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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 05:36:30
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So, Khelben didn't pass on to Arvandor...
In the latest Dragon Talk podcast, new lore not revealed elsewhere (as far as I'm aware) was discussed. What made me go "Whaaaaaaaa?!! was that Khelben, although assumed to be dead and gone, has put his put his soul into the Blackstaff - and also made it so the soul of every subsequent wielder of the Blackstaff is sucked into it too.
Matt Sernett:
"In theory, Khelben's soul went on to some fantastic afterlife... in reality, he stuck around, still there in the Blackstaff, talking with Vajra..."
Laeral is said to be aware of this.
Khelben is also said to be the dominant force amongst the other souls in the Blackstaff, controlling what knowledge they can share with Vajra (and thus is even able to influence Vajra's interactions with Samark, her former lover & mentor).
His true form that we got a glimpse of in one novel (City of Splendors?) is also discussed, and the fact that spending a century "in a staff" has changed his psyche. And it isn't really described as a positive change...
It is said to be likely that we will "see Khelben again in some form in the future".
I re-skimmed Blackstaff's ending to see if it could line up, and there Khelben does talk to Tsarra about "Arvandor's call", and his soul's need to rest. However, it doesn't describe what actually happens. It's entirely possible something more happened afterwards Tsarra wasn't aware of (eg. Mystra making a new command of Khelben after his death, much as when she made him Chosen), or he deceived her for reasons unknown to anyone but him.
I also thought, possibly incorrectly, that in Blackstaff Tower, Vajra talks to only created sentiences of the former Blackstaffs - but perhaps in truth they are their very souls... or, the tower sentiences are separate to the Blackstaff's held souls.
His influence over Vajra also gives new significance to the "new Moonstars" of Blackstaff Tower.
Anyway! Interesting.
Podcast Link
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Jan 2017 06:18:58
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 06:01:07
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Looking back at Death Masks, here's a couple of points of interest:
quote:
(from Vajra's perspective)
...despite the unyielding authority of Khelben that lingered in the staff as if he were still alive...
quote:
(from Laeral's perspective)
Then she reached out, slowly but firmly, and took hold of the proffered head of the staff.
Beloved. We touch again, at last.
That mind-voice thundering into her out of the staff made her weak in the knees and drove her to the edge of tears in the briefest of instants. It was Khelben, her Khelben, as strong and confident as ever. And yet it was not. It was a cold, dead echo, a vestige of Khelben enshrined in what was left of the staff. A remnant in a remnant. Yet strong enough to control Vajra, and trying now to seduce Laeral, playing on her yearning for him, for what they’d had together … playing to gain her vitality, her living energy … “He … he is gone, and so is what we shared,” she whispered aloud, voice quavering on the husky edge of grief, as Elminster stepped around Vajra and came up to stand with Laeral and put a comforting hand on her shoulder. “Why?” she asked him, almost pleading. “Why so much hunger?”
"The echo of Khelben that remains in that stick yearns for life,” El told her gravely, “and thine is strong. It needs to feed on ye, as it has on this poor innocent here—”
This will require more time and thought from me, with the addendum that an off the cuff podcast may not be the whole truth... but the door on Khelben's "death" seems to be more open than I thought.
Edit: Perhaps Laeral only knows of the "echo", not realising it is the true Khelben - albeit much changed - near certainly for the worse. Or perhaps things have changed since Death Masks. Or perhaps the use of the word "soul" was used too liberally in the podcast, and is indeed only echoes of the souls in the Blackstaff... time will tell I guess. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Jan 2017 06:16:15 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 07:17:56
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More thoughts...
Perhaps this has something to do with the kiira n'vaelhar that bound Tsarra and Khelben's spirits in Blackstaff. It was mentioned as also having gone on to bind to Kyriani and Krehlan in Blackstaff Tower. According to the latter source Krehlan then, with the help of the Grand Mages of Rhymanthiin, dissipated the kiira n'vaelhar and bonded its magic to Blackstaff Tower and its sister N'Vaerymanth in Rhymanthiin. Krehlan also says:
quote:
"When someone takes on the mantle of the Blackstaff or its heir, a template of their spirit, their intellect, their knowledge, becomes part of the Blackstaff and its place of power."
So to sum up the prior lore, we already knew the Blackstaff's spirit was around and influencing things, but we assumed it to be a spirit template. This is what Krehlan tells Renaer in Blackstaff Tower. But, this may not be the whole story. Krehlan says that the spirit templates are created when someone becomes Blackstaff. He doesn't say what happens after a Blackstaff dies, and it's possible that the spirit templates lay down the means to "suck in the soul" of the Blackstaffs after they die.
As an alternative, it's possible that Krehlan's treatise on kiira and spirit templates, as read by Renaer, was either wrong, or, as Khelben has done before, deliberately false to mislead the reader. It also seems that kiira, at least in most of the lore, do only create spirit templates rather than hold spirits or souls. BUT, this specific kiira was also:
- a kiira n'vaelahr, meaning it could work quite differently (described to some extent in the Player's Guide to Faerun)
- being modified by Khelben, and was "incomplete" before being bound with Tsarra (as described by Khelben in Blackstaff
So it's possible that Khelben modified the kiira to not hold spirit templates, but the actual souls of himself and future Blackstaffs. Why he would do that - who knows. Prophecy, the gods, his own worldly interests... it wouldn't be hard to think of a reason, either last-minute or centuries-in-the-planning, that Khelben decided to live on in the kiira, and later the Blackstaff. Or, maybe I'm way off track, and in the end it will be only a template...
But my guess is Khelben has yet another grand prophecy to fulfill some time in the future, or he found himself unwilling to move on at the last moment. After all, "this world needs its Blackstaff" in his words, and it would be hard to give it up entirely. This doesn't all come together yet, but I hope it will in time when the storyline advances. I still have the feeling things are building towards this supposed FR movie that was supposed to be happening and set in Waterdeep...
Edit: I could still be totally off base here, and the podcast meant spirit templates when it was talking about souls. But it certainly didn't sound like it. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Jan 2017 07:21:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 08:38:08
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Well, it is my belief (both RW and D&D) that a person has three parts - Body, Mind, and Soul. This is supported by the lore - especially by the greater Planescape lore.
So when you die, your physical form here on the prime material is no longer functional. There are still two perfectly fine (for the most part) pieces of you left, that travel to other planes - your mind, and your soul. The latter goes onto whatever afterlife is appropriate for you, but the former gets shunted into the astral, for 'storage' (The astral apparently serves as some sort of 'cosmic filing cabinet' that keeps a copy of everyone's lives stored-away).
So what if Khelben's soul moved on to Arvandor (as it said in the Blackstaff novel), but he was able to put his mind into the staff. That would explain why it appears so "cold & distant". It could even just be a copy of his mind (I think something like that happens RW with hauntings - an 'echo' gets left behind). Khelben being part-elven, it seems fairly similar to what happens with Tel'Kiira (Elven Lore Gems). Memories get locked into the crystal's matrix, almost forming an 'AI' of sorts. It could be something like that.
Or, for a Harry Potter reference, how the paintings of people can still act like the people... even though they are NOT the people. Souls don't have to be involved at all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2017 16:33:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 13:04:25
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| I honestly suspected as much when I read Laeral's reaction to wielding the Blackstaff in Death Masks. Yeah, I get that even the remembrance of a loved one can get you all emotional, but that reaction was really strong, and I think that Laeral wouldn't have had much trouble against just a remnant of Khelben's soul. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 13:16:51
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| Thanks for this info, tho. Between Halaster being apparently on his way back, Laeral being around again, Mirt being around in Waterdeep again, the Xanathar plotting again, the Promenade being retaken, it looks like we're getting old Waterdeep back. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 14:54:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Matt Sernett:
"In theory, Khelben's soul went on to some fantastic afterlife... in reality, he stuck around, still there in the Blackstaff, talking with Vajra..."
*sigh* Another blatant retcon... Steven Schend himself, here on these pages, said it was not Khelben's soul that was hanging out in Blackstaff Tower.
Khelben is my fave of the Chosen, but if they're going to bring him back, I'd prefer it be done in some way that wasn't a retcon... Have someone call him back, like they did with Fflar, or have Mystra send him back (or allow his return)... Hell, even go the Iraludoon route.
There are way too many options for his return to justify a retcon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 15:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Matt Sernett:
"In theory, Khelben's soul went on to some fantastic afterlife... in reality, he stuck around, still there in the Blackstaff, talking with Vajra..."
*sigh* Another blatant retcon... Steven Schend himself, here on these pages, said it was not Khelben's soul that was hanging out in Blackstaff Tower.
Khelben is my fave of the Chosen, but if they're going to bring him back, I'd prefer it be done in some way that wasn't a retcon... Have someone call him back, like they did with Fflar, or have Mystra send him back (or allow his return)... Hell, even go the Iraludoon route.
There are way too many options for his return to justify a retcon.
Yeah, plus I made MY main character become a magic item, plus Lorey the sai. They need to do something else with him    |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 16:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Matt Sernett:
"In theory, Khelben's soul went on to some fantastic afterlife... in reality, he stuck around, still there in the Blackstaff, talking with Vajra..."
*sigh* Another blatant retcon... Steven Schend himself, here on these pages, said it was not Khelben's soul that was hanging out in Blackstaff Tower.
Khelben is my fave of the Chosen, but if they're going to bring him back, I'd prefer it be done in some way that wasn't a retcon... Have someone call him back, like they did with Fflar, or have Mystra send him back (or allow his return)... Hell, even go the Iraludoon route.
There are way too many options for his return to justify a retcon.
At this point, I don't care anymore. They're breaking so much of it, so whatever... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 16:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Edit: I could still be totally off base here, and the podcast meant spirit templates when it was talking about souls. But it certainly didn't sound like it.
They even said that Khelben isn't in a good afterlife and that he stuck around instead. That could never refer to a spirit template. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 16:38:03
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Well, here's the thing...
I'm not agreeing with what they did, but Khelben "not lovin' his afterlife" makes a LOT of sense.
He went to Arvandor... where all the SNOOTY ELVES go. He basically went to a place where everyone will treat him like a PoS. Its small wonder he wanted to get out of that hell-hole.
It really is a case of, "Be careful of what you wish for". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 16:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, here's the thing...
I'm not agreeing with what they did, but Khelben "not lovin' his afterlife" makes a LOT of sense.
He went to Arvandor... where all the SNOOTY ELVES go. He basically went to a place where everyone will treat him like a PoS. Its small wonder he wanted to get out of that hell-hole.
It really is a case of, "Be careful of what you wish for".
Lol. Said like that, Arvandor doens't seem like a pleasant place at all for anyone who doesn't fit the idea of what an elf considers worthy of their acceptance. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jan 2017 16:41:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2017 : 20:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, here's the thing...
I'm not agreeing with what they did, but Khelben "not lovin' his afterlife" makes a LOT of sense.
He went to Arvandor... where all the SNOOTY ELVES go. He basically went to a place where everyone will treat him like a PoS. Its small wonder he wanted to get out of that hell-hole.
It really is a case of, "Be careful of what you wish for".
I don't have an issue with that... My issue is with their statement that he was never in the afterlife. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 00:04:40
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Wooly, I don't think its as much a case of a 'retcon', as it is the people talking about the Realms not actually knowing what they're talking about.
In other words, whenever I listen to a podcast (or anything else) of these 'official types', the whole things comes off to me like someone who read the 'Cliffs Notes' on the Realms and are just pretending to know the answers to stuff. I doubt any of them ever read any FR novels -they just read the synopsis and base everything off that. Or maybe more like little kids that heard a secret, but you're hearing it from the fourth or fifth kid who repeated it, so they're getting a bunch of it wrong.
At least, thats the impression I get. I wouldn't apply a whole lot of importance into anything they 'announce'.
As for bringing Khelben back {major SIGH} - they've brought just about everyone back. They jumped that shark (smilodon) about 50 characters ago. The 5th edition tagline should read: "Come play in the Forgotten Realms, where the only character that doesn't matter is YOURS!"
Seriously, if only the players can die, then who exactly is the NPC in that scenario? Hmmmmm? Don't bother picking out armor, folks - just grab a red shirt as you walk out the door... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2017 00:07:16 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2017 : 00:38:26
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I'm reserving judgment until we actually see this in a published product - off the cuff podcasts are hardly set in stone. If we're lucky, the designers might even see this thread & take some ideas from it! Maybe...
In any case it doesn't feel like this is going to be a hard reset on Khelben - the whole "his psyche has changed after spending a century in the staff" thing, plus an emphasis on his (and Laeral's) more "pragmatic" approach to morality, plus the alienness of his true form, plus him restricting Vajra's access to Samark... he could be being set up as antagonist at this point.
I've been going through Steven Schend's old posts looking for direct contradictions to this, and while this definitely isn't what he intended (it was definitely just supposed to be a spirit template), it doesn't seem like he ever got that down, untouchably , in canon. Khelben is never, not even in Blackstaff, actually described as going to Arvandor. The intent is there, BUT... even if he might not love this approach, Ser Schend was always quick with the disclaimer that his posts here were unofficial and not to be considered canon.
I agree it all feels a bit weird right now, but I think we'll just have to wait and see. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 03:00:43
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| Lol and we actually wait for WotC for Realmslore. WotC can stick with the Sword Coast and leave the rest alone for all I care. Let the experts produce the Lore. Glad that I have the OGB... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 14:54:54
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If they're going to literally undo everything I don't see such an issue with a reboot to OGB.
Of course the one character I want to come back the most (the Simbul) is the one they haven't had come back yet, despite it being very easy to do without a retcon... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 15:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Of course the one character I want to come back the most (the Simbul) is the one they haven't had come back yet, despite it being very easy to do without a retcon...
I want all the 7 back. I'd even settle for the 2 of them who are still missing--Alassra and Qilué--to be like Syluné and Dove (Weave ghosts who can talk to their sisters through some kind of magic pebble that can carry their spirits). I just want them back. Although Qiluè should probably be dancing with Eilistraee, to be fair. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 15:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
If they're going to literally undo everything I don't see such an issue with a reboot to OGB.
This... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 15:33:51
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| They won't. If you ask me, that's because it would invalidate most of the Drizzt novels. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 17:14:14
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Thats why I say a 'soft' reboot, as opposed to a 'hard' reboot. Go back to the OGB - maybe even give us a 'New Grey Box' - but everything in the novels will still have happened UNLESS overwritten.
I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath-water, but hindsight's a great thing, and it would be nice to create a Realms that none of those mistakes crept into over the years.
Now a semi-hard reboot (I think I just created a new term LOL) would be where we went a wee bit further, and actually re-did those regions that were done wrong - the ones that were modeled TOO closely on RW. Get the RW cultures and deities OUT of FR (but we can have strikingly similar ones - like what they did in Golarion). I'd love to see Ed's version of Mulhorand and Unther. Maztica would be another obvious choice for an overhaul.
Calimshan is tricky - its redundant with lots of other areas, and the existance of Zakhara makes those other areas unnecessary as well. However, it was created by Steven Schend, and it was done very well, so perhaps just some very mild retconning where we add the history of Zakhara into the whole thing.
As for not wanting to 'undo' a RAS novel, thats no big deal... just ask Chewbacca. All joking aside, his series all fall into that category wherein they can remain 'pristine'. He never wrote an RSE - his stuff was all self-contained. His characters did the kinds of things D&D adventuring groups could do (with LOTS of good rolls). Its only the really crazy crap like the ToT that has to be examined, pulled-apart, and evaluated.
In fact, if they decided to go this route at some point (6e?), they should make his first three Drizzt novels available as free downloads, and then give-away thousands of copies of the first one at cons that year. Expensive? YES. Effective? Probably... maybe give out the comics of the stories instead (I still haven't figured-out if today's kids are still willing to read). Or maybe some brand-new Drizzt story in comic form. We need to grab their attention, and Drizzt's our 'poster boy' (like it or not). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 17:20:30
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| Of course, rebooting to the end of the 2E era -- my personal preference -- preserves a lot of the novels, and still keeps things before they went off the rails. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 18:09:31
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Which is probably why they will never do the reboot - too many of us disagree on where it 'should' be. I only say the OGB because its 'pristine'. It was perfect onto itself. As the years passed and more was poured on top of it, it became diluted (with both good and bad).
I just think the 1st big 'shark jump' they did was the ToT, and I would really like to start prior to that. Maybe re-do it, but in a more... sensible.. way.
On the other hand, we could have our cake and eat it to - I'd like to see some of the RW derivations swept under the rug - a new ToT could do that. Keep the OGB as-is, and then create a new FRA (and multiple novels) that describes a ToT wherein the interloper-gods are all destroyed, and certain cultures vastly changed by that. If we compare this to another popular IP reboot - Star Trek - the only TV show that remained unchanged was the prequel, Enterprise, because it takes place before the original series. Thus, the OGB would be like Enterprise - a glimpse into the past few decades before everything changed.
Hmmmmm... the final episode of Enterprise had it where the entire series was just a holodek tape being watched by two crew-members from ST:tNG. So now I'm not sure - that episode could not have happened, but what about the rest? I need to join a ST forum... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2017 01:42:33 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 22:04:29
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you should go look up St: discovery....
yeah me too... thoughI, on STO... so |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2017 : 22:10:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is probably why they will never do the reboot - too many of us disagree on where it 'should' be. I only say the OGB because its 'pristine'. It was perfect onto itself. As the years passed and more was poured on top of it, it became diluted (with both good and bad).
I just think the 1st big 'shark jump' they did was the ToT, and I would really like to start prior to that. Maybe re-do it, but in a more... sensible.. way.
On the other hand, we could have our cake and eat it to - I'd like to see some of the RW derivations swept under the rug - a new ToT could do that. Keep the OGB as-is, and then create a new FRA (and multiple novels) that describes a ToT wherein the interlopers gods are all destroyed, and certain cultures vastly changed by that. If we compare this to another popular IP reboot - Star Trek - the only TV show that remained unchained was the prequel, Enterprise, because it takes place before the original series. Thus, the OGB would be like Enterprise - a glimpse into the past few decades before everything changed.
Hmmmmm... the final episode of Enterprise had it where the entire series was just a holodek tape being watched by two crew-members from ST:tNG. So now I'm not sure - that episode could not have happened, but what about the rest? I need to join a ST forum...
Don't forget that the entire series of TNG and much of DS9 and Vger is all part of Picard's / Q's time loop that turns back upon itself at the end of that series. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 01:55:07
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Yeah, but that had more of a 'it all still happened/happens' feel to it, where as the final episode of Enterprise made you think that show may have all been a 'dramatization' of known events (which would explain the few continuity gaffs that slipped-in).
I had actually sent an idea/pitch to Rodenberry years ago, for anew show right around the time DS:9 was ending. Never heard back from the pr... guy.
I wanted the show to appeal to 'young people' (sound familiar?), so I wanted a Starfleet: Academy show with younger actors, and it would have had some from some of the other series (for example, Sulu was commandant of the Academy in the VG's, so use him in the show), like some of those kids aboard Enterprise and DS:9 (and maybe have Will Wheaton as a 'young teacher'). It could have all sorts of cool cameos. But primarily it would have been like Beverly Hills 90210 meets Star Trek, so you'd have the usual 'teen growing pain' problems on a back-drop of exploring the galaxy (special students get assigned to a 'school ship' by the end of the first season, taking us further out).
Worf's son could have been a student, so we could have had Michael Dorn cameos, etc. I think it would have been neat, and maybe got the younger folks interested in ST (my four boys never liked the show - too cerebral). Plus we could have seen more 'planetside' type stories - what the Federation is actually like, rather than just hearing about it all the time.
Ah well, now Rodenberry's dead. Maybe I could pitch it to his widow.
Ummmm... and Blackstaff stuff. I had to say something about it... (yeah, I know, I'm not even trying LOL)
But honestly, I wish they'd just leave Khelben alone - he deserves his 'peace'. Let the personality in the staff be something akin to a soul gem matrix. Of course, if they reboot to 1e/2e we could still have Khelben (and we could also have the REAL Khelben come back from Greyhawk and take his place). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2017 01:59:19 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 03:11:29
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Here's Steven Schend's views on the spirit templates vs souls things, from way back in the "Blackstaff Tower - Chapter 20 - 27 & Epilogue" thread of 2008:
quote:
For all intents and purposes, they seem to be spirits/ghosts, but in actuality, they are copies of full personalities and memory templates but NOT the souls/essences.
It'd be too evil to have every former Blackstaff denied their afterlife rewards by tying their souls to the tower. Especially Khelben.
This is of course, as Steven himself was always quick to clarify, only a statement of the author's intent - and for better or worse, not canon unless explicitly stated in published material (or said by Ed). Of course, for many this trumps new canon, so I thought it would be of interest to people here.
I'm posting it in the hope that, if the new designers aren't aware of this intent, they might - just MIGHT - stumble across this quote here and incorporate it into whatever their plans are. To be honest, I hope that they're already aware of it... after all, Ed himself worked the first hints of this into Death Masks and was obviously in discussions with the design team over what was happening in Waterdeep at the time of that book (hence the cloud giant appearance etc).
I fear that discussions on these boards may have scared off any designers left working in FR, but I still hold a hope that they lurk, looking to use ideas and incorporate lore... after all, I'm not too sure there's been too many direct contradictions in the 5e lore before this one, if any. Sure, reset buttons have been pushed and that's not going to please everyone (impossible) - but I'm hoping Khelben's story will be better elucidated in published works than it was in the podcast. The character is iconic to the setting and certainly deserves the best treatment. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 17 Jan 2017 03:31:44 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2017 : 12:35:29
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Also found this interesting nugget amongst my bingeing on Mr. Schend's old posts... the thread in question was arguing the position back and forth whether or not Khelben should have a "fall from grace"...
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Khelben's suffered, but I'll agree that he might be setting himself up for a fall, if only because we all know what goeth before one, and he's got that in spades...
Admittedly the main thrust of the post was more "Khelben's suffered enough", but the thought was there in 2005, during the writing of Blackstaff...
I'm mostly thinking myself around in circles now. Will just have to be patient and sees what happens. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 16:26:19
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| Kelemvor must have just stuck a giant revolving door in front of the Crystal Spire before raiding his predecessor's booze stash. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 17:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, but that had more of a 'it all still happened/happens' feel to it, where as the final episode of Enterprise made you think that show may have all been a 'dramatization' of known events (which would explain the few continuity gaffs that slipped-in).
I had actually sent an idea/pitch to Rodenberry years ago, for anew show right around the time DS:9 was ending. Never heard back from the pr... guy.
I wanted the show to appeal to 'young people' (sound familiar?), so I wanted a Starfleet: Academy show with younger actors, and it would have had some from some of the other series (for example, Sulu was commandant of the Academy in the VG's, so use him in the show), like some of those kids aboard Enterprise and DS:9 (and maybe have Will Wheaton as a 'young teacher'). It could have all sorts of cool cameos. But primarily it would have been like Beverly Hills 90210 meets Star Trek, so you'd have the usual 'teen growing pain' problems on a back-drop of exploring the galaxy (special students get assigned to a 'school ship' by the end of the first season, taking us further out).
Worf's son could have been a student, so we could have had Michael Dorn cameos, etc. I think it would have been neat, and maybe got the younger folks interested in ST (my four boys never liked the show - too cerebral). Plus we could have seen more 'planetside' type stories - what the Federation is actually like, rather than just hearing about it all the time.
Ah well, now Rodenberry's dead. Maybe I could pitch it to his widow.
Ummmm... and Blackstaff stuff. I had to say something about it... (yeah, I know, I'm not even trying LOL)
But honestly, I wish they'd just leave Khelben alone - he deserves his 'peace'. Let the personality in the staff be something akin to a soul gem matrix. Of course, if they reboot to 1e/2e we could still have Khelben (and we could also have the REAL Khelben come back from Greyhawk and take his place).
ummmmm. I'm not sure but I think she's dead too. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2017 : 17:41:37
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| Wasn't this confirmed since 4th edition? I recall having read a Dragon Magazine article that said all the souls of past Blackstaffs were in the staff... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Jan 2017 17:42:54 |
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BIG Blackstaff lore in latest Dragon Talk podcast
