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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 07:27:45
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Hi all, new question.
A buddy of mine and I recently were discussing whether or not only good deities get access to angels. He thought only lawful good deities get angels, whereas I thought all deities get them (though that may be my old 4e brain talking).
What's the deal here? If only good deities get angels, who carries out the orders of neutral and evil gods? Any help here would be much appreciated, I've abruptly realised I know nothing about this area.
Cheers!
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 10:46:17
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For me LG uses Archons, NG uses Guardinals and CG uses Angels. LN uses Inevitables (or Modrons), other neutral outsiders are not so well documented but you can surely find some fitting the diety. LE uses Devils, NE uses Yugoloths, CE uses Demons.
I am using some of the Planescape lore regarding planes so it might not be 100% FR but those are generaly available outsiders for those alignments. I belive that gods can create their own servants and make pacts with more powerful beings that are similar to them ideologicaly.
Bane probably uses mighty warriors of Acheron, Silvanus would use some form of plant outsiders (planar treanant) and Seldarin would use Eladrin. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 13:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Hi all, new question.
A buddy of mine and I recently were discussing whether or not only good deities get access to angels. He thought only lawful good deities get angels, whereas I thought all deities get them (though that may be my old 4e brain talking).
What's the deal here? If only good deities get angels, who carries out the orders of neutral and evil gods? Any help here would be much appreciated, I've abruptly realised I know nothing about this area.
Cheers!
As far as I can see, there is not any fixed rule: deities seem to be served by a variety of outsiders or other creatures, depending on their nature and on where their realm is located. 2e Demihuman Deities includes the list of servitors used by the drow gods (but only the drow gods, for some reason, as far as I remember; and I don't recall the other books in the series to include a list of servitors for the various deities). Eilistraee (CG) is served by angel of lights, but also by eladrin and a few metallic dragons, some animals, and a few tieflings. Vhaeraun (CE), whose realm is in Ellaniath/Carceri (I guess it is there again in 5e) is served by fiends native of that place, demodands, shadow fiends and shadow dragons. Lolth has her specific demonic servitors. Corellon has solars, despite being CG.
I agree with dazzl that deities don't "get" servitors. I think that either the outsiders offer their service to deities similar to how mortals choose to follow them, or they gain something from that, or the deity makes a pact with them. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Feb 2017 13:51:23 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 02:09:31
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Can anyone explain in simple terms how this works in Planescape? I'm assuming that's the default extraplanar setting for FR.
My friend's argument was that since the "good" deities have access to angels, devas, solars, etc they should be much more powerful than the neutral and evil gods. Evil gods have to bargain with devils and demons to get things (I can't imagine every servitor of Bane being a devil, for instance), and neutrals just have less powerful servitors (eg. no access to something as powerful as a solar).
The argument didn't feel right to me - I assume there's a balance across the alignments/the Great Wheel that keeps things in check - but I didn't really have a good response, having assumed that all gods had access to angels (as they did in core 4e). Colour me confused. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 13 Feb 2017 02:10:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 08:19:29
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No, Planescape/Great Wheel is NOT the default for FR. It was in 1e/2e, and then in 3e it got its own cosmology (but still somehow connected to the Great Wheel). I'm not sure what we had in 4e (a mess?  ), and in 5e I 'think' it might be back to the Great Wheel... or not. I personally prefer it that way, but we might have the (3e) Tree again - anything after 3e is outside of my comfort zone lore-wise.
As for 'balance'. Good works together - all three flavors. 'Neutral' will usually side with good, but only because evil is getting the upper hand, and balance must be restored (but by the same token, I suppose if there was 'too much good' somehow, they have to help the bad guys). Evil doesn't get along with other evil, even if the same alignment (they might tolerate each other, thats about it). Now, while on the surface that might seem unfair to evil, the truth is evil vastly outnumbers good. Demons are literally 'without end' (infinite numbers). The devils are little more contained, but still far outnumber the good guys. So its a 'quality' vs 'quantity' thing, usually. If the evil types ever got their poop together they could handily beat the good guys, but they just can't work together long enough to accomplish anything meaningful.
And its the good guys who keep the Blood War going, if for no other reason than to keep most of the fiends busy with each other.
As someone pointed out above, Gods don't automatically get servitors, they have to earn them (impress them with their deeds, etc). This is normally fairly easy - to find some Celestials that want to fight the same battles as the deity, or for the same causes. For evil, its the same thing, but greed is also involved (everyone want to get a 'share' of the plunder, whatever it is). So all sorts of outsiders are 'bribed' into service, some with virtue, others with material gains. And only in (modern) western religion is everything so B&W. The universe is just one great big bureaucracy, and sometimes finding 'the right person for the job' means crossing axis lines (G/E and L/C). For example, in Kara-Tur (and any other worlds that use an Oriental pantheon), the 'Heavens' (Celestial Emperor) might choose to send some demons (Oni) to punish the wicked. In that culture, ALL outsiders (Kami) work for the Celestial Bureaucracy, even the evil ones. The only one who doesn't listen to anybody is Monkey.
So while it might seem weird to find fiends working for good gods, or celestials working with evil ones, it all depends upon the goals trying to be achieved (and is usually short-term). In fact, a fiend is far more likely to trust a deal it makes with a benign deity then it would an evil one, or a fellow fiend. And therein lies the crux of the problem for evil - unlimited numbers, but no solidarity. Working toward a common (good) goal is something only 'good' (and sometimes neutral) can pull-off with any success. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 08:21:16 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 09:04:23
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in 4e all aligned dieties had access to angels and what not.
so Bane could have a l3 Angel of fear and a le azata of darkness.
teh fiends only served the fiends higher up on the food chain. this does not mean that Cyric had a few succubi chained to his ultimate toilet.
in 5e. I have the 5e mm somewhere. but I'll have to get back to you unless someone gets back first |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 20:29:56
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Angels can be EVIL outsiders in 4e?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 20:32:55 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 21:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Angels can be EVIL outsiders in 4e?
Yeah. Here's a clip from the 4e Monster Manual blurb for reference:
quote:
Most deities have angel servants. Angels exist as expressions of the Astral Sea, sentient energy in humanoid form. They most often serve the gods, so some believe that the gods created them. In reality, angels are powerful astral beings who appeared during the first moments of the creation of the Astral Sea. Different types of angels have different callings; they are literally manifestations of celestial vocations. Perhaps it was the needs of the gods that caused the astral stuff to spew them forth, but it was not a conscious act of creation. During the great war between the gods and the primordials, angels offered themselves as warriors to the gods that best encompassed their callings, and today they continue to act as mercenary forces for anyone willing to meet their price—be it wealth, or power, or a cause worthy of their attention.
Angels of Vecna and such forth are referenced throughout the different books. I actually quite liked that all gods have access to them, and it worked well for the Gods vs Primordials angle of the time. It made its way into the 4e FR Campaign Setting too:
quote:
Angels: Most deities have angel servants. These semiautonomous beings are created by deities, have free will, and can “fall from grace.”
Dark angels serving Bane are also referenced in that book. Angels can become "fallen" not by committing evil acts, but by betraying the deity they serve.
I know a lot of 4e has been explained away at this time, but I'm still not sure in which direction to go with this. I like the "all deities can get these manifestations of their celestial vocations to serve them" thing, but I also want to remain true to current FR canon. Which admittedly is a crap shoot in this regard, with little info to go on yet. But, the 5e Monster Manual has angels as Lawful Good again, doing away with the "any alignment" of 4e, so my guess is they're going back to the old school interpretation.
Edit: I just did a search in my Faiths and Avatars PDF, as well as the 3e FRCS and the GHotR, and believe it or not none of those books even mention the word "angel". Have they ever been actually represented in the lore outside of what was said in 4e? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 13 Feb 2017 21:52:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 02:52:24
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The last I checked, the Dark Angels served the Emperor, not Bane.
On a note related to my own tangent, I've long been fiddling with a 40k Space Marine that gets dropped into the Realms, and who comes to the conclusion that the Emperor is either a servant of or an aspect of Torm -- and thus becomes a priest of Torm. It's one of those goofy concepts that holds way more appeal to me than it likely should. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 05:05:49
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I like that particular thought, Wooly. I've been reading on 40k quite a bit given their recent news.
As to the wheel/not wheel, I've always used the Wheel with my Realms, but that's a personal preference. I'm very happy that way.
As to Angels of all alignments: That doesn't work in my mind so well. Fallen Angels, yep. But not "true" angels for any alignment. That just seems goofy to me. You can have a battle against a good outsider just as well as an evil one, especially if your goals are at odds with one another. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 05:13:44
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| Here's a question... If 5E allows for angels of all alignments, then does it similarly allow for pit fiends, balors, and modrons of all alignments? |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 06:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a question... If 5E allows for angels of all alignments, then does it similarly allow for pit fiends, balors, and modrons of all alignments?
It was a 4e concept, not a 5e one - 5e angels are back to lawful good (at least in the 5e monster manual, who knows about setting-specific angels).
But to answer your question, no it didn't. The change was specific to angels. From memory, devas, solars, balors, modrons etc all retained their original alignments, but angels morphed into divine warriors of every god (that could persuade them to join) rather than just good gods. I quite liked it - I wasn't a fan of evil deities mainly being served by devils, demons, and yugoloths. But I'm not a planar expert by any means, and YMMV.
Edit: Was "what an angel is" dealt with at any point in FR-specific lore prior to 4e?
Edit 2: It may interest people to know that on word-searching my many pdfs (covering many but not all of the lorebooks), I discovered the following:
1. The only reference to "angels" in FR sources from 1e-3e are:
1a. to a planetar in Champions of Valor that was referred to as an angel
1b. to "angel servitors of good deities" in the Player's Guide to Faerun (which doesn't exclude angel servitors of evil deities), showing that they dwell in Arvandor, Brightwater, Dwarfhome, Dweomerheart, the Gates of the Moon, Golden Hills, Green Fields, Heliopolis, House of Knowledge, & the House of the Triad. The source doesn't specify if these are planetars or generic angels or what.
2. The 4e FRCG is the only source that seems to describe "angels" (as mentioned in above posts).
3. Angelika Lokotz did the typography for a LOT of products. Like, practically all of them.
My takeaway from this is that it's possible that FR's cosmology still has planetars, solars, and so forth as the good-guy "angels", but it's still possible that all the deities always had the "any-alignment" angels of 4e.
Edit 3:I'll actually note that in 5e's Monster Manual, under "angel" it only lists deva, planetar, and solar (all lawful good). There is no mention of the generic "angel" of 4e, but that doesn't mean they don't exist... and definition problems could also be circumvented by calling these "astral essence" creatures something other than angels... in fact this might be preferable. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Feb 2017 08:22:59 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 08:17:39
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Angels of all alignments is probably a bit too close to some Christian and the main Islamic angels. Angels as divine servants made to do Gods will, but with absolute understanding; in some way such angels would lack free will as we know it, made to do the divine will. But perhaps this solved the oddity of D&D's stereotypical demon servants? Magic the Gathering lacked cards with "demon" on them for many years, simply due to critic of D&D's demons from religious ppl.
I see good parts with either solution. Baatezu and Tanar'ri works nicely as "generic" bad guys as Archons and Angels as good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 10:13:58
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| I always preferred the terms baatezu and tanar'ri, myself. They sound more exotic, lack the religious overtones, and (for me at least) are easier to keep straight than demon and devil were. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 13:04:32
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| Along these lines somewhat, the "tasked genies" of Zakhara would kind of fit the role you may be looking for where "both good and evil deities can have an angel of death". In terms of look and feel (and even concept since the genies are elemental) different, but the idea is there. In fact, IF some tasked genies were turned into "angels" somehow, it might be an interesting concept.... similar to how some believe efreeti and devils have some link. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 13:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Along these lines somewhat, the "tasked genies" of Zakhara would kind of fit the role you may be looking for where "both good and evil deities can have an angel of death". In terms of look and feel (and even concept since the genies are elemental) different, but the idea is there. In fact, IF some tasked genies were turned into "angels" somehow, it might be an interesting concept.... similar to how some believe efreeti and devils have some link.
In fact, now that I think about it, this would be the kind of thing that might have actually kicked off the Dawn Titan war.... stealing Primordial servants and turning them into angels. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 15:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The last I checked, the Dark Angels served the Emperor, not Bane.
On a note related to my own tangent, I've long been fiddling with a 40k Space Marine that gets dropped into the Realms, and who comes to the conclusion that the Emperor is either a servant of or an aspect of Torm -- and thus becomes a priest of Torm. It's one of those goofy concepts that holds way more appeal to me than it likely should.
This is a great idea Wooly. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 16:06:53
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First off, to address Wooly's idea - I'd have him fall through a wormhole (Gate) and his existing power armor gets 'translated' by the Weave into some else; he becomes fused with it - a half-warforged. He'd probably also hate elves (Eldar) on sight, I would imagine.
Secondly, I'm glad they 'fixed' angels in 5e. YES, you can have angels working for bad guys, but those ARE 'Fallen Angles'. On the one hand 4e established that devils (at least some, including the big Kahuna himself, Asmodeus) are created by an angel falling. I understand what they were trying to do there, but 4e took too many liberties with 'repurposing' already well established terminology (someone had some sort of agenda there, but I don't want to get onto that). But on the other hand, they went ahead and created other lore saying devils were created from the 'planestuff' itself... so which is it?
I tend to just use a term from Planescape - Proxy, or a term from the Stormbringer game - Agent, for all these types of deififc 'servants'. Perhaps the best umbrella term to use is one from OA/K-T - Kami, which can be anything from a minor nature spirit to a greater god (but tend to be something in-between, like a celestial). I guess they figured-out the problem with 'Outsider' - it also applied to the run-of-the-mill denizens of the Great Wheel. So we could just use 'Proxy' (agent of a deity) for what 4e was trying to do with 'angel'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2017 16:12:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 16:13:03
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Since a couple of folks like my idea of the Space Marine cleric of Torm...
My main goal was the Marine himself, not all of his nifty toys. So while he does have a powersword and bolter, the former no longer works and the latter has only a few rounds left. He did use both on his initial arrival to the Realms, but the powersword later malfunctioned. Since it's useless and the bolter can only be used a few more times, he's laid both aside.
He also paid out a small fortune to have his armor modified. It looks the same, but is no longer power armor -- all that stuff stopped working and was removed. It's now a suit of plate armor with a lot of enchantments on it.
So he's got the look and physique of a Space Marine, but uses Realms-standard(ish) equipment.
As for how he got to the Realms, he was part of a squad that got trapped on a space hulk when it unexpectedly popped into the Warp. One warpstorm later, the hulk was spit out near the sun in Realmspace. He was the last survivor of the squad, at that point. He was luckily rescued by a passing spelljammer, who took him to Toril and got him acquainted with the locals. A priest of Torm was among those rescuers, and after hearing about the Emperor, he was the one who suggested the Emperor could be an aspect of Torm.
Though I'm a huge Space Wolf fan, this Space Marine would be from some non-canon Chapter, likely one that descended from the Ultramarines. It's just easier that way.
That's most of what I've got. Not too much specifics... Though somewhere I do also have a list of Space Marine enhancements and a rough D&D equivalency for them. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 22:17:02
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At the end of the day it seems like FR's cosmology hasn't actually as been well detailed as I thought. Without a clear "Manual of the FR Planes" type setup, I guess it's up to every individual DM?
As per my original question as to the debate, I could:
1. Say all deities have angels as per the latest FR-specific info (4e FRCG), and there's no imbalance between alignments
2. Say the good deities get all the angels, but the devils and demons outnumber them, so overall it equals out. Neutrals get furrys and cutesy machine toys.
I'm more than happy to go with option 2 if people think that's more likely to be the FR default: is there a good resource out there for reading about that kind of cosmology? I was originally thinking Planescape, but maybe the 3e Manual of the Planes or something? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2017 : 22:29:45
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
At the end of the day it seems like FR's cosmology hasn't actually as been well detailed as I thought.
It's not as much that it hasn't been detailed... The issue is that the one time it was very detailed, it was chucked out the window for no readily apparent reason. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 00:35:33
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Planescape WAS the default setting - it was the default setting of ALL the D&D settings back in 1e/2e (Mystara/OD&D is a weird one - I believe it did have canon connections to Ravenloft and Spelljammer, but maybe nor directly to PS). Even 'oddballs' like DL/Krynn and DS/Athas were connected, just not in the same way (and Athas was a 'closed' sphere, whatever that means). But The Great Wheel cosmology was the arch-type cosmology, even if a world had its own, smaller one. Then 3e came along and they threw all that out the window and gave us The Great Tree in 3e.
Then 4e came along and chopped down the tree, nuked planescape (and just about everything 'multispheric'), decided to create an entire new set of cosmological rules, which weren't really rules at all... more like suggestions... written by a Kindergarten class... on crack... *ahem*
ANYWAY... so we went from an insanely detailed, well-ordered (and written), extremely rich planer setting to 'The Tree', which wasn't 1/100th as rich, but managed to simplify things (mostly... we still had that 'Wall of the Faithless' we love to discuss about once a year), and then we went to the Maelstrom Mess thingy (which did have some good points - the Elemental planes were actually useful for once), and now I'm not sure what we have.
In 5e, the Geography went back to what it was in 1e/2e, and ALL the gods are back (even ones that died during the ToT, AFAIK) as well, and the political situation (aside from the whole 'factions thing') seems to be fairly close to what it was in earlier editions, so my assumption here is that Planescape/Great Wheel IS the default cosmology once again, since apparently everything has 'snapped back' to a pre-Spellplague (and possibly pre-ToT) world.
They're just not saying that, because its better (business-wise) to just leave it open and be whatever people want it to be 'in their games'.
Personally, I'd bring back the Wheel (it was just so well done - a masterpiece of balance built-upon over the years by true masters of the RPG world-building craft), but leave the Maelstrom for the Elemental planes (maybe just have some HUGE chunks of specific elements arranged in a similar fashion to how it used to be in 1e), but with random bits of other mixed-in, getting more and more 'mixed' as one traveled away from the center point of the old (elemental) planer center. That sounded confusing...
Basically, take the planer setup we had with the Wheel, but in place of the elemental planes being 'solid' pieces of the element, have it more like 'motes' floating in a cosmic soup, with more of one type being clustered near the old planes center-point, so you still get that 'maelstrom' feel we had in 4e, but it would have some of the general layout of 1e/2e. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2017 00:57:27 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 00:50:06
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| We have to thank the Spellplague for destroying the Tree, forcing AO to move his lazy ass and reinstate the Great Wheel in the Realms (?) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 01:27:36
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The 5e Player's Handbook represents a version of the "Great Wheel" cosmology, but doesn't specifically say "this is for FR". The 5e DMG takes a similar approach, but lists things such as the World Tree as alternatives. Interestingly, it calls the World Tree "one vision of the planes where the deities of the Forgotten Realms reside", making it easier for DMs to move away from the World Tree if they wish.
I'm not sure how well the 5e PHB pictorial lines up with the Planescape interpretation, but I've started reading the Planescape Campaign Setting to get a better idea, as it seems that that's the preferred vision for the FR cosmology. There's another thread on here about ways of getting them to line up which I'll use for inspiration as necessary.
For those interested in the 5e core depiction, it has the Prime Material plane (with all the non-planar D&D worlds assumedly in crystal spheres) at the centre of everything, presumably with phlogiston between the crystal spheres. The Material Plane has "echoes", which are the Feywild and the Shadowfell. The Inner Planes surround the Material Plane (metaphysically if not physically), and are the most condensed closest to it as mixtures of the planes of Air, Fire, Earth, and Water. Then these condense into the purest form of these energies as you move away from the Material (as the Elemental Planes), before dissolving into each other as clashing energies that become the Elemental Chaos at the farthest part of these Inner Planes. The Ethereal plane overlies the Material and the Inner Planes.
Then the Outer Planes are beyond that, described as spiritual realms than hone into border areas that can be visited and experienced by mortals, although those border realms can be changed by the ruling deities as they will. It is said that the language used to describe these planes "must be highly metaphorical", and that the actual homes of the deities are past these border regions in the spiritual region beyond. All these realms exist within the Astral Plane, and are accessed through "colour pools" within that plane (contrary to them being physical worlds within it as in 4e). Surrounding the outer planes are the realms of positive and negative energy.
Sigil and the Outlands are described as the place between the Outer Planes, with 16 gate towns to the 16 main outer planes.
To me this feels like the Great Wheel, just described slightly differently, but I'd be interested in others' thoughts. If it's compatible with Planescape, I might just make Planescape my default FR cosmology (with a little 5e twist). For the sake of that original argument, it sounds like that would probably mean ignoring the 4e interpretation of angels - unless they can fit into the Planescape cosmology (renaming them to avoid confusion) without upsetting anything.
I still don't get how it all works, but I'm hoping reading the Planescape Campaign Setting will help. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 15 Feb 2017 01:41:33 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 04:26:44
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| regarding the planar layouts... the way I view it is that no one KNOWS the true layout (outside of the greatest of gods... and even that maybe not). They're all trying to use their own interpretation to fit to what they know. Its somewhat like if you ask a network engineer to explain subnetting, you'll get a difference answer from nearly every one... yet they all understand the core concept. The big difference here is that these sages don't know about everything. For instance, some might not know about wildspace and the phlogiston. Others may not know about certain outer planes. Some may assume that Faerie and the Feywild are separate, while others think they're the same. Some may think that the elemental plane of fire and the elemental chaos are just different portions of one plane, whereas others may think they're entirely separate. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 08:07:10
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Thats my take as well - no one version is correct, because mortal (and even non-mortal) minds can't comprehend 11-dimensional space, so its all interpreted into something our brains can understand. Thus, the best we can hope for is "sort of the truth".
Plus, I think mortal (and even non-mortal) preconceived ideas about how things are supposed to work - what religion calls 'dogma' - influences what is perceived, and therefore each individual is experiencing their own, slightly different version of reality (we each have our own 'private' reality). Now, people with the same beliefs, or with the same pantheon, or even the same world might have very similar notions, and thus can travel together without any problems - they all have the same basic structure in mind. Plus, when in groups, a 'common reality' can form, with all the members contributing what they think they are experiencing (so almost like the most amazingly realistic illusion you can imagine, so much so you have almost no chance of 'disbelieving' it). But when people with wildly different beliefs try to travel with each (like folk from different worlds), some may find barriers in-place for them, that their new-found friends can just pass right through (because they don't exist for those people), while others might be able to use a conduit/transitive plane/Gate to go from one place to another, that doesn't exist for other people they are traveling with. In this way, its very much like how the canon concept of 'keys' work for the planer gates - sometimes the right key is just having the correct set of beliefs.
So basically, all versions of a cosmology can co-exist, because none of it is really real, at least not in the physical sense we picture it as. Belief is a VERY powerful thing - it can even cause gods to fade from existence.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Surrounding the outer planes are the realms of positive and negative energy.
So the Negative and Positive planes are back in 5e? They kinda-sorta merged the negative with shadow in 3e and I think 4e (it all having to do with undead, which is the only level on which that makes sense).
I may have to re-think my old cosmological model (based loosely on the Great Wheel). Break those 'solid' circles of elements into thousands of smaller motes floating in the Maelstrom Sea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2017 16:46:30 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 23:43:52
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Jumping in late, but here are my two cents (sorry if it's been said).
"Servitor" is the umbrella term for angels, archons, and other beings who serve the deities, whether it's retrieving souls from the Fugue Plane, delivering messages, or whatever else. I've seen the term "angel" used to describe servitors of both CG and LG deities, but there are "dark" angels, too. I have seen servitor used often.
The Empyrean Odyssey trilogy has angels/archons, and I know Demihuman Deities mentions a few.
Some souls "ascend" to being archons or some other celestial being, and others likely come from the various planes, after the deity has "earned" them. Or they could already be native to the realm the deity comes to rule.
I missed out on the earliest editions, and the lore all kind of blurs together for me with the earlier editions. I find the older editions (anything before 4e) much richer in lore, but I don't always know which is 2e and which is 3 or 3.5. I use the sourcebooks for lore reasons, and don't always pay attention to editions.
According to the FR wiki page, angels hailed from various celestial planes in the Astral Sea. They served the deities in the Dawn War, though not all of them remained in service. Angels are usually, but not always, good, and many of them have remained in service to the god they aided in the Dawn War.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Feb 2017 00:15:54 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 00:50:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Negative and Positive planes are back in 3e? They kinda-sorta merged the negative with shadow in 3e and I think 4e (it all having to do with undead, which is the only level on which that makes sense).
I may have to re-think my old cosmological model (based loosely on the Great Wheel). Break those 'solid' circles of elements into thousands of smaller motes floating in the Maelstrom Sea.
This is from the 5e Player's Handbook:
quote:
Like a dome above the other planes, the Positive Plane is the source of radiant energy and the raw life force that suffuses all living beings, from the puny to the sublime. Its dark reflection is the Negative Plane, the source of necrotic energy that destroys the living and animates the undead.
There's a pic in the book (that I can't seem to find on the net) that shows those plans as a sphere enclosing everything else.
Corellon's Devout, that quote from the FR wiki is actually the 4e "any alignment" interpretation - you can tell by the fact they're talking about the Dawn War. 4e makes it even more complex by making archons native to the Elemental Chaos - unnecessarily complex.
I've now read most of the Planescape Campaign Setting, and I still don't really seem to grok the whole servitors thing. There's proxies, but they seem to be regular folks and planars rather than angels. The good planar powers seem to be able to recruit different type of aasimon (Planescape's word for angels?), but they don't auto-get them. The good powers may also get powerful beings like archons (LG), eladrin (CG), and guardinals (NG) as their servitors.
Bane then might use devils, Shar might use yugoloths, and Beshaba might use demons. Lawful neutral powers like Helm might use inevitables or modrons.
As for the powers of Limbo (CN), there don't seem to be too many major servitors, but that's not necessarily a problem, as I think the only power there is Fenmarel since Tempus moved shop. Fenmarel also has access to Arvandor, so he's probably ok for eladrin.
Most of the True Neutral powers end up in the Outlands (eg. Silvanus, Dumathoin) - maybe their most powerful servitors might be Rilmani?
I guess, from what Markustay said earlier, it seems like Team Good gets more powerful toys, but Team Evil gets more of them. Team Neutral do still seem to get the short end of the stick in this regard (no super-powered aasimon, no endless supply of demons). I still don't really get it, but hopefully that will come with more reading. Unless someone can supply some clarification for my searching mind... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 01:16:15
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Thanks for the clarification. I'm familiar with 4e, but not necessarily when something is a new concept in 4e, except for the obvious, like the Spellplague (and I am not very familiar with the Planescape setting).
The gods and their realms are one of my favorite aspects of the Realms, but I never really thought about who gets angels and who doesn't. Now you have me curious, too. I don't know how helpful this is, but I found this in Book of Exalted Deeds. I realize it is D&D, and not FR, so some things may not apply, but I found it interesting, nonetheless. I think you're right about Fenmarel. Since he has access to Arvandor, even if he spends most of his time in Limbo, he would also have access to Arvandor's servitors (like eladrin).
"The Upper Planes are the home of all that is good, the Outer Planes on which righteousness and justice flourish. On these planes, the lawful good archons, neutral good guardinals, chaotic good eladrins, and angels (devas, planetars, and solars) make their homes...In the D&D cosmology, the Upper Planes include Arcadia, Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium, the Beastlands, Arborea, and Ysgard...How celestials define, understand, and embody the concept of good varies from one to the next. While and archon's understanding is shaped by her adherence to the principles of law, an eladrin's is equally shaped by his chaotic viewpoint. The guardinals may claim to represent pure good untainted by concerns of law and chaos, but many would argue that their very commitment to neutrality undermines their goodness." (pg 123-4).
Again, not sure if that is helpful, especially because it isn't FR, but I wanted to share. As for Team Neutral, I think it would depend on the deity. Most, if not all deities get "servants" who will defend their realm, fetch souls, deliver messages, etc., which is why I prefer the term servitor (though I like angels) since there are so many varieties of celestials. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Angels & divine servitors of FR gods
