations where there's not too much more written in the lore to go on, here, unless I'm mistaken. It might just have to be homebrew o'clock.

EDIT:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe the Batrachi CAN be a primordial - I keep forgetting, everything that came into being in that First World (2nd universe? We actually have no way of knowing what # universe we are on) was created by something else. 'Mortality' did not exist until after the Godwar and The Sundering, which mean 'birth' came into being at the same time as 'death'.

The only problem with all that is Sarrukh liches... there shouldn't be any. They should be immortal, by default. And YES, that means there should be a handful of 'First Men' running around as well, but they're probably busy chopping each other's heads off, the crazy bastiches.

Where are these concepts of the First World and "Mortality not existing until after the Sundering" from? Is it FR, core, or homebrew?

If I'm following you correctly... it's an interesting thought that the "creator races" were closer templates to the gods than the mortals of today, being able to create other races - like the batrachi creating the doppelgangers if I'm remembering correctly. So perhaps the creator races find it easier to ascend to the power of a deity or a primordial...

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 01 Mar 2017 23:21:22
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
741 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2017 :  02:43:02  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something else to consider re: Bazim-Gorag found on p5 of the Grand History of the Realms:
Bazim-Gorag was one of the batrachi who fled to Limbo after the batrachi released the primordials, inducing massive climate change. There he was one of the batrachi that founded the Supreme Throne, and there they were transformed by Ramenos to "serve his divine purpose". He goes on to note that "the agenda of your Lord Kossuth is not so different from my own" in what sounds like an entreaty to someone to free him so that he may scatter armies and sew chaos.

Could it be Ramenos's alterations that allowed him to "ascend" to become a primordial? This would mean he was such during the 3e era, but I checked his stats in Champions of Ruin and he does have 25 hit dice... so perhaps Ramenos made him into a lesser primordial somehow?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13775 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2017 :  07:45:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, here's a new theory, connected to my old theory, with some really old speculation of mine sprinkled in...

OD&D (and maybe 1e - I forget now, its been so long) had it where only humans had souls. I used to go with this, but I moved away from it over the years..

What if by 'human' they really just meant 'mortal'? This ties into other things I've said recently - before The Sundering there was NO death, which means all the Creator Races were immortal. I have it where birth came hand-in-hand with death (the Creatori had no need to procreate, because they were simply created 'whole cloth' from the stuff of that First World). So no birth, and no death.. and no 'death of the First World', so also no 'soul stuff {Elan} floating around loose).

Post Sundering we have death, but we also have birth, and with it something new - mortals, born with souls. I've long held that it requires a mortal soul to become a deity (it has something to do with the fact that they are all connected - all really part of something greater). I actually don't even need my 'Unimind' theory anymore - everything is linked by this 'soul stuff' that is being collected (so there is a 'group consciousness' possessed by the souls-stuff itself, which is what allows the two-way conduit that deity-hood requires).

Bazim Gorag has no soul - technically, every being existing before The Sundering is a primordial, although we usually only apply the term to the 'greater' variety. All outsiders around then, all Creatori (Creator Races) - everything (even 'legendary beasts'). All 'primal', and therefor, all varieties of primordial. That appellation is not normally applied to the low-level proto-mortals that existed then, because they weren't even powerful enough to be recognized individually by 'the powers that be'. Just like no-one ever names individual elementals. Even in our games, we don't bother to name individual monsters, like goblins. They're just 'grunts'. So what if one of them became 'a special' - made a name for itself? Like Bazim-Gorag? He could have become powerful enough to be noticed, and thus got 'classified' as a primordial. i don't think its actually a template (like what a deity has) - its just a 'private club' of sorts. Like being an 'archmage' - its just what you get called when you start to become someone important; it has no real relative 'power level' attached.

So you got a couple of 'tiers' of Godhood way at the top, like Supernals, Eternals, and Sidereals are all 'Ordials' and those 'no-name grunts' are just Outsiders (Kami), but some of the more powerful ones ('bosses' in charge of large numbers of others) may get classified as 'Ordials' ("Those that bring Order"), but would be considered Prime Ordials (the lowest rank). Thus, the only thing we find weird is that this process happened to a member of a creator race, but the truth is, it could have happened to any of the 'lesser' beings existing pre-Sundering. Its pretty-much just a job description, not a 'race' (which is how I was always thinking of it before, but I normally only applied that logic to deities).

So, if you obtain that level of power but have no soul you become a primordial, but if you have/had a soul (or manage to acquire one through absorption), you can become a deity. <split>

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2017 07:55:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13775 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2017 :  07:47:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
<split for brevity>

I think thats a really cool, flavorful (alternative) name for the creator races - "The Souless". Some probably stuck together after the cataclysm (like the Sarrukh) and formed small, tight-knit groups, whereas others may have each gone their own separate ways, for the most part (the Batrachi), or left en mass for 'greener pastures' (the Fey), or just up and disappeared (the Aearee), or decided to hunt down all others of their kind (Mankind - the 'Immortals') - "There can be only one" (because, ya know, humans is crazy).

One of my favorite series of 3rd party products for RPGs has always been the Catalyst Series of Citybooks by Flying Buffalo - one of them had a 'first man' in it. I've always felt there were a few of them sprinkled around amongst the myriad D&D worlds (maybe like the Amberites of the Chronicles of Amber, which I know Ed was fond of, and used for inspiration). There would probably only be one any world, if any, and no more than maybe 2-3 (BECAUSE they tend to hunt each other). Maybe some would even consider themselves the 'secret lords' of their respective worlds (a 'Vandal Savage' type character from DC comics).

Also, I think the 'purer' the bloodline, the more of that immortality would have rubbed off. In other words, the first generation of 'mortals' may have lived 1000+ years. This is why Elves are so long-lived, and other demi-humans are longer lived than humans - the greater the impurities that have crept in, the shorter the lifespan (Drow, for example,have been breeding with other things even before they went into the Underdark). Humans breed like cockroaches - almost as bad as goblinkind. Each successive generation would lose some of its lifespan, but if a human today would breed with one of these 'Immortals', you would have a VERY long-lived person as a result. This would explain the 'High Men' in the Middle Earth setting - stronger, faster, smarter, etc, and longer-lived than normal men. It also works well with some of the ages given in the Old Testament for humans (like Methuselah). Their bloodline has remained 'purer' to the original. Of course, those 'originals' are also souless...

Vampires trade their souls to become immortal, but they are not true immortals, and require blood to maintain themselves. I theorize that the Plane of Mirrors is actually the 'soul world' (The Ethereal, actually), so when you don't have a soul, you don't have a reflection (so I guess that means immortals, just like vampires, don't have reflections). And your shadow is really your spirit (mind), from the astral, but thats another story (part of my Body, Mind, & Soul theories).

Hmmmm... that means all creator Races would have no reflections... weird, but kinda cool. Imagine a primordial standing over a large body of water, and people realize everything but it is reflected in the water - its gives them a bit of a 'Lovecraftian' feel, no? It works for me; 'Elder Evils' and 'Eldritch Horrors' - all the same thing to me. Things so alien even mirrors deny their existence.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2017 01:10:12
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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 02 Mar 2017 :  09:02:56  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To further the discussion, here's a few more choice quotes, this time from 4e's Manual of the Planes (p70-71).
quote:
The primordials (hundreds or perhaps thousands in number) are ancient forces of creation that were first to emerge from the Elemental Chaos. In a frenzy of creation, they built the world from the Elemental Chaos’s churning matter and energy. They are primal aspects of nature, driven to create and re-create in an endless cycle of building and destruction. If the primordials had been left to their desires, the world would have remained a place of elemental fury and spectacular destruction.

quote:
The primordials are raw, untamed chaos in elemental form, almost indistinguishable from the plane that birthed them. They possess power and intellect to rival or exceed the deities, but they are far from subtle. They don’t represent ideals or concepts — they embody the natural forces of creation and annihilation. They exist solely to act out that cycle, using the churning tempest of the Elemental Chaos as paint and canvas.

quote:
Though the primordials cling to only a tiny fraction of the power they held before their war with the deities, they still have servants and worshipers[/b] — elementals and mortals who view them as patrons, guides, or potential allies against the gods and their servants.

Plus, an example of one of the primordials (Istishia) in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Like all the elemental lords, Istishia is relatively unfeeling toward his followers on Abeir-Toril. His reactions are utterly unpredictable and thus, in an odd way, predictable in their unpredictability. The reasoning behind Istishia's actions is incomprehensible to most of Faerun's inhabitants, including his worshipers. The alien and uncaring stance of Istishia and the other elemental lords has led to the mistaken impression in the Realms that they are only lesser powers and their followers merely oddball cultists. During the Time of Troubles, Istishia was not spotted in the Realms.

There are similar entries for the other elemental lords.

I guess the bottom line out of this information isn't necessarily new, but perhaps worth repeating: the primordials have worshippers, and can even grant spells, but they don't particularly care about the affairs of mortals. If I had to guess, I would guess that the primordials only interact with mortals to further their agenda in the universe, rather than derive power from their worship like deities do.
We can also see again that the primordials who lost the war are diminished in power - perhaps even losing much of that stated intelligence.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This ties into other things I've said recently - before The Sundering there was NO death, which means all the Creator Races were immortal.

I don't think there's a problem with this in FR-only cosmologies, but we know that there were souls around before the Dawn War if you're incorporating core-4e into your wider view. They drifted off into a realm beyond at first (through gateways such as Death's Reach), until some primordials blocked it up and started stealing the power of the souls. Nerull eventually comes along (or possibly Aurom before him) and takes the souls' power for himself. Then the Raven Queen usurps his role, but releases the souls. We know that the Raven Queen was around in the Dawn War, before the creator races were even born.

But, only a problem if your cosmology uses the 4e stuff. Or, maybe your cosmology still uses the 4e stuff, but the creator races are an exception to this because they were specifically created without souls for some reason. Or, maybe the 4e stuff only applies to 4e's First World.

Is the creator races being soulless your idea, or does it come from the lore?

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 02 Mar 2017 09:04:15
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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Mar 2017 :  22:51:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, maybe an idea would be that prior to the creation of "death" and the outer planes, beings had spirits. When they "passed" their spirit was churned through the elemental chaos and "reformed". Basically, reincarnation. Then beings started getting souls, which travelled to the outer planes. Then the outer planes at some point even started using this soul energy to create their own beings.

Not sure if I like it, but throwing it out for discussion.

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Mar 2017 :  02:00:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, since 'death' only came into the world after the Dawn war/Godwar/War of Light & Darkness. I don't see how there could have been ANY concept of an 'afterlife' or 'souls'. At that point, a being was just one thing - it was the 'end all, be all' of its existence. There was no 'before' or 'after' - in fact, there probably wasn't even time near the beginning for any of these things to have meaning.

So taking what Sleyvas just suggested, and some other stuff I've thrown around - before the World was Sundered, and the Prime Material Plane created from it, the concept of 'physicality' was even an 'iffy' thing. A being's shape was probably much more 'fluid' (the more powerful the being, the greater the leeway it would have in this regard). Thus, everything was a 'Spirit' (or Kami, as I mentioned earlier, which means the same thing). So there were just these 'spiritual beings' wandering around the Midgard*, and while most of the 'powers' were working on building the universe itself, some specific powers were working on races to populate it all (so that First World may have been like the Well World, in some parts). The concept of the trinity - Body, Mind, & Soul (Material, Astral, and Ethereal) - didn't exist, because things were fragmented the way they are now. Everything existed on a single plane. Now beings have to exist on multiple planes at once. 'Spirits' are manufactured from the planestuff itself (as it is with fiends, etc) - this is why after a time they can reform. They have no actual basis in 'the real' (or what we know of as 'reality' now). Souls are something else entirely - I equate 'spirit' with the mind in my model (the thing that gets stored in the astral after a person dies). However, there still would be no need for any type of afterlife - whether you use any of my theories (or any other fan theories), it doesn't matter - I am just not seeing there being any type of afterlife in the 'before time' period. And dating the Raven Queen to back then is just lunacy (she took Nerull's place, and Nerull has always been around in GH, so that makes no sense - she HAS TO BE a fairly recent edition to the cosmology.

NOW, if we want to say she was created in the confusion of the Spellplague (Great Cataclysm, 'Grand Conjunction', whatever, etc), and at that time she usurped Nerull's place, she may have used that - 'the reorder of the planes/reality itself' in order to make people believe she had always been around. A retcon, that makes the retcon itself in-game canon. So she would only be around a century or so, and anyone older than that, when asked, would get a far-away look in their eyes and be like, "The Raven Queen? I recall hearing stories about her as a child... I don't quite recollect the stories themselves, though... odd, that." In fact, since reality itself became unhinged (the Great wheel got re-shuffled, and pieces of various worlds got swapped back-and-forth, etc.) and some of that may have been Ravenloft style, with folks not even realizing stuff changed, we can use that to 'fudge' any of the inconsistencies we want. Things don't have to really have 'One Truth' - multiple truths can work when time itself gets affected (an event like the Spellplague could have created a nigh-infinite number of alternate probabilities). Another way of looking at it is how it worked in the movie Dark City, where every night the city changes, and the peoples lives are altered, and no-one ever realizes it. 'Truth' itself becomes an illusion, in that situation.

And I really dislike primordials having followers in the same way as deities - its just makes them different names for the same thing, at that point. Its boring. Its one of the very few things I was on board with with 4e right from the beginning - making the elemental lords primordials, and keeping them 'different' than normal gods. I think the only reason why they back-peddled from that is because they were forced to back-peddle away from just about everything 4e did, whether it was good or not (because at the end of the day, who gets to decide which was which?) I think elemental lords (and other, non-deity 'gods') should just have cults, plain and simple. give them normal priest stuff up to level three (keeping to the old SJ lore about levels 1-3 being self-generated, or provided by the universe itself, through 'faith'). then from level 4 on, they could have a specialized class of their own (like 3e's PrC's). give them more mage-like magic after that (like full access to one of the elemental schools). WE could just spin it that "people thought elemental powers were worshiped the same way", because they still got spells, and could even be more powerful than true priests (of a deity). Too bad 'Warlock' is spoken for - maybe bring back 'Witchdoctor'? Thats the class humanoids used for divine casters.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Mar 2017 :  02:13:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Footnote for above placed here - sorry

*Midgard: Michaal Moorcock's novels had a very interesting take on this - The Middle Marches. It was almost like D&D's 'Border Ethereal', and similar to how we sometimes use the feywild and Shadowfell (imperfect reflections of our world).

I've stolen that, and use it as my near Ethereal, and from that place, you can either enter the 'deep ethereal', The Feywild, or the Shadowfell (think of it as going straight, up, or down, but in a metaphysical kind of way). The Shadowfell has a 'border area' itself (basically a mix of the Middlemarches and Shadow), and from there you can 'deeper into the shadows', or cross into the realm of death (the upper or lower planes). This region could also be coterminus with the border ethereal. Now that I'm thinking about it, I may say that 'realm of death' is really the Fugue, which is 'deaths weigh-station'. So you can 'go ethereal', then cross into the 'veil of shadow', and then back out of that into the Fugue, and from there maybe travel to any of the outer planes (because The Fugue needs to be connected to ALL the afterlifes). Not an easy trip, but 'rescuing someone from hell' is never supposed to be easy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2017 02:15:07
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Ayrik
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Posted - 03 Mar 2017 :  02:43:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadowrun has an interesting take on the Etheric plane as well, although it commonly refers to it as the "Astral".

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Wrigley
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  11:19:48  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Shadowrun has an interesting take on the Etheric plane as well, although it commonly refers to it as the "Astral".



Interesting thought that those settings are actualy connectable :-) and also it means that metaplanes are inner planes (or demiplanes) in FR :-)

As for ethereal and shadow planes I view them as "filters" through which positive and negative energy flows to material plane and with it are both Weaves connected to those planes - Weave IS in ethereal and Shadow Weave IS in shadow plane. Kind of like places where entropy and creation come to this world and where their tools are...
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Mar 2017 :  20:49:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The dark of it is that its really all just one place - thats why all these 'planes' look like one another. They are all just 'layers' of the same thing.

As 3-dimensional beings, we mortals only know how to move about in the 3-dimensions (although we are aware of the 4th - time - we haven't yet figured out how to control our movement through it). These other 'planes' (mostly the ones we think of as 'transitive planes') are just other layers - directions we haven't become aware of, nor know how to move through... but 'gods' (spirits) can.

To my way of thinking, 'the Fugue' (realm of death) is just two layers away, and by moving toward it, we must pass through the 'border ethereal' (which I think of as the 'cosmic crossroads' - once in that dimension, you CAN move in any planer direction), through a piece of The Shadowfell ('The Veil'), and then into the Fugue (afterlife). To our mortal eyes, we would see 'things' in each realm fade-in and fade-out, becoming less distinct as we 'moved forward' through the planer barriers. Stuff in the planes next to others would appear 'ghostly'.

Also, spirits that feel they have 'unfinished business' (or just afraid of the afterlife they've earned) will back-peddle out of the Fugue and into the Shadowfell, and from there they can affect the physical world (those would be all types of incorporeal undead).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2017 20:51:10
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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Mar 2017 :  14:47:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, since 'death' only came into the world after the Dawn war/Godwar/War of Light & Darkness. I don't see how there could have been ANY concept of an 'afterlife' or 'souls'. At that point, a being was just one thing - it was the 'end all, be all' of its existence. There was no 'before' or 'after' - in fact, there probably wasn't even time near the beginning for any of these things to have meaning.

So taking what Sleyvas just suggested, and some other stuff I've thrown around - before the World was Sundered, and the Prime Material Plane created from it, the concept of 'physicality' was even an 'iffy' thing. A being's shape was probably much more 'fluid' (the more powerful the being, the greater the leeway it would have in this regard). Thus, everything was a 'Spirit' (or Kami, as I mentioned earlier, which means the same thing). So there were just these 'spiritual beings' wandering around the Midgard*, and while most of the 'powers' were working on building the universe itself, some specific powers were working on races to populate it all (so that First World may have been like the Well World, in some parts). The concept of the trinity - Body, Mind, & Soul (Material, Astral, and Ethereal) - didn't exist, because things were fragmented the way they are now. Everything existed on a single plane. Now beings have to exist on multiple planes at once. 'Spirits' are manufactured from the planestuff itself (as it is with fiends, etc) - this is why after a time they can reform. They have no actual basis in 'the real' (or what we know of as 'reality' now). Souls are something else entirely - I equate 'spirit' with the mind in my model (the thing that gets stored in the astral after a person dies). However, there still would be no need for any type of afterlife - whether you use any of my theories (or any other fan theories), it doesn't matter - I am just not seeing there being any type of afterlife in the 'before time' period. And dating the Raven Queen to back then is just lunacy (she took Nerull's place, and Nerull has always been around in GH, so that makes no sense - she HAS TO BE a fairly recent edition to the cosmology.

NOW, if we want to say she was created in the confusion of the Spellplague (Great Cataclysm, 'Grand Conjunction', whatever, etc), and at that time she usurped Nerull's place, she may have used that - 'the reorder of the planes/reality itself' in order to make people believe she had always been around. A retcon, that makes the retcon itself in-game canon. So she would only be around a century or so, and anyone older than that, when asked, would get a far-away look in their eyes and be like, "The Raven Queen? I recall hearing stories about her as a child... I don't quite recollect the stories themselves, though... odd, that." In fact, since reality itself became unhinged (the Great wheel got re-shuffled, and pieces of various worlds got swapped back-and-forth, etc.) and some of that may have been Ravenloft style, with folks not even realizing stuff changed, we can use that to 'fudge' any of the inconsistencies we want. Things don't have to really have 'One Truth' - multiple truths can work when time itself gets affected (an event like the Spellplague could have created a nigh-infinite number of alternate probabilities). Another way of looking at it is how it worked in the movie Dark City, where every night the city changes, and the peoples lives are altered, and no-one ever realizes it. 'Truth' itself becomes an illusion, in that situation.

And I really dislike primordials having followers in the same way as deities - its just makes them different names for the same thing, at that point. Its boring. Its one of the very few things I was on board with with 4e right from the beginning - making the elemental lords primordials, and keeping them 'different' than normal gods. I think the only reason why they back-peddled from that is because they were forced to back-peddle away from just about everything 4e did, whether it was good or not (because at the end of the day, who gets to decide which was which?) I think elemental lords (and other, non-deity 'gods') should just have cults, plain and simple. give them normal priest stuff up to level three (keeping to the old SJ lore about levels 1-3 being self-generated, or provided by the universe itself, through 'faith'). then from level 4 on, they could have a specialized class of their own (like 3e's PrC's). give them more mage-like magic after that (like full access to one of the elemental schools). WE could just spin it that "people thought elemental powers were worshiped the same way", because they still got spells, and could even be more powerful than true priests (of a deity). Too bad 'Warlock' is spoken for - maybe bring back 'Witchdoctor'? Thats the class humanoids used for divine casters.




Look at the Priest thread I just started, where someone from DMs Guild has "beings" that have to be worshipped via you having an idol that's tied to them somehow. I would think this kind of magic to be perfect for primordials. I also don't have a problem with gods ALSO using this (maybe their incorporeal nature makes them more "flexible" in how they obtain worship).

I also would not have a problem with Primordials that have warlocks (or binders in the 3.5 era).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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